The Ur-Quan Masters Home Page Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
May 25, 2017, 04:26:17 pm
Home Help Search Login Register
News: UQM development migrated from Subversion to Git

+  The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum
|-+  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release
| |-+  Starbase Café (Moderators: Michael Martin, fossil, Lukipela)
| | |-+  What do you guys think about these tax percentages?
« previous next »
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 Print
Author Topic: What do you guys think about these tax percentages?  (Read 917 times)
Zanthius
*Many bubbles*
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 134



View Profile
Re: What do you guys think about these tax percentages?
« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2016, 12:37:54 am »

why not education and welfare?

Because they are so central to a welfare-state that they have their own sections?
Logged
Scalare
Frungy champion
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 61



View Profile
Re: What do you guys think about these tax percentages?
« Reply #31 on: December 26, 2016, 01:25:00 am »

why not education and welfare?

Because they are so central to a welfare-state that they have their own sections?
So they DO get subsidized?
Logged
onpon666
Frungy champion
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 56


Sharing is good.


View Profile WWW
Re: What do you guys think about these tax percentages?
« Reply #32 on: December 26, 2016, 01:59:22 am »

So you think it is better that Donald Trump decides what your taxes should be invested in?

Surely you must be joking. The President has basically zero authority on how money is spent. That's up to Congress to decide.

Quote
I think similar concerns were raised when women's right to vote was introduced. People probably generalized women (like you generalize rich people) into something ill-intentioned.

You're comparing apples to oranges (genders are not classes, levels of wealth are), and voting is not the same as restricting what your share of tax can be used for at all.

Quote
Not all tax payers are complete retards. If the roads and infrastructure in a society is very bad, lots of people will probably realize that their taxes should be invested in roads and infrastructure. Similarly, if the education is very bad in a society, lots of people probably realize that their taxes should be used on education.

Yes, but the wealthy have an option that is much better for them: just spend the money directly on private improvements, e.g. private roads and private schools. From their own perspective, the money is much better spent this way because it's necessarily going toward the improvements they need.

I think this is the biggest point you're missing. No, rich people are not idiots. That's why if they have a choice for where their taxes go, they will direct their taxes to whatever benefits them the most, and use private spending for anything else. Or, as they do today, they would simply use loopholes to avoid paying taxes altogether.

Quote
healthy food, investigative journalism, and environmental-friendly technologies.

That's not at all what I thought you meant. When I see "subsidies", I think of things like the corn subsidy that currently exists, basically paying farmers to grow corn so that corn can be cheaper. This is a trick to boost certain sectors of the economy.
Logged

Scalare
Frungy champion
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 61



View Profile
Re: What do you guys think about these tax percentages?
« Reply #33 on: December 26, 2016, 02:00:10 am »

Subsidy means a different thing to each and every one of us. Since we do have different subsidies in each country Tongue.
Logged
Zanthius
*Many bubbles*
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 134



View Profile
Re: What do you guys think about these tax percentages?
« Reply #34 on: December 26, 2016, 11:02:26 am »

Surely you must be joking. The President has basically zero authority on how money is spent. That's up to Congress to decide.

But how much power the president has over the congress, doesn't that depend on the majority party affiliation in the congress? Now that you have a republican president and a republican majority in the congress, isn't it likely that the president will have much more power over the congress?

I am also somewhat confused why you think this congress is better suited to decide which sectors should get funding, than the tax payers themselves. Many of these congress-members are surely just as despicable as the rich guys you dislike so much. The group of tax payers is also much larger than the group of congress-members, so it is probably much easier to lobby the group of congress-members than to lobby the group of all tax payers. I do however agree that the tax payers shouldn't be allowed to decide what 100% of their taxes should be used for. Maybe the president/congress should be allowed to decide 50%, while the tax payers should be allowed to decide 50%...

Yes, but the wealthy have an option that is much better for them: just spend the money directly on private improvements, e.g. private roads and private schools. From their own perspective, the money is much better spent this way because it's necessarily going toward the improvements they need.

I think you misunderstand a bit. I don't want the tax payers to be allowed to use their taxes on private roads for themselves and guards for themselves. The tax money has to be spent on public sectors...


Edit: Based on your comments I have rewritten parts of this section, and included a better description of what the subsidies include.

« Last Edit: December 26, 2016, 12:26:16 pm by Zanthius » Logged
onpon666
Frungy champion
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 56


Sharing is good.


View Profile WWW
Re: What do you guys think about these tax percentages?
« Reply #35 on: December 26, 2016, 02:49:31 pm »

But how much power the president has over the congress, doesn't that depend on the majority party affiliation in the congress?

No, the President just doesn't have any power over them. Only influence by way of having a voice that lots of people pay attention to. If the President had actual power over Congress, that would completely destroy the separation of powers in the government.

Quote
Now that you have a republican president and a republican majority in the congress, isn't it likely that the president will have much more power over the congress?

No. The only thing it means is that since the President is a Republican, bills the Republicans want that get passed through Congress are basically guaranteed to get signed into law.

Quote
I am also somewhat confused why you think this congress is better suited to decide which sectors should get funding, than the tax payers themselves.

If you think that Congress is unfit for this task, then you should be advocating for no taxes at all so that individuals can donate or invest their money where they want. The whole point of taxes is to fund the activities of the government, and the activities of the government are controlled by Congress. It makes no sense to give the government money, but then require it to use that money for a particular purpose.

Quote
Many of these congress-members are surely just as despicable as the rich guys you dislike so much.

But members of Congress are accountable, because allocating the budget is actually their job. By the way, I never said that I dislike rich people. I've only been describing how they can be expected to act.

Quote
The group of tax payers is also much larger than the group of congress-members, so it is probably much easier to lobby the group of congress-members than to lobby the group of all tax payers.

So what? The whole problem with having tax payers decide where their taxes go is that it completely defeats the purpose of taxes.

Quote
I do however agree that the tax payers shouldn't be allowed to decide what 100% of their taxes should be used for. Maybe the president/congress should be allowed to decide 50%, while the tax payers should be allowed to decide 50%...

Then here's a novel idea: just cut taxes by 50%. Or rather, don't raise them to 90% in the first place. If you're paying 10% of your income in tax, that remaining 90% is what you can use to allocate to causes you want to support.

Quote
I think you misunderstand a bit. I don't want the tax payers to be allowed to use their taxes on private roads for themselves and guards for themselves. The tax money has to be spent on public sectors...

No, I don't misunderstand. If the rich can choose where to spend their taxes, it's in their interest to choose to have their taxes spent wherever it will benefit them most. So they will not choose to have it spent on infrastructure if there is an option that benefits them personally more, because they have the capability to make private improvements where they need it. Actually, given how you define subsidies, I think that "infrastructure" would be the most likely thing that the rich would choose out of your categories, so it's police, health care, education, and welfare that would be neglected.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2016, 03:41:56 pm by onpon666 » Logged

Zanthius
*Many bubbles*
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 134



View Profile
Re: What do you guys think about these tax percentages?
« Reply #36 on: December 26, 2016, 03:40:30 pm »

Then here's a novel idea: just cut taxes by 50%. Or rather, don't raise them to 90% in the first place. If you're paying 10% of your income in tax, that remaining 90% is what you can use to allocate to causes you want to support.

That sounds like a horrible idea, because that would continue to increase the wealth gap between the rich and the poor. It is a big difference, because if you invest your money in buying something, you own that then. Like for example if I invest my money in a private health care company, I earn money from them in the future. On the other hand, if I use my tax money to invest in public health care, I do not own anything in the public health care sector, and I don't earn anything from that in the future, except for the benefit of having a better health care system in my society.

No, I don't misunderstand. If the rich can choose where to spend their taxes, it's in their interest to choose to have their taxes spent wherever it will benefit them most. So they will not choose to have it spent on infrastructure if there is an option that benefits them personally more, because they have the capability to make private improvements where they need it. Actually, given how you define subsidies, I think that "infrastructure" would be the most likely thing that the rich would choose out of your categories, so it's police, health care, education, and welfare that would be neglected.

You seem to think that people are like simple computer algorithms that always do the same under the same conditions. But people are huge neuronal networks that often behave differently under the same conditions, and are  largely controlled by emotions, not logic. If the infrastructure in a country is bad, lots of people will invest their taxes in it, for sure. But if the infrastructure is very good, I would be much more scared that it will get underfunded. And that is one of the reasons why I don't want people to be allowed to decide what 100% of their taxes are used for.
Logged
onpon666
Frungy champion
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 56


Sharing is good.


View Profile WWW
Re: What do you guys think about these tax percentages?
« Reply #37 on: December 26, 2016, 03:51:25 pm »

That sounds like a horrible idea, because that would continue to increase the wealth gap between the rich and the poor.

It's not an idea, it's the status quo of literally everywhere. No one in the history of the world has had a 90% tax for anyone.

You're making a very simple issue (how much people should be taxed) into something needlessly complex, in what seems to be an effort to convince people who want lower taxes to support higher taxes. You are also contradicting yourself. If rich people would gladly support public schooling or welfare or health care or whatever when it doesn't benefit them, then they can donate the money directly.
Logged

Zanthius
*Many bubbles*
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 134



View Profile
Re: What do you guys think about these tax percentages?
« Reply #38 on: December 26, 2016, 04:00:00 pm »

You're making a very simple issue (how much people should be taxed) into something needlessly complex, in what seems to be an effort to convince people who want lower taxes to support higher taxes. You are also contradicting yourself. If rich people would gladly support public schooling or welfare or health care or whatever when it doesn't benefit them, then they can donate the money directly.

I don't think most rich people gladly would donate lots of their income to public health care, public educations, and welfare. I think that if they had to donate lots of their income to one of those sectors and got to choose which one, they would be more happy with donating to  some sectors than to others. I would for example be much more happy if I could donate to education rather than to the military.

It is extremely important for a government to be well synchronized with the population. That is why we have democracies, and that is the main reason why I want tax payers to be involved in what their taxes are used on.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2016, 04:25:09 pm by Zanthius » Logged
onpon666
Frungy champion
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 56


Sharing is good.


View Profile WWW
Re: What do you guys think about these tax percentages?
« Reply #39 on: December 26, 2016, 04:56:59 pm »

If a rich person has a say over what his $2,000,000 go toward, and a poor person has a say over what his $0 go toward, then the rich person has more say. That's not democracy. The way we are supposed to influence the government is by voting, not by telling the representatives we voted for what they are allowed to do with the tax dollars we sent them.
Logged

Zanthius
*Many bubbles*
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 134



View Profile
Re: What do you guys think about these tax percentages?
« Reply #40 on: December 26, 2016, 05:59:00 pm »

If a rich person has a say over what his $2,000,000 go toward, and a poor person has a say over what his $0 go toward, then the rich person has more say. That's not democracy. The way we are supposed to influence the government is by voting, not by telling the representatives we voted for what they are allowed to do with the tax dollars we sent them.

Ok. But if I am paying a ginormous amount of taxes, and I know that a lot of it is going to something I am against (for example the military, and a war in Vietnam, Iraq or Afghanistan), then I won't be very happy either.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2016, 06:03:51 pm by Zanthius » Logged
Scalare
Frungy champion
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 61



View Profile
Re: What do you guys think about these tax percentages?
« Reply #41 on: December 26, 2016, 10:46:29 pm »

If a rich person has a say over what his $2,000,000 go toward, and a poor person has a say over what his $0 go toward, then the rich person has more say. That's not democracy. The way we are supposed to influence the government is by voting, not by telling the representatives we voted for what they are allowed to do with the tax dollars we sent them.

Ok. But if I am paying a ginormous amount of taxes, and I know that a lot of it is going to something I am against (for example the military, and a war in Vietnam, Iraq or Afghanistan), then I won't be very happy either.
The richest in the world gain huge profits from these wars.
Logged
Zanthius
*Many bubbles*
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 134



View Profile
Re: What do you guys think about these tax percentages?
« Reply #42 on: December 26, 2016, 11:15:42 pm »

The richest in the world gain huge profits from these wars.

Well, the people owning weapon-manufacturing companies might profit from war, but if they choose to invest their taxes in the military they are basically just funding themselves.

The problem is for all the people that don't have money in weapon-manufacturing companies, but are forced to donate to them through taxes. If I could choose not to donate to the military, then I wouldn't need to sponsor their immoral weapon-manufacturing companies.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2016, 11:17:15 pm by Zanthius » Logged
Scalare
Frungy champion
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 61



View Profile
Re: What do you guys think about these tax percentages?
« Reply #43 on: December 26, 2016, 11:18:22 pm »

not just weapon manufacturers, oil companies too. and banks financing it all. the rabbit hole is much deeper than you think.
Logged
onpon666
Frungy champion
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 56


Sharing is good.


View Profile WWW
Re: What do you guys think about these tax percentages?
« Reply #44 on: December 27, 2016, 05:20:26 am »

People in general don't want to pay taxes period. It has little to do with being against what the government is spending it for and no one is going to be happy to pay higher taxes based on the fact that they can dictate where they get spent.
Logged

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!