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Author Topic: The meaning of life  (Read 678 times)
Zanthius
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Re: The meaning of life
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2017, 05:50:26 pm »

The meaning of life is that there is a dragon on your fridge trying to eat you when you reach for the orange juice in it?

That sounds much more like something you would experience on scopolamine . This is also what I hate about the way people often talk about drugs. We are very well aware of that we shouldn't generalize people. That is politically incorrect! But people generalize drugs all the time, although they interact with completely different receptor-systems in the body. Psilocybin and scopolamin are as different as cats and dogs. Yeah, they are all animals, but all animals are not the same. Nor are all drugs the same.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 05:57:22 pm by Zanthius » Logged
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Re: The meaning of life
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2017, 06:06:56 pm »

The meaning of life is that there is a dragon on your fridge trying to eat you when you reach for the orange juice in it?

That sounds much more like something you would experience on scopolamine . This is also what I hate about the way people often talk about drugs. We are very well aware of that we shouldn't generalize people. That is politically incorrect! But people generalize drugs all the time, although they interact with completely different receptor-systems in the body. Psilocybin and scopolamin are as different as cats and dogs. Yeah, they are all animals, but all animals are not the same. Nor are all drugs the same.

So the french guy who jumped out of a hotel in holland after consuming magic mushrooms and thinking he could fly was really high on scopolamine? Thanks for the explanation, you just helped the dutch govt who illegalized the selling of said mushrooms by showing their mistake Smiley.
Have you consumed these mushrooms ever? Or truffles, as the legally sold product is called in holland now? (which is basically fungus living underground with the same active ingredients as the mushrooms).
If you want, I could point you in the direction of magic mushrooms growth kits. These are legal still. Most psylocybin-active products are heavy on the visuals, not so much on the psychic effect.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 06:14:11 pm by Scalare » Logged
Zanthius
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Re: The meaning of life
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2017, 06:09:36 pm »

So the french guy who jumperd out of a hotel in holland after consuming magic mushrooms and thinking he could fly was really high on scopolamine?

Ehh... if he died, how do you know he jumped out of the window because he thought he could fly? Maybe he was a mentally disturbed person that wanted to commit suicide. Maybe we should start to blame alcohol for all the suicides that occur while people are intoxicated with alcoholic beverages?  In your country, there are MUCH MORE deaths related to alcoholic beverages, than to magic mushrooms.

With psychedelics, it is a general tendency for people to blame the drugs for any malevolent behavior that might occur. But with alcoholic beverages, we usually blame the individuals.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 06:13:26 pm by Zanthius » Logged
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Re: The meaning of life
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2017, 06:17:15 pm »

So the french guy who jumperd out of a hotel in holland after consuming magic mushrooms and thinking he could fly was really high on scopolamine?

Ehh... if he died, how do you know he jumped out of the window because he thought he could fly? Maybe he was a mentally disturbed person that wanted to commit suicide. Maybe we should start to blame alcohol for all the suicides that occur while people are intoxicated with alcoholic beverages?  In your country, there are MUCH MORE deaths related to alcoholic beverages, than to magic mushrooms.

With psychedelics, it is a general tendency for people to blame the drugs for any malevolent behavior that might occur. But with alcoholic beverages, we usually blame the individuals.

Maybe this, maybe that. You think that we are a bunch of dumbasses that don't do any forensic research and hear witnesses after someone dies in such a way?

The fact is, quite a lot of people experience bad trips during their trips. Which is no problem to control once you have the right mindset and setting and someone watching you. But it is still something to consider.
That's why I asked for your personal experience. Could you share it with us?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 06:21:48 pm by Scalare » Logged
Zanthius
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Re: The meaning of life
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2017, 06:23:16 pm »

Maybe this, maybe that. You think that we are a bunch of dumbasses that don't do any forensic research and hear witnesses after someone dies in such a way?

I don't know if there were any witnesses. With lots of suicides there aren't any witnesses. And even if there were witnesses, people cannot necessarily be trusted, especially if they were intoxicated themselves. I don't think anybody really knows what goes on inside  the head of another person.

And even if he "thought he could fly", and that's why he jumped out of the window, I would put 95% of the blame on the individual. In that case,  he probably had psychotic / schizophrenic tendencies in his normal state of being.

The fact is, quite a lot of people experience bad trips during their trips. Which is no problem to control once you have the right mindset and setting and someone watching you. But it is still something to consider.
That's why I asked for your personal experience. Could you share it with us?

Sure. I have had lots of good and bad trips when I was younger. But I don't necessarily think I have ever lost so much touch with reality that I believed I could jump out of a window. Bad trips are usually much more about seeing "bad things" that you kinda are used to ignore in your normal state of being. For example, my friends are assholes to me, but I ignore that in my normal state of being to protect my psychological well-being. While high on magic mushrooms, I might realize what assholes they are, and that might give me a very bad feeling. You kinda remove psychological filters with 5-HT2A receptor agonists (especially mushrooms).

I actually remember once when I ate magic mushrooms while I was together with my parents (they didn't know). I remember that I felt extremely sad, because for the first time I realized what an unhappy marriage they had. I had always ignored that before.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 06:40:16 pm by Zanthius » Logged
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Re: The meaning of life
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2017, 06:39:17 pm »

Maybe this, maybe that. You think that we are a bunch of dumbasses that don't do any forensic research and hear witnesses after someone dies in such a way?

I don't know if there were any witnesses. With lots of suicides there aren't any witnesses. And even if there were witnesses, people cannot necessarily be trusted, especially if they were intoxicated themselves. I don't think anybody really knows what goes on inside  the head of another person.

And even if he "thought he could fly", and that's why he jumped out of the window, I would put 95% of the blame on the individual. In that case,  he probably had psychotic / schizophrenic tendencies in his normal state of being.


I agree.. But how dumb can you be if you think that I am talking out of my ass here and haven't read the related news articles and research back then. I don't agree with the ban at all. But when you disregard what happened you are putting people in danger.

The fact is, quite a lot of people experience bad trips during their trips. Which is no problem to control once you have the right mindset and setting and someone watching you. But it is still something to consider.
That's why I asked for your personal experience. Could you share it with us?

Sure. I have had lots of good and bad trips when I was younger. But I don't necessarily think I have ever lost so much touch with reality, that I believed I could jump out of a window. Bad trips are usually much more about seeing "bad things" that you kinda are used to ignore in your normal state of being. For example, my friends are assholes to me, but I ignore that in my normal state of being to protect my psychological well-being. While high on magic mushrooms, I might realize what assholes they are, and that might give me a very bad feeling.

[/quote]

I have never had any bad trip with it as well. But I understand that people who are more control freaks than I have had really bad experiences with it, some of my friends as well.
About bad trips with psylocybin:

Quote
A majority of the participants — 62 percent — said their bad trip was among the top 10 most psychologically difficult situations of their lives. Eleven percent said it was their number one most difficult experience.


Quote

The study also demonstrated that bad trips can have severe consequences. Eleven percent of the participants said they put themselves or others at risk of physical harm, while 2.6 percent reported behaving in a physically aggressive or violent manner. This was associated with longer, more difficult experiences in which the participant had little physical comfort or social support.

Source: http://www.psypost.org/2016/08/study-bad-trips-from-magic-mushrooms-often-result-in-an-improved-sense-of-personal-well-being-44684

So yeah, if you're a tourist you really should watch out doing drugs in a country that is more liberal. Get yourself educated.
Finally the whole reason I agitate against your suggestion is that I don't think the risk is worth the reward. If you're looking for a mystical experience with way less risk for bad trips you should try something else like LSD or MXE, or even MDMA.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 06:48:04 pm by Scalare » Logged
Zanthius
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Re: The meaning of life
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2017, 06:52:32 pm »

Finally the whole reason I agitate against your suggestion is that I don't think the risk is worth the reward. If you're looking for a mystical experience with way less risk for bad trips you should try something else like LSD or MXE, or even MDMA.

You don't think that if people have very strong psychological filters, they might benefit even more from removing those filters? I mean, a coworker of my wife is often treated really badly by her friends, but she is a very positive person and kinda ignores it. Still, wouldn't it maybe be better for her to get some new friends? But as long as she ignores how badly they are treating her, she doesn't necessarily try to get herself new friends.

I think this is very common. When we "ignore" something with our psychological filters, it actually harms us in the long run.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 06:54:04 pm by Zanthius » Logged
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Re: The meaning of life
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2017, 07:05:27 pm »

Finally the whole reason I agitate against your suggestion is that I don't think the risk is worth the reward. If you're looking for a mystical experience with way less risk for bad trips you should try something else like LSD or MXE, or even MDMA.

You don't think that if people have very strong psychological filters, they might benefit even more from removing those filters? I mean, a coworker of my wife is often treated really badly by her friends, but she is a very positive person and kinda ignores it. Still, wouldn't it maybe be better for her to get some new friends? But as long as she ignores how badly they are treating her, she doesn't necessarily try to get herself new friends.

I think this is very common. When we "ignore" something with our psychological filters, it actually harms us in the long run.

I'm just saying that research has shown that psylocybin is more likely to cause bad trips and more likely to have people put themselves in a harmful situation than other drugs.
But by all means, make another graph about it so your own personal opinion becomes more scientific?
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Re: The meaning of life
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2017, 07:11:35 pm »

I'm just saying that research has shown that psylocybin is more likely to cause bad trips and more likely to have people put themselves in a harmful situation than other drugs.

I know they are more likely to give people bad trips than most other drugs, but I don't necessarily think that is bad for people in the long run. Compared to MDMA for example, I also think they give people MUCH MORE introspective insight.

But by all means, make another graph about it so your own personal opinion becomes more scientific?

From the article you linked to:

Quote
New research suggests a bad trip isn’t always bad. About 84 percent of drug users who have experienced a “bad trip” from hallucinogenic mushrooms say they benefited from the psychologically difficult situation.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 07:13:47 pm by Zanthius » Logged
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Re: The meaning of life
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2017, 07:38:13 pm »

I'm just saying that research has shown that psylocybin is more likely to cause bad trips and more likely to have people put themselves in a harmful situation than other drugs.

I know they are more likely to give people bad trips than most other drugs, but I don't necessarily think that is bad for people in the long run. Compared to MDMA for example, I also think they give people MUCH MORE introspective insight.

As already said a small percentage of those bad trips result in the person putting himself in harmful situations, as research has shown.

But by all means, make another graph about it so your own personal opinion becomes more scientific?

From the article you linked to:

Quote
New research suggests a bad trip isn’t always bad. About 84 percent of drug users who have experienced a “bad trip” from hallucinogenic mushrooms say they benefited from the psychologically difficult situation.
[/quote]

As said, that reward is not worth the risk when a small percentage has put himself in harmful situations due to it.
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Zanthius
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Re: The meaning of life
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2017, 07:45:58 pm »

As said, that reward is not worth the risk when a small percentage has put himself in harmful situations due to it.

You need to multiply the probability of putting others/self at risk during a bad trip, with the probability of having a bad trip in the first place. Say for example if the probability of having a bad trip is 20%, and of the people having a bad trip around 2% put themselves/others at risk, then it is 0.2 * 0.02 = 0.004, or 0.4% probability.

So you compare this risk to the risk of putting self/others at risk in other aspects of life, for example with alcohol intoxication, driving a car, using a boat, riding a horse, etc. You will find that we are doing tons of other things which are much more likely of putting self/others at risk.

We cannot necessarily ban all things which have some probability of putting self/others at risk. That would at least create an extremely boring society, where the population would be rather overprotected and dumb.

Also, the probability of having a bad trip in the first place, can be reduced a lot by: 1) ensuring that you are not taking too much, 2) being in a place where you feel comfortable, 3) having a stable psychology.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 07:59:31 pm by Zanthius » Logged
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Re: The meaning of life
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2017, 08:11:22 pm »

As said, that reward is not worth the risk when a small percentage has put himself in harmful situations due to it.

for example if

What do you mean by 'for example if'. Did you start this thread by not reading the heavily available scientific research about it and get acquainted with the actual percentages in those studies?
Why do that? Spending an hour on google saves a lot of harm for people acting upon your advice..
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Re: The meaning of life
« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2017, 08:15:08 pm »

What do you mean by 'for example if'. Did you start this thread by not reading the heavily available scientific research about it and get acquainted with the actual percentages in those studies?

So what? Do you think all studies arrive at the same percentages? Then you are in for a surprise. Most studies on recreational drugs, pharmaceuticals, or nutrition arrive at different likelihoods and percentages. That is one of the reasons why we had that entire other thread about nutrition.

Also, the likelihood of having a bad trip probably also varies a lot  between countries and cultures. For example, maybe the French people have a higher likelihood than you guys, for getting a bad trip.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 08:20:41 pm by Zanthius » Logged
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Re: The meaning of life
« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2017, 08:25:29 pm »

Also, the probability of having a bad trip in the first place, can be reduced a lot by: 1) ensuring that you are not taking too much, 2) being in a place where you feel comfortable, 3) having a stable psychology.

1) By taking less you just get some close eyed visuals, nothing more. The mystic experience you talk about is then never there.
2) Agreed
3) People with stable psychology don't really experience much positive effects as much as people who need a 'rewiring of the brain' to feel happy again.

About MXE. It does the rewiring way better. Whereas psylocybin and mdma make you relativate more easily (and be more understanding about people/problems from the past) MXE makes all those problems less important in your head, with permanent effects. And it also greatly improves your memory and especially if you have a creative job it could help you become more open minded to things you would normally not think of. Qua negative effects it gives quite heavy auditory hallucinations, if that is not your thing. But if you are a musician it really could help in writing better music, since you're better able to distinguish different instruments in existing songs and judge how they relate. Another negative is that it really amplifies the effects of alcohol to an unhealthy situation. So never combine it with alcohol.
2CB (c, d, e, f, getting stronger and with longer trips as they go) has those effects as well along with heavy visuals. You know the effect when you smell something you are reminded of the place where you smelled it? Or when you hear music you are reminded of the time when it was your favorite s ong? 2CB really heightens those effects, though the visuals are hard to handle for some people. Both chemicals are very hard to dose by the way so take care where you get it and get a good scale and test a small amount before you take more.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 08:29:30 pm by Scalare » Logged
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Re: The meaning of life
« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2017, 08:26:45 pm »

What do you mean by 'for example if'. Did you start this thread by not reading the heavily available scientific research about it and get acquainted with the actual percentages in those studies?

So what? Do you think all studies arrive at the same percentages? Then you are in for a surprise. Most studies on recreational drugs, pharmaceuticals, or nutrition arrive at different likelihoods and percentages. That is one of the reasons why we had that entire other thread about nutrition.

Also, the likelihood of having a bad trip probably also varies a lot  between countries and cultures. For example, maybe the French people have a higher likelihood than you guys, for getting a bad trip.


The people I know who have had such a mystical experience (most of them on LSD and MXE and MDMA, never on mushrooms) are generally more open minded and less stubborn in such discussions.
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