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Author Topic: Age related education  (Read 2005 times)
Krulle
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Re: Age related education
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2017, 09:41:29 pm »

What exactly are the chances of people carrying around microphones all day so they can talk to everyone in broken German or French or whatever, by connecting to the Internet and querying Google for a translation one sentence at a time (because it does have to be no more than one sentence at a time to account for different sentence orderings and such)?
<cough>SmartPhones<cough>
We already do. Not me personally, but about 99% of all my colleagues.
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Julie.chan
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Re: Age related education
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2017, 05:23:18 am »

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I work in IT and have recently seen the advances in that aspect, I can even reproduce some of the more advanced stuff at home.

My points are about the physical aspects, not the programming aspects. Of course it's possible, in principle, to make an A.I. that can interpret and translate a language as well as a human can. I personally doubt this will happen in 10 years, but that's not the main point. The main point is that regardless of how perfect you make this, you still have these physical problems which cannot be solved. And the secondary point is that most the progress that has been made on machine translation has been on SaaSS translators, which means that they could be shut down, gone forever, at the whim of some company controlling it, and with it, all progress made on it is lost and has to be done all over again. It would be entirely foolish to depend on that. The only machine translators that you can reliably depend on are libre ones, and those are in their infancy. I don't even think the one I checked a couple years ago could translate languages other than Spanish, though I don't remember for sure.

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<cough>SmartPhones<cough>

Touche, but that still doesn't solve the convenience issue. Realistically, you and the person you're speaking to would both have to wear headphones, or else you both would have to talk very quietly directly into the microphone, so that the listener doesn't get a headache from trying to listen to one voice over the other (or suffer from ear damage from turning the volume up really loud to compensate). You also have to have roughly a 5-10 second delay, or even longer if your sentences get longer, and you would have to eat up your data plan as well.
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Zanthius
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Re: Age related education
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2017, 08:09:23 am »

And no matter how good a translation is, it is still a translation. Listening to Italian music in Italian , is not the same as listening to a translated version of the song. Reading German poetry in German is not necessarily  the same as reading a translation no matter how good the translation is. We get a richer experience by listening to music and reading poetry in its original language.

Languages are not all the same. They vary in phonemes and words. Eskimos are said to have 50 different words for dfferent types of snow. All of those words would translate into snow in english. Or you would need to use many more words to convey the meaning, and even then some information is probably lost.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 08:20:44 am by Zanthius » Logged
Scalare
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Re: Age related education
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2017, 05:59:26 pm »

And no matter how good a translation is, it is still a translation. Listening to Italian music in Italian , is not the same as listening to a translated version of the song. Reading German poetry in German is not necessarily  the same as reading a translation no matter how good the translation is. We get a richer experience by listening to music and reading poetry in its original language.

Languages are not all the same. They vary in phonemes and words. Eskimos are said to have 50 different words for dfferent types of snow. All of those words would translate into snow in english. Or you would need to use many more words to convey the meaning, and even then some information is probably lost.
And thatś exactly why a universal translator is a good idea. So if you go to greenland you can speak to eskimo's instead of them having to revert to english to describe snow (because no way in hell are you going to learn eskimese just for your trip to greenland). You hear the original intonality with the different ways to describe snow and you learn as you go.
The same is true with what we have here in the Netherlands a lot, is subtitles at English movies. We hear the english text spoken and we see the dutch text as a translation. That way we can grasp the original subtleties and innuendo that were put in but still have something to hang on in case of non-understanding.
With german it's even more useful, because german and dutch people can understand eachother quite well while speaking their own language already, but we still revert to English in case of direct conversation. But with a universal translator we could hear the other person speak german and it would be translated to dutch, but we have also the original context in German so we can pick up on subtle words that only germans have, such as fingerspitzengefuhl and erbfeindschaft.

Also, realize that language is not just language. Language is a reflection of culture. So if a lot of Chinese people have the ability to work in the UK because of their universal translators, the UK will start to pick up more chinese words and culture becuase of it.

Furthermore, it will really make it possible for american news article and movie/series script writers to write it in much more eloquent and subtle english, becuase they don't have to take into account non-native speakers anymore. Right now a lot is being dumbed down because otherwise we wouldn't understand it.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 06:15:52 pm by Scalare » Logged
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Re: Age related education
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2017, 06:50:23 pm »

Do your research before posting such assumptions.  The reason why I came up with this whole universal translator idea is because I recently started experimenting with cmu sphinx, an open source library that seeks to accomplish/accomplishes the same thing as google/amazon service does. And given that I can quite easily use it myself as just an average programmer it shouldn't be too hard for the open source community to pick it up as well.

What if we developed a universal "translator" that could do much more than translating languages. It could give you the answer to math equations, calculate trajectories, and help you in any possible way imaginable. Your own neural network wouldn't need to develop at all then. You could just rely on the "machine" for everything. But by relying more on computers and tools, we often decrease development of ourselves.

During the 80's and 90's computers weren't as user-friendly as today, so people had to put much more effort into learning how to use them. Then they also got a better intuitive grasp of how computers work. Today, computers/tablets/phones are so user-friendly, that people barely need to learn anything in order to use them. They might also then get a less good intuitive grasp of how computers work.

A healthy neural network should have a desire to grow. Intellectual laziness is a sign of dysfunctionality.

it can grow in different aspects. The fact that I can now glue a couple of node libraries together and have an application running in the blink of an eye instead of me having to write it from the bottom up gives me more time to focus on other stuff.
You have played SC2 I assume. Now imagine if you had to learn the languages from all these 24 races before you could understand them or make yourself understood. That's 24000 hours of learning. I think the kohr-ah will have visited by then Smiley. Time that could've better been spent by decoding dataplates, researching weapon and shield tech, figuring out how to drop that damn slave shield and analysing star charts to see where the samatra is hiding (but if you prefer to spend all that time learning urquanian, be my guest).
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Sargon
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Re: Age related education
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2017, 08:21:49 pm »

I think lack of resources is a big issue. There are just not enough skilled men(women) hours(teachers) to teach that to millions of children.
Perhaps AI teachers could be a good solution.

I think school is just the least worst solution to the basic problem that parents(or other people) don't have enough time to raise their children.
I think if I had the time I would school my kids myself, I don't think school is a really good place for kids to spend so much time. It's just a solution for lack of better solutions.

Edit: Also there is a big problem in modern society that gets worse and worse.
There is a bell curve on how intelligence is distributed in the population.
The people with lower IQ have a limited number of jobs they can do.
The more technology and automation advance, the more there are groups of IQ that are left with no job they can fill.

Take a look at this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjs2gPa5sD0
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 08:27:08 pm by Sargon » Logged
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Re: Age related education
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2017, 09:14:21 pm »

Cool point Sargon about AI teachers. It is discussed here as well by some leaders of the AI scientific community (not sure if it was part 1 or 2)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZe-A2aDOgA
But the gist of what they said was that an AI could personalize itself to be the best teacher that a kid could have. There will always be gaps between how a teacher's style of teaching is compatible with how a kid is most efficiënt at learning things.
An AI could get rid of that inefficiency, personalizing itself to the student and constantly learning how to improve itself. And it can share all its knowledge about teaching with all the other AI's of the same kind in the world. And it won't suffer from burnouts or tiredness, just copy it on a device and let your kids get smart learning from an AI Smiley.
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Death 999
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Re: Age related education
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2017, 09:31:46 pm »

Yes, individual attention is very important in education, and AI could potentially do that in a way it would be ridiculously expensive to do with humans… and the AI teacher would have domain expertise in every field.

Of course, by the point we can do that, we're essentially past the prediction horizon since we can no longer confidently predict that such an AI is not super-intelligent, which would throw all the tables over.

But, 'dumb' but still moderately clever AI teaching assistants could still be fairly adaptible and useful. Without their being actually smarter than the students, I wouldn't want them to be the primary teacher.
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Sargon
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Re: Age related education
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2017, 10:49:39 pm »

You still need kids to socialize with other kids or to have emotional support from adults, this AI cannot provide you.

However, I think school is bad because it force you to bundle whom you socialize with and who you learn with in the same class.
Because of lack of resources kids are forced to be in the same class with other kids they might not get along with.
I didn't like school as a kid, I think kids could be really mean to each other, some kids are just mean from a very young age. Might be also because their parents are mean. And anyway, I don't think it's natural for most Humans, including kids, to like everyone.
I mean, I think my issue as a kid is that I thought of everyone should like everyone.
I don't think kids should be forced to be in the same class with kids they don't like.
So separation of socializing time, choosing your friends, and studying would be more ideal than just classic school.
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Zanthius
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Re: Age related education
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2017, 11:09:38 pm »

I didn't like school as a kid, I think kids could be really mean to each other, some kids are just mean from a very young age. Might be also because their parents are mean. And anyway, I don't think it's natural for most Humans, including kids, to like everyone.

I completely agree with you. I hated secondary school, and wasn't overly happy with high school either. Kids were really cruel to each other, and everything felt like a "survival of the fittest", or rather "survival of the most popular". The funny thing is that my wife had a completely different experience. She loved secondary school and high school. But she grew up in a much smaller town(village) in a completely different country. I think kids in big cities might be more cruel to each other. But why doesn't parents in big cities make private schools together with their friends? Maybe the kids of your friends will get better along with your kids? And then you can hire people you like to be teachers, and make the curriculum yourselves.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 11:14:28 pm by Zanthius » Logged
Zanthius
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Re: Age related education
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2017, 11:18:55 pm »

Yes, individual attention is very important in education, and AI could potentially do that in a way it would be ridiculously expensive to do with humans… and the AI teacher would have domain expertise in every field.

If we learned to do that, we could also send frozen human embryos into space, awake them near the destination, and make the AI teach them without human parents. Frozen human embryos might also be able to survive a much higher acceleration than full grown humans.
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Julie.chan
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Re: Age related education
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2017, 05:54:30 am »

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And thatś exactly why a universal translator is a good idea.

Of course a universal translator would be a good thing. It would also be a great thing if people would stop fighting each other for resources. But being a good thing doesn't make either of these any more realistic.

Quote
However, I think school is bad because it force you to bundle whom you socialize with and who you learn with in the same class.
Because of lack of resources kids are forced to be in the same class with other kids they might not get along with.

I'm going to have to disagree wholeheartedly with this statement. Learning to form bonds, join social groups, and cooperate is probably the most important part of school. In the real world, you do not get a designated box of people who all share the same interests as you. You have a random sample of people in several groups, and you need to be a part of one of those groups to succeed, because we are social animals. Becoming a part of those groups might involve taking up new interests, changing the way you act, or otherwise doing something to conform.

So in fact, being bundled with a random group of kids who have varying interests, some of whom you might not like, is a good thing. The problem comes when you lack social skills, and rather than coaching you, the teacher just assigns you to a group or otherwise forces you to interact with particular people.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 05:58:39 am by onpon666 » Logged

Krulle
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Re: Age related education
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2017, 07:10:24 am »

You also learn to get along while having issues.
Discussing it out....
Not taking every shit.
My sons go to a rather small school, and my second isunable to say no to unreasonable demands of his "friends"...
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Zanthius
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Re: Age related education
« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2017, 10:53:53 am »

This makes me think of the concept of "flow" in psychology.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)

Too much challenges might generate anxiety, while too few challenges might generate boredom. I agree that kids should be moderately exposed to social difficulties, in order to develop a thicker skin, but kids are extremely sensitive, and care must be taken not to overexpose them. Traumatizing kids is probably not a good idea.

Exposing the skin to moderate amounts of sunlight gives it a darker shade, but overexposing it might give you skin cancer.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 11:02:35 am by Zanthius » Logged
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Re: Age related education
« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2017, 11:17:30 pm »

I also don't understand why children don't learn about what is going to happen to themselves when they get into puberty. Learning nothing about what is going to happen to yourself in puberty, before you get into puberty, sounds like throwing a kid into the ocean before you have taught  it to swim.

Children that are 9-10 years old should learn EVERYTHING about what is going to happen to themselves in puberty, in order to survive it better. Lots of teenagers take suicide during puberty. Maybe because they were thrown into the hormonal mess of puberty without learning anything about what would happen to themselves when they were younger.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 11:20:31 pm by Zanthius » Logged
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