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Author Topic: A more detailed civilization (game)  (Read 386 times)
Zanthius
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A more detailed civilization (game)
« on: June 18, 2017, 11:23:23 am »

I am playing civilization 5, to see if it has educational value for children. I like how one invention/discovery leads to something else, and so on. But it could have been MUCH more detailed. They could have used real theorems from the history of mathematics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_mathematics), and real discoveries from the history of physics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_fundamental_physics_discoveries) or (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_scientific_discoveries). Such a game could have huge educational value.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 11:34:26 pm by Zanthius » Logged
Julie.chan
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Re: A more detailed civilization (game)
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2017, 04:23:57 pm »

If you feel that way, there's nothing stopping you from forking Freeciv into an educational game.

You sure talk about education a lot. Are you a teacher/professor, or are you just studying to be one?
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Zanthius
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Re: A more detailed civilization (game)
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2017, 11:24:02 pm »

If you feel that way, there's nothing stopping you from forking Freeciv into an educational game.

Thank you for the information, I didn't know about Freeciv.. That actually sounds like a good idea. 

You sure talk about education a lot. Are you a teacher/professor, or are you just studying to be one?

No. I am just starting to realize that the only way to change the world in a "good" way, must be from reforming how we are educating people.

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Julie.chan
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Re: A more detailed civilization (game)
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2017, 12:19:28 am »

Oh? How old are you, out of curiosity?
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Zanthius
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Re: A more detailed civilization (game)
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2017, 11:00:52 am »

Oh? How old are you, out of curiosity?

Old enough that I played Star Control 2 on a 386 16mhz a few years after it was released.

Anyone know about any branching diagram for the history of mathematics/science? I cannot find any such diagrams from this search https://www.google.no/search?q=branching+diagram+history+of+science&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X

But I think it must be possible to relate theorems and scientific discoveries to each other in a branching diagram.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 12:13:44 pm by Zanthius » Logged
Julie.chan
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Re: A more detailed civilization (game)
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2017, 02:40:36 pm »

So... at least 22 then. Fair enough.

What gave you this epiphany, and what exactly are you trying to accomplish by posting about this stuff to strangers who, like you, have no involvement or expertise in the field of education?
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Death 999
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Re: A more detailed civilization (game)
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2017, 03:16:07 pm »

Onpon, I forget, were you around for his Rainbow Planet Dxun days?
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Julie.chan
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Re: A more detailed civilization (game)
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2017, 03:49:03 pm »

That doesn't sound familiar, so I guess not.
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Zanthius
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Re: A more detailed civilization (game)
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2017, 03:55:37 pm »

So... at least 22 then. Fair enough.

What gave you this epiphany, and what exactly are you trying to accomplish by posting about this stuff to strangers who, like you, have no involvement or expertise in the field of education?

I feel like we have neglected the education of the very young. If kids in China can learn the Chinese alphabet, why can't they also learn equally many chemical structures? I believe the human brain is best suited for learning "ground structures", such as  phonemes, words, Chinese characters, atoms, quarks, or chemical structures, when we are very young. When the kids get a bit older, the brain is probably better suited for making relationships between "ground structures" in the brain. And as we get older and older, these relationships become more and more complex....

Most of the people working in kindergarten or in primary, secondary or high school, have much less education than me. They also often think "within" the box, which is not very useful if you are trying to reshape the box (or reform a system). In general, I write here because I feel like I often get intelligent out-of-the-box feedback, probably because people that are attracted to star control 2 often are prone to intelligent out-of-the-box thinking. Star control 2 is also my favorite game of all time.

But I also talk to other people. Last summer for example, I asked a guy that was taking a master degree in pedagogy why they weren't teaching languages to kids much earlier. He (being bilingual himself) thought it was a great idea, and said he might write his master thesis about it.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 04:42:03 pm by Zanthius » Logged
Julie.chan
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Re: A more detailed civilization (game)
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2017, 05:47:03 pm »

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If kids in China can learn the Chinese alphabet, why can't they also learn equally many chemical structures?

Who says those in China specializing in chemistry don't learn these chemical structures? Also, who says that every Chinese person learns the entire Chinese alphabet? Smiley

Quote
Most of the people working in kindergarten or in primary, secondary or high school, have much less education than me.

Beware the Dunning-Krueger effect.

Quote
They also often think "within" the box, which is not very useful if you are trying to reshape the box (or reform a system). In general, I write here because I feel like I often get intelligent out-of-the-box feedback, probably because people that are attracted to star control 2 often are prone to intelligent out-of-the-box thinking. Star control 2 is also my favorite game of all time.

Maybe you should train to be a teacher, since the subject apparently interests you. It's really easy to talk about what you think others should do, and it doesn't convince anyone else to change. Do it yourself, however, and your then-peers will notice your success and emulate it (assuming it is a success, that is).
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Re: A more detailed civilization (game)
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2017, 06:52:38 pm »

issue is, with teaching a success can only be confirmed after two decades, or so. That's far too slow for political decision makers nowadays... You need to put in much effort upfront, and due to this latency times, you might never see the rewards...
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Death 999
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Re: A more detailed civilization (game)
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2017, 07:12:50 pm »

That makes it hard to even tell if you're doing a good job at all, which slows down optimization even for people with a lot of patience.
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Zanthius
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Re: A more detailed civilization (game)
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2017, 07:29:13 pm »

Maybe you should train to be a teacher, since the subject apparently interests you.

Yeah.. I am starting to realize that maybe I should start working at a Montessori school. I even sent them an email and asked what the requirements are for working there, but they haven't responded yet. There is a 2 year study program I can take to become a Montessori teacher, but it is in a different city, and it seems to require that I have the 1 year normal pedagogy course. So, maybe 3 years just to get the education needed to work as a Montessori teacher.

It's really easy to talk about what you think others should do, and it doesn't convince anyone else to change. Do it yourself, however, and your then-peers will notice your success and emulate it (assuming it is a success, that is).

I am much more interested in getting negative feedback, than in convincing you. Theories tend to grow stronger from negative feedback, not from convincing people.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 07:32:10 pm by Zanthius » Logged
Julie.chan
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Re: A more detailed civilization (game)
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2017, 07:47:09 pm »

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with teaching a success can only be confirmed after two decades, or so.

Perhaps, but you can't change the education system overnight anyway. It's too complex.

Quote
Also, I am much more interested in getting negative feedback, than in convincing you. Theories tend to grow stronger from negative feedback, not from convincing people.

I think in the case of teaching methods, what makes them stronger is demonstration of efficacy by being put into practice. There are so many things that seem perfect on paper, but just don't work out the way you expect in the real world.

You can't just figure out the perfect education system and implement it right away. You have to take it one step at a time, within the system. A really tiny incremental change every generation. You're never going to live to see a perfect education system no matter what, but you can work from the inside to make it a little better.
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Zanthius
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Re: A more detailed civilization (game)
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2017, 08:27:15 pm »

You can't just figure out the perfect education system and implement it right away. You have to take it one step at a time, within the system. A really tiny incremental change every generation. You're never going to live to see a perfect education system no matter what, but you can work from the inside to make it a little better.

You haven't read Thomas Kuhn? This is actually a quite famous book, and required reading for many university courses about the philosophy/history of science.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Structure_of_Scientific_Revolutions

https://www.amazon.com/Structure-Scientific-Revolutions-50th-Anniversary/dp/0226458121/
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 08:29:07 pm by Zanthius » Logged
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