The Ur-Quan Masters Home Page Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
October 21, 2017, 07:45:50 pm
Home Help Search Login Register
News: UQM development migrated from Subversion to Git

+  The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum
|-+  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release
| |-+  Starbase Café (Moderators: Michael Martin, fossil, Lukipela)
| | |-+  Sustainability
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3 Print
Author Topic: Sustainability  (Read 368 times)
Zanthius
*Smell* controller
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 415



View Profile
Re: Sustainability
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2017, 06:02:43 pm »

I don't think that there are any metrics that prove his statement. It is incredibly far fetched, like saying: 'countries in which more citizens wear glasses are also countries in which cancer is the most prevalent'. -> 'nearsightedness causes cancer'.
Posting a graph with that statement doesn't give it any more validity Smiley.

You claimed that there would be less farmland in the future, because of more buildings:

You should also take into account that there will be less and less farmland due to buildings

This seems to be a much more far fetched claim, since urbanization has been going on for a long time now, and we don't have any empirical data which shows that the urbanization trend is decreasing.

Since you were the one that claimed that there would be less farmland in the future because of more buildings, you need to prove that the urbanization trend is decreasing. Or alternatively, that the urbanization trend doesn't matter.

If you can prove that, I will be happy to write about that there will be less farmland in the future due to more buildings.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2017, 06:11:03 pm by Zanthius » Logged
Scalare
*Many bubbles*
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 198



View Profile
Re: Sustainability
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2017, 08:47:33 pm »

this thread was about why we produce less food on the planet, right? There is less farmland but there is more production per hectare, and there are also less people working on farms due to industrialisation of farm equipment (they can do the same production with less people).
But in this specific case I think we're confused about the word urbanisation, which means a percentage increase (people moving from rural to cities), but also a land usage increase for urban areas.
Logged
Zanthius
*Smell* controller
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 415



View Profile
Re: Sustainability
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2017, 10:10:43 pm »

But in this specific case I think we're confused about the word urbanisation, which means a percentage increase (people moving from rural to cities), but also a land usage increase for urban areas.

Farmers and people on the countryside usually don't live in skyscrapers, but some of the urban population do. Of course cities might increase in size, but they might also have an increased population due to taller buildings.

The increased size of a city is not going to be as high as the decrease in land occupied by people moving away from the countryside. A thousand farmers might all have their own farm houses on the countryside, but when they move to a city, they might live in the same skyscraper.
Logged
Scalare
*Many bubbles*
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 198



View Profile
Re: Sustainability
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2017, 11:27:21 pm »

But in this specific case I think we're confused about the word urbanisation, which means a percentage increase (people moving from rural to cities), but also a land usage increase for urban areas.

Farmers and people on the countryside usually don't live in skyscrapers, but some of the urban population do. Of course cities might increase in size, but they might also have an increased population due to taller buildings.

The increased size of a city is not going to be as high as the decrease in land occupied by people moving away from the countryside. A thousand farmers might all have their own farm houses on the countryside, but when they move to a city, they might live in the same skyscraper.

That all really depends how you define countryside and city. It's different all across the world. Even in English speaking countries it differs, with different definitions Smiley.
Logged
Zanthius
*Smell* controller
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 415



View Profile
Re: Sustainability
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2017, 12:34:02 am »

That all really depends how you define countryside and city. It's different all across the world. Even in English speaking countries it differs, with different definitions Smiley.

Well, Netherlands is a relatively small country with a very high population density, so in Netherlands there isn't necessarily so much difference between a city and the countryside. Your entire country is crowded.

« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 12:37:40 am by Zanthius » Logged
Scalare
*Many bubbles*
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 198



View Profile
Re: Sustainability
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2017, 09:08:00 am »

That all really depends how you define countryside and city. It's different all across the world. Even in English speaking countries it differs, with different definitions Smiley.

Well, Netherlands is a relatively small country with a very high population density, so in Netherlands there isn't necessarily so much difference between a city and the countryside. Your entire country is crowded.



And as I said, everyone has different definitions for the words 'city' and also for 'countryside' Smiley. Because there used to be bought rights for it so smaller townships have it but bigger ones don't, and the government has a definition about it as well. But what you consider a city might be considered a small town in another country.I actually live in a small city with no skyscrapers (I think the biggest building with residents has 6 stories, but still it shows it on this picture as densely packed. And also in the 'rural area' between towns we have heavily industrialized rural areas wifh farms, with way more yield per ha^2 than less developed countries.
So.. using those words doesn't mean anything globally. I think you need to look at crop yield and number of residents per surface area to determine if we can continue to feed the world population.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 09:11:40 am by Scalare » Logged
Zanthius
*Smell* controller
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 415



View Profile
Re: Sustainability
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2017, 07:23:42 pm »

I actually live in a small city with no skyscrapers

Ok, but it is usually the biggest cities that increases most, and the biggest cities tend to have skyscrapers.

Quote
AMSTERDAM — The percentage of migrant residents in the four largest Dutch cities, Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Utrecht and The Hague, increased sharply from 36 to 43 percent between 1995 and 2003, the Central Bureau of Statistics (CBS) said on Monday.

https://www.expatica.com/nl/news/Increase-of-migrant-population-in-Dutch-cities_119114.html

But cities of all sizes actually increase:

« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 07:31:45 pm by Zanthius » Logged
Scalare
*Many bubbles*
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 198



View Profile
Re: Sustainability
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2017, 09:35:44 pm »

Don't bother with earlier research; the data of CBS is publicly available at statline.cbs.nl Smiley.

and:
Quote
The total population of the four large cities grew by 66,000 between 1995 and 2003 due primarily to an expansion in municipal borders. The population increase in the original municipal borders only amounted to 19,000.

That's governmental reform at work. I think it's really bad to use city borders in any definition, because these change all the time and cities generally tend to get more populated by expanding their borders.
I don't understand why we keep running around in circles about city size when we should be talking about farmland area and how much people we can feed with that Smiley.
Logged
Zanthius
*Smell* controller
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 415



View Profile
Re: Sustainability
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2017, 12:42:40 pm »

I have written a little about how plastic waste is affecting global fish stocks:



http://archania.org/ending_the_destruction_of_our_habitat.html

As I am investigating more about plastic waste, I am finding even more disturbing news:

Quote
Plastic fibres found in tap water around the world, study reveals

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/sep/06/plastic-fibres-found-tap-water-around-world-study-reveals
« Last Edit: September 23, 2017, 01:12:35 pm by Zanthius » Logged
Scalare
*Many bubbles*
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 198



View Profile
Re: Sustainability
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2017, 10:18:12 am »

I have written a little about how plastic waste is affecting global fish stocks:



http://archania.org/ending_the_destruction_of_our_habitat.html

As I am investigating more about plastic waste, I am finding even more disturbing news:

Quote
Plastic fibres found in tap water around the world, study reveals

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/sep/06/plastic-fibres-found-tap-water-around-world-study-reveals

Neither the graph nor the story on your page explains how plastic affects the fish stocks. You jump from 'fish stocks are declining' and 'plastic is increasing' to 'fish stocks are decreasing because of plastic' without actually explaining how fish die because of it, or how many fish die because of it.
Logged
Zanthius
*Smell* controller
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 415



View Profile
Re: Sustainability
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2017, 06:53:02 pm »

Neither the graph nor the story on your page explains how plastic affects the fish stocks. You jump from 'fish stocks are declining' and 'plastic is increasing' to 'fish stocks are decreasing because of plastic' without actually explaining how fish die because of it, or how many fish die because of it.

Thank you for the feedback. You are absolutely right that I should write more there. I am not sure if plastic in the ocean is contributing to the decrease in global fish stocks or not (I am going to investigate this further). My intention for writing it was rather that people might find it distasteful to eat fish with plastic in it. Fish with plastic in it might not be an equally good source of food.



Quote
One of the major problems with the plastic is that the contaminants cause premature death in animals. They can be ingested, leading to a painful death, and other dangers include strangulation or slow starvation if wildlife becomes imprisoned in the plastic. There is also concern about animals using the islands as transportation. They can end up far from their usual habitat and find themselves in unfriendly waters.

http://www.earthtimes.org/pollution/plastic-contamination-atlantic-ocean/377/

Quote
There are different types of ways that plastic is dangerous for humans. Direct toxicity from plastics comes from lead, cadmium, and mercury. These toxins have also been found in many fish in the ocean, which is very dangerous for humans. Diethylhexyl phthalate (DEHP) contained in some plastics, is a toxic carcinogen. Other toxins in plastics are directly linked to cancers, birth defects, immune system problems, and childhood developmental issues. To learn more on effects of plastics on humans visit the Ecology Center

Other types of toxic plastics are BPA or health-bisphenol-A, along with phthalates (mentioned above). Both of these are of great concern to human health. BPA is used in many things including plastic bottles and food packaging materials. Over time the polymer chains of BPA break down, and can enter the human body in many ways from drinking contaminated water to eating a fish that is exposed to the broken down toxins. Specifically, BPA is a known chemical that interferes with human hormonal function.

https://serc.carleton.edu/NAGTWorkshops/health/case_studies/plastics.html

Netflix has actually made a documentary about this: https://www.netflix.com/no-en/title/80164032
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 11:16:14 pm by Zanthius » Logged
Scalare
*Many bubbles*
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 198



View Profile
Re: Sustainability
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2017, 11:50:16 pm »

That's better Smiley
Logged
Zanthius
*Smell* controller
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 415



View Profile
Re: Sustainability
« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2017, 08:56:22 am »

Plastics in the ocean is apparently also a problem for whales:

Logged
Scalare
*Many bubbles*
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 198



View Profile
Re: Sustainability
« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2017, 11:30:18 am »

About Greenpeace. What they always went on about is Nestlé using too much palm oil in their products.
And as you might know planting palm oil trees for palm oil destroys rainforests.
But what a lot of palm oil is actually used for is for the biological component of biodiesel, 46% of the palm oil in the EU is used for it.
Luckily the EU has voted for a ban on using palm oil in biodiesel this year, they want to totally abolish using it in 2020. But keep in mind that then we need an alternative. Since diesel needs to be composed of 4% biodiesel Smiley.
Logged
Death 999
Global Moderator
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3541


We did. You did. Yes we can. No.


View Profile
Re: Sustainability
« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2017, 04:52:00 pm »

Plastics in the ocean is apparently also a problem for whales:



That's one heck of a pińata. That is to say, it does not look like a real whale.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!