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Author Topic: NEWS: Ghosts of the Precursors is coming!  (Read 5729 times)
bum783
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Re: NEWS: Ghosts of the Precursors is coming!
« Reply #105 on: March 01, 2018, 05:05:33 am »

The reason  I think it was passive aggressive is because he knew that project wasnít from a developer. He knew it was abandoned a while ago. Referencing it now in reply to my comment expressing the fans passion for a real sequel felt like he was referencing the fans failure. . Almost as if to say we need him. BUT Iíll admit thatís just my opinion on a very small comment. One that is derived from years of seeing Frogboy argue with fans in forums.
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Re: NEWS: Ghosts of the Precursors is coming!
« Reply #106 on: March 01, 2018, 09:19:36 am »

Regarding the use of the word "attempt":
I find Star Control 3 also only being an attempt at continueing the story of Star Control 2.

Heck, even successful attempts are that. An attempt. Professionals or volunteers alike. If they try to do something, it is an attempt.

Quote from: Cambridge_Dictionary
    to try to do something, especially something difficult:
[ + to infinitive ] He attempted to escape through a window.
He attempted a joke, but no one laughed.
There's no point in even attempting an explanation - he'll never listen.
[source] *



It makes more sense for this issue to be litigated before Star Control: Origins ships than to leave it in the air.
If there's no way around litigation, you're right.

Still hoping there are friendly way out.
Through the split of IP and Trademark you'll have to continue working with each other to a certain degree.
And it would be good if that can happen without lawyers involved at every step sometime in the future.



*Is there a way to link to external sites in the quote? phpBB has it, but SMF works differently, and their help did not help me....
« Last Edit: March 01, 2018, 09:28:30 am by Krulle » Logged
Zanthius
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Re: NEWS: Ghosts of the Precursors is coming!
« Reply #107 on: March 01, 2018, 10:40:06 am »

I find Star Control 3 also only being an attempt at continueing the story of Star Control 2.

There are so many integrated stories in SC2:

Where are the Rainbow Worlds? Where did the Precursors go?
What is the Ultron? How can you fix the Ultron?
What happened to the Syreen homeworld?
How can you get the Sun Device?
How can you free the Chmmr?
Where is the Arilou hiding?
Where did the Androsynth go?
Where did the Orz come from?
Where can you find the Taalo shield?
How can you get a Dnyarri?
Where is the Vux beast?
How can you start the Yehat rebellion?

It doesn't matter what you do first, but you need to complete most of these pathways before you can complete the game. This is what makes SC2 so rich. There are so many integrated stories.

Any worthy sequel would need to have an equal amount of integrated stories, or richness.  And it wouldn't be fair to just continue on the stories from SC2. You would need to come up with completely new and original stories. That is more or less what Paul Reiche III did when he invented SC2.

Also, that you get payed for the location of Rainbow Worlds, and that their locations form a pattern on the map. That is really deep mind-boggling stuff.  Makes me think of the proposed bible code:

Quote
The Bible code (Hebrew: הצופן התנ"כי‎, hatzofen hatanachi), also known as the Torah code, is a purported set of secret messages encoded within the Hebrew text of the Torah. This hidden code has been described as a method by which specific letters from the text can be selected to reveal an otherwise obscured message. Although Bible codes have been postulated and studied for centuries, the subject has been popularized in modern times by Michael Drosnin's book The Bible Code and the movie The Omega Code.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_code
« Last Edit: March 01, 2018, 11:10:39 am by Zanthius » Logged
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Re: NEWS: Ghosts of the Precursors is coming!
« Reply #108 on: March 01, 2018, 01:46:32 pm »

The reason  I think it was passive aggressive is because he knew that project wasnít from a developer. He knew it was abandoned a while ago. Referencing it now in reply to my comment expressing the fans passion for a real sequel felt like he was referencing the fans failure. . Almost as if to say we need him. BUT Iíll admit thatís just my opinion on a very small comment. One that is derived from years of seeing Frogboy argue with fans in forums.

You are assuming way too much.  I know of the project but I have not followed it. 
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Serosis
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Re: NEWS: Ghosts of the Precursors is coming!
« Reply #109 on: March 01, 2018, 04:07:17 pm »

The reason  I think it was passive aggressive is because he knew that project wasnít from a developer. He knew it was abandoned a while ago. Referencing it now in reply to my comment expressing the fans passion for a real sequel felt like he was referencing the fans failure. . Almost as if to say we need him. BUT Iíll admit thatís just my opinion on a very small comment. One that is derived from years of seeing Frogboy argue with fans in forums.

Not everyone is familiar with Project 6014, after all it was an incomplete fan project from 2011 with its last beta release in 2012.

Honestly I'm surprised he even heard of it all things considered. It's been effectively dead for 5 years.
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bum783
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Re: NEWS: Ghosts of the Precursors is coming!
« Reply #110 on: March 01, 2018, 05:43:31 pm »

The reason  I think it was passive aggressive is because he knew that project wasnít from a developer. He knew it was abandoned a while ago. Referencing it now in reply to my comment expressing the fans passion for a real sequel felt like he was referencing the fans failure. . Almost as if to say we need him. BUT Iíll admit thatís just my opinion on a very small comment. One that is derived from years of seeing Frogboy argue with fans in forums.

Not everyone is familiar with Project 6014, after all it was an incomplete fan project from 2011 with its last beta release in 2012.

Honestly I'm surprised he even heard of it all things considered. It's been effectively dead for 5 years.

Than why on earth would he think that a 5 year dead project would satisfy my "fans want a sequel" comment. If the only response is gonna be about a fan developed project that died 5 years  ago as being the true sequel people wanted, than just don't bother commenting at all. Its not like I was saying anything controversial that required a reply. Before all this legal stuff it was believed that Stardock wasnt creating a true sequel because Fred and Paul might. If this legal dispute ends with Paul and Fred unable to legally create a true sequel, than I hope Stardock would, because if they dont the fans will lose out on something we have waited for since that damn kid asked about the Mark  II
« Last Edit: March 01, 2018, 05:47:04 pm by bum783 » Logged
bum783
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Re: NEWS: Ghosts of the Precursors is coming!
« Reply #111 on: March 01, 2018, 05:48:52 pm »

If Stardock really wants to make me happy they will buy the rights to Xenosaga and finish that story too. LOL
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Re: NEWS: Ghosts of the Precursors is coming!
« Reply #112 on: March 01, 2018, 06:18:49 pm »

The reason  I think it was passive aggressive is because he knew that project wasnít from a developer. He knew it was abandoned a while ago. Referencing it now in reply to my comment expressing the fans passion for a real sequel felt like he was referencing the fans failure. . Almost as if to say we need him. BUT Iíll admit thatís just my opinion on a very small comment. One that is derived from years of seeing Frogboy argue with fans in forums.

Not everyone is familiar with Project 6014, after all it was an incomplete fan project from 2011 with its last beta release in 2012.

Honestly I'm surprised he even heard of it all things considered. It's been effectively dead for 5 years.

Than why on earth would he think that a 5 year dead project would satisfy my "fans want a sequel" comment. If the only response is gonna be about a fan developed project that died 5 years  ago as being the true sequel people wanted, than just don't bother commenting at all. Its not like I was saying anything controversial that required a reply. Before all this legal stuff it was believed that Stardock wasnt creating a true sequel because Fred and Paul might. If this legal dispute ends with Paul and Fred unable to legally create a true sequel, than I hope Stardock would, because if they dont the fans will lose out on something we have waited for since that damn kid asked about the Mark  II

I don't know of his intentions of mentioning it. He probably didn't even know it was dead.
You could always not immediately jump to the negative whenever he answers.

Benefit of the doubt and whatnot. Sounds like you didn't even know it was dead until I mentioned it.
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bum783
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Re: NEWS: Ghosts of the Precursors is coming!
« Reply #113 on: March 01, 2018, 06:45:43 pm »


You could always not immediately jump to the negative whenever he answers.


The level of irritation with this entire thing is making it tough to be logical. I was mildly excited when Origins was announced. It wasnt the true sequel I wanted BUT it was something and maybe it was a step towards it. Than Ghosts was announced, and suddenly there was all this excitement and hype. Not more than 2 months ago there was TWO Star Control games on the horizon, NOW fans are left wondering if there will be any future at all.

Frogboy takes the brunt of the anger because he puts himself out there. I know that engaging with fans can be a good thing, but he has had a knack for rubbing some people the wrong way, myself included.  I hope when this is all over Paul and Fred can make the game they want, ORRRRR that Stardock will make a sequel if Paul and Fred are unable or unwilling too.
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Re: NEWS: Ghosts of the Precursors is coming!
« Reply #114 on: March 01, 2018, 08:47:18 pm »

The thing about it is that these proceedings will have zero impact on Origins or Ghosts.
Nothing can stop P&F from making Ghosts if they actually want to.

They just need to work out the trademark stuff out before-hand if they want to promote it as "Star Control".
Or they could take a hit to their pride and call it a sequel to The Ur-Quan Masters.

It's totally up to them. Stardock in no way, as far as I have seen, wants to stop P&F from making Ghosts.
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Re: NEWS: Ghosts of the Precursors is coming!
« Reply #115 on: March 01, 2018, 09:25:57 pm »

It already seems as if they're marketing it as continuation of The Ur-Quan Masters.
From the creators of Star Control 2.


This way, the Trademark is mentioned.
But it is factual, hence a fair use of the trademark, IMHO.

They seem to have switched over, hence the changes in their original blog posts.

If they wish to remain daring, a judge may even decide, that
"Continueing the story directly from Star Control 2."
could be factual and fair use as well. But that'll be again leaning very close to the allegations brought forward by Stardock , so this would again be pushing it.
But even then, the UQM fans here would not mind an additional line explicitly stating, that this game has no further affiliation to the trademark "Star Control" and the trademarkowner "Stardock", nor to the upcoming Star Control (TM) game Origins.

Would be quite a lot of information to keep together, and I fear that not all games-sites would leave the disclaimers in their publication.

And I must say, I am impressed by Frogboy's will to keep facing us here.
And I wish to thank him once again for doing so.


And we have Fwiffo's ( Fred and/or Paul in the IRC chats) promise that the new game will explain why the bridge turned purple, IF we're willing to spend the credits for that....
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Re: NEWS: Ghosts of the Precursors is coming!
« Reply #116 on: March 01, 2018, 09:56:17 pm »

The thing about it is that these proceedings will have zero impact on Origins or Ghosts.

I mean, it already has had an impact on Origins. It won't feature any stories or characters from the original game. Initially Stardock said this was out of respect, but looking at the times that Paul and Fred refused to license that stuff to them, and the lawsuit, Stardock will likely never be able to make a game that features anything from the original games. (To be fair, they do own the derivative copyrights in Star Control 3, so maybe you'll see the Vyro-Ingo if you remember them.)


Quote
Nothing can stop P&F from making Ghosts if they actually want to.

They just need to work out the trademark stuff out before-hand if they want to promote it as "Star Control".
Or they could take a hit to their pride and call it a sequel to The Ur-Quan Masters.

Agreed. Ghosts of the Precursors will come out one way or another, under some name. If they can prove the Trademark expired, maybe it will be Star Control. If not, Stardock will own the name.

But one important note to add -- it might not even be called a sequel to the Ur-Quan Masters.

Because Stardock is trying to claim the name "The Ur-Quan Masters".



« Last Edit: March 01, 2018, 10:00:45 pm by rosepatel » Logged
Elestan
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Re: NEWS: Ghosts of the Precursors is coming!
« Reply #117 on: March 01, 2018, 10:14:42 pm »

The thing about it is that these proceedings will have zero impact on Origins or Ghosts.
Nothing can stop P&F from making Ghosts if they actually want to.

Well, there's some potential danger if Stardock were to prevail in getting "The Ur-Quan Masters" trademark.

Note that their Q&A page has added the following:

Quote
Q: Why did Stardock trademark Ur-Quan Masters?  

A:  Our actions continue to be in the interest of protecting Star Control and our ability to create and share more Star Control assets to the community in the future (including releasing the source code of Star Control III, which we own, as well as future Star Control Origins and content) without fear that Paul and Fred would claim that we are creating "confusion" by doing so.   As background:  Stardock always had the common law trademark to Ur-Quan Masters. It's the sub-title to Star Control II after all and was, by Paul and Fred's admission, available in commerce on GOG even before Stardock was involved.

Of all the issues in this case, I think this has the greatest chance of making it blow up and get really messy, if Stardock tries to push it.  First, I'll note that this trademark has not yet been granted.  Stardock's application was rejected due to errors in the form, and Paul R. has filed a competing registration for the same mark.

Moreover, I think Stardock's claim to "THE UR-QUAN MASTERS" has a lot of potential vulnerabilities.  To name just a few:

  • Trademarks require continued use in commerce.  Even if "THE UR-QUAN MASTERS" had been fully registered when SC2 came out, there's a strong argument that it would have lapsed in the early 2000s.  That certainly also applies to whatever common law trademark they might claim.
  • The argument that Atari's GoG sales qualify is going to run into the problem that Atari acknowledged that it didn't have the right to put them up on GoG in the first place due to the expiry of its license with Paul.
  • Trademarks can't allow anyone to contest their use, but the open-source project has been using this name since 2002, without being contested.  The first hit for the phrase in any web search in the last decade would take you to the open-source project, not anything controlled by Atari or Stardock.
  • Trademarks can't be speculatively registered.  If Stardock wants to register "THE UR-QUAN MASTERS", it's going to have to show that it actually plans to use that phrase to market a game that it sells or is planning to sell.  This means that it needs to either put the Ur-Quan in SC:Origins, or win a rights battle with Paul over SC2.
  • Unlike "Star Control", a name with "Ur-Quan" in it is using material that Paul R. can make a copyright claim against.
  • Common law trademarks are usually designated with (TM), but this was never done for this phrase.

But even if the claim is weak, it could get tied up in court for a long time, with the potential to injunct the release of any new properties that mention "THE UR-QUAN MASTERS".

So, my worry here is that Stardock is trying to assert that they not only own the "Star Control" trademark, but that they also still have the right to use the SC2 characters and universe.  And I understand why they would want to be able to do that; if they can't use the SC2 universe, the value of the "Star Control" trademark is greatly reduced.  But to pull that off, their lawyer is going to need to find a way around Paul's contract language, and that could drag into an Eternal Conflict.

I hope that this registration is just legal maneuvering for position/leverage on Stardock's part.  I think it would be a dumb move for them to push it, because it'll clearly make them into the bad guy, they'll have a weak hand, and it's a fight that Paul R. could not step back from.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2018, 11:00:39 pm by Elestan » Logged
Frogboy
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Re: NEWS: Ghosts of the Precursors is coming!
« Reply #118 on: March 01, 2018, 10:51:21 pm »


And I must say, I am impressed by Frogboy's will to keep facing us here.
And I wish to thank him once again for doing so.


Thanks.  I appreciate that.

I too want to see the Ur-Quan story continued.   Despite some of the depressingly cynical interpretations I've read, the principle reason Stardock didn't use the characters from SC2 was because Paul said he hoped to someday return and continue this story and we didn't want to muddy that. 

Obviously, the situation has changed and will continue to change.  All we can hope is that some sort of mutual understanding is reached that satisfies everyone.
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Re: NEWS: Ghosts of the Precursors is coming!
« Reply #119 on: March 03, 2018, 06:01:54 pm »

I would like to apologize to people here, including Frogboy, if some of my past posts were overly aggressive. I generally try to avoid picking fights with people online, but I probably got carried away in the past couple weeks.

If I post on the legal conflict in the future, I will do it with less hostility and be less confrontational.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2018, 07:13:24 pm by Mormont » Logged
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