The Ur-Quan Masters Home Page Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
November 20, 2017, 08:50:00 am
Home Help Search Login Register
News: UQM development migrated from Subversion to Git

+  The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum
|-+  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release
| |-+  Starbase Café (Moderators: Michael Martin, fossil, Lukipela)
| | |-+  Accidental digression on left-right
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 Print
Author Topic: Accidental digression on left-right  (Read 365 times)
Death 999
Global Moderator
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3575


We did. You did. Yes we can. No.


View Profile
Accidental digression on left-right
« on: November 06, 2017, 02:29:01 pm »

(so I read page 2 of cognitive biases and didn't realize there were two more pages and ended up causing a digression. Split.

The difference between the left and right is that the left is pro diversity of Demographics and the right is pro diversity of opinions.

Most on the left like diversity of opinion. Just not absolutely indiscriminate diversity of opinion. Like their opinions about you can be, you know, totally wrong (and vice versa, but you won't know that). For instance, 'all gays are pedophiles'. That's a not-entirely-unpopular opinion, and it's wrong, and it's a serious attack against around 1/10th of the population. It causes a lot of damage. That's not OK. There are a fair number of things like this.

Also, opinions that steadfastly cling to totally disproven positions on matters of fact and again cause harm - like, say, trickle-down economics, and in a different direction, falsifying the motivations behind the Confederacy, are also irksome. There are not too many things in this category, and many are mirrored by equivalents on the right, so it doesn't draw a distinction between the sides.

Most other economic arguments, cultural questions that don't boil down to false personal attacks, and so on, the left is not particularly un-accepting of differences. Especially compared to the Tea Party and its primarying the tar out of anyone who doesn't do exactly what they say. The defecting Berniecrats are the closest comparison there, and they don't add up to nearly as much a demand for political purity.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 05:03:04 pm by Death 999 » Logged
Sargon
*Many bubbles*
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 128



View Profile
Accidental digresson on left-right
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2017, 03:07:12 pm »

The left likes to tell you what is your opinion and then attack it.
They call you a racist then attack you for being a racist.
So that is the dangers about "Punch a Nazi"(which is acceptable among the left).
While punching a Nazi might sound like a good thing to do, the problem is who decides who is a Nazi, and so you get a force to band or use violence against people you deem racist/have bad thoughts and opinions.
So that is the trouble, once you regulate ideas, it's easy to label someone as having bad ideas and banning him and not even let him talk.

If you don't allow any idea out, even the most racist ones, you are likely to end not allowing the moderate ideas as well.
Logged
Zanthius
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 501



View Profile
Accidental digresson on left-right
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2017, 03:13:08 pm »

If you don't allow any idea out, even the most racist ones, you are likely to end not allowing the moderate ideas as well.

There certainly are left-wing people that believe in moderating ideas, just like there are right-wing people that believe in moderating ideas. I am sure there are plenty of right-wing people that don't want to allow Muslims to express themselves freely. Probably also right-wing people that don't want allow black people to express themselves freely. Maybe even right-wing people that don't want to allow women to express themselves freely.

But why base our political ideas upon these stupid generalizations? I don't believe in moderating ideas, nor do I think most people here do.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 03:38:40 pm by Zanthius » Logged
Sargon
*Many bubbles*
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 128



View Profile
Accidental digresson on left-right
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2017, 04:16:42 pm »

"Just not absolutely indiscriminate diversity of opinion"

Death999 said it.

Anyway, the radical right wing don't need to ban the left wing ideas. The left wing don't understand that any violence or banning of right wing really play into their hands.
Antifa even helped the Nazi party in the 30s to gain popularity because once they went on the street as vigilanty the Nazis could used that politically to say "Look, there is chaos in the streets, we need to fix this".
Logged
Zanthius
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 501



View Profile
Accidental digresson on left-right
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2017, 04:34:10 pm »

Death999: Can you move this discussion into a separate thread? I really dont think subjective  generalizations about what constitutes the left belongs in a thread about cognitive biases.
Logged
Death 999
Global Moderator
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3575


We did. You did. Yes we can. No.


View Profile
Accidental digresson on left-right
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2017, 04:56:24 pm »

The left likes to tell you what is your opinion and then attack it.

If by 'the left' you mean 'people behaving badly in politis, regardless of political slant', I'd agree. Supposing this happens only on one side is a major blinders-wearing issue.

I split, since the post I was responding to was 2 pages back and it was a digression anyway.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 05:03:41 pm by Death 999 » Logged
Sargon
*Many bubbles*
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 128



View Profile
Re: Accidental digression on left-right
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2017, 05:11:15 pm »

Well, nowadays you see left wingers more likely to ban right wing ideas/guests in university/people on twitter/people on the media.
The fact that the left throw so much slander, and accept no possibility of discussing different opinions only serve the right wingers.

In most free countries when you tell people "You are not allowed to listen to them." Or you tell people what they shouldn't do, people are automatically intrigued by it.
If you try to hide "bad ideas" long enough, they will take root in underground or alternative places and draw people there.
The fact that the left controls the mainstream narrative is bad for itself, because it puts the right on the "rebel" "underground" place.

Maybe those politicians have no choice, because a true honest discussion would reveal their ideas are empty. And even if they are not, that is the impression they are giving to most people.
Logged
Zanthius
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 501



View Profile
Re: Accidental digression on left-right
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2017, 05:46:39 pm »

According to the diagram I made a few months ago, immigration regulations should actually be considered left-wing, since it is a form of regulations. The most universally accepted interpretation of left-wing vs right-wing, is that left-wing wants to have more regulations, while right-wing wants to have less regulations.



Anyhow. Why can't you just say that you think it is a bad idea for all people to believe in censorship of opinions, no matter if they are left-wing or right-wing?
Logged
Sargon
*Many bubbles*
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 128



View Profile
Re: Accidental digression on left-right
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2017, 06:00:39 pm »

By the way, there is always the claim that "Religion is dangerous, it brings violence, it's bad..."
Well the last shooter in the US was a left wing atheist.
So include Atheism into the dangerous ideologies.
Logged
Zanthius
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 501



View Profile
Re: Accidental digression on left-right
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2017, 06:22:35 pm »

By the way, there is always the claim that "Religion is dangerous, it brings violence, it's bad..."

Are you referring to this? I really don't care if people are religious as long as they don't discriminate.



Well the last shooter in the US was a left wing atheist.
So include Atheism into the dangerous ideologies.

Well, I don't think it is wise to generalize upon the behavior of one individual, and I don't think I have ever said that I am an atheist.
Logged
Sargon
*Many bubbles*
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 128



View Profile
Re: Accidental digression on left-right
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2017, 06:48:55 pm »

Sure, but you talked about toxic ideologies.
There is no specific toxic ideology in the West.
And even if you talk to radical Muslims or Nazis they will try to rationalize how they are not racist or hate women.
That's why I think it's wrong to target certain ideologies and attack people for those.

It's like there is almost 0% chance for you to find someone on trial who is 100% honest and admits that he have done something wrong and he should get the full punishment he deserves.

And you are correct. People can be racist or backwater inside their head, but only if they act upon it, it's what makes the difference.
I don't see how you can categorize ideas as toxic, I think it's really the individual who is toxic, rarely the ideas themselves.
Logged
Death 999
Global Moderator
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3575


We did. You did. Yes we can. No.


View Profile
Re: Accidental digression on left-right
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2017, 07:09:17 pm »

Well, nowadays you see left wingers more likely to ban right wing ideas/guests in university/people on twitter/people on the media.
The fact that the left throw so much slander, and accept no possibility of discussing different opinions only serve the right wingers.

Again, this is not a partisanly-asymmetric bad strategy. If you've somehow missed the continuous slander by the right… well, it's there too. Or perhaps you haven't missed it, but have simply failed to notice it since it wasn't aimed at you?

I am not defending the terrible moves like shouting down and censoring. But I'm also not celebrating a 'diversity of opinion' on matters of readily verifiable fact where the incorrect position leads to harmful policy and behavior. Nor should we be, and nor is the Right diverse in this dimension in any way the Left is not as well.

Maybe those politicians have no choice, because a true honest discussion would reveal their ideas are empty.

Which ones are you talking about? Never mind -- the answer is all too obvious in your tiny, dry eyes. (nb: Safe Ones quote, not to be taken as anything. Just seemed like the perfect time to drop it in) I take you to mean that politicians on the left have only empty ideas? See my first paragraph.
Logged
Sargon
*Many bubbles*
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 128



View Profile
Re: Accidental digression on left-right
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2017, 08:17:46 pm »

"Easily verifiable", I don't think most important things are easily verifiable.
You wouldn't listen that the dangerous terror funding opposition in Saudia Arabia actually donated millions to Obama?
The rigging of the DNC primaries is "shurgged off" as a non issue, and that Bernie took the money eventhough he knew it was rigged.

The left winger fail to accept there are bad things going on on their side. They tend to shrug it off as unimportant, although many of the things left wing politicians od will get the average joe a lifeterm in prison.
Also the "Seth rich assasination" conspiracy theory might actually be true.
How can you trust everything said in the media when they have been caught up lying many times and the numbers just don't add up?
But some people swear everything in the MSM is the moderate common sense "verifiable" truth, yet any talk about corruption by Hillary and Obama is just lies and impossible.
Logged
Scalare
*Many bubbles*
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 211



View Profile
Re: Accidental digression on left-right
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2017, 06:30:06 pm »

Sargon, the nature of politics is such that the people who abuse the system the most get the most power. So that's why it's not surprising that poiticians do more corrupt things than average joe.
Logged
Death 999
Global Moderator
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3575


We did. You did. Yes we can. No.


View Profile
Re: Accidental digression on left-right
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2017, 06:35:42 pm »

"Easily verifiable", I don't think most important things are easily verifiable.
You wouldn't listen that the dangerous terror funding opposition in Saudia Arabia actually donated millions to Obama?
The rigging of the DNC primaries is "shurgged off" as a non issue, and that Bernie took the money eventhough he knew it was rigged.

Those are not the examples I made, and those are things I think diversity of opinion on is OK. I do disagree with those, yes, but i doubt I object to your position more than you object to my position on them, so there's no partisan asymmetry there.

The three examples I gave were:

1) 'gays are pedophiles'
2) trickle-down economics
3) the motivations behind the Confederacy

These are quite different than political-scandal-du-jour.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!