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Author Topic: Accidental digression on left-right  (Read 423 times)
Sargon
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Re: Accidental digression on left-right
« Reply #45 on: November 16, 2017, 06:40:42 pm »

Women didn't have a right to vote before the 50s no?
Linoln also didn't give women the right to vote. So he is sexist and his monuments should be removed.
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Zanthius
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Re: Accidental digression on left-right
« Reply #46 on: November 16, 2017, 06:42:20 pm »

Women didn't have a right to vote before the 50s no?
Linoln also didn't give women the right to vote. So he is sexist and his monuments should be removed.

Did he fight in a war against women's right to vote?
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Sargon
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Re: Accidental digression on left-right
« Reply #47 on: November 16, 2017, 06:51:45 pm »

They said the war was not about slavery, it was about not joining the north. The slavery thing was a side effect.
But the US did oppress women when they tried to get the right to vote... so I don't think Lincoln was a Feminist.

Edit: Notice how you try to find the right reason why to remove those statues... like, you have a hidden reasoning.
Not all the German soldiers who fought in WW2 were responsible for Hitler's crimes as well.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2017, 06:54:46 pm by Sargon » Logged
Zanthius
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Re: Accidental digression on left-right
« Reply #48 on: November 16, 2017, 06:54:10 pm »

They said the war was not about slavery, it was about not joining the north. The slavery thing was a side effect.

They were already joined with the north. They wanted to separate from the north, to keep slavery.

But the US did oppress women when they tried to get the right to vote... so I don't think Lincoln was a Feminist.

Sure, but his main agenda wasn't to prevent women from voting.
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Sargon
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Re: Accidental digression on left-right
« Reply #49 on: November 16, 2017, 06:56:30 pm »

How do you know what was his main agenda?
So just because he inherited a sexist country he is not responsible?
What if the south inherited a country with slavery? Maybe it's not their responsibility to free them? Maybe it wasn't there agenda?

As I said, not every southern was also supporting slavery. As not every German solider who fought in WW2 was supporting the death camps?
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Zanthius
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Re: Accidental digression on left-right
« Reply #50 on: November 16, 2017, 07:06:05 pm »

What if the south inherited a country with slavery? Maybe it's not their responsibility to free them? Maybe it wasn't there agenda?

The southern states (and Latin American countries) more or less invented slavery themselves. There wasn't much slavery like that in Europe before Europeans went to America.  The southern states actively fought to prevent their own president (Lincoln) from ending slavery. They did this by requiring independence from the north.

This map shows when slavery was abolished in different American countries:



As you can see, many countries had abolished slavery before USA. Only Brazil, Cuba and Puerto Rico abolished slavery after USA.

As I said, not every southern was also supporting slavery. As not every German solider who fought in WW2 was supporting the death camps?

Most of the Germans that fought for Germany in WW2 were well aware of the Nazi ideology. But they weren't as guilty of atrocities as the people organizing and working in the death camps.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2017, 07:21:10 pm by Zanthius » Logged
Sargon
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Re: Accidental digression on left-right
« Reply #51 on: November 16, 2017, 08:10:02 pm »

I am not sure how you know all of this.
They didn't have the internet back then.
The war with the south might have been about slavery, it might have also not.
How do you know what people knew what people thought?
You will have to find written evidence for that, and I suspect it will only be for the leaders anyway, if you find anything.
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Zanthius
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Re: Accidental digression on left-right
« Reply #52 on: November 16, 2017, 08:18:04 pm »

I am not sure how you know all of this.

I have read a lot of history. There is also a TV-series about the civil war: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088583/?ref_=nv_sr_1

The war with the south might have been about slavery, it might have also not.
How do you know what people knew what people thought?

Even though they didn't have Internet in the 19th century, they certainly wrote a lot of letters and books. So we have a lot of written evidences about what the civil war was about.

You will have to find written evidence for that, and I suspect it will only be for the leaders anyway, if you find anything.

Here is a teaching company course about the civil war: https://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/american-civil-war.html

There are also lots of history books written about the civil war. Many of them with good references.
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Re: Accidental digression on left-right
« Reply #53 on: November 17, 2017, 01:04:18 am »

The war with the south might have been about slavery, it might have also not.
How do you know what people knew what people thought?

By looking at what they wrote about it at the time.

An examination of the Confederate constitution, the various declarations of secessions, and many other writings, strongly establish it.

For example

http://www.civil-war.net/pages/mississippi_declaration.asp <- this one is really direct about it, whooooeee.
http://www.civil-war.net/pages/georgia_declaration.asp

Those two get down to the whole slavery thing right away. This next one beats around the bush a little, but when it gets down to it, all of the procedural matters stem from the issue of slavery - it's all 'we would never have joined up with the other states if it weren't that we were promised we could keep doing slavery'.

http://www.civil-war.net/pages/southcarolina_declaration.asp

In particular, see the section starting, 'The Constitution of the United States, in its fourth Article, provides as follows:'

Texas doesn't get as wordy, but it basically whines about slavery not being allowed to expand (calling it southerners not being allowed to live and work elsewhere, ignoring the possibility of simply not bringing slaves), though they do have the only other complaint, that of insufficient border security vs Mexico and the Indians:

http://www.civil-war.net/pages/texas_declaration.asp

The site I found those on doesn't have the others as far as I can tell, so I'll stop there.

So yeah, the leaders were all about the slavery. And they weren't even dressing it up all that hard in anything else. The regular citizens didn't have much of anything else to be fighting over either, except for Texas. Of course, Texas didn't get any better border security out of seceding, so…
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Zanthius
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Re: Accidental digression on left-right
« Reply #54 on: November 30, 2017, 11:13:14 pm »

I have added this section to the article called "Global trends and concluding remarks":



http://archania.org/global_trends_and_concluding_remarks.html

This has of course also been uploaded to GitHub. Everything I change from now on, will first be uploaded to GitHub.
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