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Author Topic: Money as the relationship between labor and consumer goods.  (Read 373 times)
Zanthius
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Re: A vector interpretation of economic growth
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2017, 12:10:49 am »

Of course it's an approximation, but it's accurate until a degree.
The sun will also swallow the earth one day and I didn't include that in the equation as well.

It is horribly inaccurate. This would be more accurate for most consumer goods:

Production=Consumption + Natural Decay + Waste

The point is growth is when your production is bigger than your consumption.
The input and output, kind of like a diet.

This actually scares me, because it seems like you think of the money in your bank account as being equivalent with the fat molecules on your body. But fat molecules have an inherent value in themselves since they can be utilized as fuel by your body, while money is just a metric for measuring something else. That is why we get inflation if we put 1 billion USD into every bank account on the planet.  There wouldn't be any inflation of how much fuel people can get from their fat molecules, if everybody suddenly just got 20 kg of extra fat.

« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 07:23:23 am by Zanthius » Logged
Sargon
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Re: Money as dimensionless vectors
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2017, 07:34:50 pm »

Of course money is only a representation of the share you have of the global products, sort of.
And I talked about products vs consumption, I didn't mention money.
If you make more products than you consume you have more "products fat".
Now about decay... that's tricky because every products have all sort of preservation qualities.
So even if we include decay of products, then it's less than O(n) but still greater than O(1).
So it's a bit less than linear, but it is not balanced. So it stands true, as long as production has a greater order(of any order) than consumption, there is growth.
It can be O(n) or O(logn) or O(n^2)
What you talk about is not growth, but seems more like the relative distribution of the products.
I am not talking about distribution of products/wealth, I am talking about growth of the globe.
I am not sure if we still talk about the growth of the planet or countries, since you changed the thread's title.
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Zanthius
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Re: Money as dimensionless vectors
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2017, 07:48:36 pm »

This thread has evolved into a proposal for a new currency:



http://www.archania.org/money_as_the_relationship_between_labor_and_consumer_goods.html
« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 09:07:09 pm by Zanthius » Logged
Death 999
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Re: Global economic growth
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2017, 12:10:14 am »

For instance if the speed of producing bread is higher than the speed the bread is consumed, then there is going to be more and more surplus of bread, even if nothing change in the efficiency of producing bread.
That's exactly trickle down.

I do not see the connection between these two ideas.
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Sargon
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Re: Money as the relationship between labor and consumer goods.
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2017, 01:19:00 am »

The connection is that as long as there is growth, the rate of valuable things increase faster than the rate people consume it.
That means there is more room for consumption to increase in the future.
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Re: Money as the relationship between labor and consumer goods.
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2017, 01:27:33 pm »

The connection is that as long as there is growth, the rate of valuable things increase faster than the rate people consume it.
That means there is more room for consumption to increase in the future.

But that's not what trickle-down means. Trickle-down economics is the idea that lowering taxes on the wealthy allows them to invest, so they do invest, so growth occurs, leading to the benefit you named. The problem with it is that letting the rich have more money doesn't lead to anything close to a sufficient amount of investment.
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Zanthius
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Re: Money as the relationship between labor and consumer goods.
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2017, 04:40:17 pm »

But that's not what trickle-down means.

Exactly! We can't just redefine well established concepts whenever it suites our confirmation biases.

But even his modified definition doesn't fit with the reality we are living in. If it fits with anything, it might be with the growth of garbage on this planet.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 04:47:24 pm by Zanthius » Logged
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Re: Money as the relationship between labor and consumer goods.
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2017, 08:19:44 pm »

Trickle down is simply based on growth without caring how much rich the rich people get.
A 0% tax on rich people is not the ultimate goal of Trickle down, it's not "Reduce taxes as much as possible".
It's an optimization of taxes, a maxima between taxes(state income) and growth.

There is also no such a thing as "tax for the rich". It doesn't exist.
You can't tax someone based on how much money or asset he has, you tax people on transactions.
A rich person could take 1$ as his salary(like many coporate CEOs do) and you won't be able to tax him for that.

If the rich person doesn't invest or doesn't take a salary, you can't tax him,
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Zanthius
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Re: Money as the relationship between labor and consumer goods.
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2017, 08:36:20 pm »

Trickle down is simply based on growth without caring how much rich the rich people get.

So we are just supposed to ignore that rich people are inflating our economy?



It's an optimization of taxes, a maxima between taxes(state income) and growth.

So there is no difference between those who believe in trickle down and those who believe in progressive taxes? We also want to find the optimal level of taxes.

There is also no such a thing as "tax for the rich". It doesn't exist.
You can't tax someone based on how much money or asset he has, you tax people on transactions.
A rich person could take 1$ as his salary(like many coporate CEOs do) and you won't be able to tax him for that.

If the rich person doesn't invest or doesn't take a salary, you can't tax him,

Quote
A wealth tax (also called a capital tax or equity tax) is a levy on the total value of personal assets, including: bank deposits, real estate, assets in insurance and pension plans, ownership of unincorporated businesses, financial securities, and personal trusts.[1] Typically liabilities (primarily mortgages and other loans) are deducted, hence it is sometimes called a net wealth tax.

A wealth tax taxes the accumulated stock of purchasing power, in contrast to income tax, which is a tax on the flow of assets (a change in stock).

Current examples
  • Argentina: It is named Impuesto a los Bienes Personales, on assets above ARS 800,000 (US$53,500), the annual rates are 0.75% for 2016, 0.50% for 2017 and 0.25% in 2018.
  • France: There is a solidarity tax on wealth on any net assets above €800,000, if your total net worth is €1,300,000 or more. Marginal rates range from 0.5% to 1.5%.[2] In 2007, it collected €4.07 billion, accounting for 1.4% of total revenue.[3]
  • Spain: There is a tax called Patrimonio. The tax rate is progressive, from 0.2 to 3.75% of net assets above the threshold of €700,000 after €300,000 primary residence allowance.[4] The exact amount varies between provinces.
  • Netherlands: Interest income is taxed like a wealth tax. Up to and including 2016, the rate was fixed at 1.2% (30% taxation over an assumed yield of 4%). From the fiscal year of 2017 onwards, the tax rate progresses with wealth. See Income tax in the Netherlands.
  • Norway: 0.7% (municipal) and 0.15% (national) a total of 0.85% levied on net assets exceeding 1,480,000 kr as of 2017.[5] For tax purposes, the value of real estate assets are estimated to approximately 50% of the market value (25% if it is the taxpayer's primary residence).[6] The Conservative and Progress parties in the current government and the Liberal Party have stated that they aim to reduce and eventually eliminate the wealth tax.[7]
  • Switzerland: A progressive wealth tax that varies by residence location. Most cantons have no wealth tax for individual net worth less than CHF 100,000 and progressively raise the tax rate on net assets with a top rate ranging from 0.13% to 0.94% depending on canton and municipality of residence.[8] Wealth tax is levied against worldwide assets of Swiss residents, but it is not levied against assets in Switzerland held by non-residents.[8][9]
  • Italy: Two wealth taxes are imposed. One, IVIE, is a 0.76% tax imposed on real assets held outside Italy. The values of such assets are determined by purchase price or current market value. Property taxes paid in the country where the real estate exists can offset IVIE. Another tax, IVAFE, is 0.15% and is levied on all financial assets located outside the country, including, so far as the language seems to imply, individual pension schemes such as 401(k)s and IRAs in the US.[10]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_tax

There can also be corporate taxes:

Quote
A corporate tax, also called corporation tax or company tax, is a direct tax imposed by a jurisdiction on the income or capital of corporations or analogous legal entities. Many countries impose such taxes at the national level, and a similar tax may be imposed at state or local levels. The taxes may also be referred to as income tax or capital tax. Partnerships are generally not taxed at the entity level. A country's corporate tax may apply to:

  • corporations incorporated in the country,
  • corporations doing business in the country on income from that country,
  • foreign corporations who have a permanent establishment in the country, or
  • corporations deemed to be resident for tax purposes in the country.

Company income subject to tax is often determined much like taxable income for individual taxpayers. Generally, the tax is imposed on net profits. In some jurisdictions, rules for taxing companies may differ significantly from rules for taxing individuals. Certain corporate acts, like reorganizations, may not be taxed. Some types of entities may be exempt from tax.

Countries may tax corporations on its net profit and may also tax shareholders when the corporation pays a dividend. Where dividends are taxed, a corporation may be required to withhold tax before the dividend is distributed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_tax

« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 10:28:11 pm by Zanthius » Logged
Death 999
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Re: Money as the relationship between labor and consumer goods.
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2017, 09:52:26 pm »

Might want to better mark off where you're quoting, there, Zanthius
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Zanthius
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Re: Money as the relationship between labor and consumer goods.
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2017, 09:53:51 pm »

Might want to better mark off where you're quoting, there, Zanthius

I agree. Can you make a different quote color, when we are quoting something external? I don't like that we need to use the same color for external quotes. I feel like it gets mixed up with his quotes then.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 09:59:51 pm by Zanthius » Logged
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Re: Money as the relationship between labor and consumer goods.
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2017, 01:15:47 pm »

I don't really care about the american tax system.
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Zanthius
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Re: Money as the relationship between labor and consumer goods.
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2017, 09:44:24 pm »

I have rewritten the upper part of the article, and introduced a proposal for a new currency called Standard Hourly Wage (SHW)



http://archania.org/money_as_the_relationship_between_labor_and_consumer_goods.html
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 11:30:51 pm by Zanthius » Logged
Zanthius
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Re: Money as the relationship between labor and consumer goods.
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2017, 01:20:39 am »

Because of this article, I have been investigating cryptocurrencies lately.  I have already started mining a cryptocurrency called "monero", and I have decided to start building a huge GPU-miner to mine Ethereum.  Anyhow, I feel a bit bad about this, since I am using lots of computer power and electricity only to get money to myself. Except for destroying the national currencies, I am not sure how much this really benefits our society. So here I have made a proposal:



« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 01:23:40 am by Zanthius » Logged
Zanthius
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Re: Money as the relationship between labor and consumer goods.
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2017, 12:06:39 pm »

I have now written about how this cryptocurrency can be used to keep the value of our currency at the Standard Hourly Wage (SHW)



http://www.archania.org/money_as_the_relationship_between_labor_and_consumer_goods.html

Doesn't anybody here have any objections to my proposal for a new currency system? It is really hard to develop things without insightful negative feedback....
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 12:41:43 pm by Zanthius » Logged
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