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Author Topic: Augmented reality game to save the world  (Read 989 times)
Death 999
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Re: Augmented reality game to save the world
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2018, 10:21:05 pm »

Deus, what is that… thing you wrote, there?

You're seriously equivocating between Iraqi MWDs and Russian press freedom problems on the one hand, and on the other hand between… wait, where is it illegal to debate the Armenian Genocide? Turkey?
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Zanthius
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Re: Augmented reality game to save the world
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2018, 10:37:43 pm »

We are political activists from the European Union, where it is illegal to say things that might cause gross offense, insult certain religious constructs or debate the exact number of armenians killed a hundred years ago in history.

None of this is illegal here. I think it might be illegal to threaten people. It might also be illegal to deny someone to study or work because of their religion. Some of these rules might be a bit silly, but it is trivial compared to how little freedom of speech people have in most dictatorships.

Anyhow. This is a proposal for a game, not a proposal for spreading the European Union. Lots of things are bad both in the EU and in the US. In fact, players would get blue points from finding proof of corruption anywhere. There is lots of corruption in the EU and the US, so you might very well get blue points from exposing corruption in western democracies. I just don't think it would serve any purpose to spread humans rights propaganda in western democracies since the governments already are agreeing to all of that.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 11:05:43 pm by Zanthius » Logged
Deus Siddis
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Re: Augmented reality game to save the world
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2018, 11:21:38 pm »

You're seriously equivocating between Iraqi MWDs and Russian press freedom problems on the one hand,

I am connecting these three dots:

2003: "Saddam Hussein is a horrible dictator that oppresses his people, he will blow up the world!"
Result: Disastrous Intervention.

2011: "Muammar Gaddafi is a horrible dictator that oppresses his people, he will blow up the world!"
Result: Disastrous Intervention.

Now: "Vladimir Putin is a horrible dictator that oppresses his people, he will blow up the world!"
Result: Pending.

(The Bashar Al Assad intervention's result is also pending as of this writing.)

So we hear about how horrible this foreign "regime" is from somewhere outside of the west. Then we go to war with them. Then we find out it wasn't actually so bad before our war and that we made the situation tenfold worse.  At the same time, we ignore the problems internal to our own nations and suffer costs of all kinds resulting from the war.  And then we do it again.

wait, where is it illegal to debate the Armenian Genocide? Turkey?

France.

Did you seriously not know France illegalized denial of various genocides?  It comes with the penalty of up to a 5 year prison sentence, IIRC.
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Zanthius
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Re: Augmented reality game to save the world
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2018, 11:26:50 pm »

So we hear about how horrible this foreign "regime" is from somewhere outside of the west. Then we go to war with them. Then we find out it wasn't actually so bad before our war and that we made the situation tenfold worse.  At the same time, we ignore the problems internal to our own nations and suffer costs of all kinds resulting from the war.  And then we do it again.

Has anyone here proposed to go to war? Spreading human rights propaganda can hardly be considered an act of war, and since this is a game and not a country, you would, in any case, be going to war against a game then.

« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 11:32:50 pm by Zanthius » Logged
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Re: Augmented reality game to save the world
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2018, 12:01:59 am »

You're seriously equivocating between Iraqi MWDs and Russian press freedom problems on the one hand,

I am connecting these three dots:

2003: "Saddam Hussein is a horrible dictator that oppresses his people, he will blow up the world!"
Result: Disastrous Intervention.

2011: "Muammar Gaddafi is a horrible dictator that oppresses his people, he will blow up the world!"
Result: Disastrous Intervention.

Now: "Vladimir Putin is a horrible dictator that oppresses his people, he will blow up the world!"
Result: Pending.

Those three are massively dissimilar. 2003 was a disastrous intervention founded on lies, no argument there. In 2011, there was an active civil war already going on without Western intervention, and the tendency at that time was that Gaddafi would win and was already killing a large number of people. We blew up part of his armed forces so he couldn't do that any more; the civil war continued for some time and resulted in a mess, but it's not a worse mess than would have resulted with no intervention. And In the present case, the proposal is to make a VR video game.

I can squint and see a connection between the first two; the third is… dissimilar.


(The Bashar Al Assad intervention's result is also pending as of this writing.)

I'm pretty sure that Putin's intervention to save Assad from the fate of Libya will end up working, yes.

wait, where is it illegal to debate the Armenian Genocide? Turkey?

France.

Did you seriously not know France illegalized denial of various genocides?  It comes with the penalty of up to a 5 year prison sentence, IIRC.

That article doesn't exactly support the precise example you presented. It says, "While the new motion is yet to be passed by France’s Senate, backers of the amendment hope for it to be implemented by the end of the year" (that being 2016). It is not clear that this effort succeeded; I have not been able to find evidence of it. However, if you were to change that to 'deny that the Holocaust occurred', yes it would be illegal. Your initial claim that it is illegal to "debate the exact number of armenians killed" is blatantly false, even if you change 'Armenians' to 'Jews'.
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Re: Augmented reality game to save the world
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2018, 01:43:25 am »

None of this is illegal here.

That does not seem totally true.  Every country has weird laws that "regulate" freedom of speech.  In western Europe they often fall under the guise of protecting ordinary people's egos or preventing dangerous propaganda from being spread.  In other countries speech is limited to prevent a deity from being offended (Saudi Arabia and Iran come to mind) or to prevent undermining of the country by mysterious foreign powers (America in the era of McCarthyism and now again and Russia in just about anytime in about the last century).

But in any case the result is the state can punish word crimes.  And they can slowly introduce expansions of word crimes' definitions and punishments and use older precedents of such laws to help justify the creation of new ones.

Has anyone here proposed to go to war? Spreading human rights propaganda can hardly be considered an act of war, and since this is a game and not a country, you would, in any case, be going to war against a game then.

I was specifically responding to your statement that journalists who were critical of Putin were being disappeared.  My response is that that could be true.  But it also sounds a lot like military propaganda we often see coming out of America and directed at its enemies and competitors.  It is difficult to determine which is the case since presumably the assassin does not advertise what they have done.

In contrast, speech laws are readily visible and advertised by their enforcers.  They have to be to function as laws.  Thus, judging the "freedom level" of a nation by its speech laws seems way more practical and gets us out of conspiracy theory territory (assuming that is desired).

In 2011, there was an active civil war already going on without Western intervention, and the tendency at that time was that Gaddafi would win and was already killing a large number of people. We blew up part of his armed forces so he couldn't do that any more; the civil war continued for some time and resulted in a mess, but it's not a worse mess than would have resulted with no intervention.

It is possible the intervention in Libya saved lives.  It is also possible the intervention in Iraq saved lives.  But are these things likely?  Was one a good intervention and the other bad?

I can squint and see a connection between the first two; the third is… dissimilar.

The connection being between conspiracy theories as to a country's secret crimes (murdering journalists, weapons of mass destruction) and deteriorating relations between that country and America.  I am not absolutely against conspiracy theories being used to support a point since they sometimes turn out to be true later on (as was the case with Iraqi weapons of mass destruction) but that does expand the conversation quite a bit in a lot of ways.  (Like whether or not Russia was the only country that would have benefited from those journalists being assassinated.)

That article doesn't exactly support the precise example you presented. It says, "While the new motion is yet to be passed by France’s Senate, backers of the amendment hope for it to be implemented by the end of the year" (that being 2016). It is not clear that this effort succeeded; I have not been able to find evidence of it. However, if you were to change that to 'deny that the Holocaust occurred', yes it would be illegal. Your initial claim that it is illegal to "debate the exact number of armenians killed" is blatantly false, even if you change 'Armenians' to 'Jews'.

Huh, I thought I remembered them having a list of several genocides that were taboo including a number of African ones.  I suppose I must have conflated proposals for further expansion of the law with what was already enforced.  Still the point is the same, every country enforces speech crime laws.

Also relevant to the topic, it is worth asking if the specific flavor of these laws is designed to reflect the values and morals of the populace, not the government.  That is, while a government may use speech laws for its own ends, the rationale for them is carefully chosen to be as palatable to the populace as possible.  So does Putin and his government want to oppress homosexuals or is attempting to suppress homosexuality desirably to the majority of Russians and their government is just using this as a guise to further limit their speech?
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Re: Augmented reality game to save the world
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2018, 09:48:21 am »

I was specifically responding to your statement that journalists who were critical of Putin were being disappeared.  My response is that that could be true.  

Yeah. People just coincidently disappear when they are critical of Putin. Or, maybe you think the US is killing them to make it look like Putin is doing it?

In contrast, speech laws are readily visible and advertised by their enforcers.  They have to be to function as laws.  Thus, judging the "freedom level" of a nation by its speech laws seems way more practical and gets us out of conspiracy theory territory (assuming that is desired).

You cannot necessarily get an objective evaluation of freedom of speech from speech laws either since laws might not be enforced to the same degree in different countries. In Brazil, for example, they have had laws against drunk driving for a long time, but people continue to drive while under the influence of alcohol since the police haven't been able to enforce the law.

This is what I think many Americans have a very poor understanding of. The solution to all your problems isn't just less government. Many of the countries in the world with weak governments are completely chaotic, with tons of garbage everywhere.


So does Putin and his government want to oppress homosexuals or is attempting to suppress homosexuality desirably to the majority of Russians and their government is just using this as a guise to further limit their speech?

Human rights propaganda doesn't necessarily need to be against Putin. It can also be intended for changing the mindset of the Russian population, for example, in regard to homosexuality.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 10:23:20 am by Zanthius » Logged
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Re: Augmented reality game to save the world
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2018, 12:15:28 pm »

Here is an example of how a human rights propaganda sheet could look:



And here from google translater:



Could also make similar sheets for China, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, and other dictatorships.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 12:46:22 pm by Zanthius » Logged
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Re: Augmented reality game to save the world
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2018, 12:47:38 pm »

Yeah. People just coincidently disappear when they are critical of Putin. Or, maybe you think the US is killing them to make it look like Putin is doing it?

The way you're wording it, it may seem like the moment a person says something critical of Putin, they're going to get assassinated. This is simply not true. It's not yet Stalinist USSR or North Korea here yet, nobody's going to do anything to you for telling a joke about Putin. However, there are indeed serious problems with freedom of speech in Russia. With homosexuals, it is actually illegal now to "promote" homosexuality among minors, although what constitutes such "promotion" is up to debate. Some organizations (like Deti-404, or 404 Children in English, whose objective is specifically to help LGBT teenagers) have already had trouble with the law because of that, but they survive nonetheless. And also on the topic of homosexuality, I don't think it's specifically Putin who promotes homophobia in Russia. The Russian society is already homophobic as it is, Putin simply exploits this homophobia to grow his power base. After all, people will readily hand you more power when there is a scapegoat that they're seriously afraid of.

With the mass media specifically, the vast majority of TV channels are pro-Putin, while on the Internet the opinions are more diverse. You can find pretty much the entire political spectrum on the forums and the social media, and there are some media outlets on the Russian segment of the Internet that are anti-Putin. Some of them are blocked in Russia by the Roskomnadzor (the main Internet censorship organization in Russia), some are not.

None of this is to say that there is no risk that one could be imprisoned or killed in Russia for voicing a dissenting opinion. There are anecdotes that say that some people were jailed for making a repost on the social media. What the odds are for getting imprisoned (let alone killed) for political reasons in Russia, I cannot say.
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Re: Augmented reality game to save the world
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2018, 02:43:53 pm »

None of this is to say that there is no risk that one could be imprisoned or killed in Russia for voicing a dissenting opinion. There are anecdotes that say that some people were jailed for making a repost on the social media. What the odds are for getting imprisoned (let alone killed) for political reasons in Russia, I cannot say.

Well, at least I can guarantee you that the odds of getting caught for having dissenting opinions is going to be a lot higher in the future because of more advanced surveillance technology:





Quote
AI Beats Humans At Emotional Recognition Test In Landmark Study

https://www.iflscience.com/technology/ai-beats-humans-emotional-recognition-test-landmark-study/

As you can see, the algorithms have improved a lot during the last years. Now it is only a matter of time before dictators are able to implement these algorithms for massive surveillance.
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Re: Augmented reality game to save the world
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2018, 03:23:54 pm »

Well, in any case there are two ways to go when a new technology emerges - try to suppress it or try to adapt to it. Trying to suppress a technology rarely works out well.
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Re: Augmented reality game to save the world
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2018, 03:35:43 pm »

Well, in any case there are two ways to go when a new technology emerges - try to suppress it or try to adapt to it. Trying to suppress a technology rarely works out well.

I don't think you needed to develop the Tsar Bomba just not to suppress nuclear technologies. You can develop nuclear technologies for peaceful purposes, such as for power generation. Similarly, I don't think we need to develop killer robots and massive surveillance systems just not to suppress machine learning technologies. You can use machine learning algorithms to do many other things.

Lots of the nuclear weapons from the cold war are in a bad condition now, both in Russia and in the US. The US military needs to use a lot of resources now just on maintaining the nuclear weapon systems from the cold war. I guess the situation is somewhat similar in Russia.

Now you want to introduce another type of weapons, which might become a lot worse than the Tsar Bomba. If we lose control of super advanced killer robots we are not necessarily going to be able to adapt. They will kill you just as easily as they beat you in chess.
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Re: Augmented reality game to save the world
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2018, 03:58:31 pm »

Yeah. People just coincidently disappear when they are critical of Putin. Or, maybe you think the US is killing them to make it look like Putin is doing it?

I think both scenarios are perfectly plausible.  Both nations have very much the motive and capability to do this.  And I believe both have the history of conducting assassinations.

You cannot necessarily get an objective evaluation of freedom of speech from speech laws either since laws might not be enforced to the same degree in different countries. In Brazil, for example, they have had laws against drunk driving for a long time, but people continue to drive while under the influence of alcohol since the police haven't been able to enforce the law.

This is true, but I guess it just brings us back to the idea that you really cannot tell what is going on in other nations you do not have direct experience in.  Each situation is complex and opaque when viewed from the outside.

Human rights propaganda doesn't necessarily need to be against Putin. It can also be intended for changing the mindset of the Russian population, for example, in regard to homosexuality.

This I guess is getting very broadly focused then...  How does (for example) convincing the Russian populace to embrace homosexuality stop killer robots from destroying the world?

If we lose control of super advanced killer robots we are not necessarily going to be able to adapt. They will kill you just as easily as they beat you in chess.

Are your chances of survival against these things better if your nation outlaws or heavily regulates what kinds of firearms its populace has access to or does not develop a nuclear arsenal that might be useful for clearing swathes of killer robots at a time?

I am really worried about western European populations now, who may soon be facing swarms of killer robots while in the worst cases not even holding pointed knives.  You need to demand that your democratic governments remove all bans on weapons of all sizes and degrees of sophistication as long as they are not too AI augmented that they themselves become a threat.  No amount of firepower will for certain be enough so you need to be as well armed as possible to maximize your chances and the chances of the human race.
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Re: Augmented reality game to save the world
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2018, 04:19:42 pm »

This I guess is getting very broadly focused then...  How does (for example) convincing the Russian populace to embrace homosexuality stop killer robots from destroying the world?

It's a package thing. If you think that homosexuals and people with dissenting opinions should have the same rights as you, then you are also more likely to think that the government shouldn't be surveilling them. And if the government doesn't have any good reason to engage in massive surveillance, then you are also less likely to be surveilled yourself.

If you think people from other countries should have the same rights as you, you are probably less likely to think it is a good idea to make killer robots to murder people from other countries. If all countries believe in human rights, it is much less likely that we will develop super advanced killer robots and lose control of them.

With power comes responsibility. Dictatorships simply aren't responsible enough to have such powerful weapons. It is like giving the Tsar bomba to a 5 year old kid. Who knows what the kid will do with it...
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Re: Augmented reality game to save the world
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2018, 06:09:10 pm »

It's a package thing. If you think that homosexuals and people with dissenting opinions should have the same rights as you, then you are also more likely to think that the government shouldn't be surveilling them. And if the government doesn't have any good reason to engage in massive surveillance, then you are also less likely to be surveilled yourself.

That does not follow, since there is always some group in society people will see as criminals and potentially want surveilled.  Rapists, murderers, thieves, drug traffickers, gun traffickers, people traffickers, killer robot engineers.  Unless you advocate for total anarchy where there are no crimes and no criminals, there will always be many cases where surveillance of some people by authorities can be justified to the populace.

If you think people from other countries should have the same rights as you, you are probably less likely to think it is a good idea to make killer robots to murder people from other countries. If all countries believe in human rights, it is much less likely that we will develop super advanced killer robots and lose control of them.

Unless you feel that someone labeled a "dictator" by your media and the ultimate evil of the present moment is a threat to your society and you need new and better weapons to protect yourself from said dictator.  New and better weapons like, say, killer robots.

Dictatorships simply aren't responsible enough to have such powerful weapons. It is like giving the Tsar bomba to a 5 year old kid. Who knows what the kid will do with it...

Yeah, because they might detonate the Tsar Bomba once over a deserted region and then scrap the project soon after?  Because that is what the "dictatorship" that actually had a Tsar Bomba actually did with it.  How irresponsible of them.
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