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News: Paul Reiche and Fred Ford want to continue the story they started when they created Star Control II — The Ur-Quan Masters. «Happy days and jubilation!» «But wait!» «There is something wrong here... something which makes my sheath retract and my talons ooze.» «Please, Captain, we need your help!»

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Author Topic: Dimensional fatigue projectors  (Read 743 times)
PRH
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Re: Dimensional fatigue projectors
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2018, 12:27:18 am »

While that is extremely flattering to Death 999, you'll have to excuse me if I don't place much value in your judgment.
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Zanthius
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Re: Dimensional fatigue projectors
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2018, 12:30:11 am »

While that is extremely flattering to Death 999, you'll have to excuse me if I don't place much value in your judgment.

How many professors do you know? There can be a huge difference between a professor at Harvard and a professor at a small unimportant university. Most of the professors I know aren't working at Harvard. Many of the professors at Harvard are probably smarter and better informed than Death 999, especially within their field of research.

Anyhow... lots of professors are not necessarily well informed outside their field of research. They might also suffer from thinking within a "narrative" which prevents them from being able to consider certain possibilities.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 12:42:09 am by Zanthius » Logged
PRH
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Re: Dimensional fatigue projectors
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2018, 12:41:29 am »

Again, what your are saying is probably true (though not necessarily so), however, you are ignoring one very basic fact. A person's general intelligence is not enough for them to be qualified to argue on a scientific topic - what you need is expertise. Even the world's best scientists have been known to make extremely dumb remarks on topics outside their field of expertise. That is why it is experts who you need to talk to in order to test your hypothesis, not random people on the Internet. Any non-expert will be easier to fool on a given topic than an expert, regardless of either person's general intelligence (and if a person's general intelligence is too low, they won't be able to become an expert in any scientific field anyway).
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Zanthius
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Re: Dimensional fatigue projectors
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2018, 12:48:04 am »

Even the world's best scientists have been known to make extremely dumb remarks on topics outside their field of expertise.

But how do you know which experts to ask? You think we should ask the physicists? But why not the neuroscientists? If you want to know how a drug affects the 5HT2a receptor, you better ask a neuroscientist that specializes in exactly that receptor system. If you want to know if the animations I made generate dimensional fatigue, then maybe we need to ask a physicist, but what exactly do we mean by "dimensional fatigue"?

The question I am curious about is why those animations produce effects that are similar to 5HT2a receptor agonists.

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PRH
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Re: Dimensional fatigue projectors
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2018, 12:55:23 am »

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but what exactly do we mean by "dimensional fatigue"?

That's the first question you need to answer before even formulating your hypothesis.

I assumed that it is physicists who would be able to test a hypothesis about "dimensional fatigue" because in the Star Control universe, the DF phenomenon definitely lies in the field of physics (more specifically, the physics of spacetime). Neuroscience has absolutely nothing to do with it. Why would you want to attach that term to a phenomenon that lies in the field of neuroscience, however real it might be?
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Zanthius
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Re: Dimensional fatigue projectors
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2018, 01:00:58 am »

I assumed that it is physicists who would be able to test a hypothesis about "dimensional fatigue" because in the Star Control universe, the DF phenomenon definitely lies in the field of physics (more specifically, the physics of spacetime). Neuroscience has absolutely nothing to do with it. Why would you want to attach that term to a phenomenon that lies in the field of neuroscience, however real it might be?

I agree if you think about the dimensional fatigue technology in the portal spawner given to you by the Arilou. That certainly seems to be within the realm of physics. How else would you be able to create a portal to quasispace?

However, the dimensional fatigue technology used by the Androsynth is supposed to have generated waves which made individuals exposed to the waves able to see into a different phase of reality...  That could be more a matter of how those waves interacted with the brain organs of the Androsynth.

And yeah. Ultimately it is a question of physics if we live in a universe with more than 3 dimensions. But if we live in a universe with more than 3 dimensions, there could be mechanisms that opened our perception to those dimensions.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 01:13:26 am by Zanthius » Logged
PRH
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Re: Dimensional fatigue projectors
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2018, 01:12:35 am »

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However, the dimensional fatigue technology used by the Androsynth is supposed to have generated waves which made individuals exposed to the waves able to see into a different phase of reality...  That could be more a matter of how those waves interacted with the brain organs of the Androsynth.

Only partially. There still has to be a physical phenomenon (the waves you've mentioned) that interacted with the Androsynth brains. While any neurological effects from watching the swirling rainbow images you've shown at the beginning of this thread are perfectly explainable through known physical phenomena, and are actually very well-known. If you believe otherwise, it is your job to convince the scientific community that you are correct, and the prevailing scientific view is wrong or incomplete. Good luck on that.
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Zanthius
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Re: Dimensional fatigue projectors
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2018, 01:16:04 am »

While any neurological effects from watching the swirling rainbow images you've shown at the beginning of this thread are perfectly explainable through known physical phenomena, and are actually very well-known.

Really? I have been looking all over for research related to the neurological effects of watching such spirals. If you know of any, please share.

EDIT: I actually found something here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_aftereffect

Seems like they have some theories... but I wouldn't say it appears to be very well understood.

Quote
Neurons coding a particular movement reduce their responses with time of exposure to a constantly moving stimulus; this is neural adaptation. Neural adaptation also reduces the spontaneous, baseline activity of these same neurons when responding to a stationary stimulus (see, for example, Barlow & Hill, 1963; Srinivasan & Dvorak, 1979; Glasser, Tsui, Pack, & Tadin, 2011). One theory is that perception of stationary objects, for example rocks beside a waterfall, is coded as the balance among the baseline responses of neurons coding all possible directions of motion. Neural adaptation of neurons stimulated by downward movement reduces their baseline activity, tilting the balance in favor of upward movement.

Anyhow, I believe that the 5HT2a receptor is involved in more or less the same mechanisms. So this isn't necessarily incompatible with my theory that they work in a similar manner to 5HT2a receptor agonists.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 01:29:35 am by Zanthius » Logged
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Re: Dimensional fatigue projectors
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2018, 01:29:39 am »

Right. I'm not qualified to discuss any specific neurological effects, but regardless, there seems to be no evidence that suggests any previously unknown physical phenomena at work.
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Re: Dimensional fatigue projectors
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2018, 01:32:48 am »

Right. I'm not qualified to discuss any specific neurological effects, but regardless, there seems to be no evidence that suggests any previously unknown physical phenomena at work.

DMT (N,N-dimetyltryptamin) is one of the strongest 5HT2a receptor agonists we know of. The researcher that has done most research on this compound, seems to think there might be more at work:



https://www.amazon.com/DMT-Molecule-Revolutionary-Near-Death-Experiences/dp/0892819278

And here is a guy arguing against you based on his experience with DMT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V63fPbFeC84



We have strong reasons to have evolved to "ignore" the higher dimensional structure of reality if there is such a thing. If our survival only depends on the 3 dimensions we perceive, it would be very bad for us to perceive the other dimensions, since that would decrease our attention to the 3 dimensions our survival depends on.

You have evolved see what you need to see to survive. And that is all. Distractions are a real problem for survival.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 11:48:29 am by Zanthius » Logged
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Re: Dimensional fatigue projectors
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2018, 09:32:41 am »

Here is a diagram showing how I imagine these dimensional fatigue projectors to activate the 5HT2A receptor system compared to magic mushrooms and DMT.



Even though they seem to activate the 5HT2A receptor system much less than magic mushrooms and DMT, they have the advantage that you can stare at them for as long as you want.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 09:37:01 am by Zanthius » Logged
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Re: Dimensional fatigue projectors
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2018, 09:49:31 am »

If you believe otherwise, it is your job to convince the scientific community that you are correct, and the prevailing scientific view is wrong or incomplete.

Do you believe that most scientists think that the prevailing scientific view is complete? If anything is pseudoscientific, it is the belief that our current understanding of the universe is complete. Science differs from religion and dogma mostly because we believe there always is room for improvement.
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Death 999
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Re: Dimensional fatigue projectors
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2018, 03:39:55 pm »

Well, I do have a PhD in physics, so his faith isn't entirely misplaced.

And with any of that influence you grant me, Zanthius:

1) Your concern with uncontrolled and/or unethically used AI is actually a very good one. But I really doubt that starting a vaporware project is a good strategy. If that is your primary concern, offer to volunteer for MIRI or the FHI, or in the likely event that your skill set does not line up with what they need, give them money.

2) The existence of a 'spiritual molecule' seems to be an interesting fact about our brains, not about the structure of the universe.
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Zanthius
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Re: Dimensional fatigue projectors
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2018, 04:44:48 pm »

Well, I do have a PhD in physics, so his faith isn't entirely misplaced.

So what? Eliezer Yudkowsky doesn't have any higher education, and I think you would agree that he is just as smart and well-informed as yourself.

1) Your concern with uncontrolled and/or unethically used AI is actually a very good one. But I really doubt that starting a vaporware project is a good strategy. If that is your primary concern, offer to volunteer for MIRI or the FHI, or in the likely event that your skill set does not line up with what they need, give them money.

Well, at least I have a proposal that *might* work. What kind of projects does MIRI or FHI have to make Russia and China stop making killer robots? I read Inadequate Equilibria by Eliezer Yudkowsky, and he didn't write anything about that. I also listened to him talk to Sam Harris about the dangers with emerging AI's, but he didn't give me any idea about how he would make Russia and China stop making killer robots. Yuval Noah Harari is the one that has most clearly defined the problem to me, but even he doesn't really have any idea about how to prevent China and Russia from developing killer robots.

And I don't think we have a lot of time to ramble around. During the next 10 years, Chinese and Russian killer robots are going to improve immensely. The biggest problem here isn't necessarily the emergence of AI, but the lack of trust between superpowers. Unless we can find a way to build trust between superpowers, there is going to be an arms race to make more intelligent and destructive killer robots.

2) The existence of a 'spiritual molecule' seems to be an interesting fact about our brains, not about the structure of the universe.

Most of the theories that try to combine general relativity and quantum mechanics have more than 3 dimensions. If we live in a universe with more than 3 dimensions and have evolved to ignore other dimensions or "phases of reality", there could be mechanisms which decrease our tendency to ignore other dimensions or "phases of reality". Activation of the 5HT2A receptor system could be such a mechanism.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 09:24:30 pm by Zanthius » Logged
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Re: Dimensional fatigue projectors
« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2018, 02:57:14 am »

Most of the theories that try to combine general relativity and quantum mechanics have more than 3 dimensions. If we live in a universe with more than 3 dimensions and have evolved to ignore other dimensions or "phases of reality", there could be mechanisms which decrease our tendency to ignore other dimensions or "phases of reality". Activation of the 5HT2A receptor system could be such a mechanism.

Well, at least now you've managed to come up with something that resembles a scientific hypothesis (because previously it looked like you just ignored Occam's razor and went with a more outlandish explanation where a simpler one would suffice). Your hypothesis seems to consist of the following points:

1. Our universe has more than three dimensions.
2. Our bodies are capable of perceiving more than three dimensions.
3. Our ability to perceive other dimensions is suppressed by some mechanism in our nervous system.
4. The activation of the 5HT2A receptor blocks the mechanism that suppresses our perception of other dimensions.

Each of these points needs to be confirmed in the order given here (because each subsequent point follows logically from the previous one), and the confirmation cannot be a simple thought experiment. Each point must be backed by hard empirical evidence. Point 1 seems to lie entirely in the realm of physics, while points 2 through 4 would require expertise in the relevant fields in both physics and human biology.
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