The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release => General UQM Discussion => Topic started by: Fsi-Dib on July 22, 2003, 11:29:59 pm



Title: Eeeevil!
Post by: Fsi-Dib on July 22, 2003, 11:29:59 pm
Mainly continueing (wtf?) the "who is evil" conversation on "Melnorme Exposed", where it doesn't fit. So we can continue it here. Simple! Yay!

Mainly I first start to think of the EVIL in Earthlings. Greed, oh yes, the greed. If earthlings wouldn't be greedy there wouldn't be an option to name the league as "The Empire of MEEE!". Well, compared to Ur-Quans, humans ain't so bad ... not counting some individuals that live.


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Ivan Ivanov on July 23, 2003, 01:52:10 am
Quote
...

Hmm, good pretty much has an overkill...


Argh!
I cannot belive this!
How can you bring Starcontrol down to Good vs Evil?!?
The point of the whole game, it's massege, is that there is no good or evil. I think that the story of the Ur-Quan and Spathi's fear of The Ultimate Evil (tm) makes it quite clear. Besides who in the hell are we to say what is good and what is evil, the definition of good and evil is different among cultures on Earth, so how can you relate it to inter-species relations?


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Death 999 on July 23, 2003, 03:23:35 am
I am amused that you can quite completely form warring factions out of the 'good' side. I guess you're setting the bar a little low?

Of course, this is because it is silly. Ivan is right. International and inter-species relationships cannot be easily categorized into good and evil, since they tend to be thorough mixtures of the two.


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Volka on July 24, 2003, 12:27:49 am
Hey folks,have I remind you that the game was created by hunams?


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Roelgiox on July 24, 2003, 12:36:20 am
EXCUSSSSEEEEEEEEEEEE ME? HUMANS? PRIII AND FF? They are at least SEMI-DEVINE, and even that title doesn't do them justice!  ;D


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Death 999 on July 24, 2003, 01:27:33 am
Quote
Hey folks,have I remind you that the game was created by hunams?


Hunams who did an unusually good job of making the antagonists not wholly evil.


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Shiver on July 24, 2003, 02:59:21 am
What are you guys talking about?! The Dnyarri are evil incarnate! The Ur-Quan, Kohr-Ah, Ilwrath, Druuge, Mycon, Orz, VUX and Thraddash all tend to lean towards evil, but aren't really.

What was I thinking? The Druuge are also evil. The only thing stopping them from being absolutely evil is their general dislike for battle.


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Death 999 on July 24, 2003, 03:08:55 am
The Druuge may be evil, but they are evil in a realistic self-interested way rather than the evil-for-evil's sake that tends to run rampant in video games.

That does seem to pop up in the Dnyarri, but it's OK because
A) they are mind-controllers, why would they have any idea of social law?
B) they are not our enemies in the story.
C) as the chmmr say, "If there is such a thing as pure evil, this is it." IF. It is not taken for granted. We may find that SC2 was a few parts of a Rashomon-like pastiche, in which Greenish and the 'Quan and the Dnyarri all have skewed views of the actual events.


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: J on July 24, 2003, 10:58:42 am
You cant label things "good" and "evil"

Thats the entire point and idea behind Starcontrol 2.

The world is not black and white.

When you start labeling things good and evil, you sound like George W. Bush. The lowest IQ president of the US ever. And thats not an exaggeration. He has an IQ of 89


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Ivan Ivanov on July 24, 2003, 01:55:17 pm
Quote
What are you guys talking about?! The Dnyarri are evil incarnate! The Ur-Quan, Kohr-Ah, Ilwrath, Druuge, Mycon, Orz, VUX and Thraddash all tend to lean towards evil, but aren't really.


The Dnyarii dont have to be evil. Maybe mind cotroling is just their way of surving. Look at them they look like someone crossed a cows brain and a frog, they have no claws teeth or anything, the only way of defending themselves from sabertooth tigers and such was - I guess - mind cotrol

As for the both Ur-Quan races - no they are not evil, they are just... affraid. And because of that fear they kinda lost their contact with reality... but then again, who's to say that for example the Syreen wont evolve into mind-controling enslavers...

As for the Ilwrath - well it may be hard to say that a species that pins down other aliens to altars and eats their internal organs isn't entirely evil, but what's wrong with being religious!

And all the other species... I cant understand why did you call them evil.

The Druuge are just selfish capitalist cowards - nothing evil about that.

The Mycons are... hell I never could understand why anyone would call them evil they didn't do anything  wrong.  The destruction of Syra was just a classic of Mother Nature In Action: two species fighting for survival - both needed the planet as a place to live, the strongest one took it. Well yeah they're are both sentient so technicaly they could get along but every other race says that Mycons are like stuck in the 60'.
The Kohr-Ah lost their contact with reality because they went to the other room for a second and they just cant hear it. But the Mycons... the Mycons they pluged their ears and started screaming "LALALALAALALA I CANT HEAR YOU!!!!" But it definitely doesn't mean they're evil

Orz - We know nothing about them. While it seems that they may pose a threat to us/the galaxy/the universe in some time it does not mean that they are evil.

The Vux are just xenophobes and the Thraddash like to start fights. It's not nice but it is far from being Eeeeevil! Like I said Eeeevil does not exist. It's just a simplification made up by the hunams. The hunams obsereved their world and saw a few nice things and some bad things, they added up all the nice thigs and called it Good, and added up all the bad things and called it Eeeeeevil. Of course the one who desided what is nice and what is not was a hunam.
Do you think it would be nice to get your head cut off by a butcher?
Do you eat hamburgers?
Do you get the point?
It's all relative.


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Kohr-Ah_Primat on July 24, 2003, 10:59:54 pm
Plus, in order to turn this into a black and white state of affairs, you need to actually define evil. What is it by your definition? The state of being under which one commits acts that inconveniences others? That harms others? What do you define as that fine line between 'okay' and 'not okay'? Killing? Enslaving? Torturing? Manipulating others for personal gain?

In each of those cases 'evil' is completely different.
The Kohr-Ah don't believe in torture, don't believe in manipulating others, don't believe in humiliating other races nor do they act out of profit at the expense of others. Yet most would define them as evil.

The Syreen however do enslave others, do manipulate others for personal gain, and do kill the Mycons in the name of vengeance. However, most people would define them as 'good' as well as perfectly justified.

So, yes. You can't really define any race as evil in terms of black and white, because none of them really fit the paradigm. Though I have to agree with Shiver; if any race comes close to completely 'evil', in my opinion it would have to be the Druuge and the Dnyarri.


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Gill_Bates on July 24, 2003, 11:31:48 pm
You can try me. I'm evil....


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Lukipela on July 25, 2003, 02:52:56 am
And feeding the debate, I'll quote/misquote a book by Terry Pratchett.

There is a debate between a priset of the tolerant Omnian faith and an old witch. The priest holds that it is not a question of black and white anymore, there are just so many shades of grey.

To which the witch replies : No there aint. there's just white that has gotten grubby. And it all begins with thinking of people as things."

"Surely there it is more complicated than that. There are many crimes worse than thinking that way."

"Yes, but they all begin when you start thinking of people as things"

Now what has this got to do with the debate? Simply that when you debate good'n evil, you should always keep in mind that if you believe in the concept of good or evil, shades of grey aren't really an option. There's good, and there's bad. Period. Otherwise you may as well argue, that from the point of the torturer, torture is a just thing.

And if you don't believe in good and evil, merley in actions and reactions, then all of this is moot. In that case, all of these things are simply consequences of choices made long ago. As to the intentions of those who made the choices, well they are moot as well.

Just to give you a starting point Primat, "People as things". That fits both the Dnyarri and the Druuge neatly into the fold, and several other races/members of races as well.


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on July 25, 2003, 03:25:16 am
nice story... please do a summary, i didn't read it it was too long....almost fell asleep


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Lukipela on July 25, 2003, 06:32:17 pm
Well... Maybe you could start practicing your reading? You know, start reading the paper every day, and after a month or two, progress to actual books. When you've gotten that far, most of the stuff on these boards should be no problem.

Either that, or drink more coffee.


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on July 25, 2003, 07:47:25 pm
I can read, but the story is long and boring.... :(


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Omni-Sama on July 25, 2003, 09:02:08 pm
Haha... you should know a post can only be a maximum of 6 sentences... or is it words?  It if's too long, people like me start to confuse words for food... then we get hungry... and when I'm hungry, I'm usually angry.

I remember having a big debate about whether the Druuge were evil or not.  I say they're evil because I think their ships, slave-based system of trade, and demanours are pretty nasty and evil in essence.  Others told me they were just greedy and that evil didn't run through their blood.

I'd argue otherwise, especially when the butt end of those Maulers are facing your direction.


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Lukipela on July 26, 2003, 04:27:09 pm
Ah, the old six sentces rule. Well, I suppose that theoretical debates and quotes can prove boring and hard to understand for some, but a debate about good and evil can hardly become anything without that...

The Druuge are a prime example of thinking of people as things, so I'd call them evil.

Oh, and btw, welcome back Omni, haven't seen you in a while.


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Shiver on July 28, 2003, 07:30:56 am
*Bangs head against wall repeatedly*

Quote
You can't label things "good" and "evil". Thats the entire point and idea behind Starcontrol 2.

You could not be more DEAD WRONG! A person can go around calling all people, places, and objects "barf" for all I care because it's entirely possible to label anything as one will. The second sentence is even more laughable. Paul and Fred did not say "Let's make a game that proves good and evil are falty concepts" when they started to put this game together. What they did do is make a game with nearly 30 different species that are not one-dimensional.


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Chrispy on July 28, 2003, 11:37:37 pm
yes, but the indeviduals that supported slavery were evil. So i guess the argument would be that the indevidual druuge that support slavery are evil.


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Lukipela on July 29, 2003, 12:49:50 am
And, seeing as the entire Drruge culture seems to be based on slavery, that makes a large amount of them evil. the trouble here is that we (obviously) know very little of everday life, be it in the Crimson Corporation, or as an Acolyte of Dogar and Kazon. There are probably any number of different sides and factions in every alien culture, all with different agendas, goals and morals. However, we only see the general outcome, which is either what a majority of the population supports, or what a small and powerful elite has decided upon. therefore we can only label the races generally good or evil, not specifically. To do so, would Chrispy so eloquently points out, be a generalization of an entire race.


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Chrispy on July 29, 2003, 04:15:45 am
dont understand that last sentence ???


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Lukipela on July 29, 2003, 03:34:32 pm
Possibly I misspelled that word but I'm too lazy to check (don't hate me Nic ;) ). What I meant was that I agree with you on the idea that individuals may have different views than the race as a whole.


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Death 999 on July 29, 2003, 07:33:48 pm
Quote
dont understand that last sentence ???


There is a good reason for that. Namely, the structure of the sentence is sort of inside-out (though still correct, up to repunctuation). I'll explain.

Quote
To do so, would Chrispy so eloquently points out, be a generalization of an entire race.


repunctuated, that comes out as

"To do so would, Chrispy so eloquently points out, be a generalization of an entire race."

Subject: "To do so" == To label a race as specifically good or evil (refers to the previous sentence)
Verb: "would be"
Predicate nominative: "a generalization of an entire race"
A clause modifying the rest of the sentence: "Chrispy so eloquently points out"

I am not sure what kind of clause it is. It seems to be invoking indirect discourse, effectively saying:
"Chrispy is pointing out that to do so would be a generalization of an entire race."


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Chrispy on July 29, 2003, 07:47:24 pm
thats ok, i get it now. But as it was, it was half way between agreeing with me or asking me a question.


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Lukipela on July 30, 2003, 03:07:05 pm
Eh.. just looked at it myself and it is simply missing an "as". The full sentence should be :

To do so, would as Chrispy so eloquently points out, be a generalization of an entire race.
That's what you get for writing while asleep.


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Death 999 on July 30, 2003, 07:45:32 pm
I stand by my version. This version still needs no comma before the 'would' and needs one after it -- because 'would' is not part of the clause.

edit: this is on topic! I'm being evil!


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Chrispy on July 30, 2003, 08:15:54 pm
thats prolly what confused me.


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Lukipela on July 31, 2003, 10:24:49 pm
i'll concede that the first comma is unneccessary,  but I don't think it needs one after the would. I blame all confusion and discord in this evil topic on the differences between english and my native languages. ;)


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: neo_b on August 01, 2003, 12:58:57 am
English is Eeeevil!

Sorry, couldn't help myself.  ;D

In US popular culture, there is a trend towards "moral relativism"... Though there is *some* merit to the concept for tolerance's sake, it is, imho, a factor in eroding moral systems.  :-/

Just curious, why does a *whole* race need to be classified as "good" or "evil"?  Does not evil apply to actions and intentions?


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Gill_Bates on August 01, 2003, 06:09:10 pm
I would like to add a few quotes from one of the other games that was also a breakthrough of it's time.


"Stand Aside Evil, Heros Coming Through."

and

"Evil meet sword, Sword, meet Eeeeevil!"



Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Chrispy on August 01, 2003, 08:13:27 pm
yes, actions would show how evil people are.
Since the genaral actions of the ur-quan race is to enslave other races, then they must be evil. The kohr-ra are evil as they kill people. Races like the VUX, and the mycon are hard to say, because they may be following the ur-quan out of fear. The Ilwrath are evil, and that is plain to anyone that talks to them. They may be following their religion, but they still kill because of that, and speaking to them, they seem to enjoy it.


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: neo_b on August 01, 2003, 08:55:48 pm
I sorta meant more on the line that actions are evil, and not that particular races were inherently evil...  I mean, does that mean the original predatory Ur-quan, before Dnyarri tinkering have always been evil?

btw, doesn't it depend on who's point of view?  To use the incredibly stupid Star Wars Ben Kenobi cop-out (paraphrase) "anything's true from a certain point of view".


Dang, and I forgot most of my Austin Power's quotes from Dr. Eeeevil...  :P


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Chrispy on August 01, 2003, 11:16:58 pm
well then i should have said that these races are overall evil, during the timeframe of starcon 2. Afterwards, they may all appologise and be nice :D


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Gill_Bates on August 02, 2003, 01:39:58 am
This reminds me of the time I suggested a story for the sequel of SC2 happening in the time of the first war with the hirarchy where a human renegade would trade with the androsynth and the replies I got were that the human race would not trade with the synths as they were at war with them.
The point is (and was then) that we are dealing with individuals.
Like Zex who is different from the other VUX , you cannot define the entire race with one sentence.
The human race, likewise, isn't defined as a race of people who behave like the american stereotype for normality.
There can be good Kohr Ah and evil Chenjesu, it's all a matter of view point and opinion.


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Chrispy on August 02, 2003, 04:00:58 am
Yep. One of the most complicated races is the ariloo. I can never tell what their up to


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Lukipela on August 02, 2003, 04:02:20 am
The american stereotype? Anyway, going back to the Synths, I think the main point we made against the smugglers idea was that the Earthlings had no Hyperspace capability until the Chenjesu arrived. and after that they were at war, so anything that could fly would be used by the military. There would probably be a state of emergency declared, with martial law and whatnot. Any "Millenium Falcon" type of ship capable of making it to the synth territory and back would probably not be in the hands of an independent contractor such as ourselves. Beisdes, who'd build it?

Also, the Synth have always struck me as a very... coherent race. I might be totally off here, but I think the synth more than any other race are quite alike. Effective, sleek and unemotional. There is no discord. Only unity. Join us. Resistance is futile.


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on August 02, 2003, 04:36:46 am
Quote

"Stand Aside Evil, Heros Coming Through."

and

"Evil meet sword, Sword, meet Eeeeevil!"



If I remember correctly, it was from baldur's gate II right? Minsc says it... YES, now I remember this minsc and the super-space giant hamster. Good game.


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: neo_b on August 02, 2003, 06:08:20 am
Maybe the 'synth were sort of like an anti-Kohr-ah... instead of killing everything else to be safe, they're trying to avoid anything else.


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Yehat_Sympathizer on August 02, 2003, 06:37:33 am
Not entirely relevant to this thread, but I'd like to bring to your attention the thread ATTN Fred: Groombridge dialog.

It involves the director's cut(!!!!) of SC2, and everybody is more than welcome to reply to it, after reading meep-eeps very enlightening comments on the subject.

and by the way, I think the Kohr Ah are the coolest in terms of lines, but the Druuge are definitely evil

terribly sorry for the intrusion, but your help is needed...


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Gill_Bates on August 02, 2003, 06:54:04 am
Luk, you missed my point. The point was about treating each race as one individual with definite characteristics.
Maybe it's a flaw with the game itself  - the lack of characters defining each race in different ways.
The american stereotype part meant that the prospects of good and evil are too rigidly set: it's "us" against "them".
The "good americans" vs. "evil russians" or "evil terrorists" or whatever.
The one who meddles in the affairs of everyone in order to create a more just world must be according to this the "good guy" and those who oppose him are naturally the "bad guys".
This type of definition is often associated with the american mindset (as viewed in movies and other culture setting media). This is not meant to insult the american people but to show they have strong opinions about what is good and what is "evil", either in life or in this game.


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Lukipela on August 02, 2003, 04:45:05 pm
Actually, my point was that it does not matter if there are individuals in the human race that would be ready to trade with the Synths, or synths rready and eager to barter with humans, as long as neither side had the opportunity to do so. It's like saying I'd make a great world ruler. While this is definetly true, it really doesn't matter one iota, as I have no chance of becoming supreme ruler.

As for the point of different individuals in different races, I do agree with that as I stated earlier.


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Captain_Nemo on August 19, 2003, 03:48:10 am
Quote
You cant label things "good" and "evil"

When you start labeling things good and evil, you sound like George W. Bush. The lowest IQ president of the US ever. And thats not an exaggeration. He has an IQ of 89


False 'facts' are a pet peeve of mine: this is a hoax  see http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/lovenstein.html

With regard to what various peaple have  said about black and white viewpoints:
First, some things are evil, even if not everyone involved was.  For example, the vast majority of Germans were and are good people,  Nazi Germany as an institution was evil.  Or take the Russian army in the cold war.  The enlisted men were all drafted and had to do what they were told, many of the officers were simply serving their country.  The effect, the forceful subjegation of Eastern Europe and of the Russian people, was evil.    Brutal tyrrants may be loving husbands and fathers, even Hitler was good with children, but this changes nothing.  Moral relativisim taken to extremes is an intellectual quagmire, you get bogged down, unable to do anything,  because you have declared yourself incapable of making unbiased judgements.   Sometimes generalizations are more accurate than a more detailed analysis because a body of individuals can be better or more evil than the sum of its members.
On the other hand, too much perspective is obviously a problem. For a long time people looked at the bible and said that pyramid workers must have been slaves, but actual excavation shows that they were highly skilled and well paid


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: bigfoot256 on August 19, 2003, 07:22:42 am
All of this discussion on which race is noblwe really depends on where you are viewing it from. Try looking from the stance of the Ilwrath, for example. Killing is the way that they please their gods, and therefore, they kill in order to 'save themselves' or some such. As we live in a society that sees killing as the highest evil (one of the highest evils, whatever, I do not want to get into a discussion of what is more 'evil' than killing), we see this as evil.

The Kohr-Ah are killing for self-preservation, as they see it. They think that they will be enslaved again if they don't wipe out every other sentient life form.

And, of course, the Druuge. They enslave and kill for their own personal gain, a business standpoint, here. They are just capitalists, very greedy capitalists. Couldn't you say that everyone who is forced to work to feed themselves or their families, are also enslaved, yet with more privileges than the 'traditional' slave?

The Thraddash fight just for the sake of fighting, is that evil, too?

Just some points to think about.


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: PakoPako on August 20, 2003, 01:36:31 pm
Quote
Interesting point coming up now. How does the Druuge society keep itself alive? If you keep tossing your working force, you won't have anyone left to breed and such. Perhaps special breeding harems? "Hey dad." "Who are you?" "I'm your 42nd son."

Simple enough.
Breeding chambers (though they never told themselves of how fast they breed/mature) and Slave Trade.

You work and work and work. You're only feeding the furnace if you are fighting. And I'd asume there's a pecking order in business, from mongul to worker to bottom-fodder.

Is it those on the lowest working tier, those who just fail miserably once, or are there people specified "log/slaves"? Or all of the above. After all, in desperate times, "log/slaves" can become useful in menial tasks.

But, as a slightly earlier post said, it's all on perspective. Look at how the Melnorme view Earthling "altruism".

-=PakoPako=-


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Spurk on August 20, 2003, 06:38:43 pm
Quote
Interesting point coming up now. How does the Druuge society keep itself alive? If you keep tossing your working force, you won't have anyone left to breed and such.

Ever try going to the Druuge homeworld with the Shofixti maidens? They'll buy them from you.


Title: Re: Eeeevil!
Post by: Shiver on August 21, 2003, 06:11:22 am
The Druuge don't toss vast numbers of their people into furnaces on a day-to-day basis. That's only if their economy slumps or they go to war, which is pretty rare.