The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

Well, in short here is my list. Feel free to say all about it and even to put your own list. (Not human vs. computer)

1.Sa-matra
2.Vendicor
3.Chmmr avatar
4.Yehat Terminator
5.Koar-ah marauder
6.Ur-quan Dreadnaught
7.Utwig Jugger
8.Orz nemesis
9.Chenjesu Broodhome
10.Mmrnmhrm X-from
11.Melnorme (i don't rememeber)
12.Pkunk fury(for experts only...)
13.Deep jiffa(mycon)
14.Spathi Eduler
15.Druuge mauler
16.Sylendro probe
17.Arilou skiif
18.Androsynth
19.Earthling
20.Illwrath
21.Supox
22.Vux
23.Syreen
24.Shofixi
25.Zok-fot-pik
26.Omega

Well thats all. I hope I didn't forget a ship. :-/

Sorry, I think your list needs a little work...
- Forgot the traddash
- Its Umgah not Omega

- Arilou should be higher.
- Supox shoulc be higher.
- Androsynth should be higher.
- Syreen should be higher.

- Mycon should be lower.
- Yehat should be a lot lower.

Supox is almost usless in human vs. human. And I see you don't know how to use the yehat correctly.

Well about the others... You might be right. But the yehat is a good ship!

But hey, anyone has his own list.

The supox is hardly useless, it can't really be touched by any ship slower then it.

The Yehat is ok, but it would get worked by #5-9 (maybe 10) so how can it be higher then them?

Plus, the suppox's greater manuverability has made it a powerful ship in Human vs Human games for zipping behind an enemy and giving it to them with both barrels. It just requires a mad amount of skill to pull it off, but often yields great results if mastered.

ships all have their strengths. The list should be how good a ship is verses another ship, but that would tkae a long time to make.
If ur going by how many ships a certain ship is good against, id go with spathi, chmmr, utwig, yehat,

Good Utwig players can easily beat any Ur-Qaun (both kinds) Move it higher up.

So what if they can beat them? It is overall rate. Hell lets put the pkunk first because it can beat the sa-matra!

but their are a lot of ships that can beat the pkunk, where as the pkunk is one of the few ships that can beat the pkunk

I guess there is no real list we can make of the best ships because; all ships have their qaulities. Each one is good for something else, what we could do though is a counter list: a list that shows what ship can easily destroy another. For example; an Utwig Jugger can Beat Ur-Qaun Kzer-Za easily. That would be a good idea.

Well there is a list, you agree that the Vux is better than the shofixi even when the shofixi can easily destroy it right?

thats a really good example.

what about ur-quan can beat chmmr, which can beat slylandro, which can beat ur-quan

What about Druuge can beat Chmmr which can beat Earthling, which can beat Druuge.

It was this sort of rock-paper-scissors aspect that SC1 really revolved around. There were aspecs of it in SC2, like listed above. For this reason I don't think a ranked list of ships is actually viable. We'd end up pushing an pulling on the list infinately.

the most acurate way to make the list is to list how many ships a certain ship can defeat, and to that for each ship. Than compair. The problem with this plan is that a ship from the bottom may be able to beat a ship from the top.

I don't think we can really make a list...

not an accurate one

But, as proposed, it would be possible to make a matrix that would contain all the relevant information.

Well, nearly all the relevant information: some ships require more skill than others, and some are less useful against players with much skill, so we could have a second matrix to provide a linear-in-skill term... and so on.

You could point cost into the mix.  If you say:
X:7 points
Y:10 points
Z:20 points
ship X: kills 4 ship y's for 40 points
ship Y: kills 3 ship Z's for 60 points
ship Z: kills 10 ship X's for 70 points

then you could say that ship Z is the overall victor, unless you take the original ship cost out of the points won:
40 - 7 X:33 points net gain
60 - 10 Y:50 points net gain
70 - 20 Z:50 points net gain
Y and Z are tied.

In the event of such a tie, you go back to the gross winnings, so Z wins again!

How you got to points mix? ??? ???

But you must agree with me that THERE is a list. Ur-quan is better than Utwig OVERALL. Chmmr is better than Ur-quan OVERALL. OVERALL, not against each other,OVERALL.

I disagree.  Utwig are overall better than Ur-Quan and Chmmr.

Deep_Jiffa: What list? Saying "ship x is better than ship y OVERALL" proves nothing. There are only two possible ways to prove which ships are superior.

Method 1: Similar somewhat to methods mentioned above, you compile a list of scores of ship 1 vs. ship 2, then vs. ship 3, etc for every ship. However with this method comes a lot of complications. Do we pit human vs. computer? Human vs. human? Or computer vs. computer? In any of these cases there are scores of variables to take into account, including, but not limited to: Skill (or AI setting) of the pilot; familiarity with piloted ship (not to be confused with skill), strategy (passive, agressive, or other), power/damage/usefulness of a weapon or secondary, versatility of the ship overall, acelleration and turning speed, and the mass of the ship. All of these factors (but as I said, lots more) have to be taken into account for just ONE of the ships. The second ship doubles this number of variables, and even then you must take into account the speed/trajectory of asteriods, the location and many MANY interactions you can have with a planet and it's gravity, how all of your weapons/specials interact with all of these and so on. With all of this, it could take the better part of a lifetime to compile and accurately project a thorough enough "list" of best to worst. After all that effort, what's the point? Even with the immense following this game has, I doubt anyone would care if it took only half a lifetime, much less a full one.
Method 2: Load up Super Melee or TimeWarp, pick your ships, and engage in combat. This method is much less time consuming, and can be repeated many times if desired, without all the variable counting and data compiling involved.

I'll take Methoid 2 any day...

Then you have to consider if it's a human the willingness of the pilot to even try the battle if they think it's impossible.

This is my opinion. All I said in the post is:
A. Give your opinion about MY list.
B. Post your list

And now you talk about inaccurate lists and impossible listing(wtf you want from me?!?!? ???).

Making a 1-25 list of the ships (not counting the Sa-Matra or Vindicator, as they are both greatly overpowered compared to the standard ship) is damn near impossible given the rock-paper-scissors aspect of ship to ship combat. It's easiest to group off favorite ships. Instead I'll give my opinion on each ship.

Androsynth: An interesting concept, but an unusual one. Random mining is not really my style.
Arilou: Too weak for my tastes. Forget teleportation.
Chenjesu: Bouncing ships into planets via DOGI is fun. Good ship though too slow.
Chmmr: Way powerful. No surprise there.
Druuge: Lots of fun sniping. Except when I miss a lot.
Earthling: Meh. Only good on rare occasions.
Ilwrath: Ditto.
Kohr-Ah: Love the shredder effect this ship has. :)
Melnorme: Super deadly.
Mmrnhrmm: Interesting, but weak.
Mycon: Meh.
Orz: Orz is *happy* now that *sad cow* is *dissloved*.
Pkunk: Even with the reincarnation I'm not fond of this ship.
Shofixti: Pointless against almost any targets that would be worthwile for the glory device.
Slylandro: A very fun design, one I must attempt to master.
Spathi: Since Fwiffo has superpowers I find Spathi to be fun, yet tedious.
Supox: Another interesting ship I wish to master.
Syreen: Huh huh huh. Hey Beavis, she said 'penetrate'!
Thraddash: So powerful, yet not...
Umgah: Meh.
Ur-Quan: I love this ship!
Utwig: I seek mastery of this ship as well.
VUX: Good for kamikaze chomping, but that's about it.
Yehat: I hate fighting the Royalist Yehat. I hate even more that I can't use these ships that well.
Zoq-Fot-Pik: Meh.

Overall Favorites:
Chmmr, Kohr-Ah, Ur-Quan, Thraddash, and Melnorme.

Runner-Ups (Runners-Up?):
Druuge, Orz, Slylandro, Utwig, Chenjesu, and Yehat.

Honorable Mentions:
Mmrnhrmm, Spathi, and Pkunk.

Well I'll try too:

Androsynth: Good ship but i don't really like using it except against the chmmr[You can get "stucked" in the chmmr and destroy it in 3 sec(!!!)]
Arilou:Good ship but still too hard for me  :'(
Chenjesu: Yea!!!!!! Dogy style! Real fun against Druuge. They just keep burning themself and scream!!!:)
Druuge: I love sniping but the ship is useful only for 2 battles max, maybe 3
Earthling: Hard to use because most ships chase you, this ship is good in sniping(well not really sniping)
Illwrath:What is the use against the computer? It always knows where you are!
Koar-Ah:Hey I have placed it 3rd for some reason
Melnorme:I am speechless
Mmrnhrmm:Except for the hard name to say it is useful but still hard to use well.
Mycon: With luck you can beat the chmmr
Orz:Only if it had more dynamos...
Pkunk:Speed is the most important thing, too bad it is the hardest thing too.
Shofixi:Kaboom!!!
Slylandro:I will change it place in the list since I found out yesterday how to beat a chmmr without getting hit.
Spathi:Good
Syreen:Bah, except for Talana I have no use for the Syreen
Thraddash: hehe i wonder when the tech team will change the stupid computer AI that keep running into the Fart flares. P.S this one is for you Culture 20
Umgah:Now I know why the frog sent 10 of them.
Ur-Quan:The master!
Utwig:Mess with the best, die like the rest
Vux: Ugly beasts.
Yehat: Now I will explain why the ship is 2nd. They put the "T" in terminator, the ship is so good!!!! It can beat ur-quan, koar-ah, chmmr, utwig, chenjesu, orz and pretty much almost all alone!!! (Damn sylendros)
Zok-fot-pik: no use excpet for the winning music.

Overall favorite:
Ur-quan, Koar-ah, Yehat, Orz, Sylandro,Pkunk,Utwig

Runner-up
Pkunk, sylandro

Honorable Mentions:
Mycon, melnorme, Thraddash

something that would make the list wrong. The ariloo cna beat the chmmr is the pilot is patient enough

Like hell they can.  Maybe if they try to bump them into a planet, but the range of the arilou lazer is only slightly longer than the ranger of a zap-sat.  Which means that the risk of getting the arilou damaged is balanced by the meager possibility of doing a point or two of damage to a zap-sat.  Not exactly good odds.

And how is the Yehat better than all those ships you listed Jiffa?  Sure it "can", as if in possibly, beat those ships you listed, but nine times out of ten, in a human on human match.  The  Chmmr, Utwig, Ur-Quan, and probably Korh-ah will beat the crap out of the Yehat.  The Chmmr and Utwig are a given, the Ur-Quan and Korh-ah a likely probability.

u misunderstand me.
what i ment by the ariloo can beat chmmr thing was that a chmmr will never catch an ariloo, and eventually will comit suiside viar planate

actually, as someone allready pointed out, the best way to express the rock-paper-sicsors nature of the ships is to make a large table listing which ship would have the advantage when matched up against another ship.

i suppose someone could make a scoring system (u gain more points if the fight is harder ex. fighting a chmmr in a mycon)

The Chmmr will not always eventually crash into a planet because the Chmmr has no need to pursue the arilou due to the fact that it cannot catch the smaller ship and because the Arilou poses no threat to the Chmmr if the Chmmr simply stays still.  Basically it's a patience game, and although it could be possible for a Chmmr be defeated by an arilou, firepower, point defense, and health are all on its side, whilst the arilou has only a measly lazer and a teleportation device that doesn't do squat against the Chmmr.

its a complete patience game. Im just saying that if u do nothing wrong, u can beat a chmmr with an ariloo

Just pillbox with the Chmmr going aganist the Arliou. The Arliou can't do a much of anything and any attempt to attack may result in receiving damage that the Arliou can't afford to take. In this matches I usually let the Chmmr win it's pointless just waiting for something to happen

ah well

You want to know how the yehat can beat all? Here, now I will explain you all.

There are two diffrent thing between the yehat shield and they utwig shield:
1. The yehat can shoot while the shield is on
2. Yehats' shield isn't long (especially when you shoot too)

To solve the second problem and using the first one correctly the yehat MUST use gravity-wip so he will be a strafing opponet. He gets near to the enemy ship, using the shield and the pulse gun and before the shield is down, he is out of there!!!

Also, you probably wonder how the yehat ship can beat the chmmr, same way as I said before but with a slight diffrence. When the chmmr uses the special ability, the yehat MUST move toward the chmmr so he will move fast toward the chmmr and do the same as before. The terminator is a small ship, it will move very very fast, even more than the gravity wip trick.

haha, just a while ago i wished the yehat could shoot with the shield up. gues i missed something

The thing is coming up with a good ship list is subjective...you have to consider the person's personal tastes and interests and grounds for coming up with their list (ships they personally like and dislike), then you have to consider if it's versus other humans or the computer...

What I like as far as ship strengths and such is to do something so at least the most part of it is regular - I'd go off the computer since it plays similarly for all of us.  With human vs. human there's always too many variables in there to consider good ships versus not good ships.

Something on the top of my mind because I play it a lot is the VUX (me) versus the world...so I can come up with a good list for the VUX ships...you can do this with the other ships as well...most of the capital ships are pretty fruitless in this regard, since they buzzsaw just about everything....but if a good number of us is willing to do lists like this, it'd be interesting...of course my opinions may change if I find a new strategy that makes these things easy.

VUX
====
You've Got No Chance Literally: Ur-Quan, Orz, Chmmr
No Chance, But Rare Win Possible: Mycon, Androsynth, Earthling
Possible but you have to be good: Ilwrath, Chenjesu, VUX, Arilou, Shofixti (only because you can't get in range for your laser w/o getting in range for the glory device), Mmrnmhrm, Slylandro, Pkunk, Kohr-Ah, Druuge
Slam Dunk: Supox, Umgah, Spathi, Utwig, Syreen, Zot-Foq-Pik, Yehat, Thraddash, Melnorme

I was wondering if the mycon is good against Anything? The only two ships I can think of that the podship stands a chance against is the vux and the earthlings and even they can kill it a good 50% of the time. What good is the mycon?

The Mycon become usefull when you use the plasmoids as shields;  against a slow-firing enemy, the plasmoid saves you from damage, and sometimes continues on to do a point or two of damage to the enemy ship.

Four things:

1.Lets see... Mycon ship isn't good for anything. Excuse me if I laugh.... It can beat sylandro, pkunk, chenjesu, spathi, earthling(hard), ur-quan,koar-ah(these two are very hard), vux, supox, syreen.... and so on.... The only problem with it is that you need to keep distance between the ships and for certian ships to get close(for example: chenjeso, extremly dangerous).

2.Captian smith, for some ships in the slam-dunk section I must say, dream on.
Supox: are you kidding? Supox has more range and speed than the vux. Are you sure you are playing on awesome level?
Spathi: Again, are you sure you are playing on awesome level?
Utwig: only against the computer you can do severe damage.

I can go on all day, but for conclusion vux is good ONLY against the computer. The only ship it can destroy on human vs human but still can be destroyed by is the drone(umgah), or the first ship after the vux enters(It starts near the ship, usally)

3. Yes you did miss something Chrispy, the Yehat can shoot you while thier shields are up, but then only for short time.

4. About the arilou vs chmmr, the arilou can win. The problem is that you need to be really really good, even over computer skills. You need to shoot and teleport before the laser hits you. It is easy to do in slow motion but almost impossible when the speed is at normal. Doing it one time is lucky enough, but 42 times?

There are certain absolutes, if I'm not mistaken. One thing everyone can agree about is that the Umgah are at the bottom of the list, right?

Except for the fact above,  I think it depends on what you like to play with. I'm not very good with the Zoqfot, but some people could do pretty cool things with them.

The Pkunk can be great against anything, if you use them properly, even Chmmr, and so is the Terminator (yes, even Chmmr and VUX) - but that's just my pref. not everybody likes them.

The big ships - Chmmr, Khor ah and Ur Quan are pretty solid,
but after a while its more fun to play the impossible matches, for example, how long can you last with a Spathi against Chmmr (I almost won once, but it's a long time)?
Or Orz against Androsynth?
Chmmr against Utwig?
Utwig Vs. Chenjesu?

Yea it is fun, but chenjesu vs utwig is easy match(when you are the utwig)Sorry.

Nope not kidding.  Just checked it and beat the Supox rather easily on awesome with the VUX.  Ditto with the Spathi...and I could agree with you on the Utwig...the computer flashes off it's shield once you get beind the limpeted Utwig...

And speaking of that, anything with more speed and range can be limpeted down enough so they have neither.

That's not that difficult.
Against human: turn the turret to the aft, wait for the 'synth, your turning rate is good enough. Only at your aft he can get "catched" and kill you quickly. Wait with shooting until he nearly touches you and blast him from sky. Most probably he'll touch you once or twice, but you'll survive.
Against computer: use your good turning rate, when he has lost his battery, *GO-GO* and shoot him.

It's just a little bit of training (this equals for all ships, especially for the Blade).
I'm just a little bit unhappy, that my beloved blade stands no chance against the Dreadnaughts fighters (once they've catched up, which is hard for them) and the Kohr-Ahs' blade and FieryRing(of)Inevitable(and)EternalDestruction. But for the rest my blade is just perfect (although it remains hard fighting some skilled pilots).

Quote:

"1.Lets see... Mycon ship isn't good for anything. Excuse me if I laugh.... It can beat sylandro, pkunk, chenjesu, spathi, earthling(hard), ur-quan,koar-ah(these two are very hard), vux, supox, syreen.... and so on.... The only problem with it is that you need to keep distance between the ships and for certian ships to get close(for example: chenjeso, extremly dangerous). "

It can beat pkunk???? Are you crazy?? The pkunk is much faster than the plasmoides and can easly stear them into the podship. It's even better tham the Arilo at killing the mycon. Spathi same story. I haven't tried sylandro but it a very fast ship and has a weapon very simmilar to the ariloo skif so I bet it does as good or better than it to.

i love the slylandro, and yes htey can kill podships with ease.
you may be able to kill all these ships with a podship, but probably not as well as u can with a better ship, although i must admit with a good roquet, the podship is so much fun

VUX is strong against Supox, Spathi, Utwig.

Limpets have a rather long range, long enough to keep these guys at bay (out of their weapons range). Pillbox until they come at you. Limpet them. Once they have one or two limpets they're at your mercy. Spathi remain dangerous due to BUTTs. You will want to approach them from their forward quarter.


Mycon vs Pkunk or Arilou? Slingshot until you're going faster than they are. Then wait for them to chase you. If they maintain close contact to the rear, you can plop a plasmoid into them. If they maintain close contact to the front, you aren't going fast enough. If they do strafe runs, regenerate.
If your opponent is in the least skittish (giving you a moment to regenerate) you can draw this out until mistakes are made.
A critical element in the strategy is to get a fast-moving course that does NOT intersect the planet.

The mycon CAN beat the pknuk and the sylandro like spathi can beat the sylandro!!! The computer AI is very low. Don't tell me you think spathi can beat a probe on human vs. human. You just need to know how to use the plasma shots correctly.

Yes, Spathi have trouble against human-controlled Slylandro.

However, my Mycon vs. Fastship tactic does not rely on AI weakness.

Then on what it rely? Great aiming?

The low offensive output of the fastships, the ability of the mycon to outrun them with a good slingshot, and the regeneration of the podship.
All it takes is one time the fastship let itself get close and behind the podship, and it's toast. Against a human, the human will sooner or later make that error. Meanwhile, the fastship has to take EVERY opportunity to get a few shots in so that the podship doesn't regenerate away the damage.

Well, what did I say? AI weakness.

I am missing what about my tactic involves AI. It does rely on an error, but under varied circumstances, a human opponent may make that error.

True, but because of the AI weakness, you can hit the pkunk or the sylandro with the plasma shots. Human player won't fall for those tricks. He will be wiser to go from back and attack.

But if he comes from the front, you'll pass him (remember, you're cruising along faster than he can) and you can drop a present in his lap. If he tries to ram you to get you down to speed, you can of course shove the plasma ball straight into him (you can fire forwards safely if you are nose-to-nose with your target).

But if he is smart and comes from side front, hit you and run? if you turn around to shoot on him, you get hit by your own shots!

He may eventually screw up the timing, end up being passed by the hurtling fungus, and end up with a plasmoid in front of him.

What I'm getting at is that is there is a tactic which at least makes the arilou or pkunk work for the victory. Heaven knows I'm never PICKING a Mycon to fight Pkunk or Arilou.

Want to try this out some time? Do you live near Philadelphia?

I'll have to laugh my ass off on this one too.

Another list like the VUX one...I'm sure I'll get lots of comments on this one. (played my 14 ship Best list and had 6 casualties, and played my 14 ship "Rest" list and had 2 casualties).  To describe my "lists", order the ships in terms of points from most to least..."Best" is the first 14 ships, "Rest" is the rest of the ships, with the best ones of that list repeated once to fill out the 14.

Of course some of this changes depending on where you/your opponent warps in.

Mycon
=====
You've Got No Chance Literally: Nothing!
No Chance, But A Win Is Possible: Utwig, Chmmr, Kohr-Ah, Yehat
Possible But you have to be good: Orz, Ilwrath, Chenjesu, Arilou, Pkunk, Slylandro, Ur-Quan, Mycon, Spathi
Slam Dunk: Androsynth, Earthling, VUX, Shofixti, Mmrnmhrm, Druuge, Supox, Umgah, Syreen, Zot-Foq-Pik, Traddash, Melnorme

You can actually do this with the Mycon at normal speed.  If you run and the ship chases you from behind you can fire as you're thrusting forward (the plasmoid whips behind you) - if the ship behind you can't react in time they get hit.  Works very well against fast ships that turn very poorly, like the Spathi.

Yep. I agree with you. That's why I love the mycon. But one little change in it.... The chmmr avatar, you can't beat it unless it starts near the plant so he isn't moving for the entire battle.

Try circling it...sometimes you can do it, sometimes you can't...but you can usually circle the Chmmr as long as you have to...that's why it's on the position I'm in...I've beat an active Chmmr about 20% of the time with the Mycon doing that.

When you do it. The chmmr uses his special ability and you are history. The mycon has high max speed, but bad thrusters and turning rate. Not a chance against the avatar.
Play at awesome level, then you will understand.

Have you tried it?  Like I said I win about 20% of the time doing that and hurt the Chmmr badly about 40-50% of the time otherwise...the big challenge is not getting blown away entirely...usually I end up with about 3/4 of my crew gone when I get in close...but after I start circling I can do it infinitely against the computer on awesome.  That's the point of that 2nd column - you can sometimes win, but most of the time you won't.

When you move foward with your back to the avatar, he uses the special ability. When you try to circle him he does the same. I know from expirence orz vs. chmmr. Orz wins because he has more turning rate and faster thrusters( And no, you don't have to move the turret)

A.I on awesome is pretty stupid at times. Against a human player a Mycon Podship has no chance only thing you could do is put a big dent on the Avatar. Personally, I think the Mycon Podships are the most overrated ship against human players. There are only a handful of ships that the podship can outright crush. Most the other matchups are difficult requring some skill or impossible.

Quick Question:

Would a win with Shofixti Glory Device count as a win in favor of the Shofixti? (it's victory ditty plays)

If I Recall Correctly, the Glory Device can kill a Mycon in one blow without having to be at point blank range.

-=PakoPako=-

Since both ships are destroyed there won't be any victory music but the shofixi ship lost the battle for a simple reason. You choose the next ship before your opponent does. The one who "lost" first always chooses first.(After a long fight you finally beat the koar-ah ship, but wait, what is this black spinning thing? oh ****.... ;)).

Sorry Jiffa but you're way off base there. If a Shofixti kills an enemy with the Glory Device then the game does play the Shofixti victory ditty. Try it sometime against an idle human opponent if you need to.

Yes, IF the Mycon is in a bad shape already (half crew down).

BTW: How is the damage the Glory Device makes calculated???

I have no clue, but it roughly goes like this: the closer you are, the more damage you will do.

... by virtue of that knowledge, then, do you not in fact have a clue?

No I don't. I DON'T have a clue how to calculate it, but it is obvious that the closer the explosion is, the more damage you will do.

Well, don't know the exact calcations for the Glory Device maybe, one of people working the code can reveal it. But, the Glory Deivce seems to do up to 16 damage when your up close and personal to 1 damage when your about 2 small screens away.

Yeah. 16 sounds about right. Takes almost 1/3 of an Ur-QuanKzer0za Dreadnaught's crew off.

I dunno if there are bonuses if you wedge yourself inside a ship somehow (Spathi, Chenjesu, et al) but I doubt it.

A Mycon has, what, about 20 Crew? Fire a few blasts, skitter around, and hopefully kill it before it recovers 4 additional crew...

-=PakoPako=-

The Glory Device isn't that powerful. Two screen away? Not a chance. One screen away, yes. But two is too far.

Look, he said it only did 1 damage at that range... it seems quite reasonable that the slight damage radius would be that large. Why don't you get out and test it rather than relying on your prejudices (which are probably unbased, since I don't imagine that you've ever detonated a shofixti that far from its target)

I'll try to put some sort of end to the mystery:

Shofixti Glory Device Vital Stats:

Maximum Damage: 18
Minimum Damage: 1
Blast Radius: 180 (I would presume pixels)
Damage calculation: A percentage of the maximum, based on how far away the enemy ship is.

Well, actually the maxlium blast radius for glory device is one close-up screen across in Star Control 2 doing 1 damage.

 So the Glory Device was 18. That's stronger than the ZoqFotPik tongue.

Am I the only one who thinks that the Glory device should be able to damage Dreadnaught Fighters & Nemesis Marines and the like?

-=PakoPako=-

The glory device does damage to anything and everything in its blast radius, including (but not limited to) asteroids, fighters, mines, and opposing ships.  In other words, your wish has already been granted; it already works that way.

The only part that does seem counter-intuitive is that any Orz marines aboard the scout eject alive when you set off the bomb.  Since marines outside the ship don't fare nearly as well, nor does the crew of the scout, I think it smells like a bug.  :)

Thanks Nic, that's been what I wanted to know.

Strange. It never happened to me.

This is for the original question. Why does the yehat has such a high rate? Oh, and you forgot to put the thraddash. Beside that the list looks fine to me.

Really?
I could've sworn the Dreadnaught Fighters & Nemesis Marines in the v0.2 of UQM (melee mode, VS Cyborg) survived a blast. Maybe they weren't close enough. I'll try again against a dummy team.

And, I think I mentioned here, the UQM AI is really advanced (comparing Awesome to Awesome). The Thraddash Torchships are just about worthless as hit-n-run guys now. Smaller ships, like the Syreen and Ilwrath (and they're not even that small) now *know* to avoid the flame trail, forcing the Thraddash to rely on it's slow, long range main weapon after hearding enemies with the flame.

-=PakoPako=-

Nah, with little bit of skills, you can take them. Just like spathi vs. slyndro

... what??? The AI will sometimes avoid the fire trail, but will often not do so. And that's enough to kill almost anything AI-controlled with a Thraddash.

 ???

The Ilwrath does a surprisingly good job of not running into the flame trail. If I treat my Torchship like an Eluder (running in close, drop a large cloud of fire in their face) they will actually uncloak and blast the fire trail away.

Even the Korh-Ah try to avoid the flame trail.
Not well, mind you, but they tend to veer out of the way when far enough (or maybe they want to go the other direction and try to surprise me). I don't recall them doing that in the PC version.

-=PakoPako=-

At the risk of re-hijacking this thread, I just put a patch to fix this problem into Bugzilla as Bug #445 (http://uqm.stack.nl/cgi-bin/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=445).  If you are amongst the bold and daring souls who apply random patches out of UQM Bugzilla, give it a try; I tested it quite a bit but am interested to know if I caused any unintended "side effects" that I didn't notice.

I have already answered this question. Read this again Krogger

Something I've been wondering about: What is the Omega ship? The starting Precursor vessel?

Isn't there a Melee game that uses the SC2 ships accurately that has online play? Anyone claiming to be specialized with a ship can take on others who are specialzed in other ships. This is probably the more painstaking way of getting any chart done.

And even then, if there is a close 1-on-1 victory, in an actual Melee game, allowing random select or not, there will be other ships to fry. Although you could take a tally on how many ships you can fry before someone dies, ie: an Utwig can lay waste to about 6 Shofixti controlled by a good player before those all Glory devices spell death.

This situation is very unlikely because:
a.) I don't know if there is a Melee game with accurately protrayed SC2 ships with online capability
b.) I don't know if there are enough "specialists" who are good with some of the "obscure" ships (Ilwrath, Shofixti, etc.)
c.) I don't know if there are enough insane "specialists" who are willing to playtest this game against other humans via online play. (I'm on a 28.8, so I bow out)

Oh, and here's a really nasty, cheap, and by no means invented or endorsed by me trick the Arilou Skiffs can use: park yourself near a planet and wait. Skim around the planet now and then, zapping people who get close enough and teleporting if you're in their weapon's range.

Yes, this is about as bad as using a Mmrnmhrm X-form and running all day, but it is a viable option.

-=PakoPako=-

I forget, doesn't a Syreen "Siren Call" affect all enemies nearby, even cloaked ones? (except the Slylandro of course)

Gg.  :-[ Sorry for double posting.Rated By Preference and Personal Efficiencey of Use

     :1st Tier:
Utwig Jugger
+Zenith Defense, pillboxing.
-Poor at chasing
Korh-Ah Marauder
(I remembered the PC version, the Fire Shield was much stronger than it was in UQM)
+All-Around performer, Infinite Range, Mining, Powerful
-Fire-shield more a 'last-ditch' gambit
Chmmr Avatar
+High Defense & Power
-Slow turning, toast without Zap-stats
Spathi
+All-Around performer, good crew size
-Average range, low recharge rate
Yehat
+All-Around performer, excellent maneuvering, firing rate
-Small Battery, Shields drain quickly

     :2nd Tier:
Androsynth Blazer/Guardian
+All-Around performer, homing weapon, quick comet escape
-Can't stand heavy fire
Mmrnhrmm X-Form
+Range & Speed, Annoying to catch
-People tend to punch me for using this...
Supox Blade
+All-Around performer, remarkable maneuvering, speedy
-Low crew
Pkunk Fury
+Speed & Reincarnation; like fighting 16 ships
-Fragile, weak weapon, short range
Ur-Quan Dreadnaught
+Pure Power, 44 crew with omniprescence!
-Slow turn, slow recharge, far-flung fighters are vulnerable

    :3rd Tier:
Chenjesu Broodhome
+Strong, Durable, Unique Weapon, DOGIs: offense & shield
-Slow in most aspects, easily gets "caught" against planets and in gravity wells
Thraddash Torch
+All-Around performer, ranged weapon, speedy
-Fragile, weak weapon
Melnorme Trader
(In UQM.. does that Special Weapon EVER wear off?!?! I mean, the AI hits me again for the fun of it and I change spinning direction... it wore off in the PC version...)
+Unique & powerful weapons (in UQM, the Dizzy effect lasts a long time, promoting the Melnorme to 1st Tier status)
-Below Average speed & turning
Slylandro Probe
+Speed, intertia-less
-Large sized, fragile, limitd range, bolts seem random
Syreen Penetrator
+Unique Ability very devastating near planets, maneuverable
-Weak, average range, low starting crew

    :4th Tier:
Mycon Podship
+Powerful wepaon, good at keep-away
-Slow turning rate, hard to attack during sligngshot, average durability
Orz Nemesis
+All-Around performer, 8-way (IIRC) shooting, Marines
-Brain can't handle simultaneous "run-turn gun-shoot"
Shofixti
+Glory Device, highly manueverable
-Fragile ship with limited range
Arilou Skiff
+Unique Ability, zippy, manueverable, no intertia
-Annoying to form actual consistant offense
Druuge Mauler
+Unique & Powerful main Weapon, 2nd fastest ship
-Low turning = no close-range ability

    :Zebranky Food:
VUX Intruder
+Limpets, warps close, lots of energy, strong weapon
-From afar, target practice
Umgah
+Fastest ship ever, strong main weapon
-Limited range, slow normal speed
Ilwrath Avenger
+All-around performer, cloaking
-I can't tell exactly where I am and people rain farts in my general direction
Earthling Cruiser
+Quick 8 points of damage, PDL
-HUMANS STINK! (anyone remember that series?)
ZoqFotPik
+Funny crew
-Joke ship (with a few more crew, tonguing seems more possible)

-=PakoPako=-

FYI - I tested this on the original SC2 and the same case happened...the bomb goes off, the orz marines eject and it's *happy bubbles* for the Orz.

If you already talk about *happy bubbles*, why you can't hit the green marines but you can hit the orange ones? Maybe because they *enjoy the sauce*? Or just a bug....( :-/)

I thought that returning fighters (be they UQ Dreadnaught Fighters or ORZ Marines) could not be attacked when they make their return? [in the original PC ver.]

-=PakoPako=-

No the ur-quan fighters can be attacked when they return but the "green" marines can't be attacked... Why?

I've always been able to attack them. But the green ones are focused on you and try to evade your shot. The orange ones are focussed on homecoming and don't care being shot at. They are just easier to hit.

For testing try using a Supox, fly backwards while being followed by the marines and strafe left-right while shooting. The marines can take a few hits, but they can be destroyed this way.

Yea but I am talking about the other marines. The green ones that comes out of the ship after it is destroyed. You can't hit them, not at all. Thats why the glory device doesn't effect them. They have "the sauce" in them.

Sorry, my fault. I have messed them up.
But I rememer having the Homecoming ones killed easily, since they do not evade your shots.
I know that the Orz on board of a shoficti will survive the usage of the glory-device, although the Marines not aboard will be killed in the explosion. I've read some articles about it and to me it seemes like a glitch, which the testplayers have overseen.
Just my 2 Euro-cents.

Yes but then again, it is logical that they will survive the glory-device explosion if they can't be killed when they come back to the nemesis ship.

If you take absurd premises, absurd results are likely to follow.

I am not a deep ORZ player, but do the green marines return to your ship immediately after battle, or are they still moving toward your ship when the next ship comes in?

Or do they simply turn red and gun toward the new ship? (I recall that instance happening.. unable to test out that theory at the moment)

-=PakoPako=-

The "green" marines can be killed just as easily (or with as much difficulty, depending on your viewpoint) as the "orange" ones, but it's a bit harder to tell since they head directly for the mothership once the enemy is destroyed.

And no, they don't stop heading for home when a new ship appears on screen.  But the computer usually launches marines at the beginning of a battle, so it's easy to get that impression..

But why they turn green?(You know all Nic, give it a shot :D)

Because of this:

Very funny Nic. You always have to be right huh?

Not at all; I'm wrong all the time.  Just ask my wife.  ;D

The wife is always right... ;D

Anyway...

How competent the pilot is very important. I actually managed to beat a human-controlled Jugger with nothing more than a Intruder. I just happened to be a better pilot, probably as I had more experience with the VUX than he did with Utwig.

Even harder was when I actually managed to beat an Avatar (weak cyborg) with a Zoq-Fot-Pik Stinger without losing any crew. Any use of the tractor beam would doom the ZFP, however, so a smarter A.I. or a human player would be nearly impossible. (Weak Cyborg doesn't use the Avatar's special at all.)

If you want a real hard challenge try to play arilou/sylandro vs chmmr avatar(on awesome ofcourse).

Maybe I should try that later (Arilou/Slylandro vs. Chmmr). I can't now as the computer I'm at is too ancient for OS X and so cannot run UQM. Thanks anyway.

(The computer I'm using... is a Performa with a G3 upgrade.)

Arilou vs chrmmr isn't that hard at all.  Just go in at an angle firing your laser, when you get close warp.   Repeat.

Try out Pkunk vs chrmmr, I got it down to the point where I can kill an awesome chmmr with 1 pkunk (if I get one regen).

Pkunk is much easier.... When you shoot on the avatar the satelites don't hit you because there are too many shots... Use the "flipping" trick and you can take him without lossing any crew.

plus u get to yell insults ;D

Some insults... ;D

(wimp, jerk, moron..etc...) These insults are 5 years old child insults. Here is an idea! How about making new insults! Like:
Mother fucker!  ;D ;D ;D

Just a crazy thought.

i dunno... the five year old insults seem to fit the Pkunk personality a bit better.

Yea I know. They love the pot worm. They are the pot worm(or something like that).

What is this "flipping" method you speak of, Deep Jiffa?
The zig-zag pattern employed by the best Arilou players (or the Awesome AI) or something else? (and no loss of crew, that sounds too good to be true)

I still can't quite get that angled-shot with an Arilou. I prefer the underhanded tactics of forcing slower turning opoonents to charge blindly into planets. 8)

-=PakoPako=-

I'll explain. The "flipping" trick is a trick which uses AI weakness to make them to turn around(facing thier back to you). This trick is simple to be done. Go into "chasing" mode when you are the one who run(with the pkunk it should be 2-3 screens) then turn around and attack. The (stupid) avatar will turn around and you can attack him and run without getting hit by his laser beam or his satelites. Very good too with arilou vs. utwig. The only ships that seems to have immunity to this trick are the terminator (second place or not?) or the probe or the skiff(these two has special movement).

Quote: "Even harder was when I actually managed to beat an Avatar (weak cyborg) with a Zoq-Fot-Pik Stinger without losing any crew. Any use of the tractor beam would doom the ZFP, however, so a smarter A.I. or a human player would be nearly impossible. (Weak Cyborg doesn't use the Avatar's special at all.)"

Actually I can beat a Chmmr on Awesome with a Zot-Foq-Pik.  You make a mistake you're done for, but it's possible to stay away from the tractor.

Quote: "I'll explain. The "flipping" trick is a trick which uses AI weakness to make them to turn around(facing thier back to you). This trick is simple to be done. Go into "chasing" mode when you are the one who run(with the pkunk it should be 2-3 screens) then turn around and attack. The (stupid) avatar will turn around and you can attack him and run without getting hit by his laser beam or his satelites. Very good too with arilou vs. utwig. The only ships that seems to have immunity to this trick are the terminator (second place or not?) or the probe or the skiff(these two has special movement)."

Agreed.  Quite effective and devastating too against the Utwig and Spathi if you play with the Zot-Foq-Pik.   But yeah you can juke the AI and make it turn away from your approach pretty easy in general.

Vs spathi maybe, but vs utwig... I am not sure because I have never tried. Always used ur-quan, thraddash or chenjesu and sometimes slylandro or skiff. Since the stinger has much shorter range and not much of higher turning rate or speed I don't think It can beat the jugger. But I never tried it.

The ZFP have a very very hard time with the Jugger because they are too slow for the flipping trick to work much, and their antimatter spray, though it would be great against the utwig shield, has less range than the Utwig needle array, which tears them to pieces promptly.

The ZFP Stinger, against a Human controlled Utwig Jugger, has no chance if the Jugger pillboxes them. (stays put and uses it's great turning rate and weapon range defensively)

And the sad thing is, I believe the Stinger's Tongue can charge the Utwig's battery as well. (as opposed to the Shofixti Glory Device or Melnorme Confusion which penetrate shielding)

-=PakoPako=-

Here's one impossible battle: two human players you play as a Slyarndo probe your oppoent a Chmmr Avatar. I find this battle to impossible for the probe since the probe is very difficult to control at least to the point you can't evade the zapsats. To make matters worse due the probe large profile your are litterly Chmmr fodder.

I'm talking about the "flipping" trick as referred to with the AI.  Actually yes this can be done with the AI on awesome easily...usually I get the Utwig to chase me (he's actually pretty fast if you give him time), and then I turn directly around and run into him and use the tongue.

Actually this exposes the "flipping" trick weakness of the AI rather well - the Utwig could blast me coming in, but he turns and (another weakness!) let's me hit him and doesn't block the shot.  Usually I get grazed at least once on the way back out, but I repeat this twice and beat the Utwig with the Zot-Foq-Pik on awesome AI rather easily.

You might try it if you think it's not possible.  Of course, this "hole" could have been patched in UQM, so it's hard to tell.  I'm on the original SC2.

Actually, A skilled player with the slylandro can beat a human controlled avater(!!!) Since the slylandro has more range then the zap units. Amazing isn't it?

I do not wish to post it in the other thread, because i'm not talking about specific tactics here.


I do not have real favourite ship.

I like the Supox Blade very much (partly due to the fact that I haven't met someone to fight who liked this ship).
An Avatar is an easy kill for me (see previous post).
With most others it's a thing of spraying around wild and using strafe-mode.

I like the Melnorme Trader, because the loading crystal can be used as shield (blocking other incoming shots), for the same reason the Drone is beloved.
The Jugger works nerly equal, incoming missiles and fighters can just be shot at, even for free! And the Jugger is excellent against heavy-gun-fire-ships (like lasercannons, heavy missiles, the Druuge bullet,  and rapid-fire machine guns). But it's a suck against the Chenjesu once a DOGI got to your back and youv'e not been able to shoot it. And it's poor against weak ships (like the Blade. Using the Blade means shooting only one spit per shield-cycle, so the Utwig cannot load his battery. On the long term the battery will be drained or he has been shooting and not blocking. If you see this, just fire away.) The advantage of the Jugger is also that nearly no ship will survive unscathed.
The Arilou - simply because of it's non-inertial drive and because the are the typical aliens. As well as the warp-away.

I simply love all these ships. All are special, have special specials and nearly none does stand no chance against all others. If you're skilled enough, and your opponent as well, we'll shut your computer down when this century is over.

I agree with you on that, but some ships are just annoying to fight against! I won't mind if they won't exist! Arilo and mycon. Both in AI play like cowards.

The Arilou Skiff is the sort of ship that is practically impossible to destroy when under computer control (unless you're flying an Avatar or Intruder or something that can zap the Skiff before it can teleport). In my opinion, the Skiff teleports too quickly; there should be a slight delay to prevent the computer from teleporting out just before something nasty hits it. Alternatively, the chance of teleporting straight into the planet should be larger. ;D

With a Skiff everbody would play cowardly if he had the perfect timing the AI has.
And the Podship, well, no short-range-weapon (although the damage would be much greater), low firing rate. Hey, I'm playing that one as a coward myself (run away, gravity-whip, and fire only if passing the enemy. Due to the speed i have i have plenty of time to reload and recrew, although i might miss some perfect triggerpoints).

Against the AI-Skiff: You need a damn lot of crew, let him come near, let him shoot you, and only when his battery became to low to warp away (yes, the AI makes this fault just like any human player), turn and shoot him.

Not really.... His battery "drains" when he get to the point of minimun for warp. The AI is stupid, but not that stupid.

Speaking about AI, how about putting new diffuclty levels?
(And ofcourse new games difficulty{normal, hard, supermelee hard!])

Man, I can't beleive the sheer volume that this thread has accumuliated. I mean, it was pretty contriversial, and I figured after the initial "this is stupid" posts got out of the way this thread'd have nothing else going on.

Boy was I wrong.

First thing, I want to thank all for bringing this game back! It was great then and it is great now and forever will be!

DJ, I think creating new AI, a good one, will be hard and it is probably the last thing this project will do! I know the correct one isn't smart enough for us but we must first fix the bugs, remix the audio etc.... ( whatever you do now).

Still it will be nice to fight against a smart captian instead of the usall chase/run system. Koar-ah using the razor-blades as shields, yehat terminator using gravity whip more often(it sometimes does it), druuge sniping and not rushing to close distance etc....

8) Just be patient and wait for the day it will become reality 8)

the ai in timewarp was good. maybe those people could help

Yea but why should they help? They already have timewarp to deal with!

P.S I am not going to play timewarp for "good" AI, I love sc2!
So is there a way to use the timewarp AI in uqm?(If you are not going to improve the correct one)

Ha! Amatur...


8)*Re$uRRecTioN* 8)

Just because I can!


                          (Audience commet): :o :o :o

Clearly, the greatest ship is the Pkunk "Ultimate Fury." Why is it the greatest, you ask? Well, it does 50x the dmg of a regular pkunk ship, and it always reincarnates...what do you say? Your pkunk isn't like that? Hmm, well, I did modify the pkunk ship code slightly ;).

Seriously, though, I think as many other posters have pointed out, it's really hard to make a list of the ships from best to worst...it all just depends on the skill and preferences of a user. All of the ships have advantages and disadvantages, and I think this is really the beauty of the gameplay balancing.


ps. If you're wondering, yes I really did modify my pkunk ship as such. The reason was I needed to test the post-sa-matra end sequences and such many times, so modifying the ship made it go by extremely quickly ;). If anyone is actually interested I can show you how it can be done!

Oh you could have done it alot faster!!! When you are about to attack the sa-matra change to cyborg mode! Then after your juggers(hopefully you have at least 2!!!) will humiliate the guard and then the evil frog tells you the sa-matra is defenceless and tells you to explode it, without a fight.

Actually Jiffa, I think a Pkunk that has a single bullet do 50 damage would be quite a bit quicker than sending a tubby Jugger to do your dirty work. Plus, if it's faster than it already was...

Yes but we are talking about cyborg, the fight ends up in 2 sec.

If you put it on flicker, yes. Might want to watch to glean some tactics, and what's the fun of letting the computer doing all the fighting anyway? :P

DJ was advising on how one could simply skip through the last battle, if one is attempting to debug the ending sequence. In context, the suggestion was a good one.

And it is kinda funny to watch a big fat Jugger moving at light speed :)

Haha, it's not a frog! But yeah, this would've worked, too...but wouldn't have been as fun ;).