The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

The Mmrn-Mhrn have the tecknology for a powerfull lazer, long ranged missiles, powerfull thrusters, and powerful turning jets. if they put all this in one ship, that would be sweet. 8)

Reminds you something?

You mean, something like a fast manouverable VUX?

Sorta. it would be a fast, menouverable Vux, with long ranged missiles, a better lazer, and pilots that dont think im ugly.

Who says the M:bots don't think you're ugly? they're just very polite, that's all...

I bet the Mmrnhrm think humans are ugly, and they've just got too much tact to say so. I bet the Chenjesu thought we were too, so imagine if, when their dislike combined into the Chmmr. We'd get our asses kicked.

Let's hear it for intergalactic courtesy! ;D

Or audio-only communicatons. Whichever works best.

ya well, thats besides the point. is their an explination why the mmrn-mhrn dont make this ultimate ship

They did. It's called the Chmmr Avatar.

Note the fact that the Avatar bears more similarities to the X-Form than it does to the Broodhome. (several vs. none at all)

what do you mean an explanation for why they don't make an unbeatable ship? If we ignore the gamewise implications (SC1 would have been a very boring game) we're still talking about completely alien technology here. Maybe the lasers drain too much energy for allowing it to move fast. Maybe the missiles have a bulky guidance system that doesn't leave space for anything but the tiniest thrusters, thus requiring for them to be launched at high speed. Maybe attempting to utilize a more advanced turning systems at high speeds leads to an overload in the engine matrix. Who knows? All we know is that they haven't, and that there is probably a reason for that.

Sage, how about the DOGI? I am sure the satelites have are DOGI-style tech.

the chmmr seems to be mosly new technology. im not sure of its lazers power, but it has more range than the mmrn mhrn lazer (still less than the VUX laser though). other than that, it doesnt really have a connection with either ship.

I dunno, I always viewed theAvatar as having combined elements of both Chenjesu and M:bots. I mean the shape of the ship clearly resembles the Transfomer in slow phase, and uses a weapon that is similar, although more effective. The picture of the captain puts me more in mind of a Chenjesu. And of course both crew capacity and battery power correspond to those of a Broodhome. A bit of this, a bit of that, but all bits sufficiently evolved from previous bits not to make it look like someone just slapped Transformer parts onto a Broodhome.

and with that, it adds awsome dinamo, point defends things, and a tractor beam!

well the dynamo is obviously a result of the combination of a crystalid race able to digest solar power, and a mechanical race able to automate this process and make it more effective.

The point defense bots are a simple variation of the D.O.GI. The intelligence of the crystalline intelligence of the D.O.G.I combined with a powerful A.I courtesy of the M:bots. The laser's are downgraded versions of the M:bot laser, which is still powerful enough to ensure that  the bots are unable to sport an engine strong enough to propel them freely around the screen. Instead they are restricted to a circular defense pattern around the ship.

The tractor beam is simply the focusing of solar energy through crystaline means augmented by the transforming power of the M:bots, meaning that the Chmmr ship suddenly becomes a powerful artificial gravity well (because it is "between phases" of two different forms, and thus has a higher density), and one who's gravitonic waves can be aimed through the innate reflective abilities of the crystal chenjesu.

Satisifed? There is always a high tech explanation...

yup, did u make that up or get it from somewhere.

100% make believe. But it might be true. We will never know.

Taking this thread on another, completely different angle, did anyone ever notice how both the Mmrnmhrm and Slylandro Probes have a similar captian's picture; A central spire with 2 smaller but similar spires? While the Mmrnmhrm's spires are made of metal disks, and they Slylandro probes' apear to be impaled crystals, the question can still be asked; do they share a similar construction and do the Melnorme hold the key to the Mmrnmhrm's mysterious orgins?

Of course the Melnorme will tell you they hold the keys to all mysteries, and they probably do.

Could be a fluke as well. I mean, several organic lifeforms seem to share the same characteristics (bipedal, dual-eyed that type of thing). The same could go for mechanic lifeforms, they might just have been constructed to the most efficent shape, and therefore resemble eachother.

well most pcs look the same

yes, but most PCs weren't designed ten or more thousand years apart by different species.

Relative timescale. Most intelligcent organic follows a pattern of efficebncy, so do mechanical lifeforms/constructs. Also worth noting is that the Slylandro aren't actually sentient (as far as we know), so the similarity may be a pure coincidence.

animals only look similar (four limbs, 2eyes) becaus we only know of animals on earth and they evolved from the same single cell (or god made them all sorta the same, what ever u believe)

Syreen have two eyes. Traddash have two eyes. Shofixti have two eyes. Druuge have two eyes. All these also have two legs and two arms, as far as we can tell. Yehat have eyes, and kinda legs arms/wings. And they most certainly didn't evolve from our cells. I'm talking SC universe here, seeing as we are comparing M:bots and probes, neither of which exists on Earth.

So, allowing for assuming SC to be real, it would seem that a large number of intelligent organic species settle on shapes that are quite similar. Therefore, i theoretize that the same might be true for mechanic lifeforms.

NOTE: I'm still not convinced we can compare the M:bots and the probe though, afetr all, the probe isn't sentient, it's just a cnstruct.

Add to that: Everything we've seen in SC universe except for Chenjesu, Chmmr, Umgah, and some of the non-sentient creatures are bi-laterally symmetric, even the Slylandro and Orz (well, Orz's *fingers* are symmetric, its *body* might be bi-universally symmetric and non-symmetric at the same time).

well thats becaus starcontrol was made by half people from earth, and half gods that lived on earth for a while

You're straying Chrispy. If we are to discuss something like hat guesst put forward (Why do the probes and M:bots look so similar, perhaps the Melnorme know somethign about the M:bots?), then it's hardly a valid argument to say "Well, they were both designed by the same guys, the guys what did the game." If we are discussing theories inside the SC universe, we have to stay inside the universe.

I mean, otherwise a simple soluition to the Orz/Androsynth question would be "Well the Androsynth disappeared and the Orz appeared because that's the way the Creators wrote the story.". Now while this is very true, maybe you can see where I'm going here?

You cannot compare the Mmrnmhrm to the Slylandro Probe controling unit. The Mmrnmhrm are able to leave their ships (otherwise it would be hard for them to run a starbase as in the Oath of Fealty required, the probe-controlling unit is not (at least it is not likely to me).
The Mmrnmhrm are several on one ship, the control unit is the only one on board. (Maybe with smaller backupsystems standing at both sides?)
And with the probes it could just be an image out of the catalog.


BTW: How were the station-located Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm able to penetrate the shield. They must be able to come out of it the same way to give you some captains for some Broodhomes or so. Except if the Process made that option not available.
What would/will the Kzer-Za do if they'd come to refuel the station and found none on board, but all on the planet? Surely they would recognize what's going on... Or have the Mmrnmhrm and the Chenjesu planed to be finished with the Process by then? Maybe their refueling time was at a lot longer intervals than earth (because the Mmrnmhrm live nearly forever and the Chenjesu are also nearly everliving people)?
And why does their station still have fuel and earths not? (Okay, nobody is left to use the energy.)

Just letting my thoughts drift...

I know you are all going to yell on me (again....) but...

in sc3(your favourite line  :P) and there are some clues in sc2 the chenjesu/mmrhmrn aren't "real races". M:bots ( like some of us call them) came from the uniqe artifact called "mother ark" of our beloved race the "precrusders" ( I think I wrote it wrong... nm) and the chenjesu... well no one really knows but it seems they came from a. eternals ones or b. mr. p. So why the probes look like m:bots? One reason only! The melnorme(again, I am not sure I wrote it correctly) are the mael-num that knew mr.p!!!

Yell as much as you can/want. But that is my thought...

In SC3 the Crux just suggests that the Chenjesu are not natural. There is no proof for it. And if they are: why didn't the Taalo summon the eternalones during the sentient milieu, especially after the Dnyarri took over the milieu and their intelligence should offer enough food for the eternalones? The Chenjesu are after what's been told to you only the backup... But the Taalo just dissapear (*slide*) and do not return (they are not dead).

And silicon-based evolution is not that unlikely...

And the Mmrnmhrm are artificial. But they are inteligent.

BTW: in SC3, the mother ark is on a rainbow-world. In SC2 there is a bit of text, if i remember right, telling you a motherark arrived to this region of space and built these cuddly little robots until it broke down. The Mmrnmhrm just settled near where they were *born*. Yet you find no proof of Mmrnmhrms in the Kessari-Quadrant. The Daktaklakpak are not Mmrnmhrm-like, since they were built as sub-sentient service-vehicles. The Mmrnmhrm were built to be intelligent and sentient beings. Therefor i do not believe that the Daktaklakpak came from an other motherark with the same abilities to manufacture Mmrnmhrms.

And i do believe that SC3 is a great novel based on the SC2-universe (it's not very interactive, too much things are time-based and the ICOM brings you always back to the supposed story-line), but i do not consider it canon, until Infogrames brings on a real good sequel with the complexity of SC2, thus inviting a damned lot of new players into the SC-universe. Since most of these fans wouldn't know otherwise, SC3 would become canon.
But to be real good, too many riddles have been solved in SC3 (no more precursors-seeking, any race can easily be found asking a nice Ortog to use the instruments on the C.U.D. to scan the galaxy, the eternal1's are no danger anymore (you could bring copies of the sentience-cellector to other galaxies, sparing them the worst fate). And the other dimensions in SC3 were really a sucker (especially the quasispace portals). I really hated those!! No fuel-sparing alternative, no other backgroundmusic,... And the Arilou stopped talking. Nothing for your automatic shiplog to record! Why did they get a communications screen? Just the talk should have been enough then....

Back to what Luki said about the combined tech:
The Terawatt laser is the most obvious piece of Chenjesu tech onboard the Avatar. Look at the blue emitter. Gee, looks like crystal to me. My wager is the Chenjesu-part collects the solar energy, Mmrnmhrm-part galvens, focuses, aims and fires, and the Chenjesu-part amplifies.

Perhaps, the Avatar laser is shorter because the Chmmr realized that their power couplings would be more effective (more damaging) at a closer range. Both races fought the VUX, saw their laser's range, but then more than likely noted their horrid regeneration rate, and deduced that increased range = greater stress to emitters/more power consumption/less damage = slower energy regeneration. Quite a sacrifice for a few yards of beam.

Excellent points. I actually do agree with you, and don't feel that the two can be compared as I've stated earlier. guesst, any arguments in favour of your theory, or do we just bury it here?

That and the fact that Mmrnmhrn are sentient beings, and the Probe is not. Wait, that was mentioned... crap.

guesst: Perhaps the notion of disk-on-shaft caught the attention of the Melnorme, and they then built the Probe's control unit with similar looks. Nothing "mysterious".

In SC1/SC2 there is no evidence that leads one to believe that the Mmrnmhrm were Precursor creations.  The Chmmr state that there are design similarities between the Precursor Service Vessel and the Sa-Matra.  No one mentions any similarities between your Service Vessel and the Mother Ark.

Also, in SC1/SC2 there aren't even any clues that the Chenjesu are created beings;  they were supposed to have evolved on Procyon.

If by Mr. P, you mean the Precursors, the Mael-Num were part of the Sentient Mileu, which began long after the Precursors disappeared.

Ahem.

http://www.classicgaming.com/starcontrol/scsaga/races.htm#mmr

Read "Clarifications."

Ahem.
That's not from SC2 at all.  Read the manuals and play SC1/SC2/UQM.  It's not there.  It is is SC3, but that's not what I said, and SC3 is a piece of $^#* where SC plot is concerned.

maybe the slylandro was based on the mmrn-mhrn.

Their ship is a transformer. If the Syreen can sing single crew out of the ship, they must be single entities and not a single ship..... And a starship is a little big to serve upon a starbase or to live on a planet. The mass must go somewhere. And the Mmrnmhrm must be a lot bigger than the Chenjesu if they are the ship.
Either way, except for the Syreensong we have no proof for or against that they are not the ship. And the Syreensong is enough proof for me.

How do the Syreen compell a machine to jump intospace and serve as their slave? And why does the machine die after a short while in space?

Playability must be the word again....

Yeah, but i do not believe that an intelligent Spaceship would need crew, which could jump out of windows, docking-bays, doors, chimneys, ...
And why would anyone want to serve on board of another races ship? I never would, especially if i do not know much about them, even more if it is war and i do not know how they react during battle.

I once met a Druuge ship in space where some of my former crewmembers were asigned to. Strangely enough my former crewwoman Hooter said she does not like serving a Druuge, neither being treated as slave nor did she know how the others are since her ship had a fight against one of the probes. She said she hasn't seen anyone of them, although the probe did not hit the Mauler.
That just supported my view of not serving other people.

I went to buy as many shiny new maulers as i could afford to see if i could re-recruit some of my former members. But I've been told by one of the Druuge-captains that all died during combat with these nasty probes hailing something about peace....

Krulle: Huh? I can't encouter any such text from the Druuge's txt file (http://www.customc.net/staff/sage/uqm_txt/druuge.txt). So where are you getting all that from?

Somewhere between my imagination and my dreams....

Just to clarify why i wouldn't want to serve other people...

Hey, it's up to you. Honestly, I'm just enjoying the conversation.

Personally, I like the idea that, since unrelated biological's have similar make-ups for no particular reason, there's no reason that mechanical's can't have equilly similar make-ups and be unrelated. I mean, what works, works, independent of where they were made. If for mechanicals the main control unit (or pilot in the Mmrnmhrm's case) with 2 units on either side works, I shouldn't be surprised to see most mechanicals adopting that, should I.

Then again, what if my original theory is right and the Probes and Mmrnmhrm are related? Who'd be they're 'daddy' and where'd the Melnorme get this Mmrnmhrm cousin from?

They can be related, even if you cannot compare them. As you said, we do not know from where the Melnorme got the blueprints. Therefor the probes may be modeled after the Mmrnmhrm.
Another thing: The probes can self-replicate, the Mmrnmhrm not. In this they resemble more the Daktaklakpak, although the Daks arfe half chrystaline (at leasst it appears so to me).
But as said, we do not know....

BTW: Did the Motherark have intellingence? Did she gave birth to the Mmrnmhrm as a willing mother or was she just a programmed intergalactic manufacturing robot?

Culture: Regardless, SC3 is technically the next step in the plotline, whether it be $^#* or not.

The general consensus around here is that SC3 is basically corporate-sponsored fanfiction in the form of a video game. PR3 and FF did not write or endorse the story, so it isn't even canon for TFB.

Since we are beings of choice, it is quite possible and reasonable to dismiss SC3 as crud.
This is where Timewarp steps in. Timewarp is a project which is attempting to write a replacement for SC3 - they are attempting to 'turn back the clock' as it were.

(edit: a little less strident)

Because the aren't machines. They are sentient, albeit mechanical lifeforms. They have, for lack of better word, a soul. A psyche if you will. They probably dream and strive, just like biological sentience. Therefore it stands to reason that they can be affected by pshycic powers. I always took the fact that the M:bots were affected by Sirensong to be irresputible proof that they are sentient beings and not just very clever computer programs.

As for why they die in space... Maybe they aren't well shielded? Background radiation in space could "wipe their harddrives" so to speak. Maybe the abolute cold slowly afefcts their systems and freezes their neural thought patterns solid?

As for the SC3 thing that seems to be brewing ehre again: As Death_999 said, its all a matter of choice. some people wish to follow the SC3 timeline, and I do not take it upon myself to tell them that they are wrong, and that that ridiculous story about cows is no true SC. Likewise, I expect them not to tell me that all my pondering is in vain, because a official solution already exists which answers all my pointless questions. Live and let live.

Lukipela: Good reasoning why they jump into and die in space...

Koowluh: If the Mmrnmhrm had their own blueprints, i think they could replicate themselves. Most probably the Melnorme studied the Mmrnmhrm and tried to replicate some of their technologies, behaviour and style, as well as some design features. But seeing how simple the programming interface for Sullen Plummet is, i do believe the optical similarities are pure coincidence.

Regarding SC3: It is not canon (for me), but nonetheless i liked it. They solved far too many unsolvable riddles (who, what and where the Precursors were, are and are going), although i found the cow idea one of their best ideas in SC3. But I'd liked to know more about the Mark II (the promised sequel), the Orz *everything story*, the Arilou-Human relationship (do they stil visit shielded earth, or can earth being shielded not assume the dangerous *smell* others are searching for?); the Orz-Arilou-situation; how the Druuge would fare now that everybody knows about these vilains; the Supox-Utwig symbiotic relationship; the Pkunk-Yehat-Shofixti crammed situation on the Yehat homeworld; ...

When I read this thread and saw this, I just thought of a Voyager show I saw once, where they happened upon all these sentient robots ("We have one like you that works with us.  We call him Data.").  Basic idea of the story was they were trying to force the crew to help fabricate some part to fix one of them.  We ended up finding out that there were these two groups of robots fighting one another and this was going to be a big capability of this group to help finally defeat the other side.  Maybe the Mmrnmhrm are similar?  Sentient robot beings programmed to act like a lifeform in every way, but not programmed with the know-how to repair themselves?  Or more properly how to construct themselves?

You mean this episode (http://startrek.epguides.info/?ID=464), right?


Well, the basic idea of preventing a bunch of robots from getting out of control by preventing them from duplicating some critical part of themselves makes sense. In the Voyager episode, the critical component was the power supply. What I found odd was the fact that the robots couldn't produce a power supply using a different technology or adapt other parts to fit a different power supply, while an ex-Maquis engineer with half an education solved the problem in no time.

IMHO, it would have made more sense if some part which couldn't be replaced without defeating the purpose of the exercise, such as their brains, would have been the part they couldn't duplicate. Producing something that mimics the output of the brain would be kind of pointless (unless you like zombies); you'd have to examine its inner workings in detail to build a new sentient creature (unless you already know how to do it, of course). Building a robot brain that self-destructs in some fashion when tampered with shouldn't be too hard, and the Mmrnmhrm probably wouldn't want to take chances with their limited numbers.

Sorry. But that could also be.... Alas we cannot talk with the Chmmr about it. But seeing that the Mmrnmhrm are not interested ingaining personal advantages, i think it is improbably that they sold a design to the Mael-Num/Melnorme. Seeing that the Melnorme are an old race, i do believe the Melnorme yould design something like that Probe themselves. Which brings me to the question why the Melnorme did not send some on a mission to find the Rainbowworlds or other sentient beings to trade with....

Well, what the heck....

Greetings,
Martin

For the Melnorme in the region, the whole Ur-Quan/Sa-Matra situation is a major business risk. It is in their best interests to get rid of the Sa-Matra (and preferably the Ur-Quan and Kohr-Ah, too), but they can not risk direct action, as this may precipitate a Kohr-Ah investigation and a subsequent invasion. Therefore, it makes sense for the Melnorme to support the Human captain. However, Melnorme moral standards preclude donating the information to the captain, which means that they have to come up with something which would be useful to them that is easily accessible to the captain.

In other words, the trading is just an excuse to give you stuff. :)

this game is asking for a GOOD sequel.

That'd be the one.

And I agree with that one too - standard lack of sense of plot that were in all the Star Trek shows after Roddenberry died.  But I thought of it here, because I thought it brought out a plausible explanation of the M-bot repair thing brought out in this thread...maybe they are incapable programming-wise of repairing themselves or synthesizing more...

Could be a great reason they opted for the synthesis scheme with the Chenjesu too.

Speaking of Star Trek, in the most recent episode of Enterprise, some of the crew were looking for the lost city of Urquat and every time they started to say it, I expected them to finish it Urquan. :)

...in our culture, `giving'
with no fair exchange of goods or services,
is considered vulgar and inappropriate.
Please do not mention this subject again.