The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release => General UQM Discussion => Topic started by: Shiver on September 28, 2003, 03:40:59 am



Title: Multiplayer Melee cease-fire button
Post by: Shiver on September 28, 2003, 03:40:59 am
I just stopped by and thought about the game for a minute. Multiplayer SC2 melee is an eventual goal for this game, I'm sure. But I've noticed there are a few match-ups (not a lot) where two gifted players will go on forever without touching each other. That's why the game will need an odd button or button combination that requests the two ships fighting both withdraw and no longer be usuable in the match which the other player may accept or refuse. I suppose they could just self destruct for the same end, but it would be cooler if they both fled and left a blue mirage of themselves like in single player. If someone trys to do this to the computer, it should always refuse.

What do the forum goons and SC2 team think of this?


Title: Re: Multiplayer Melee cease-fire button
Post by: Chrispy on September 28, 2003, 04:05:01 am
i, as a goon, think it is a good idea, but needs some perfecting. that button could be unbearably annoying. maybe u could only allow it after 2 minutes of something.


Title: Re: Multiplayer Melee cease-fire button
Post by: Captain Smith on September 28, 2003, 05:32:00 am
Actually this wouldn't be a bad idea...another thought behind it, instead of making a button or something do like Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat did, if you run out of time (say 5 minutes - I haven't really timed it, but like I said in the other thread, Supox battles tend to last a while, as an example) the computer declares a draw.

When this happens in melee, it could self-destruct both ships or both ships take off or something - and it would eliminate both ships from the game.  Make this an option though, I can see where a feature like this could easily get abused though too - basically for the same reason there's a shot clock in basketball and a play clock in football - to eliminate hogging for time when the players don't even try to win.  In Melee, you could play time control and eliminate all the ships and win a whole melee based on one favorable contest potentially, unless your opponent got pissed at you first for doing it.


Title: Re: Multiplayer Melee cease-fire button
Post by: umgahbob on September 28, 2003, 06:03:48 am
I'm somewhat against the cease fire button idea. It's not that uncommon for two people of the same skill level to go at it for long periods of time. When my friends and I play, and we get into one of those endless fights, eventually one of us gets impatient and just goes and crashes into the planet.


Title: Re: Multiplayer Melee cease-fire button
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on September 28, 2003, 06:17:00 am
Good idea, but so does cominizem was(excuse me if I wrote it wrong[Stalin and Lenin]). Every time you think about an idea like this, you need to think how people will use it for good, and how people will use it for thier own good, destroying the fun for all just for winning. Now let me think for 2 min
.................................
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.................................
.................................
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A. Annoying repeating withdraw suggestions. Can cause to a player to lose the fight because the messege/messeges are "hiding" the screen, it causes to lags or stuff like it.
B. Key jamming. New button, more trouble.
C. You are faster, you ran away. That way you can "trade" a skiff for avatar. Two things will happen, the chmmr will suicide or fall asleep, or they will withdraw.
D. If you don't want it to show up on screen, you will probably create a sound for it. Once again, annoying beeps repeating themselfs...

But there are good advantages for it:
A. Ending endlesses fights.
B. More realistic then the other idea.(time)

The time idea has advantage and disadvantages too.

The advantage are, literly are the solutions for all withdraw problems. It doesn't bother you all, "I am faster, I run" system isn't working and it doesn't cause to key jamming.

But the problem is the disadvantages:
A. Not realistic at all.
B. Fights can be ended because of time but they are not the kind of fights that takes forever.
C. Little bit of pressure can ruin the entire game.
D. In-game problem. You fight the sa-matra and guess what, times run out just before you are about to enter with the ship and blow it up to pieces! But the sa-matra withdraws and escape!.
E. another in-game problem. If you fight with Vendicor, what happens if time runs out? You withdraw unwillingly? Do you lose fuel? etc...etc...etc...

Like every great idea, the diffrence between good idea to bad idea is the way it is done.


Title: Re: Multiplayer Melee cease-fire button
Post by: Chrispy on September 28, 2003, 07:30:18 am
this should defenatly be an option to turn on and off. i like the idea, but what i liked most about starcontrol when i first played it was the patience option. if ur patient, u can beat a chmmr in an ariloo (wait for him to kill himself out of fustration)


Title: Re: Multiplayer Melee cease-fire button
Post by: Mark Vera on September 28, 2003, 04:14:14 pm
Quote

B. Key jamming. New button, more trouble.


More of a reason to buy two usb gamepads ;)


Title: Re: Multiplayer Melee cease-fire button
Post by: Captain Smith on September 28, 2003, 04:25:19 pm
I'm not talking about an in-main game issue here.  Something like this idea would be horrid for that.  I think we're talking about the Super-Melee game here.

Besides, the player already gets the draw/escape option in the game itself anyway.

Quote
D. In-game problem. You fight the sa-matra and guess what, times run out just before you are about to enter with the ship and blow it up to pieces! But the sa-matra withdraws and escape!.



Title: Re: Multiplayer Melee cease-fire button
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on September 28, 2003, 05:47:07 pm
Draw, no.
Escape, about what you quoted no.

By the way, use your ahem... *sick* side of your mind and try to come up with "negetive" uses of this button.


Title: Re: Multiplayer Melee cease-fire button
Post by: Death 999 on September 28, 2003, 11:58:19 pm
Remember that this only works on a consent basis. If BOTH players agree, they can trade. I suppose one player could be really whiny and demand an upward trade... I know some really really whiny people...


Title: Re: Multiplayer Melee cease-fire button
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on September 29, 2003, 01:53:37 am
Remember that in 100% you won't have only 1 draw suggestion. So read the issue about the "spamming" again.


Title: Re: Multiplayer Melee cease-fire button
Post by: Death 999 on September 29, 2003, 08:06:13 pm
I do not need to reread anything. I am fully cognizant of the spam issue. After all, I pointed out whiny people in my very own post! However, if you have two people in a match, spam is not such a big deal -- especially if the draw-offer is implemented nonobtrusively -- for example, if a player has offered a draw, the border of their ship portait turns green. It doesn't interrupt the flow of the game, and it allows the feature.


Title: Re: Multiplayer Melee cease-fire button
Post by: NECRO-99 on September 29, 2003, 10:09:24 pm
That, and if it's you and your buddy playing next to each other and they keep spam-begging for a draw, it takes very little effort on your part to pick one of your hands off the keyboard (preferably the firing controls) and smack the hell out of them.


Title: Re: Multiplayer Melee cease-fire button
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on September 29, 2003, 11:15:24 pm
Good that was the point of my post. People finding solutions to problems as such.


Title: Re: Multiplayer Melee cease-fire button
Post by: guesst on September 30, 2003, 12:06:43 am
Quote


More of a reason to buy two usb gamepads ;)


Here, here!

Someone mentioned timing the rounds and I immedately thought of making sc2 supermelee more like street fighter zero. Like a StarControl Fighter. Timed rounds. Have a cheesy score counting that doesn't mean anything with points awarded for first blood (and maybe an attack bonus for first blood) flawless victory, etc, and a power meter that when it charges up you get to unleash a super attack! Yeah.

That'd be cool. It'd be nothing like SC2 melee, but it'd be cool.


Title: Re: Multiplayer Melee cease-fire button
Post by: Death 999 on September 30, 2003, 01:39:08 am
Special moves!

- The Utwig dance charges up the battery 1 point if executed close enough to the proper rhythm during victory.
- The Trader can launch balls at a 45° angle if you hold left, then simultaneously right-<release fire button>. This reaiming takes half a battery to use.
- The Earthling Cruiser can use ORION propulsion. Tap forward three times, then immediately fire.  Instead of firing, it drops a nuke out the back, which pushes the cruiser with a higher maximum velocity. This is costs the same as and is on the same reload counter as the main weapon.
- The Androsynth can direct the bubble cloud by activating special while holding fire, then using the direction arrowsand the thrust. However, like the blazer, this continues until you run out of battery -- you cannot accelerate until then!
- The Thraddash can supercharge a Mark 6 blaster shot by tapping fire three times before the second shot reloads, then holding the fire button for a reload cycle. Upon releasing, the shot has half the range and does 3 damage.  The only cost is that of the three shots that would otherwise have been fired.
- Mycon launch a FRIED-like POOF (Protective Orb of Fungus) attack by turning a complete circle, firing (holding the button), and turning the exact reverse circle, then releasing (you do not need to release right away). This is friendly-fire safe.
- Pkunk get super-regeneration for a few seconds if you hit the special key in rhythm with the enemy's comm tune. This attunes your mind to them and enables better insults. It also allows you to hurl continuous streams of molten metal at them for longer periods of time .


Title: Re: Multiplayer Melee cease-fire button
Post by: youBastrd on September 30, 2003, 02:14:44 am
Wow, can people read my mind?  A few days before this thread was started, I was kicking around ideas for a new gametype for TW that was more along the lines of a fighting game.  I've only talked with a couple of people about it, but I talked to them before (and I would guess independently of) this thread.  I guess great minds think alike, and our twisted little minds do as well.  :P


Title: Re: Multiplayer Melee cease-fire button
Post by: Shiver on September 30, 2003, 06:53:18 am
This will probably never be something you can play against the world like battle.net. I expect it to stay between other people someone personally knows, and they aren't likely to spam a cease-fire. With Death999's idea for an unobtrusive flashing border around the enemy portrait, even that won't be a problem.


Title: Re: Multiplayer Melee cease-fire button
Post by: guesst on October 01, 2003, 04:43:30 am
Quote
Special moves!

- The Utwig dance charges up the battery 1 point if executed close enough to the proper rhythm during victory.
- The Trader can launch balls at a 45° angle if you hold left, then simultaneously right-<release fire button>. This reaiming takes half a battery to use.
- The Earthling Cruiser can use ORION propulsion. Tap forward three times, then immediately fire.  Instead of firing, it drops a nuke out the back, which pushes the cruiser with a higher maximum velocity. This is costs the same as and is on the same reload counter as the main weapon.
- The Androsynth can direct the bubble cloud by activating special while holding fire, then using the direction arrowsand the thrust. However, like the blazer, this continues until you run out of battery -- you cannot accelerate until then!
- The Thraddash can supercharge a Mark 6 blaster shot by tapping fire three times before the second shot reloads, then holding the fire button for a reload cycle. Upon releasing, the shot has half the range and does 3 damage.  The only cost is that of the three shots that would otherwise have been fired.
- Mycon launch a FRIED-like POOF (Protective Orb of Fungus) attack by turning a complete circle, firing (holding the button), and turning the exact reverse circle, then releasing (you do not need to release right away). This is friendly-fire safe.
- Pkunk get super-regeneration for a few seconds if you hit the special key in rhythm with the enemy's comm tune. This attunes your mind to them and enables better insults. It also allows you to hurl continuous streams of molten metal at them for longer periods of time .


Good ideas, and I like them.

What I had in mind was a bit different, tho. Have you played Street Fighter Zero or Marvel vs Capcom. In these games the characters have a "power" meter that powers up (3 levels) based on how many hits you land and how much damage they do. Then you can release the power meter (little bits or all at once) in a spectacular frenzy attack that, if the enemy isn't blocking, will deal massive damage and rack up the combo counter.

Aplication in StarControl may be difficult because enemy ships can't "block" (with the exception of Utwig or Yehat) causing any spectacular special move to be a guarentee of damage, making balancing an issue. While for small ships like the pkunk or shofixti, dealing out one of these could turn the tide of a poorly faring battle, but for a larger battle ship like the Chmmr or Ur-Quans could make an already bad situation worse for the defending ship.

Perhaps this could be done like Golden Axe's Magic system where different ships need to collect much more power before even they're first special attack would be available.

I, of course, have a few "spectular" specials I've thought up:

Androsynth Bubble Blast - The androsynth goes to commet mode and flys directly at the enemy ship, leaving a trail of bubbles. When it arrives it slams into the enemy ship, entering and exiting the screen repeatedly. When it's done there is a cloud of bubbles surrounding the pummeled enemy ship.

Druuge Super Cannon - For a period of 3-5 seconds, the Druuge freezes in space, is invincible with an increased turning rate and fires a sustained blast from it's cannon that crosses the whole length of the screen.

Pkunk Light of the Universe - Space lightens, the heavens open, and the Mormon Tabernacle Choir hold a sustained E-Minor as the enemy ship is bombarded with shafts of light lancing through them, ending in a blinding flash.

Chmmr Satelite attack - The game freezes as the Chmmr's Satelites detach and quickly make a beeline for the enemy, surrounding them and zapping the he11 out of them.

Syreen Aria - The Syreen captian enters into a beautiful song that had everone on the enemy ship, even the captian, abandoning their ship for space. The captian, now floating in space, must swim back to his ship free floating in space(hitting any button repeatedly. No stearing necessary) before the Syreen can take full advantage of the oportunity.

I'm sure I've got more, but I gotta go.


Title: Re: Multiplayer Melee cease-fire button
Post by: Death 999 on October 01, 2003, 05:43:55 am
My suggestions were jokes. By including things like that the game has become much more elaborate than the SC battle system, losing much of its elegance and straightforwardness -- IMO, the skill should lie in tactical positioning rather than key combinations.


Title: Re: Multiplayer Melee cease-fire button
Post by: neo_b on October 01, 2003, 08:43:20 pm
About the cease-fire button...

Why not have one for each player?  Player 1 presses his button, and the "cease-fire" light turns on next to his portrait.  Subsequent presses cause the light to toggle off and on.  Both ships would warp out (a cease-fire) only when both players have pressed their cease-fire buttons (both cease-fire lights are on), and 10 seconds have passed (assuming no subsequent presses of the cease-fire button).

Cease-fire would be consensual (no, not in that sense), and spamming would be useless, as it only toggles cease-fire on and off for you.

Just a thought (might be impractical to implement, though), why not have the ships be reusable, but in the state that they left combat?  In other words, an Utwig would NOT regain battery power, a Chmmr would not regenerate zap-sats, a Mycon would not regenerate crew...


Title: Re: Multiplayer Melee cease-fire button
Post by: guesst on October 01, 2003, 09:04:06 pm
You know, concerning the cease-fire button, that's what they escape button is for. (It's not implimented yet in the Super-Melee, but it could be.) If you're that desprate to get out of the battle, then get out.

I know you're talking about making some sort of consencioual dual-escape, but doing so should be comepletly by conversation. "Dude, this is taking to long." "Wanna bail and try another combo?" "On three..."


Title: Re: Multiplayer Melee cease-fire button
Post by: Captain Smith on October 02, 2003, 07:36:25 am
Actually a Mortal Kombat kind of game would be a fun branch for post 1.0 I would think  :)


Title: Re: Multiplayer Melee cease-fire button
Post by: NECRO-99 on October 02, 2003, 08:38:32 pm
There's a helluva fork, UQM Street Fighter. Watch the Kzer-Za or Kohr-Ah get a 20 hit combo in one attack with all it's arms. The Umgah would average anywhere between 4-10 per attack, but it'd be hard to move with them. Chmmr would just electrify their opponents, and the Spathi would sweat all over them.

One game where the Thraddash would actually kick some butt. :P


Title: Re: Multiplayer Melee cease-fire button
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on October 02, 2003, 08:59:24 pm
Nice idea  :P

But what about our beloved human? He will get kicked like nothing! He doesn't stand a chance against 20 hit combo ur-quan, exploding shofixi and the THRADDASH! Not to mention the flying yehats will be a challenge too...

I want to see talana using the knife (it is about time!) ;D


Title: Re: Multiplayer Melee cease-fire button
Post by: NECRO-99 on October 02, 2003, 09:58:09 pm
The Mycon could regenerate HP too, and probably breathe spores or launch some sort of plasma as a special attack.

Man, human's would be getting whupped. Maybe if we had grenades or something...


Title: Re: Multiplayer Melee cease-fire button
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on October 03, 2003, 12:40:34 am
Just put Van Dam character + m60 on one hand and m4a2m203 on the other hand and the human is just fine :D


Title: Re: Multiplayer Melee cease-fire button
Post by: Shiver on October 04, 2003, 04:16:41 am
Quote
Just a thought (might be impractical to implement, though), why not have the ships be reusable, but in the state that they left combat?  In other words, an Utwig would NOT regain battery power, a Chmmr would not regenerate zap-sats, a Mycon would not regenerate crew...


What if a match had only one ship left for each side and the remaining ships happened to be Spathi and Yehat? A cease-fire that puts the two ships back in your fleet would not remedy the problem, while the "banishment" style would end the match in a draw.


Title: Re: Multiplayer Melee cease-fire button
Post by: Culture20 on October 04, 2003, 04:49:49 am
If there are no ships in either person's fleet, then it could enforce banishment, whether or not it's banishment or repopulation for the other cease-fire situations.


Title: Re: Multiplayer Melee cease-fire button
Post by: Shiver on October 04, 2003, 07:20:55 am
Culture20, that sentence is worded so strangely it just sucks. Until you figure out what it means. That is a great idea.

Rephrased (yes, I edit more posts than I leave alone): If both sides agree to a cease-fire, then their ships go back into their respective fleets to be chosen again later. If both sides have only the ship they're piloting left, then the match is a draw.


Title: Re: Multiplayer Melee cease-fire button
Post by: Chrispy on October 04, 2003, 07:36:42 am
Just a random question shiver, why shouldnt i blink?


Title: Re: Multiplayer Melee cease-fire button
Post by: Shiver on October 04, 2003, 10:20:23 am
As a nemesis pilot, you should already know the answer yourself. Now be quiet or you'll scare off my dinner.


Title: Re: Multiplayer Melee cease-fire button
Post by: Chrispy on October 04, 2003, 06:49:57 pm
dont blink or u get eaten?


Title: Re: Multiplayer Melee cease-fire button
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on October 04, 2003, 10:43:10 pm
But what if one side has only 1 ship and the other has 2 ships but the ship in the first side "draw" against both ships?


Title: Re: Multiplayer Melee cease-fire button
Post by: Shiver on October 04, 2003, 11:02:12 pm
Deef Jiffy: I thought about that. The problem would solve itself as the side with more than one ship could pick something else that would hopefully win the game.

Examples:

Let's say Side 1 is a Yehat, while Side 2 is a Spathi and an Androsynth. The Yehat and Spathi are fighting and not getting anywhere. A cease-fire is called. Side 2 can now choose between their Spathi and Androsynth. The Androsynth fights the Yehat and loses. This puts it back to Spathi and Yehat, which is unwinnable. The match is a draw.

The same thing happens later, but this time the Androsynth defeats the Yehat. Side 2 wins.

Now here's a bad situation: Side 1 has a Yehat, Side 2 has two Spathi. I would say common courtesy dictates that the Yehat should go crashing into a planet since Side 1 is beaten both in points and in ship number. In all honesty, this scenario is about as likely as a royal flush in a poker game. Also, this is assuming both the Spathi and Yehat play with great skill and precision. A cease-fire isn't needed if the Yehat keeps letting missles slip past his defenses or the Spathi flies too close.


Title: Re: Multiplayer Melee cease-fire button
Post by: Culture20 on October 05, 2003, 01:15:43 am
Thanks for the correction, Shiver.  Would you believe that english is my native language?  My writing style is a product of the U.S. education system.  ::)


Title: Re: Multiplayer Melee cease-fire button
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on October 05, 2003, 10:07:34 am
I would believe. After all, you have an avatar of Thraddash taking a ****  ;D I wouldn't be suprise about your native speech. And no, don't blame the US education program!!! Blame TV!!!


Title: Re: Multiplayer Melee cease-fire button
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