The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release => General UQM Discussion => Topic started by: Deep-Jiffa on November 01, 2003, 07:03:54 am



Title: Multiplayer on Net
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on November 01, 2003, 07:03:54 am
Yeah I know people already suggested it and there is the problem the lag and you need to rewrite the code and it isn't possible. My idea is, but don't yell on me if I am wrong because I am not a programmer, creating a "mod" to uqm, a whole new game just for super melee in the internet and with time (and ofcourse if it will be done) sc1 strategy mode. That way you don't need to change the code for the entire game just for a small part of it, after all, you don't need to rewrite all of it, just to change parts of it, don't you? ???


Title: Re:  Multiplayer on Net
Post by: Culture20 on November 01, 2003, 07:40:35 am
"A whole new game" is what people have suggested, but for some reason, the non-programmers want networking put into the _old_ game.  It's kind of like saying "Lets translate these modern physics books into Latin; you know all of Latin, it should be easy.  What?  There's no Latin words for half this stuff?"  Granted, there are C libraries for networking, but I'm not comparing Latin to C, but instead Latin to the group of custom functions written which in totality make up SC2/UQM.

When SC2 was created, people were just learning about this thing called the (arpa/inter)net, and the most sophisticated programs that ran on it were gopher, telnet, ftp, email, and MUD servers. ;)  With the exception of the MUDs, there were no networked computer games (although there were some BBS games like trade wars), that's what made them so cool.

The way SC2 was written didn't take the internet into account, so if someone did manage to get it working with the original code, either SC2 or its networking would suffer some quality.  A new game based on SC which takes the internet into account is what is needed (and what several have attempted/are attempting).


Title: Re:  Multiplayer on Net
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on November 01, 2003, 03:55:41 pm
Strange, I didn't read any post that suggests that besides mine. But meanwhile, and I don't think it will be harder. Can you do Lan multiplayer?


Title: Re:  Multiplayer on Net
Post by: Orsquall on November 02, 2003, 01:25:44 am
You mean KALI?


Title: Re:  Multiplayer on Net
Post by: Culture20 on November 03, 2003, 07:57:26 pm
As far as a new game goes:  That's what SCOnline, SC: Timewarp, and all the other clones are, new games that had networking planned out ahead of time instead of adding it as a partly functional afterthought.

As far as the ease of modifying the current code:  I've seen cars accelerate a lot faster than my mini-van.  Mini-vans and cars are both gasoline powered, four wheeled vehicles right?  That's why I don't believe mechanics that tell me that moding my mini-van to accelerate like their cars would be very difficult and wouldn't end up working the way I expected.  I still can't find a mechanic that will do the work for me.  I think they're just lazy. ::)

Can I do Lan multiplayer?  If you mean whether I can program Lan Multiplayer stuff; I could, given sufficient time, but probably not anything that you'd want to play, and definitely not anything with UQM code.  I've done some TCP & UDP network programming before, but it was all for a course that I was taking, and it was mostly data streaming applications; it didn't need to take into account syncing of multiple clients, prediction, or anything that games would need.  :-[


Title: Re:  Multiplayer on Net
Post by: Krulle on November 03, 2003, 08:05:19 pm
Why implement MultiplayerMelee in UQM? For Multiplayer you do not need an AI, therefor Timewarp should do the trick for those wanting NetMelee.
Granted, the feel is still not as balanced as in the original SC-series (including UQM), but it is fine and as Multiplayer Netgame as it gets.  And having more people playing Timewarp might give the core-team a push continueing coding and refining the settings.

I still like it, and regarding its free fan-stuff (d/l for free, coders get no pay, no commercials, pop-ups or stuff like that, ...) i must say it's great!

Just my personal opinion. Smoke it if you want.


Title: Re:  Multiplayer on Net
Post by: Orsquall on November 03, 2003, 08:19:08 pm
Why- isn't TW balanced enough?  :(


The idea of 8 ships in a super meele sounds kewl!

You can do 4vs4 or something!  :)


Title: Re:  Multiplayer on Net
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on November 03, 2003, 08:59:51 pm
Ok, I see that if I want multiplayer here instead of going to play TW which I hate, I should learn the code and figure out how to do it myself!


Title: Re:  Multiplayer on Net
Post by: Culture20 on November 03, 2003, 09:06:52 pm
Quote
Why- isn't TW balanced enough?  :(
Because they/we have accepted every ship that people submit.  The Chorali Extractor's a good example of that. ;D  There's currently a Melee Revision Team being lead by Jumping Peppers that is going through each ship and thoroughly testing them against each other.  They hopefully will rebalance things back to SC norms and maybe move unbalancable/just plain awful ships to a secondary menu, seperate from the good ships.

Edit- Added Orsqall's quote since DJ got a post in between.  ;)

Good luck on coding that DJ;  my point with the car analogy was that if coders who are more experienced than I say that something's very difficult, that means that it would be very difficult for me.  If they say that it can't be done without a complete rewrite of the code, then it's going to take a team of people if you want this new code to produce the same end results as SC2 melee (with added netplay).


Title: Re:  Multiplayer on Net
Post by: Krulle on November 03, 2003, 09:26:42 pm
I like (nearly) all ships in Timewarp. Some are not really good, but have suprising results (as the Chorali, pick someone, face planet and boost).

TW isn't balanced regarding physical effects from the planet (at least it feels quie different than SC1/SC2/UQM), that's what most people feel disturbing.

Nonetheless i like it and i do believe there should be such a game like Timewarp. If it hadn't been there already, someone would have started it shortly after UQM got started (i believe).

Greetings, Martin

BTW: i tested all they have in 0.5u5 (version is called like this or similar), and have removed those from the allships-team that lead to a crash with this PC (e.g. Arkanoid Pincer, Batha Deviant, Confed Cargotran). Some of the ones which weren't already in the list (like the Dajielka Emissary) are really beloved, although the AI does not know what to do with'em.
Ships like the Terran are really useless (it detonates too far away in the preset, thus making no damage.

Please continue to add any submitted ship. - Thanks!


Title: Re:  Multiplayer on Net
Post by: NECRO-99 on November 04, 2003, 02:18:23 am
Heheh, thanks are in order to Culture20 for making the Cholari. I like whumping the hell out of people with asteroids.
OT: I like the Imperial Katana. Nothing like infecting opponents with radiation, and their victory ditty rawks!  8)


Title: Re:  Multiplayer on Net
Post by: Mormont on November 04, 2003, 02:45:17 am
Quote
Ok, I see that if I want multiplayer here instead of going to play TW which I hate, I should learn the code and figure out how to do it myself!

Believe me, it's not that easy. ;) It took me a few months of learning c++ before I could even make my first game (and it was very simple).

However, I am working on an add-in that would allow Sc1-style strategy mode in the game, though not LAN.  Right now I'm still writing the basic mechanics; game engine implementation is a very long way off. I have no guarantees I'll finish it though. There's some discussion about it a few topics down - it's somewhere on the first page.


Title: Re:  Multiplayer on Net
Post by: Krulle on November 04, 2003, 12:56:48 pm
Quote
OT: I like the Imperial Katana. Nothing like infecting opponents with radiation, and their victory ditty rawks!
Yeah, especially big ships like Dreadnaugths, Avatars, Gaia, Starbase, ....
Just stay the hell far away with your next ship.


Title: Re:  Multiplayer on Net
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on November 04, 2003, 10:38:17 pm
Quote

Believe me, it's not that easy. ;) It took me a few months of learning c++ before I could even make my first game (and it was very simple).

However, I am working on an add-in that would allow Sc1-style strategy mode in the game, though not LAN.  Right now I'm still writing the basic mechanics; game engine implementation is a very long way off. I have no guarantees I'll finish it though. There's some discussion about it a few topics down - it's somewhere on the first page.


I know it isn't easy to learn c++, even learning simpler stuff like visual basic( yep, that is what they teach us in school now... :P ) isn't simple. Ok, so I lied ;D but still I can't learn it in few days.

Until I will learn c++, all I can do is suggesting ideas and testing betas versions. Although Lan testing isn't recommended on my computer for a simple reason. I like to tell the world how wonderful my 600MHz computer is, so I don't have lan support! Ahahaha ;'( aha...

Ahem well anyway I don't know other people near me who plays this game because it didn't "hook" people from my place like it did in the US for example.

So basiclly all I can do right now is to talk.

Just my 2 NIS.


Title: Re:  Multiplayer on Net
Post by: Orsquall on November 06, 2003, 12:05:23 am
lol- DJ- I like it.  :)

Hump- if you ever do a multiplayer- please insert a 8 players super meele- will ya?  ;)


Title: Re:  Multiplayer on Net
Post by: NECRO-99 on November 06, 2003, 12:24:07 am
Oh lord, that brings back memories...
8 player war we were having at my old highschool. Myself and three of my buddies (one is the one I make tacs off of) and a slew of other guys that said 'they were good'.

Myself: Cholari Extractor
Nate: Tulkon Ram
Loran: Chmmr Avatar
Richard: K'tang Crippler

We start off vs. a Druuge Mauler, a Harika-Yorn Ravager, a Yush Ranger (how do these guys work?) and a Yev Mech. Nate gets himself all pulled in, Richard starts laying mines, and I go after the Mech. The guy has to close...he does, swinging away, and I grab him.
"Get to the planet, my side!"  I yell at Nate. He does so, and I go crushing-speed at it. When I get there, Mech still in my evil grasp, the Ram is waiting. *BGONG* goes the Mech, flying away. Loran, who had just, as he puts it, "pwnd" the Ravager, targets the Mech and Tractors it in, hoping for an easy kill. The Mech, however, is going too fast, and sails past Loran, but bent it's trajectory enough to lead it right into the now-massive minefield that Richard had been laying the whole time while dancing Druuge fire. The Mech took about 6 mines all at once, and the explosion stretched about a quarter of the screen. We were laughing so damn hard...
Good times, good times.


Title: Re:  Multiplayer on Net
Post by: Nic. on November 06, 2003, 01:21:22 am
Quote
a Yush Ranger (how do these guys work?)

As someone who enjoys that ship immensely, I believe I can answer that:

The primary weapon consists of "lances", as I call them, that can be steered somewhat after firing (hold down the fire button and use the left and right controls to steer) When they hit your opponent, they do damage, but then they also "stick" onto the ship.  From that point on, hitting either the enemy ship or one the the lances will do damage; and the lances can/will stick to each other.  With a modicum of practice, you can create lavish constructs of lances that turn your opponent into "the broad side of a barn," as it were.  Quite fun.

The secondary allows you to abuptly change direction; If I recall correctly it pushes the ship at 90 degree angles, so you can "sidestep" incoming fire.  Not quite as adept as the Supox, but a fairly good "panic button" defensive special.

</offtopic>  ;)


Title: Re:  Multiplayer on Net
Post by: Death 999 on November 06, 2003, 02:14:41 am
I so wish that TW was available for mac...
::sigh::


Title: Re:  Multiplayer on Net
Post by: NECRO-99 on November 06, 2003, 09:16:47 pm
Heh, now he's one away from 1K.

D_999, if you're a Kohr-Ah, why've you got a picture of a Kzer-Za? Thinking of changing allegiances?


Title: Re:  Multiplayer on Net
Post by: Culture20 on November 06, 2003, 09:21:38 pm
If I had a mac, I'd compile an OSX version.  Allegro supposedly compiles for OSX now, so that means TW should work (probably needs a few tweaks).  I'll bet if you pestered us with compile errors on TW's discussion board, it'd eventually work.


Title: Re:  Multiplayer on Net
Post by: Nic. on November 06, 2003, 09:24:57 pm
Funny that, I posted some issues with OSX (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~starcontrol/rpgboard/viewer.cgi/timewarp/3FA9F2810000274C.html) to the TW discussion board last night.  I'm breathlessly awaiting a response.  ;)


Title: Re:  Multiplayer on Net
Post by: Culture20 on November 06, 2003, 09:56:46 pm
Maybe I shouldn't read UQM's boards first.  :P


Title: Re:  Multiplayer on Net
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on November 07, 2003, 02:00:15 am
Then leave this forum and never come back! muahahahahha


Title: Re:  Multiplayer on Net
Post by: NECRO-99 on November 07, 2003, 09:23:53 pm
Yeep, a Killer disguised as a Slaver. Get a bunch of thralls and WHAM! Cleansing time.

Happy 1K!  ;D

Nic: The Ranger doesn't seem to fire anything. While it make it's little swooshie noise and battery drain occurs, nothing seems to come out. I tested vs. an immobile ship, thinking I was missing, but nothing seems to be fired. I had the front little hook of the ship RIGHT in a Starbase's T intersection, holding down the trigger, and nothing occured. I'm sure it'd be an awesome ship (stick them full of needles, then run them into the planet!) but it just doesn't seem to work.
"Tarba-Yeeee" is amusing.  :)


Title: Re:  Multiplayer on Net
Post by: Death 999 on November 07, 2003, 10:03:29 pm
Off-Topic
Quote
D_999, if you're a Kohr-Ah, why've you got a picture of a Kzer-Za? Thinking of changing allegiances?


My Kzer-za suit won second place at a Kohr-Ah halloween costume contest. I got that far by convincing the judges that the Dnyarri really represented an Umgah. The Black Spathi took the prize though. :P


Title: Re:  Multiplayer on Net
Post by: NECRO-99 on November 07, 2003, 10:09:21 pm
OT: That'd be one helluva big Spathi...


Title: Re:  Multiplayer on Net
Post by: Antoine on December 17, 2003, 08:27:46 am
I have a suggestion that may help get UQM online.

http://www.zsnes.com

SNES games were never programmed with the Internet in mind.  Yet, this SNES Emulator allows two people to play together over the Internet via TCP/IP.  It's not the greatest Internet feature in the world, but it works.

What's to say the same type of connection couldn't be made between two people running UQM?  Maybe the developers could get a look at the source for ZSNES.  I haven't seen whether it's coded in C or C++, though.

I hope this helps out.  :)


Title: Re:  Multiplayer on Net
Post by: Michael Martin on December 17, 2003, 11:49:35 am
ZSNES includes a concept of "resimulation" that's completely lacking in the our pre-existing combat model.  That could be changed, of course, but it's on the list of "Wow, that's a lot of work, and it would be easier if we had (a single input interpretation regime, singlethreaded gameplay, etc.)

The reason I personally am so lukewarm about the concept is because I tend towards twitch ships, so by the time I know I need to react, it will be too late except in hotseat or LAN play.

It's not that it's impossible.  It's that we won't make 1.0 wait on it because we think it's a lot of work that 1.0 won't need.


Title: Re:  Multiplayer on Net
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on December 17, 2003, 07:36:46 pm
Wait, you want to tell me now that you will make a multiplayer, after some of you said there isn't a chance?(say yes...)


Title: Re:  Multiplayer on Net
Post by: Michael Martin on December 17, 2003, 10:52:27 pm
Your misinterpret our position on all these things.

The "impossible" thing is that we do it before 1.0, because if we get to the point where we could add it, we wouldn't do it pre-1.0, we'd release 1.0.  Also, as I mentioned, adding netplay isn't a prospect that really excites us, so we wouldn't do it if we had "anything better to do."

However, if a coder were to try to add such a thing, it's not like we'd try to stop them.  It's just that we don't think it's a good use of our time.  (Should someone take this on, do let us know, either in #sc2 or here... if you're going to try to hide it behind the input layer, then I'm the one you'll want to talk to.)

There's still no real interest from the current batch of developers in working on it, though.  If this changes in the future you'll hear about it, rest assured.


Title: Re:  Multiplayer on Net
Post by: Antoine on December 18, 2003, 08:13:05 am
No qualms here.  After all, the most important thing is getting the original game fully functional.

Another post-1.0 add-on I'd like to see is a 4-player battle royale mode (on a single terminal, possibly also over the net).  My friends and I would get a kick out of it.  ;D


Title: Re:  Multiplayer on Net
Post by: Death 999 on December 18, 2003, 08:59:33 am
On a single terminal, key jamming would be intense.


Title: Re:  Multiplayer on Net
Post by: Culture20 on December 18, 2003, 09:34:48 pm
Not if you made it a one-button control a la "Hungry Hungry Hippos."   Of course, that makes it hard to turn, thrust, use your special... I'd see the Chenjesu becoming the ship of choice in a HHH style battle.   :P


Title: Re:  Multiplayer on Net
Post by: Death 999 on December 19, 2003, 12:10:42 am
In a hungry hippo battle, I'd say Earthling or Mycon. Definitely something tracking so you can just sit there and kill everyone. Either that or Slylandro and you only get to use the turn left key... ram everyone into planets.


Title: Re:  Multiplayer on Net
Post by: Antoine on December 19, 2003, 05:04:08 am
Quote
On a single terminal, key jamming would be intense.

That's why man created game controllers.  ;)  If you have the USB variety, you can plug in four of them no sweat.


Title: Re:  Multiplayer on Net
Post by: guesst on December 19, 2003, 06:35:38 pm
Quote
Not if you made it a one-button control a la "Hungry Hungry Hippos."   Of course, that makes it hard to turn, thrust, use your special... I'd see the Chenjesu becoming the ship of choice in a HHH style battle.   :P


...

Oh man, I laughed at this idea. I don't even want to venture into a theory on the game dynamics. Just the idea of two people hammering on the keyboard, and the one who hammers the most wins. I like it.