The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release => General UQM Discussion => Topic started by: Lukipela on November 10, 2003, 10:06:30 pm



Title: Injection 3 : The Dead Worlds
Post by: Lukipela on November 10, 2003, 10:06:30 pm
Ok, I'm going to give this place an injection if nothing else, to stop people from complaining that it's dying rather than simply sleeping. This will be achieved through the creation of a few new topics, all more or less connected to the SC universe. I expect every member of this Forum to post in my new and shiny forums. If you do not, then I will hunt you down with my shiny Synth ship and bubble you. Some of these topics have been discussed before on this board, howver, some may not have been. anyone who feels that i'm simply resurrecting a dead topic is free to say so, but this is for new people as well as old, and we haven't all been here since the beginning you know : Now then, on to the topics:

Those who are now lost to us...

Are the Ilwrath and Traddash truly gone? Are all those worlds now empty? Do you think any of those species have survived, and ifso, were are they hiding out, and what will they do? If they are all dead, does that make the Comander guilty of double xenocide?  And what will become of their world? Will wars brake out as other races try to claim these worlds, eager to discover the technological secrets of the Ilwrath and Traddash?


Title: Re: Injection 3 : The Dead Worlds
Post by: Sage on November 10, 2003, 10:12:30 pm
The Ilwrath have no secrets that the Ur-Quan don't. After all, the Ur-Quan gave them starfaring technology.

As for the Thraddash, if you allied with them before taking the Helix, then humans (and probably other Alliance member races) would have the Thraddash's ship specifications. So that's a bit over half of the sentients in this quadrant. I don't know what the other half (VUX, Mycon, Umgah, Kzer-Za, Kohr-Ah, and Druuge) would do. The only one I see scavenging Thraddash tech might be the Druuge, but that depends on if they even knew they existed.


Title: Re: Injection 3 : The Dead Worlds
Post by: Lukipela on November 10, 2003, 10:17:09 pm
We have the Tech concerning their spacecraft. However, there is a possibility (though remote with the Traddash) that they have other technologicakl wonders on their planets that might give those who discover them an advantage. If nothing else, the Traddash have learned to to reinvent all their technology very quickly after blasting themselves back to the stone age, and the amount of weapons technology they have for (un)conventional warfare must be quite astounding. For anyone seeking to make a quick surgical strike against the homeworld(s) of an enemy, that might be as goldmine.

As for the Ilwrath, did the Quan give them spacefaring tech, or did they just upgrade what they had? Regardless, they probably have any amount of istruments that would be very useful for interrogations...


Title: Re: Injection 3 : The Dead Worlds
Post by: Sage on November 10, 2003, 10:26:18 pm
If by "quickly" you mean 300-500 years, then yeah, I guess they might have rediscovered their old techs (or forged off in different directions during different Cultures).

According to the SC2 manual, the Ilwrath posessed little in the way of advanced technology. It's unclear whether they were starfaring before the Ur-Quan conquered them. If I could access PNF I would be able to gather more information on this subject.


Title: Re: Injection 3 : The Dead Worlds
Post by: NECRO-99 on November 10, 2003, 10:42:42 pm
The SC1 Manual depicts the Ilwrath as a bit primitive before the Ur-Quan conquered them, and, yes, the Ur-Quan did give them space-faring technology.
I bet the Melnorme would have a go at collecting anything they could from the Ilwrath/Thraddash worlds as well as the Druuge, thus sparking a Trade War! Whoo!


Title: Re: Injection 3 : The Dead Worlds
Post by: Lukipela on November 10, 2003, 11:05:09 pm
Still, the point about the Traddash conventional weapons stand. Also, we don't know if the Ilwrath developed anything AFTER the Quan uplifted them. Probably a dozen torture instruments at least, mayhap something else as well? They were a theocracy of course, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they accomplished nothing.. Maybe a radical new way of distributing energy evenly, or some sort of psyche opener, capable of breaking a psyche open like a can?


Title: Re: Injection 3 : The Dead Worlds
Post by: Oatworm on November 11, 2003, 12:31:48 am
Though most of the Ilwrath fleet went to the Draconis system to fight the Thraddash, I don't seem to remember the Ilwrath moving their entire species north.  Since the Thraddash were in no capacity to launch a counteroffensive and strike the Ilwrath homeworld, I think the Ilwrath are much weaker than before (ZoqFot-sized sphere of influence sometime in the future, provided the Chmmr don't slave shield them) but not exterminated.  

As for the Thraddash, since the entire Ilwrath star fleet was destroyed in the war, it'd imply that there was SOMEONE around to destroy that last ship.  It may not have been another ship (especially not a Thraddash one) but perhaps some kind of planetary defense or something.  Then again, I never bothered to visit the Thraddash homeworld after the Ilwrath invaded, so I'm not sure if their cities are still around or what.  Some evidence I could give that the Thraddash are still alive, though, is that even after the Ilwrath destroy them all, I'm still able to build Thraddash ships, implying there is a supply of Thraddash captains coming from somewhere.  Therefore, I'd say neither race is extinct, just much, MUCH weaker than before.


Title: Re: Injection 3 : The Dead Worlds
Post by: Death 999 on November 11, 2003, 01:37:51 am
I agree -- the non-xenocide outcome is much more likely.

"I'm not dead yet! I think I'll take a walk!"


Title: Re: Injection 3 : The Dead Worlds
Post by: Lukipela on November 11, 2003, 01:43:34 am
On the other hand, both Traddash and Ilwrath homeworlds are in ruins, aren't they? And you find no ships in either place... meaning that the survivors have gone under ground and are hiding in some other system. And they are probably very well hidden. How long before they rise again? And will the battle continue?

This also means that unless someone spots them, they're systems can be declared free for all, and anyone can go scavenging for technology, mineral wealth, or whatever rocks your boat...


Title: Re: Injection 3 : The Dead Worlds
Post by: Death 999 on November 11, 2003, 02:11:45 am
Both homeworlds are in ruins? How did the Ilwrath homeworld get wrecked?

I can get it if the Thraddash were wiped out and very few Ilwrath survived, but I don't get that outcome.


Title: Re: Injection 3 : The Dead Worlds
Post by: Lukipela on November 11, 2003, 02:14:50 am
Nor do I, but I seem to rememebr that it was so. anyone care to confirm this?

Perhaps a secret Traddash strike force was sent back to the undefended Ilwrath homeworld. Pherhaps there was a bloody revolution against the opressiove priest caste. Perhaps the Umgah dropped a rock on them (HAR HAR). Who knows?


Title: Re: Injection 3 : The Dead Worlds
Post by: Culture20 on November 11, 2003, 03:24:21 am
If you make the Thraddash attack the Khor-Ah,  befriend them (and give them good advice), then send the Ilwrath to attack the Thraddash both races die out (sometimes the Ilwrath survive as a single pixel sphere of influence).  After they die, you can pick up the Aqua Helix.  Most people don't do things in this precise order though since it takes longer.

If you befriend the Thraddash (and give them good advice), and never send them to attack the Khor-Ah, then they actually kill off the Ilwrath, and the Thraddash survive. (even more rare than above)

If you make the Thraddash attack the Khor-Ah, never befriend them, and make the Ilwrath attack them, the Ilwrath soundly trounce the Thraddash.

I've never done this, but I wonder what happens if you don't make the Thraddash attack the Khor-Ah, don't befriend them, and then make the Ilwrath attack them.  It sounds like another stalemate.


Title: Re: Injection 3 : The Dead Worlds
Post by: Novus on November 11, 2003, 11:18:47 am
OK, so the Thraddash are evenly matched against the Ilwrath, but you can improve their chances by befriending them and worsen their chances by sending them against the Kohr-Ah. I still find it odd that the Thraddash and Ilwrath are so evenly matched that they manage to wipe out each other completely. Then again, with both sides being slightly nuts, it's not entirely improbable that they launch massive assaults on each other's home worlds leaving their own unguarded. The attackers, on the other hand, both end up finishing the job with some sort of desparate kamikaze attack. End result: everyone dead, with the possible exception of some obscure outpost which must be very well hidden.


Title: Re: Injection 3 : The Dead Worlds
Post by: NECRO-99 on November 12, 2003, 11:09:46 pm
The Druuge would head toward that region of space and tractor the planets back into their sphere, thus making them property of the Crimson Corporation. They'd put them in artificial orbit, then mine them into nothingness, giving them tons of resources to build Maulers, then expand their SOI even more!
Auuugh! :o

Conspiracy Theorist? Me? Who told you that? Damnit, everyone's out to get me... They're gonna eventually make me look paranoid, then lock me in a psych ward and steal all my BUBBLES!!! NOOOOOO!!!! I won't let them!!! You bastards aren't going to get ME....
*locks himself in his Guardian*


Title: Re: Injection 3 : The Dead Worlds
Post by: Death 999 on November 13, 2003, 12:30:55 am
Umm, yeah... or not. There are plenty of planets in Druuge space.

Now, they might claim the survivors on each planet, after the defenses had been destroyed...


Title: Re: Injection 3 : The Dead Worlds
Post by: NECRO-99 on November 13, 2003, 12:44:09 am
D999: Familar with Capitalism? The Druuge are. The first law of Capitalism states: "There is no such thing as 'too much' when dealing with money flow or resources." So, being the greedy devils they are, I bet they'd at least steal some of the moons...


Title: Re: Injection 3 : The Dead Worlds
Post by: Death 999 on November 13, 2003, 01:45:44 am
Familiar with capitalism? When the costs of moving a planet across the galaxy would exceed the profit of getting the planet, you do not move the planet.


Title: Re: Injection 3 : The Dead Worlds
Post by: NECRO-99 on November 13, 2003, 03:19:44 am
D, they're greedy, but not fools. They'd find the planets with the richest resources only, take a slight hit in the payroll (more fuel for the atomic fires), but bring back only Ruby/Sapphire worlds, Treasure worlds, etc.
If both races were indeed extinct, I'd wager the stuff on the surface of their homeworlds would fetch a fair penny.

True Koowluh, but how are you going to keep them clean?
I know! Start a new SOI in the middle of the area. That way, you've got the Ilwrath and Thraddash remnants, AND the Arilou as well. Damn...if the Druuge ever figured out DF...God save us all.   :o


Title: Re: Injection 3 : The Dead Worlds
Post by: bigfoot256 on November 13, 2003, 06:57:48 am
Well, chances are something will *smell* them, and it won't be *smiley time* for the *silly cows*.  :P


Title: Re: Injection 3 : The Dead Worlds
Post by: Death 999 on November 13, 2003, 09:42:49 am
Quote
D, they're greedy, but not fools. They'd find the planets with the richest resources only, take a slight hit in the payroll (more fuel for the atomic fires), but bring back only Ruby/Sapphire worlds, Treasure worlds, etc.


I thought you were saying that they would bring back the Thraddash and Ilwrath homeworlds...


Title: Re: Injection 3 : The Dead Worlds
Post by: Oatworm on November 14, 2003, 07:52:56 am
What I'm wondering is how the heck would the Druuge get from the lower right hand corner of the map to, roughly, the top left hand corner of the map without pissing off the green and black circles in the way?  

I'm sorry, but I just don't see the Druuge going in there to take anything over.  

The Umgah, on the other hand, might consider it, seeing as it would be their backyard... heck, with the Spathi hiding out, the Umgah have that entire corner of space all to themselves, except for some Slylandro they'd probably never notice.  

The ZoqFot might relocate in that general direction, seeing as their existing sphere of influence is in Ur-Quan territory and they are probably tired of their colonies constantly getting destroyed.  

Alternatively, the Chmmr might just take over EVERYTHING in that region of space.  

One thing I do know is that the western half of known space (SC2 space, anyways) is seriously depopulated now, which should lead to some interesting results as the Chmmr, Humans, Syreen, ZoqFot, and Umgah all rush to fill in the blanks, assuming the Syreen bother (almost no people to maintain an empire), the ZoqFot notice (they're a little gun-shy right now), the Umgah care, and the Humans can get anywhere in a decent time (damn, that Earth Cruiser is slow...).  

Either way, I still don't think the Ilwrath and Thraddash are extinct... blasted back into the Stone Age, maybe, but not extinct.  People live outside of cities once in a while too, you know.  No matter what happened to them, though, it'd be a LONG time before they rebuilt their respective societies.  In other words, though they may not be extinct, they might as well be for all the good (or harm) they'd do for the next 100 years or so.

(Edited to make another point)


Title: Re: Injection 3 : The Dead Worlds
Post by: NECRO-99 on November 17, 2003, 10:41:02 pm
I've got a method for the Druuge to get to 3 places for a new potential SOI. However, I accidentally pressed my Esc button, and erased all my work. So, after this Biology class, I'll add it in.


Title: Re: Injection 3 : The Dead Worlds
Post by: NECRO-99 on November 18, 2003, 12:52:31 am
Ok, now that that waste of an hour is done, I can show you a possible method of getting a fleet into the dead-world space in order for the Druuge to set up a new SOI.

Let's assume that an expeditionary/entrepeneuering fleet such as this will have 6 ships, three Maulers and three Cargoships. 1 Cargoship would carry the supplies needed to build a new base on an acceptable planet, 1 would carry the Fuel Converter, and the third would be the RU hauler. Enough to start a new Sphere, but not enough to be a major loss to the Crimson Corporation.
Each ship has a Fuel Tank capacity of 60 units, for the sake of easy math. Fuel units, being Druugese, would also probably cost less RU to make per point, around 10 RU I will assume.  However, to accomplish this, they would have to have some sort of fuel synthesis device along to convert RU into Fuel.  I wager this would be plausible for one of the Cargoships to be, as it would then become a permanent outpost once the new SOI was established.


-Beta Persei: The Crimson Corporation would give the Expeditionaries 2500 RU and a swift kick out of the solar system. They'd consume 30 fuel apiece and come to...

-Arcturus: Total RU - 1268 + ~1000 from Burvixese Ruins.
Total RU: 3768 / 10 RU per Fuel = 376 Fuel. Each ship needs 30 fuel. 30*6 = 180 needed, so the Druuge would synthesize 1800 RUs into fuel.
Remaining RU: 1968
From Arcturus, the Druuge would consume 16 units of Fuel and come to

-Alpha Andromedae: Mined RU - 3404 + 1968 = 5372 RU. Quite a bit of Fuel. Each ship needs 16 Fuel units, so 16*6 = 96, so 960 RU is converted into Fuel. The Druuge also discover a Rainbow World.
Remaining RU: 4412
A quick step of 1 Fuel to...

-Beta Andromedae: Mined RU - 180 + 4412 = 4592 RU. Each ship needs 1 unit of fuel, 1*6 = 6, so 60 RU is consumed.
Remaining RU: 4532. A slight profit, but profit nonetheless.
After the Andromedae system, the Expeditionaries would expend 10 Fuel and enter...

-Alpha Lacertae: Mined RU - 2019 + 4532 = 6551 RU. Each ship needs 10 Fuel, so 1600 RU becomes fuel.
Remaining RU: 4951. Another profit.
Being careful not to accidentally enter the Utwig SOI, the Druuge take a 2 Fuel hop to...

-Beta Lacertae: Mined RU - 1217 + 4951 = 6168. Each ship needs 2 Fuel, 6*2 = 12 * 10 = 120 RU becomes Fuel. The Druuge also find some lifeforms and take them aboard. Perhaps they can be bred as beasts of burden for the new miners.
Remaining RU: 6048.
Carefully trodding between Kohr-Ah and Utwig borders, the Druuge burn 8 Fuel to come to...

-Beta Leporis: Mined RU - 1691 + 6048 = 7739 RU, and the Druuge find another Rainbow World. The few biologicals found within the system here must be especially tough, so they are taken as potential beasts of burden as well. Each ship needs 8 Fuel. 8*6 = 48 * 10 = 480 RU to be converted.
Remaining RU: 7259
Now aimed another corridor, the Druuge head for the nearest system. They burn 5 Fuel and come to...

-Gamma Leporis: Mined RU - 3023 + 7259 = 10,000 RU. The Cargoship can't hold any more. Each ship needs 5 Fuel, 300 RU would be burned, and then recollected to max out the RU amounts.
Remaining RU: 10,000
Now aiming at free space, the Druuge would get away from the Kohr-Ah SOI. Burning 24 Fuel, the Druuge would head to...

-Menkar: Mined RU - 1174. They need 24 Fuel apiece. 24*6 = 144, so 1440 RU is burned for Fuel.
Remaining RU: 9734. Not bad for starting with 2500.

Potential starts here. With the Thraddash gone, the Druuge could concieveably enter their ex-Sphere and set themselves up there. They'd have 10,000 RU to start the new branch of the Corporation with. After a few months and getting defenses set, a few of the crew would venture back to Beta Persei, or the Expeditionaries would keep in contact with Beta Persei and tell them of their success, which would send hundreds of thousands of Druuge to the new Sphere, hoping to make a name for themselves.

Were they to continue to Ilwrath space, it'd go something like this.

After Menkar, the Druuge would undoubtedly want to play it safe, and avoid as many Spheres as possible. They'd probably burn 19 Fuel and head for...

-Beta Klysron: Mined RU - 1193 + 9734 = 10927. The ships would need 19 Fuel apiece, 19*6 114, so 1140 of that becomes Fuel.
RU Remaining: 9787. Slight profit is good profit.
From here, the Druuge would take a 23 Fuel hike and enter...

-Beta Mersenne:
I'm short on time, and will finish the Ilwrath trip later. I know I haven't counted crew loss, time, cost-for-mining, and a few other things, but I imagine to the Druuge it would be an insignificant loss.


Title: Re: Injection 3 : The Dead Worlds
Post by: Oatworm on November 18, 2003, 05:07:43 am
This trip also assumes that nobody notices this sphere of influence change (keep in mind the map automatically told you of any SOI changes, and it didn't strike me as the product of superior Precursor technology) and does something to stop it... or that there aren't other races getting involved.  Either way, in the amount of time it would take the Druuge to get over there (at Druuge speed, what, three, four months?) other races would very likely have some kind of operations going and the Druuge would be forced to compete with fewer finished resources (ships, equipment) and no realistic way of getting needed resources in a timely manner.  Besides, why would the Druuge do this when they have a bunch of empty planets in their corner of the galaxy, anyways?  


Title: Re: Injection 3 : The Dead Worlds
Post by: NECRO-99 on November 18, 2003, 09:30:24 pm
I assume the Druuge have already strip-mined those empty planets to dust, and are looking for more resources to consume.
I know it'd take a long time (unless they ARGH!ed a few crew, hehe), but I'd wager that they would see the long-term benefits a stark payoff compared to a few ARGH!ed crew or some damage to a few ships.

Personally, I think if Humans weren't under the slave shield (or once they broke free, and the Chmmr didn't object) that they'd move up there themselves. We're not as "enterprising" as the Druuge, but I bet we'd damn well take an opportunity like that when we saw it.


Title: Re: Injection 3 : The Dead Worlds
Post by: bigfoot256 on November 19, 2003, 07:35:37 am
Quote
This trip also assumes that nobody notices this sphere of influence change (keep in mind the map automatically told you of any SOI changes, and it didn't strike me as the product of superior Precursor technology) and does something to stop it... or that there aren't other races getting involved.  Either way, in the amount of time it would take the Druuge to get over there (at Druuge speed, what, three, four months?) other races would very likely have some kind of operations going and the Druuge would be forced to compete with fewer finished resources (ships, equipment) and no realistic way of getting needed resources in a timely manner.


Uh, but the suggestion was that only a few ships would be sent, making it a more 'covert' mining operation.


Title: Re: Injection 3 : The Dead Worlds
Post by: Death 999 on November 19, 2003, 07:23:32 pm
A few points:

The druuge probably spend the same resources on fuel as everyone else -- it's just that their manpower costs are a little steep.

However, remember that the fuel efficiency for the precursor ship is probably much much lower than for the other ships, simply due to its tremendous mass. So they don't need to use as much fuel as you are suggesting they would.

Also, they haven't been strip-mining their territory. Note the large amounts of minerals you can pull off of planets in their home system.


Title: Re: Injection 3 : The Dead Worlds
Post by: NECRO-99 on November 19, 2003, 08:59:34 pm
D999:
Quote
I thought you were saying that they would bring back the Thraddash and Ilwrath homeworlds...


Missed this one earlier, sorry. I meant they'd be bringing back planets with a large cache of RU potential, and taking stuff from the surfaces of the homeworlds.

Quote
However, remember that the fuel efficiency for the precursor ship is probably much much lower than for the other ships, simply due to its tremendous mass. So they don't need to use as much fuel as you are suggesting they would.


Ok, so reduce the Fuel use I put down by about half, this would give the Druuge Maulers and Cargoships even better chances to get to where they're going with more resourses.

Quote
The druuge probably spend the same resources on fuel as everyone else -- it's just that their manpower costs are a little steep.


Be this the case, I'd have them add 2 more ships that carry nothing but slaves for use in Atomic Furnaces or for Mining operations, about 250 apiece or so. (Theres the high-end manpower costs.)

Quote
Also, they haven't been strip-mining their territory. Note the large amounts of minerals you can pull off of planets in their home system.


True, and that's a mistake on my part about mentioning they do such things. For the trip, they'd be surface-mining, no doubt, as to do otherwise would take too long.