The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release => General UQM Discussion => Topic started by: Lukipela on November 10, 2003, 11:14:59 pm

Title: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
Post by: Lukipela on November 10, 2003, 11:14:59 pm
 Ok, I'm going to give this place an injection if nothing else, to stop people from complaining that it's dying rather than simply sleeping. This will be achieved through the creation of a few new topics, all more or less connected to the SC universe. I expect every member of this Forum to post in my new and shiny forums. If you do not, then I will hunt you down with my shiny Synth ship and bubble you. Some of these topics have been discussed before on this board, however, some may not have been. anyone who feels that i'm simply resurrecting a dead topic is free to say so, but this is for new people as well as old, and we haven't all been here since the beginning you know : Now then, on to the topics:

Ur-Quan : The future

What will become of our favourite caterpillars? We all know they aren't native to our region of space, but do we know if they have a homeworrld? Are they just a roving fleet, leaving slaveshields or death in their wake? Or have they got a huge imperium behind them, that will now either fall to internal strife, or break the Alliance back once and for all? Will the greenies and blackies stay and make their peace here, or will they leave to start iover? Will they be allowed to leave? Will they be allowed to live? Or will the Alliance first act in victory be the Xenocide of it's most hated enemy?

Title: Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
Post by: Gill_Bates on November 10, 2003, 11:44:07 pm
The greens, seeing their greatest weapon destroyed would help the New Alliance to remove the threat of the blacks.
The blacks (Kohr Ah) who are stronger will be a menace in the region for a long time after the destruction of the Sa-Matra.

Title: Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on November 10, 2003, 11:50:45 pm
Yes, I agree. The ur-quan will find another way to survive and not being slaved again. They won't stick with their way "no we are right there is no other way!" like the koar-ah will, who are crazy and will just start "kill frenzy!"("chop until you drop" is more accurate.. ;D).

Title: Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
Post by: Lukipela on November 10, 2003, 11:57:52 pm
But neither race is stupid, even though they are obsessed with their mission. Might they not simply withdraw and regroup?

Title: Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
Post by: Gill_Bates on November 11, 2003, 12:37:24 am
The Kzer-Za are the practical ones. They have better social skills and seem to understand what is right or wrong (sort of). They might accept their defeat and help restrain their unruly brothers.
The Kohr-Ah seem more ritualistic and militaristic and will not stand down so easily.
I think the war will rage on uuntil the Kohr-Ah are either obliterated or suffer such defeat that they cannot deny their losing of the war. Then, they are not above commiting some mass suicide to avoid becoming slaves again.

Title: Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
Post by: Lukipela on November 11, 2003, 12:44:14 am
Perhaps. But even though the Kohr-Ah are ritualistic and militaristic, they won a very large amount of battles during the last 20 millenia. I'd say they are pretty sound military thinkers. So what is to stop them from retreating back the way they came? Lots of worlds that have already been cleansed, meaning no resistance and possibly some leftover minerals to rebuild their fleet...And sooner or later they could return once more.

Going for more practical Kzer-Za, if they feel that they need retreat, what's to stop them from throwing a thousand fallow races at us, to keep themselves covered during retreat. the end of SC2 never states that any fleet was destroyed, only that they wetre mopped up by the Alliance. Not necessarily completely defeated.

Title: Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
Post by: Oatworm on November 11, 2003, 12:52:40 am
This depends on how you view SC3, I suspect... personally, I'd prefer not to, because if it is, the implication is that the Ur-Quan will all pick the "Path of Now and Forever" even though they're doomed to failure.  On the other hand, the Kohr-Ah fleet, according to SC3, was already handled by alliance forces by the time hyperspace broke down.  

Now, if SC3 isn't canon...

The alliance would undoubtedly help the Ur-Quan take out the Kohr-Ah, whether the Ur-Quan liked it or not.  Once that was done, the alliance would then deal with a much weaker Ur-Quan Hierarchy (no more Spathi, no more Androsynth, weakened Mycon, VUX without Admiral Zex, recovering Umgah, no more Ilwrath, no more Thraddash, and a large portion of the Ur-Quan fleet destroyed by Kohr-Ah forces) with a lot more friends and allies than before.  Since the alliance and the Hierarchy were pretty evenly matched originally, it's safe to say the new alliance would make short work of what's left of the Ur-Quan Hierarchy (though it could be argued that, even with all the new friends, most of them are rebuilding, which might buy the Ur-Quan some time... Chmmr just getting out of Procyon, Humans just leaving Earth, Shofixti just starting to breed again, the Yehat having just finished a brutal civil war, Syreen just beginning to rebuild their fleet, ZoqFot rebuilding, Utwig & Supox rebuilding their fleets, etc.).  

Assuming an eventual NAFS victory over the remains of the Hierarchy forces, the NAFS probably wouldn't exterminate them or enslave them, which would lead to a philosophical problem for the Kzer-Za.  If foreign life won't hurt them, and the Kzer-Za don't have the capability to hurt the foreign life, what do they do?  I think, in time, the Ur-Quan would be welcomed back in and it'd be something of a Sentient Mileu Redux, with the Ur-Quan sort of heading off in their own direction with NAFS guidance and observation.  

That been said...

Because of the nature of the NAFS and the remains of the Hierarchy, SC3 (Version 2) could very easily be a remake of SC1 with a different twist.  On the one hand, you'd have the remains of the Hierarchy, with a sizeable portion of its fleet intact.  The Mycon are still probably better off than they used to be.  The VUX weren't really phased by SC2, except with the death of Zex, and I'm sure the VUX were studying his moves (like everyone else) for quite some time.  The Umgah are still around.  The Spathi could be compelled to fight for the Hierarchy again.  

Meanwhile, the NAFS is a different story.  Though there are an abundance of races in the NAFS, there isn't an abundance of ships initially.  The Chmmr are just getting off the ground.  The Yehat just got through a civil war, etc. etc. etc.  Not only that, but two allies with some serious strength left in them (the Utwig and the Supox) are clear across the galaxy from the rest of Ur-Quan space and are severly weakened from their efforts against the Kohr-Ah.  Also, most NAFS forces would be dedicated towards dealing with the Kohr-Ah forces first and then turning their attention towards the Kzer-Za.  Therefore, the position of the NAFS by the end of the Kohr-Ah menace would be very dependent on time.  If they defeat the Kohr-Ah quickly, they won't have the time to set up much logistical support for the kind of long-term military operations still required against the Kzer-Za.  On the other hand, if they don't defeat the Kohr-Ah quickly, the Kohr-Ah will finish the Kzer-Za and basically force the NAFS hand.  This would actually lead to some excellent strategy; how fast can you build up the NAFS, and can you get it done before the Kohr-Ah kill all sentient life or before the Hierarchy finishes you?  Heck, after the destruction of the Sa-Matra, the Ur-Quan might order their battle thralls to take out the races of the NAFS, which would leave the Yehat in the interesting position of facing VUX and Mycon forces almost single-handedly while aiding the NAFS against the Kohr-Ah.

Of course, there's always the Orz, who might help against the VUX, but who knows how many resources the Orz have, much less how many they can commit?  Also, with the disappearance of the Androsynth, it's entirely possible that the NAFS in SC3 (Version 2) might have as dim of a view of the Orz as they did in the real SC3.  

Either way, the Ur-Quan do have a chance... but they'd have to be very quick about it.  If any of you have ever played Axis & Allies before, that'd pretty much be the style of game that would develop (i.e. a militarily superior Axis vs. a logistically superior Allied group who could play a game of attrition if they can hold on that long).  

Just some food for thought.

Title: Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
Post by: Lukipela on November 11, 2003, 01:05:53 am
Excellent. Absolutely excellent. this was actually what I was hoping for posting thiese threads. People who write long answers, examining the different alternatives available, and presenting different solutions. Thank you Oatworm, you have very much made my day!

Now, to replying...

Firstly, I disagree with you on the situation at the end of the war. You seem to indicate that you believe that the Kohr-Ah would continue to battle the Kzer-Za, meaning that NAFS would have to intervene quickly to stop them, or risk the extermination of the Kzer-Za. Two problems with this.

1. The Kohr-Ah  were never going to exterminate the Kzer-Za, just defeat them in battle. If you lose the game, the Ur-Quan will still be around, they will only have given over the Sa-Matra, which leads me to

2. The Kohr-Ah and the Kzer-Za were fighting a ritual battle, trying to determine which doctrine was better. the prize was the Sa-Matra. With the Sa-Matra being blown to pices by filth, I doubt the Kohr-Ah would continue their ritual battle. More likely they would turn their focus to the filth that had now become a threat.

So the Kohr-Ah would prrobably charge head on. After the Initial confusion, their fleet is still the strongest in the Quadrant. This would give the Kzer-Za plenty of time to retreat, and regroup. they might even have time to reconquer a few old Thralls. Or they might fall back to outside the Quadrant and pick up a few of their other Thralls (assuming they have such), or just rebuild.

Any way you turn it, the both Quans have way more firepower than the NAFS. Both would probably be able to blast their way out of the Quadrant taking only superficial losses. As you say, NAFS doesn't really have that much firepower, and after the initial confusion they may well find themselves outgunned.

The largest threat would be the Quans uniting, to take out the sacrilegous Ba****** who blew up their trophy, cleansing the Quadrant, and then moving on in different directions.

Title: Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
Post by: Death 999 on November 11, 2003, 01:08:52 am
What do you mean about the Kohr-Ah finishing the Ur-Quan?? The Kzer-Za have stepped aside, their policy defeated. The Kohr-Ah have no reason to fight them.
After the destruction of the Sa-Matra, well, there are several possibilities as to the new Kohr-Ah Kzer-Za relationship. I do not think that 'finishing them off' is one of them.

Of course, this all really depends on what we accept in our canon as to the timing of the destruction of the Sa-matra... was it after the war was ended? Was it in the last days of the war? Was it when the Kzer-Za still seemed to have a chance?

(edit for clarity)

Title: Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
Post by: Lukipela on November 11, 2003, 01:47:21 am
I'd go with canon being right before the Kzer-Za lose, but that's just my opinion. soemhow i feel that afetr they lose would defeat the story of the next game...

Title: Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
Post by: Culture20 on November 11, 2003, 03:03:45 am
Death_999's a little biased in his timeline.   ;)

Title: Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
Post by: AnonomouSpathi on November 11, 2003, 07:43:49 am
Well, the kzer-za are going to be in bad shape, any way you tally it up.  Socially, their doctrine is now a proven failure - slave shielding all those races failed to stop those races from being a very real and tangible threat, as is evidenced by those races rising up from under the slave shields and blowing up the sa-matra.  Depending on the timeline you use, it's quite possibly got another swift kick from being defeated in ritual combat.

Their fleet won't be in much better shape either, having lost 1/3 of it when the showfixti pulled their ultimate blaze of glory, and likely having suffered even more ravages between the ritual combat and the attack of the chmmr after the destruction of the sa-matra.  Retreat seems reasonable, but which way to retreat? Most of their thralls are either just flat out in rebellion, or in shape almost as bad as they are.

What's worse, is that I can definitely see an Kzer-za civil war breaking out in the aftermath.  The Kzer-za would seem to have no choice but to acknowledge their doctrine's defeat.  Some will likely see this as proof of the truth of the eternal doctrine, and will desire to join the Kohr-Ah, while other's will likely just see it as a failure of both doctrines.  I imagine negotiation isn't their strong point, and it will become an issue.

As for the Kohr-ah...well, they're not in quite so chaotic shape.  The destruction of the sa-matra by kzer-za thrall's proves the flaw in the Kzer-za's doctrine, and possibly ritual conflict has proven this also.  They aren't likely to just give up, but after suffering sufficient wounds, a temporary retreat may be in order.  Likely the way they came from, which, iirc, would be from the general direction of Druuge space.  I would expect you guys can figure out what happens when a weakened, retreating kohr-ah fleet tries to pass through Druuge space.

At the very least, it gives you an interesting possible set up for a sequel.  The Kzer-za rememnants, likely driven back into the vacuum where the thraddash/ilwrath war used to be, the remnenants of their fleet in a civil war over what doctrine to take.  And the Kohr-Ah retreating through Druuge space, only to find the oppurtunistic Druuge attacking them at any chance, hoping to get something out of it.  

Title: Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
Post by: Culture20 on November 11, 2003, 09:37:28 pm
As callously as the Druuge throw away the lives of their slaves, perhaps they would take up the Khor-Ah offer of killing all other sentient beings, including themselves?  They'd be lying of course, but since they throw their own people into furnaces, the Kohr-Ah might believe them.

Title: Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
Post by: Death 999 on November 11, 2003, 10:14:28 pm
I suspect that the Kohr-Ah would fall back exactly the way they vame, passing over the Burvix homeworld again. The Chmmr would probably try to herd them away from the Utwig.

I suspect that the Ur-Quan would WISH to retreat together as a unit but be unable to achieve this due to political differences between them and NAFS strategy. This could be an aspect of the disarray which was referred-to in the epilogue.

This would mean that the philosophical quandaries would not be discussable between the two halves. They might come to very different conclusions.

What might be most interesting is if the split is not so much Kzer-Za vs. Kohr-Ah but just who happened to be caught on the northwest side of the galaxy versus who happened to be caught on the southeast side -- and both are evenly split by type.
Then the Kzer-Za and Kohr-Ah on the northwest and southeast quadrants might independently reach two pairs of conclusions as to what the proper course of action would be.
Not TWO conclusions, but FOUR.
Now THAT's confusion.

Title: Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
Post by: Anarch Cassius on November 12, 2003, 03:58:21 am
I'd say the Kzer-za are more reasonable and social then Kohr-Ah. There is a distinct sub-special difference that was caused by the trauma of their slavery. The Kohr-Ah would be unable to accept defeat, they would either deny the possibility outright or not care and die in their attempt to cleanse the overwhleming opposition. Personally I don't think Kohr-Ah are stupid and would expect them to remain a sort of permanant threat at the edge of NAFS terrirtory, using guerilla tactics on the other races. The Kzer-za would accept defeat and join the NAFS because they do not have the same kill or be killed mentatlity of the Kohr-ah, it would be difficult for them but they would see that they had no choice.

Of course if the rest of the Kzer-za's fleet is fine and still has a hoard of Thralls they may send them from elsewhere in the Galaxy to save their defeated forces near the Sa-Matra. This puts the NAFS in an interesting posistion of having many recovering races in a three way war against the Kohr-ah's weakened but still dangerous fleet and the newely reinforced Hierarchy fleet. I don't think the Sa-Matra's destruction will end the war between them. What was ritual combat may become outright war as each side blames the other for the Sa-Matra's loss and their defeat and the hands of lesser races.

Title: Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
Post by: Krulle on November 12, 2003, 01:10:40 pm
Regarding the common goals of the Ur-Quan:

No species is allowed to become a possible threat to any Ur-Quan. Noone is allowed to kill an Ur-Quan without need.

Therefor, neither Ur-Quan will destroy the other.
During the first doctrinal war, this would have happened, were it not for the discovery of the Sa-Matra. With this Battleship the Kzer-Za won the first doctrinal war. They negotiated rules for the next times they'd meet, to prevent an extinction of one caused by the other.

Regarding that both doctrines want the eternal freedom and safety of each Ur-Quan, I believe the Kzer-Za would retreat to think it over, perhaps found a Concordance of Alien Nations, bringing in all former slaves. Within this military alliance, everyone can ensure the others safety as well...

The Korh-Ah would be more difficult. Seeing their rather simple way of thinking (if they offer you a choice, it's after all no choice), they might have severe problems accepting this situation. They might flee and continue their path of destruction, thus not changing their way at all.
The Kohr-Ah also could come to the conclusion, that they need the thinkers and start to reform one nation with the Kzer-Za (changing from Black/Green back to Doers/Thinkers), thus strengthening the Ur-Quan kind with the excellent builidng capabilities of the Kohr-Ah and the brilliant research and bereaucracy of the Kzer-Za. Perhaps even  reuniting towards the brown original Ur-Quan over the next few thousand years.
Remember, both races have been believing that their way or the way of their siblings must be the only correct way to handle sentient beings for more than 20,000 years.
I cannot say what they'd do. I will have to wait for another SC3's for acceptable answers.

OT: Regarding the loss of 1/3 Kzer-Za fleet at the Blaze of Glory, i assume, the Kzer-Za doctrine would have been the winners doctrine.

Another OT: If the Kzer-Za would have won this second Doctrinal War, they would continue their path as well as the Kohr-Ah would. The second journey around the galaxy would be easy for the Kzer-Za (regarding that most would be destroyed by the Kohr-Ah) as well as for the Kohr-Ah (regarding that most would be enslaved). Therefor, when they meet for a third time, the Kohr-Ah would have had their way, because nearly everone would have been destroyed.

Another OT: The Kohr-Ah/Kzer-Za choice is like the Babylon5 choice of Shadows/Vorlon: evolution through destruction and rebuilding or evolution through cooperation.

Title: Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
Post by: Gill_Bates on November 12, 2003, 04:03:23 pm
regarding the last OT: the Kohr-Ah have learned from the shadows only the destruction part, they have no rebrith designs.

What we are dealing with here is a race of strong minded predatory and proud beings with doctrines that lasted ages.
There is no way they are going to surrender and forget their beliefs. The green Kzer-Za who are more proficient with negociations might devise a ponder of sorts with the NAFS, but they will not surrender - prefering to die before that.
The Koha-Ah who are less talkative would either:

Regroup, flee and try to reform in order to complete their doctrine.


Continue as if nothing happened to the Sa-Matra ignoring the Kzer-Za unless they interfere with their actions.


Attack the NAFS immediately with all their ships and power in a desperate last suicidal attack. The attackers will fight until death.

All of the options should involve the Kohr-Ah trying to kill everyone, the differences are in the way it is done.
This is due to the fact that (imo) they cannot change that fast and all they know is how to fight and rebuild themselves for the next fight.

Title: Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
Post by: NECRO-99 on November 12, 2003, 10:27:57 pm
I wager the Kzer-Za, after defeat, would begin moving around the galaxy again, as they did before. The Kohr-Ah, realizing filth was nearby, would attempt to annihilate it and THEN continue on. Ugh. Not much on conceptualism for the Ur-Quan. Maybe they'd cross-breed back into the original Brownies and then REALLY hose us, but I doubt that.

Here's something to chew on...

When the Kohr-Ah cleanse a planet, they kill all sentient life. Would they then inhabit the planet themselves? They kill sentients, but I don't think they'd extinguish all life on it's surface. Even if they did, they could just start colonies with equipment deposited on the surface from Marauders.

Title: Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
Post by: bigfoot256 on November 13, 2003, 07:12:45 am
Uh, I don't think they do. I mean, look at the Burvixese homeworld. Nothing but smoldering cities.

Title: Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
Post by: Novus on November 13, 2003, 11:22:51 am
When the Kohr-Ah cleanse a planet, they kill all sentient life. Would they then inhabit the planet themselves? They kill sentients, but I don't think they'd extinguish all life on it's surface. Even if they did, they could just start colonies with equipment deposited on the surface from Marauders.

There seems to be no evidence whatsoever of any Kohr-Ah colonies. Apparently the Kohr-Ah also go for quick strip-mining of near-surface deposits instead of long-term development. This makes sense for a civilisation that is continually on the move.

Title: Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
Post by: Krulle on November 13, 2003, 02:08:04 pm
During or after their enslavement by the Dnyarri the Ur-Quan must have left their homeworld.

Regarding that all Ur-Quan wish to clear the galaxy of all dangers, i cannot believe that they would settle down somewhere, at least not the Kohr-Ah. They would get what they need to rebuild the fleet and move on to eliminate the next possible danger. So they are in no need of an homeworld any more, and at least the Kohr-Ah never will be again.

A military alliance under the influence of the Ur-Quan could give excellent protection to them as well. The Kzer-Za seem to be reasonable enough to understand that most species are not after their destruction. So I would guess that they could do it eith a military alliance. Just not enslavement any more...

Title: Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
Post by: Oatworm on November 14, 2003, 07:45:07 am
Here's a disturbing thought...

Neither side wanted aliens to interfere in the Doctrinal War, and aliens most certainly did on numerous occasions.  Both Ur-Quan groups might decide this is a threat to Ur-Quan existence, join forces, and attempt to deal with the 'interlopers' using their own unique methods.  Once they're done 'dealing' with everyone, they'd go at it against each other again.  This would pretty much make it NAFS + non-Ur-Quan Hierarchy vs. Kzer-Za and Kohr-Ah (since the Thraddash, as battle thralls, interfered, all Hierarchy members would be threatened).  This would still result in a race against time for the Ur-Quan (black or green) however; the NAFS and the rest of the old Battle Thralls have more than enough resources in their systems to mount an effective defense if given time and, if given a little more time, an effective offense as well.  The Utwig and the Supox would be hosed, though; their tactical position leaves few possibilities for direct reinforcement, the NAFS wouldn't have the strength right away to mount an effective assault on the other side of Ur-Quan space, the old Battle Thralls wouldn't move over to the NAFS side until after the Ur-Quan hit them, and the Utwig and Supox did the most damage in the Doctrinal War.  On the other hand, if the logistical support structure of the NAFS was sufficiently advanced to build a Mark II in a short amount of time, throw a big Avatar warp pod in the cargo hold, get the Arilou to modify it, and then Q-Space a small strike force to disrupt Ur-Quan efforts somehow before the Utwig and the Supox are overwhelmed... hmm... the number of kills against Ur-Quan forces might directly affect how long the Utwig and Supox have (none = month, month and a half maybe as the Ur-Quan and Kohr-Ah disengage, coordinate with each other, and then attack, almost instantly overwhelming Utwig and Supox resistance).  Then again, the question stands - how long would it take to build a Mark II, how long did the original captain take to recover, how long would it take to get the warp pod modified (about two weeks in SC2) , and how long would it take to get the resources to Vela?  

I think it'd ultimately depend on how much support the Yehat could give (going through hostile VUX space to provide it) how much of the Syreen Star Patrol is left after their run-in with the Mycon, how much help the Orz were willing to provide for their *happy campers* and how fast the Chmmr can get Avatars out.  If they went fast enough, they might be able to hit the Ur-Quan hard enough for the Ur-Quan to divert some forces away from Aquilae and thus prolong Supox and Utwig existence.

As for a role for the original captain... to tell you the truth, I'm not seeing the captain leading strike teams, at least right away.  Logistical support would be far more important to the NAFS than having a really expensive freighter with hundreds of crew risking its existence trying to make pot shots against Ur-Quan forces... I'd see the captain Q-Spacing a bunch of Yehat and Chmmr forces to predetermined coordinates or, to make things interesting, hyperspacing (Ur-Quan warp pods are the only ones good for Q-Space portal spawners?) with full thrusters and turning jets (blockade running!).  After all, with full thrusters, that ship could outrun anything in hyperspace, including Slylandro, and was significantly faster than almost anything in the NAFS arsenal; it'd improve travel time for Yehat ships almost three-fold.  

Just some more deep thoughts...

Title: Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
Post by: Krulle on November 14, 2003, 01:12:01 pm
Not possible though, because the factory is without it's main computer (you used that to control the ship).

Why the Ur-Quan would join, is that both doctrines have the highest priority towards the safety of all Ur-Quan's. No interferance in the doctrinal war allowed, because no-one is allowed to kill an Ur-Quan (except another Ur-Quan may do so if in a doctrinal war).

The question is: are the Kzer-Za willing to believe that the Kohr-Ah would understand the necessity. I wish to point out, how they react when they learn of the Neo-Dnyarri:

"It was as if I had fallen asleep, or unconscious."
"I felt like someone had control of my mind and my body."
This sounds all too familiar... yes, the nightmare begins again.
Perhaps we should contact the Kohr-Ah Primat, explain to her.
No, they will not believe. They are too stubborn and simple-minded.
They will not see the danger until it is too late!
Human, begone! Leave my sight! We must defeat the Kohr-Ah speedily so that we can attend to this new Dnyarri menace.

The Kzer-Za think that their brothers are too simple minded. (They have big brains after all, I believe they are far more intelligent than any non-Ur-Quan life in this part of the galaxy. Just their instincts might be a problem.)
And would the Kohr-Ah be happy under the command of the Kzer-Za, since they assume they'd have the command?

That are questions which can not be with the quotes given by the game.

Title: Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
Post by: bigfoot256 on November 15, 2003, 07:59:18 am
Oatworm: You mentioned hostile VUX space, and I don't think the Quans would spare ANY races. Therefore, I believe the forces remaining with the Hierarchy at the end of SC2\UQM would be intelligent enough to see that they would have to join the NAFS, flee their homeworlds, or be obliterated entirely. I'd imagine most would join the NAFS, giving a bit more power to the force, but would it be enough to defeat the combined forces of Quan and Quan?

Title: Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
Post by: NECRO-99 on November 17, 2003, 10:22:17 pm
What of the Mycon? They willingly joined the Hierarchy, no conquering required.
I think I'd be pretty worried if there were hundreds of Dreads and Marauders in space, then thousands of Podships warped in as well.

Title: Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
Post by: bigfoot256 on November 18, 2003, 04:42:30 am
Well, most of their fleet was decimated by the Syreen. They'd need a bit of time to get back on their feet-equivalents before being able to do any damage. Presumably, the NAFS would neutralize the Mycon threat before this could happen.

Title: Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
Post by: Oatworm on November 18, 2003, 04:55:26 am
Hmm... I forgot that the main computer was in the Mark I... then again, the Mark II is alluded to in the finishing credits, so perhaps there's another main computer, or it was reverse-engineered by the Chmmr before they made their modifications?  This is all somewhat possible, if only speculation, but if it's true, then more Precursor service vessels could be built, and perhaps not just on Vela.  

The reason I'm assuming that remaining members of the Hierarchy are hostile is because I'm assuming that the members of the Hierarchy aren't going to realize that they're going to get slaughtered by Ur-Quan forces until they show up and start blasting things.  Keep in mind that many of these races hadn't heard directly from the Ur-Quan since the time period of SC1, yet they still remained loyal Hierarchy members.  This is the kind of fear instilled in these races by the Ur-Quan; NAFS captains probably wouldn't be listened to because NAFS captains are both unable and unwilling to instill that kind of fear.  

That been said, I agree that the Ur-Quan wouldn't spare any races; even so, I don't think they'd take them all on simultaneously but would instead focus their attentions on vulnerable NAFS races, like the Supox, Utwig, and ZoqFot, and then worry about old Hierarchy members if they happen to get in the way.  As someone before me said, the Ur-Quan aren't stupid - they aren't going to tick off their friends before they take care of their enemies.  

As for the Mycon, the reason they joined the Hierarchy is probably because they knew the Hierarchy wouldn't care what the Mycon did to other planets, while the original AFS would (especially the Syreen).  They didn't join because they just happened to like fighting with spiders.  Therefore, I highly doubt they'd jump in with the Ur-Quan unless it clearly served their best interest, and with the damage the Syreen did to the Mycon fleet, it would be a while before participating in offensive military action served their best interest.  Then again, they might want some revenge against the Syreen, but even if that became an overriding concern, the Mycon aren't a match for most NAFS ships anyways; the Pkunk can outrun them and their plasmoids easily enough, the Yehat can easily defeat a podship, they work great for crewing Syreen Penetrators... I mean, a well-piloted Shofixti can finish a Podship without using a glory device or any terribly complicated maneuvering.  In the end, were they to join forces with the Ur-Quan, they could do some damage, but I suspect it would be fairly inconsequential, especially depending on the timing of Mycon involvement (i.e. they might get involved too late for it to do any good or harm anyways).  

(Edited to add part about the Mycon)

Title: Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
Post by: Krulle on November 18, 2003, 04:16:31 pm
Hmm... I forgot that the main computer was in the Mark I... then again, the Mark II is alluded to in the finishing credits, so perhaps there's another main computer, or it was reverse-engineered by the Chmmr before they made their modifications?

It was found (the grandchildren ask you how you found the Mark II (or was it III?)).

About the Mycon: The Mycon join the un-Voidable Non to learn it's weaknesses and then Void the Non. That's why they joined the Hierarchy. They'd as easily join the NAFS when they cannot defeat it.
But seeing that the NAFS qould allow independend states, they'd just quit the Hierarchy and be free again.

Title: Re: Injection 4 : The Caterpillar future
Post by: Gill_Bates on November 18, 2003, 05:14:30 pm
There's another possibility regarding the mycon and the Quans:
The mycon could find the similarities between them and the black Ur-Quans more than coincidental and decide to join them in the cause ( and what better way could one have for destroying races than using deep children on their colonies and marauders and podships on their fleets).
The Kohr-Ah might actually agree to that, seeing their weakened state and the formation of the NAFS.
I think the NAFS would have to fight two groups of enemies.
The dissolving old Heirarchy and the new PoNF heirarchy.