The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release => Starbase Café => Topic started by: Lukipela on December 28, 2003, 09:27:24 pm



Title: The Israeli situation
Post by: Lukipela on December 28, 2003, 09:27:24 pm
DJ brought up an interesting point saying that Israel is entwined with the Iraqi situation. Now, seeing as I don't live in the immediate vicinity (though I have visited), I know next to nothing about this.

I mean, I knew that Saddam was very anti-Israel, and that he fired on Israel during the first gulf war, but I was under the impression that the suicide bombers that plague your country are plaestinian, and a direct result of the Israeli-Palestinian situation, ratehr than being fueled in any way by Iraq. Please correct me if my impressions are incorrect.


Title: Re: Israel, the home of DJ
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on December 28, 2003, 09:36:33 pm
Well, I remember I heard on the news he gave them large amounts of money for weapons and such. Besides that, I don't think anything else connected to him happened(for example, more terrors attack because saddam is captured).
And it isn't just my home, it is the home of Quarsell too!

P.S No, I wasn't even near a terror-striked place but still seeing it in the News is enough.


Title: Re: Israel, the home of DJ
Post by: Lukipela on December 28, 2003, 09:41:37 pm
Quarsell? Yet another person I don't know. Sometimes it seems the world is full of them.

So basically, Saddam funded terrorism in Israel, is what you're saying. But in that case, him being caught has very little bearing on your situation, since he probbably hasn't been able to fund any activities for quite a while, what with being on the run.

Not that I'm trying to make light of the situation, the Israel conflict needs to be solved, and quickly, but Saddam hardly had much more than founds to contribute. the hatred there seems to do quite well on its own.


Title: Re: Israel, the home of DJ
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on December 28, 2003, 10:04:43 pm
It is a problem..... and It can't be solved quickly! Lets say they get a country and we still have ours, you think it will be enough for them? No. They will want the whole region. Not to mention they educate them to hate us, they have cartoons which tell little children to go outside and fight(I think it was while we were in Gaza, I don't know if it is Gaza or Raza. In hebrew we even say Aza. Tricky city...).
You think there will be peace when they teach their children to hate us? If you do you are wrong.


Title: Re: Israel, the home of DJ
Post by: Lukipela on December 28, 2003, 10:15:19 pm
Actually, I don't think there can be peace as long as netiher side makes a serious effort to get there.

Both Israeli and Palestininas seem to content at this stage to bluster and shout, but neither side seems to be ready to go any further.

If their palestinian children are being given an education of hate, ask yourself this. Why aren't they getting a proper education? Could it be beacuse their parents usually can/wont afford a proper education?

I'm not in any way trying to defend the palestinians here, they do some pretty horrid things. But the Israeli aren't exactly in the clear either, while they may well be fighting for what they percieve as survival, some of their tactics are quite distasteful as well.

On a side note, I did find it ironically amusing that the egyptian minister sent there to negotiate peace was beaten up by palestinians, and in a mosque of all places. That says a lot about the spirit of cooperation currently residing i nthat divided land.


Title: Re: Israel, the home of DJ
Post by: Defender on December 30, 2003, 09:57:06 am
i dont want to come off souding stupid, but what excatly are they fighting about. growing up, i didnt watch much news, and when i was back in high school, my school, due to an error on there part, i got to take the first half of history twice. to count for a full credit. so i missed ww1 on up. i never complained, but now some parts of history elude me. sometimes i can fill in the blanks, and my local public broadcasting helps alot, but theres just some things i missed.

so to make a short post long, whats up over there with all the fighting?

~DEFIANT


Title: Re: Israel, the home of DJ
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on December 30, 2003, 10:18:53 am
Long story... but you want a short post. So lets just say that people didn't like jews around the world so they needed to find a "home" for themself. They choose a place(Israel, I think they thought about Uganda which was the second "runner up"). Ofcourse after ww2(not 1) many jews came to Israel and so on so on in 1948 the UN did a vote and allowed us to create a new state:Israel. Ofcourse they didn't want it to happen and tried to kill us( "Throw us to the sea" by their words) in several wars and we got to the situation we are in today.

If you didn't understand any of this(many don't understand me) we are fighting about who will live and who will leave this region. Up until this day, none of the sides are willing to compromise.


Title: Re: Israel, the home of DJ
Post by: Lukipela on December 30, 2003, 10:51:47 pm
Isn't that a bit one sided? I mean, trying to view it objectively you're kind of leaving out that there were already people living in present day Israel when the UN made it into Israel. People who were less than happy to be forced to move. Which is really where the problem springs from. Had Israel been empty, and not home to religious places of importance noone would've cared...

Not that Im saying that any arab nation in the vicinity is without blame, they have tried to drive the Israeli into the sea on a number of infamous occasions.


Title: Re: Israel, the home of DJ
Post by: Slylendro on January 02, 2004, 02:19:05 pm
as an israeli i saw many times on tv how the palestinians(and some other arab countires too) teach little kids, and i mean little, starting at age 7 to carry weapon, make speeches about how israel is bad and how all jews should die.

i hear many times on tv too, the racism about jews in general, correct me if i'm wrong but that could come up from jealousy from the 3rd world countries, that the jews are less then 1% in the world and making the buisness and money and "controling  the world" -- you have no idea how many times i heard that by other people. i think that's one of the reasons the holocaust ever happened.

-Slylendro


Title: Re: Israel, the home of DJ
Post by: meep-eep on January 02, 2004, 06:58:23 pm
Quote
as an israeli i saw many times on tv how the palestinians(and some other arab countires too) teach little kids, and i mean little, starting at age 7 to carry weapon, make speeches about how israel is bad and how all jews should die.

I think you're making two dangerous mistakes here, mistakes of the kind which are the cause of many of the problems like these in Israel:
1. People are all to happy to believe what they hear, without considering the motives of who is saying it, and without regarding the other side. I'm not saying this scene you described didn't happen, but I bet the tv channels you saw this on were Israeli channels.
2. People tend to generalise. What you saw was a couple of palestinians teach little kids to handle weapons etc, and some people from some other Arab countries doing the same thing. But what you say is "THE Palestinians", and "some other Arab COUNTRIES". I strongly doubt that all Palestinians are like this, and I also strongly doubt that the actions by people from other Arab countries were official government policy.

Quote
i hear many times on tv too, the racism about jews in general, correct me if i'm wrong but that could come up from jealousy from the 3rd world countries, that the jews are less then 1% in the world and making the buisness and money and "controling  the world" -- you have no idea how many times i heard that by other people. i think that's one of the reasons the holocaust ever happened.

One way to unite people is to give them a common enemy. In Nazi Germany this was the Jews (among others). I suspect that many things said then about the Jews were said to strengthen the view of the Jews as the enemy. And some of these ideas might have stuck around with some people in current days. I personally haven't heard anyone say anything like this about Jews, but that might be explained that the circles I'm in consist of well-educated people who usually try to think for themselves.
Which brings me to what I consider to be the solution to problems like this in the world, which would be to teach people to learn to think for themselves. A problem with this is that it's hard for a goverment to control people who think for themselves, which might explain why in some highly developed countries the level of education is still very bad. (On the other hand, this may just be incompetance of the governments in question.)



Title: Re: Israel, the home of DJ
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on January 02, 2004, 06:59:11 pm
I thought I am almost alone here.... this game isn't famous in israel.


Title: Re: Israel, the home of DJ
Post by: Orsquall on January 04, 2004, 06:16:02 pm
Quote
Well, I remember I heard on the news he gave them large amounts of money for weapons and such. Besides that, I don't think anything else connected to him happened(for example, more terrors attack because saddam is captured).
And it isn't just my home, it is the home of Quarsell too!

P.S No, I wasn't even near a terror-striked place but still seeing it in the News is enough.



Hey pal!
Long time no seen!

The name is Orsquall, or in short- Or.  :)

I know for a fact that the Palastiniens were close to Sadam, and when he was caught, they were really sad- and they didn't hide it, you could see it in the news.

However- the issue is not about who likes who,
I belive that the most doesn't represent each and every one, and in the online community everybody should get an equal oppretunity.

If not at real life, then at least in the internet.
Up till now 95% of the people I met are really great, they're all awesome, but lately I'v encountered a community who banned me because I'm from Israel, and they blame Israel for  attacking the Palastiniens and making th eUSA attack Iraq..

That's sad- since I really wanted to help them with things, but if that's what they chose to do..  ???


I'd like to finish with a small story, and tell you, that I, an Israeli - once played a 2vs2 battle in Warcraft, and my random ally was an Iraqi.
Although he didn't really like me, he saved my base twice - and eventually we won, and that's what allying is about.

Also- my cousine founded a clan with an Irani guy, in Counter-Strike, and they were quite sucessfull..

So you see- no matter what you are going to talk about in this topic, always remember that the goverments don't always represent EVERYBODY.

Sorry I'm not going straight with the topic, I just had to offload all that.  :P


Oh- and DJ, I know I'm sometimes away for long, but I'm visiting from time to time.
Sorry about that.


Title: Re: Israel, the home of DJ
Post by: Orsquall on January 04, 2004, 06:33:16 pm
Quote


One way to unite people is to give them a common enemy. In Nazi Germany this was the Jews (among others). I suspect that many things said then about the Jews were said to strengthen the view of the Jews as the enemy. And some of these ideas might have stuck around with some people in current days. I personally haven't heard anyone say anything like this about Jews, but that might be explained that the circles I'm in consist of well-educated people who usually try to think for themselves.
Which brings me to what I consider to be the solution to problems like this in the world, which would be to teach people to learn to think for themselves. A problem with this is that it's hard for a goverment to control people who think for themselves, which might explain why in some highly developed countries the level of education is still very bad. (On the other hand, this may just be incompetance of the governments in question.)



Uhh- well, DJ might have only saw it on TV,
but I saw it for real, and they blew the hell out of the mall near my house (DJ do you remember the attack on Dizingof Center?).


If you're asking why and who to blame, well I can tell you that you were right on the first part of your message: some Palastiniens & Israelis are not intrested in peace (e.g. Arafat, Sharon, and terrorists & settelers).


P.s. Sorry about the double post- I'm just trying to raise my post counter.. I'm sick of being some alien's food.   :P


Title: Re: Israel, the home of DJ
Post by: Slylendro on January 05, 2004, 12:47:35 am
jiffa you'll be surprised but there are many israelies that played SC. i know at least 10 people that played and really liked star control, some of them from the old starcontrol channel but not all of them, of course it has been 4-5 years and most of them grew up and decided that there are more important things then admiring star control, so they left.

and and Or you think you're good?
bring it!!!! check my rec
http://www.battle.net/war3/ladder/w3xp-player-profile.aspx?Gateway=Northrend&PlayerName=Viki-Knafo

i'm just recently returning so there aren't many games yet.

gl hf! :D


Title: Re: Israel, the home of DJ
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on January 05, 2004, 11:08:24 am
Vikki-knafo... nice! (http://www.oap-sloth.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/rofl.gif)(http://www.oap-sloth.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/icon_rofl.gif)


Title: Re: Israel, the home of DJ
Post by: Death 999 on January 05, 2004, 09:23:09 pm
Well, I know a jew who lives in the US. He visited Israel in 1955 or so. His main reaction was, "The treatment of the Palestineans is horrible. This cannot last."

We have been seeing how right he was.

If you have a proud people, and you have taken their land, you're already pretty screwed, because they will want it back.

But if you have displaced them into the desert from the arable regions, and economically strangle them and disrupt their governmental services and provide no replacement, do not expect them to get over the loss, as they otherwise might.

And if you then execute decapitating strikes against their resistance movement, and then you try to form up a truce, don't be surprised when they break the truce, because there is no command structure anymore (you destroyed it, remember?).

And if you are killing three times as many of their people as they kill yours, don't expect the moral high ground argument to work on them.

Just 2¢...


Title: Re: Israel, the home of DJ
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on January 05, 2004, 09:38:21 pm
You made me laugh! "We" kill them 3 times more than they kill "us"? Maybe the opposite is true...


Title: Re: Israel, the home of DJ
Post by: Lukipela on January 05, 2004, 10:26:31 pm
I'd be interested in seeing some statistics on that... It seems that the numbers vary with whoever publishes the news. Israeli usually fall prey to terror attacks, or soldiers are ambusehd. Palestinians get their houses bulldozed, get bombed, and if I'm not mistaken some of them starve in refugee camps? Is there any place where one can get reliable statistics on this subject?

On a side track, two of the Israeli settlements were torn down by Israelis, so we may be a little bit closer to getting somewhere. ALthough I doubt that the Palestinians will be staisfied with anything less than the removal of all the illegal settlements...


Title: Re: Israel, the home of DJ
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on January 05, 2004, 10:28:55 pm
They will be satisfied by "throwing all to the sea".


Title: Re: Israel, the home of DJ
Post by: Lukipela on January 05, 2004, 10:39:44 pm
Whereas you simply wish to throw them all out of the country they once inhabited, and place them in great camps on the Syrian side of the border? The difference is not so great.

Seriously DJ, that phrase is one for the religious loonies, not something to confuse with people in everyday life. I'm fairly sure that most palestinian boys your age, though they may resent you like you resent them, daydream about throwing all jews into the sea just as much as you daydream of  packing the rest of the into refugee camps...

Not even the PLO calls for the destruction of the state of Israel nowadays....


Title: Re: Israel, the home of DJ
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on January 05, 2004, 11:04:46 pm
I want to leave in silence, thats all. Had enough of this political shit. You can blame only 1 man for the situation today: Igal Amir.


Title: Re: Israel, the home of DJ
Post by: Lukipela on January 05, 2004, 11:39:14 pm
Very seldom is one single person responsible for any greater situation. To play the blame game in itself is useless, and to narrow the entire vicious circle of destruction that is present day Israel down to one man is quite frankly, foolish. No offense meant DJ, but there is always more than one reason, more to things than what floats at the top.

I mean, take Finland for example. It is pretty much accepted today that the reason for our entering the second world war was a false accusation that the Soviets used as a reason to invade. However, the reasons for them to make this accusation are many, varying from the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact to their profound worry that the aalandic islands would be taken by either the allies or the axis.

There are always many reasons. always hidden agendas. And very rarely is one side to blame for everything that happens.

EDIT: As for wanting to live in silence and peace, that's whjat most people want. Problem is, there are small groups of fanatics on both sides who don't want peace.


Title: Re: Israel, the home of DJ
Post by: Slylendro on January 06, 2004, 01:25:41 am
Quote

And if you are killing three times as many of their people as they kill yours, don't expect the moral high ground argument to work on them..


you forget an important diffrence, they kill innocent civilians intentionally, israel doesn't


Title: Re: Israel, the home of DJ
Post by: Death 999 on January 06, 2004, 02:15:29 am
Quote
You made me laugh! "We" kill them 3 times more than they kill "us"? Maybe the opposite is true...


Here is an Israeli site, to kick things off...
http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Al_Aqsa_Fatalities.asp

a quick glance over their stats reveals a fairly consistent 1:3 casualty ratio (Palestineans dying more). You do have to be careful, especially with their monthly tables, because the Israelis are split up by location of death.

A neutral source:
http://journalism.berkeley.edu/projects/arccrisis/ispal-casualty.html

Al-Jazeera is not exactly unbiased, but here's their take on it:
http://www.aljazeerah.info/Human%20price%20of%20the%20occupation/2003%20human%20price/March%202003%20casualties.htm

here is another site with ties to Al-jazeera.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

Here is another arab source
http://www.caabu.org/press/factsheets/casualty_stats.html

For another source which can't seriously be considered to have ties to islamist movements:
http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/summit/text2003/0224rkr.htm

and another...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1098353,00.html

In this last article in particular:
"At its core, the letter questions the legality of the "targeted assassinations" that have claimed the lives of more civilian bystanders than their Hamas, Islamic Jihad and al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade targets."

And more generally:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/379379.html

On the other hand...
http://www.geocities.com/palestiniansarelies/PalestinianCosmeticCasualties
But coming from a user whose name is 'palestineansarelies' I can't exactly endorse this either. Especially if they can't even spell 'liars'.


Slylendro said:
"you forget an important diffrence, they kill innocent civilians intentionally, israel doesn't"

Israel has persistently used methods of assassination of militants which are very very likely to cause massive civilian casualties. Like bombing the home of a militant with a bomb which destroyed the entire city block, killing 14 people.
Like rocket attacks, which routinely hit innocents.

Anyway, all I was saying is that if you are killing that many people, you can't expect THEM to understand your good intentions.


Title: Re: Israel, the home of DJ
Post by: Orsquall on January 06, 2004, 02:23:52 am
Quote
I want to leave in silence, thats all. Had enough of this political shit. You can blame only 1 man for the situation today: Igal Amir.



I agree,

that bitch changed the history.

If it wasn't him - then both Israel and Palastine would have been living happily now- for 8 years.

And as for the fight over the land: DJ said it generally but it's much more complicated then you think.
Some of the lands belong to Syria- we captured them after they attacked us (and that's the only thing that proctects us from them).

The rest of the land was given to us when Israel was born.
In the begining it was divided between us and the Arabes - but they wanted the entire land, (might sound weird, but it's true, check the history books), and after they began a war against us, we captured their land, and some other lands (It was Israel VS 7 countries.. ).
Up till now they tried like 5-6 more times to capture us, and failed.

It was our parents who fought those wars.
In the last decade, we signed for peace with Egypt and Jordan, and were about to sign with Arafat too when our PM was murdered by Igal-Amir.

Since then, we're suffering.



Now- enough with the history, I don't like it very much..
If you find what I just said hard to belive, you're free to check anywhere you want.


Title: Re: Israel, the home of DJ
Post by: Lukipela on January 06, 2004, 02:26:22 am
And once again D_999 beats me to the point, and with a bundle of good links as well.

Just try and remember, noone is saying that this is solely the Israelis fault. We're just pointing out that all of the blame can't be laid at the feet of the Palestinians. In my eyes, both sides have tarnished themselves in this conflict, and noone can really claim moral high ground. And the only real chance for peace is that both sides can stand down from this, and really TRY for peace.


Title: Re: Israel, the home of DJ
Post by: Orsquall on January 06, 2004, 05:30:02 pm
Quote
And once again D_999 beats me to the point, and with a bundle of good links as well.

Just try and remember, noone is saying that this is solely the Israelis fault. We're just pointing out that all of the blame can't be laid at the feet of the Palestinians. In my eyes, both sides have tarnished themselves in this conflict, and noone can really claim moral high ground. And the only real chance for peace is that both sides can stand down from this, and really TRY for peace.



Nobody is justifying our goverment,

but remember this:

* Israeli soldiers are kids who just finished school.
THEY HAVE TO go to the army- in 2 years I'll have to go as well.
If you refuse to your order, you'll go to jail.

And belive me- I really don't feel like going around in all those refugee camps shooting and threating people.


* When Israel hurts civilians, it doesn't do it on purpuse, we do it because the terrorists hide behind the women and children.

The terrorists on the other hand- are now planning to bomb an entire high-school, knowing that everybody there are only kids.



Sure- both sides are hurt, but the Palastiniens are blood-lusted (most of them support the terror organizations), just like our PM and Arafat, both of them feel they have nothing to lose.


And again- it's us, the kids- who have to get it on their head..  >:(


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Lukipela on January 06, 2004, 06:16:35 pm
I am well aware of the make of the Israeli army, a good friend of mine did his army service there in order to become a citizen, so I've heard quite a few stories. A few points though, if I may.

Most Palestinians support the terror organisations? Maybe. The State of Palestine that they are trying to set up doesn't though. Again, it's easy to put all Palestinians in the same basket, but feeling resentment and anger isn't necessarily the same as condoning terrorist attacks.

And viewing it from the other side, don't most Israeli support their army? The Israeli army, whilst not officially targetting civilians do tend to leave a trail of dead bodies behind them, especially during their "legal assasinations". It is debatable wether this almost equals killing civilians on purpose, as these attacks always have civilian casualties, something the army surely knows. This does not win goodwill, and I'm not surprised that some people compare that to the suicide bombers.

Please note that I'm not comparing the official army to suicide bombers, but then again, most terror organisations aren't offical are they? I seem to recall several incidents where Israelis (especially settlers) have opened fire upon arabs, and one infamous occasion where an Israeli actually murdered the prime minister. These are the people you could be likening to the suicide bombers. Is there any evidence of the "Palestinian Security Forces" conducting strikes like these against Israel? Doubtful.

You say you don't look forward to joining the army, having to patrol the camps? Well, I doubt that youngsters in the camp look forward to being raided by Israeli Army forces either. Right no, noone is happy.

On a side note I can only add that I'm taking this stance in part because very few people here seem to be seeing the Palestinians view of things. I just dislike seeing a story entirely from one angle. I've had this same conversation in other forums where people have been racking down on "the infernal jewish state", where my arguments (though the same arguments) have come out sounding much more pro-Israeli.

Bottom line, everybody suffers, and both sides pay for it. Just don't think any side is too much in the right.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on January 06, 2004, 08:47:50 pm
First, the guy who killed the PM : Igal - Amir.
Second, if they won't terror attack us then do you think we will have a reason to stay there? No. If they will stop the terror attack then no one will be murdered(maybe from time to time fire on towns next to them...) just before the Intifada.(Hope I spelled it right...). The point is, that we are there just to stop them from killing us! Every day we stop them from trying to enter our cities and mass-kill by a suicider. Sometimes we can't...
I don't blame ALL of them. I blame those who do that, but the point is that they reflect bad image about everyone. Same with Israel.
Herrrr, like I said before, I didn't come here to enter this issue but to run away from it and forget it!


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: JonoPorter on January 28, 2004, 08:49:48 am
I like the wall.
Its a good idea.

but it needs to be completed. or is it?

I dont have anything else to add to this subject that would be constructive.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on January 28, 2004, 07:29:57 pm
The fence is the best idea. They have proved they can't stop their Terror Orginazations so we need to do something about it. After we built it, we no longer have to stay there, so we have 2 options:
1. Leave them.
2. Help them constructing a state.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: FalconMWC on January 28, 2004, 07:31:29 pm
Of which do you favor? (considering you live in Israel)


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Nic. on January 28, 2004, 08:12:03 pm
Completely OT:  Does anyone else find it intensely humourous that an Israeli has the word 'j00' in his sig?

Yes, I am a very bad man.  ;)


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on January 28, 2004, 08:12:28 pm
Honestly I don't care. But as a human being I prefer the second.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: FalconMWC on January 29, 2004, 05:26:50 am
BTW I am probaly sounding like a idiot, but what does j00 stand for? (A computer game?)


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Rib Rdb on January 29, 2004, 11:06:37 am
I believe it means "you".


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: JonoPorter on January 29, 2004, 02:51:07 pm
in the German language all the J’s and pronounced like Y’s.
and on the internet a bunch of gamers started to horrendously misspell words like owned to become pwned because of where the keys are placed on the keyboard. This became know as elite speak and became an accepted way of typing words. Many words are respelled using numbers to replace letters like o=0 r=4 e=3 and so on and they also bring in words from other languages like uber to replace over. Many kids wanting to be “cool” started this and now think they are better then everyone else hence the name elite. It is the slang of the internet.

So when it comes to “j00” you can translate it too “yoo” then spell check it to “you”

This Useless information was brought to you by BioSlayer.
Any more information on this subject will cost you the standard fee of 75 credits.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on January 29, 2004, 05:37:09 pm
I use only one mispelled word: pwned.

The j00 can from someone I was playing with in TO. You see, I am only Tactical-Ops player, not just Uqm...


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Death 999 on January 29, 2004, 08:11:18 pm
There was a bus bomb attack today, killing ten and probably wounding many others. It was in the heart of west Jerusalem, on a bus line heading between two of the region's hospitals. The bus was a block from the official residence of the Prime Minister when it exploded.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: FalconMWC on January 29, 2004, 09:10:58 pm
I belive it wounded 12 of which one died.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on January 29, 2004, 09:41:13 pm
Quote
I belive it wounded 12 of which one died.

I believe you are wrong.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: FalconMWC on January 29, 2004, 09:47:15 pm
Well you would know better than me....


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on January 30, 2004, 01:47:29 am
Those basterds.... They killed them in the day they were captured :'(

edit: to anyone who don't know about whom I am speaking, I am talking about the 3 Israelis soldiers who were kidnapped.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: FalconMWC on January 30, 2004, 01:55:24 am
It is funny how that did not make the USA news.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on January 30, 2004, 02:37:46 am
Quote
It is funny how that did not make the USA news.


The date they were murdered or the fact it happened?


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Culture20 on January 30, 2004, 04:04:42 am
Quote
It is funny how that did not make the USA news.
It made the "conservative" news channels.  Apparently there was a deal between Hammas (spelling?) and Israel where Israel would release 400 convicted terrorists in order to retrieve back 3 Israeli soldiers and one Israeli Businessman.  Hammas turned over 4 bodies.  On the same day, a PLO police officer blew himself up (probably as a way to reduce Hammas' press coverage in the Arab world for their "deal").


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on January 30, 2004, 04:24:44 am
Body=dead guy. Only the business man is alive...


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Culture20 on January 30, 2004, 04:27:12 am
Whoops, American press slipped up then.  They said all 4 were dead.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on January 30, 2004, 05:04:55 am
Well, he is alive but he is a poor man... We are going to invastigate him about what he said to Hizballa. And they have a theory that this whole "kidnape" wasn't real... with some evidence. Oh well...


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Death 999 on January 30, 2004, 07:09:33 am
To clear it up a little, they knew the soldiers were dead when they negotiated for their return.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Slylendro on January 30, 2004, 10:05:28 am
oh please. freeing 400 terrorists just for 1 drugdealer is obviously wrong and the only motive for our prime minister Ariel Sharon for doing this "deal" was to cover his little children's ass.

(his kids took bribe or something in that direction, but remains with their slience right) -- so to remove the focus on his children on the main titles.

this government is corrupted just like every other.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on January 30, 2004, 04:55:52 pm
Quote
oh please. freeing 400 terrorists just for 1 drugdealer is obviously wrong and the only motive for our prime minister Ariel Sharon for doing this "deal" was to cover his little children's ass.

(his kids took bribe or something in that direction, but remains with their slience right) -- so to remove the focus on his children on the main titles.

this government is corrupted just like every other.


I agree the government is corrupted, but what can we do? The people always vote for them for some reason... but I keep hearing people complain about it... They probably don't remember the good times, when Itzhak Rabin was the Prime Minister... oh well. :'(


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: FalconMWC on February 02, 2004, 07:59:43 pm
Well I guess someone HAS to like him in order for him ot stay in office. But does your country enforce and "8 year ruling" rule?

Example: Pres. Bush has been elected once for 4 years. Now he can only be elected one more time before his 8 years are up.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Death 999 on February 02, 2004, 08:21:32 pm
Actually, in the US you can be in for nearly ten years if you assume the presidency by having the president die or resign just after halfway through, THEN you get elected twice.
If you served more than half of someone else's term, you can't be elected yourself more than once.

I think the term (insert groans) you're actually looking for is 'term limits'


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: FalconMWC on February 02, 2004, 08:30:38 pm
Thankyou D_999 - That is what I meant.

EDIT: Though I did not know that you can get more time by having the pres. dead.  


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Culture20 on February 02, 2004, 10:35:22 pm
Ahh! The Kohr-Ah are using puns against us now!


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: FalconMWC on February 05, 2004, 03:18:51 am
What next?


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Censored on February 06, 2004, 05:48:55 pm
Quote
Well, as long as you're here, why don't you stay a while, and have a look? It's good to see an old face, not many around these days. Did you notice that we have a brand new off topic section?


So this is the off-topic section, aye?  :P

politics.. yuck. I don't deal with them much, but on the casualty-count posts I have two points -

(1) considering media propoganda - there have been a few incidents of arab television reproducing artificially Israeli 'attacks'. you could spot those by seeing palestinians getting hit, then an ambulance mysteriously arrives in less than 4 minutes, and this is the good part - if you know arabic you could hear the producer yelling "wait... okay! medics go in now! more fire! go go!"

(2) considering casualty count - for example, there was one time when a vehicle was targeted and blasted by F16s; the arabs say the bomb killed some 20 by standers. alas, the F16's camera footage distinctly shows no bystanders were near, and only a few running towards the car after the explosion took place.


I'm not saying these were acts were singular or that they happend many times. Who knows what television feeds us? what I do know is that if you take ten Chmmr Avatars and one hundred Zoq-Fot-Pik, most chances is the Chmmr will win the fight. But they don't do that. Even if the Chmmr have taken some of the ZFP's space, and even if the ZFP think the Chmmr are Zebranky reincarnated, in the end there would be many more casualties for the ZFP's side.

the Chmmr could wait for ages with their resources; all the ZFP have to do is stop with their attempts at the Chmmr, for a while (got to regain the trust between them), and to open hailing frequencies.




Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Lukipela on February 06, 2004, 06:55:07 pm
And that my friends, is a classic example of fitting modern day politics into the SC universe. Something we used to do back in the old days, before getting this offtopic section.

And I think we could all learn somethign from this. What we could learn? You figure it out yourselves.

EDIT: Oh and it seems to me that the problem is that the ZFP seem to be unable to calm down, as they aren't really one entity, but a myriad of dfifferent groups, some dominated by Zoq, some by Pik, and a precious few by Fot.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Terminator on February 20, 2004, 06:45:33 am
This question goes to DJ or anyonelse who lives in Israel. We get a program here in NEW YORK on Public Acess called JTF (Jewish Task Force) With a man named Heim, who supposedly was involved in the war and is now exiled from Israel, I'm just curious how accurate is what he says they post it on www.JTF.org


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Censored on February 20, 2004, 11:55:19 am
what war?
I personally never heard of him and couldn't find anything related in (the hebrew) search engines.

sounds interesting though!


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Terminator on February 21, 2004, 05:47:58 am
I have some of the airings of it stored on a disk somewhere i'll see if I can find it.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Terminator on February 22, 2004, 01:46:22 pm
Quote
what war?
I personally never heard of him and couldn't find anything related in (the hebrew) search engines.

sounds interesting though!


I really don't know I would it's the ongoing and in fact ending war between the arabs and the Iraelis(no comment on spelling plz)When I find find the data would u like a copy of it?


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Gill_Bates on February 23, 2004, 10:04:39 pm
That site (JTF) is a dangerous site.
Please refrain from using it.
It has extremely violent opinions expressed there with the pleas for more finances and donations to make the impact even harder.
The opinions and pictures on the site are offensive and absurd.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Censored on February 23, 2004, 10:47:17 pm
Quote

The opinions and pictures on the site are offensive and absurd.

The pictures are offensive and absurd ?!!

I assume you are refering to these pictures (http://www.jtf.org/rrr.israel.plo.dolphinarium.disco.bombing.crop.jpg), aren't you?

well, you can do what the rest of the world is doing - keep your eyes shut and look the other way! it's easy to do that when it doesn't bother you.
and what happens when those pictures get to your country? assuming you're from the USA, oh - oops, Sep 11th.. was it that long ago that you have already forgotten? or perhaps because it was only a single occasion? or perhaps because there were no grisly pictures for you to view such as those?

feast your eyes on what's really happening. is that picture a singular occasion? no. I would get you a thousand pictures for each man and woman (at this point) who ended up like those poor children, but Israel refrains from collecting such images. come live over here. just yesterday another suicide bomber exploded in a bus, killing 8 (you can see the remains of the bus in Hague infront of the international court. will that image make you feel anything, or do you need to see scorched human insides?)

Here's (http://server12.castup.net/mfa/incitement.htm) something you won't get a heart attack from (Incitements in the PLO including specific anti-american propaganda)

and here's a video clip from just a month ago (http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?swiU04uq0) (or download full 57mb here (http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?swiU04ur0)). the first of this kind to be published.

Don't close your eyes.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Gill_Bates on February 24, 2004, 02:25:55 am
I was actually refering to the other pictures (like that of the dead suicide bomber).
Yes, it is a very difficult time, but showing the victims in their death is somewhat heartless.
You actually use their death and honor to make out a point.
Do not lecture me about how it's impossible to live in israel, this is not the issue!
The issue is the cold and cynical use someone made of the pain and suffering of the families of those who died in that terror act.
How would you feel if one of your family died in such an attack and then some politicly oriented heartless person showed your loved one in his/her bloody state just after and explosion. What if you could even make out your relative from the mess and say "hey here's Ronnie!".
This is what I am against.
Terror is bad, and those who do it are evil but so are those who use terror to further their own goals.
So, stop acting offended and look at that site as it really is:
Cold, heartless and totally unecessary.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Censored on February 24, 2004, 03:58:47 pm
I agree that that website is a bit inciting, and I'm not saying that it makes me want to give them money (nor should anyone else); but they're mostly just stating facts. you should read between the lines and not disqualify it just because they're asking for money.

people don't really give a damn. people don't really think about "how" it happend, only the statistics. I'd tell you 8 Israeli civilians were killed by a suicide bomber, and you'd tell me "sure, but 16 palestinians, some 15-years old, were killed by Israeli soldiers!" (or simply "woah. that's sad. oh well")

what's the difference? These photos tell you the difference. that's why it's important to show them. it's important for readers to understand that Israeli civilians were killed by a terrorist and Palestinian terrorists were killed by soldiers.
(*why 16-years old? how come you hear about PLO children getting killed? that's because either they're holding a weapon and shooting or the older ones hold them as human shields).


P.S
and I'm not lecturing on how hard it is to live in Israel. It's not that hard, this isn't some third-world country. I'm just hoping I can make people see our point of view of the situation.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on February 24, 2004, 08:03:59 pm
Why do people don't understand the situation we are living in? Because we have honor to the victims of suicide bombing and we don't show pictures of them! But the other side, on the other hand, don't really give a damn about their own people and do everything to show they are hurt.

And if you ask me, the main diffrence between the people our soldiers kill between Israelis who are killed is that we don't aim for children, women or just anyone who didn't do a thing. We must somehow stop the terrorists among them! But they, sends suicide bombers to kill innocent people on purpose. DId you know they sent a suicde bomber to some school, but with luck we stopped him?
This is why we build the fence, we must somehow stop this, and they don't want in peaceful ways.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Death 999 on February 24, 2004, 10:03:59 pm
Quote
... don't really give a damn about their own people...


Why do you think that?
Who are you talking about?
Does it even make sense?

-------

Quick question -- Why did the fence route go through the middle of Palestinean territory?

Another quick question -- what do you know about Israeli settlements?


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on February 24, 2004, 10:25:10 pm
Quick answer : Ask my prime minister, I am just glad there is one.
Another quick answer: Which one you refer to?


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: NECRO-99 on February 25, 2004, 03:55:09 am
Gill_Bates:
Quote
Terror is bad, and those who do it are evil but so are those who use terror to further their own goals.


Terror is bad?
You an citizen of the United States?
If you've answered yes, congratulations! You're living in a country that was founded on terror!
The Puritans were kicked out of England because the rest of England feared them. Were they terrorists? Not in the political sense that's slapped to it these days, but back then they were.
If that's too far back in time for you, look at World War II and the Cold War. We used terror to further our own causes. (It's still in debate, but...)The gov't allowed the Pearl Harbor attacks, causing us terror. Hundreds died. Terror was soon followed with anger and anger meant retribution. That retribution came in Enola Gay.
Cold War: We used terror as much as the Soviets used terror to keep each other from firing our plethora of ICBM's at one another.
Even today, our politicians use fear to their advantage. John Kerry was quoted in the New York Times as saying the U.S. needed to "lay the hammer down" in Haiti. Since nothing has happened yet, I would say it was meant as a deterrent, with the fear of U.S. troops as it's primary purveyor.

Yes, I'm saying the U.S. uses terror tactics to get advantages. We always have, and always will.
Welcome to the real world.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on February 25, 2004, 04:16:00 am
So you say that sending suicide bombers to buses, schools, resturants and other crowded places is ok? Let me tell you are little story...

Did you know that after a suicide bomber explode, the surviving victims get in their flesh small parts of him. I mean real small parts. Smaller than hairs. And ofcourse no one will remove it since it requires a surgery and it doesn't really matters if it is there or not. What is so horrible about this? There was a terror strike on some place... I don't recall which one, but the point is that the suicide bomber had a disease, don't remember which one, but something that can kill you. Now they don't report it(we don't want to get ideas in their heads), but I am sure every suicide bombers they send has the same disease or HIV or such.

P.S: To any Israeli who reads this, I have two things to say:
A. Confirm me this story, I am sure in 90% that it is true, but I want to be 100%.
B. For the ones who fear they will read it and come up with ideas, don't worry. I am sure they don't have computers to read this. And even if they have, I don't think they play uqm.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Terminator on February 25, 2004, 11:36:45 pm
Quote
(It's still in debate, but...)The gov't allowed the Pearl Harbor attacks, causing us terror. Hundreds died.


Technically unless my memory is failing me at the time we knew the jap would strike didn't know when or where.  And also due to spending issues F.D.R. relocated the battleships his ancestor had T.R. built to Pearl Harbor to allow the building of more modern battleships (I guess it wasn't cost-effective or feasable to renovate then.)


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on February 26, 2004, 12:40:09 am
Mr.Terminator no offense but I have two things to say to you:
1. I didn't create it, why did you say this to ME?
2. Anyone said there is a limit of pages for threads? People will post in it as long as they have something to say about it!

edit:
Make it three: If you don't like this thread you don't have to read it or post in it. It is a free forum as far as I remember. I don't read every single thread in here and neither should you!(unless everything in here is intresting for you)


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Ivan Ivanov on February 26, 2004, 01:19:23 pm
Alrighty I think I understand what's going on.
The Palestinians are under occupation by Isreal so they keep sending suicide bombers and doing other generally nasty things, so the Israelis feel threatened and respond with nastiness of their own.

Now most 5 year olds would see that it's circular: you cant expect the Isrealis to be nice if they are bombed regularly and you cant expect the Palestinians to stop bombing if you keep building walls right through the middles of their houses and doing other Not So Nice Things.

Also an avarage 5 year old would see that such a problem can only be solved by peaceful negotiations because neither side will win by bombing the hell out of one another .

Since peaceful negotiations have failed misrebly I see only one solution:

(http://fabrix.waw.pl/a/jasiek/abomb.gif)

NUKE 'EM!!!!!!
BOTH of them.

The general outcome is the same: ashes and dust. The only difference is that it would take much more time for Isrealis and Palestinians to do it on their own.

---------------------------------------------

Ladies and Gentlemen please don't take it TOO seriously.
I understand that the stiuation there is tragic. But I think it's tragic not only because of death of the innocent, it's tragic also because both sides are too stupid to calm down, have a chat and settle their differences in a civilised way.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: NECRO-99 on February 27, 2004, 10:43:49 pm
DJ, I'm not condoning terror, I'm simply stating it's the easiest way to gain compliance with someone or a group of people. Hell, even countries. The U.S. uses scare tactics all the time, but you never hear about them because if anyone dared to make a report about it, these scares would probably become the living hell nightmares of whoever made the report.

Suicide bombers, "martyrs for the cause", have something screwed up in their heads. I believe in causes too, but I don't think there's ONE cause in the world that I'd die for. I'd only die for living, breathing people that can carry on their lives and do so affecting the world in a better way than I could, not for moralistic ideas or religious zealotry.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Culture20 on March 18, 2004, 08:17:30 pm
The most current example: Spain


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Terminator on March 19, 2004, 04:37:39 am
Quote
DJ, I'm not condoning terror, I'm simply stating it's the easiest way to gain compliance with someone or a group of people. Hell, even countries. The U.S. uses scare tactics all the time, but you never hear about them because if anyone dared to make a report about it, these scares would probably become the living hell nightmares of whoever made the report.

Suicide bombers, "martyrs for the cause", have something screwed up in their heads. I believe in causes too, but I don't think there's ONE cause in the world that I'd die for. I'd only die for living, breathing people that can carry on their lives and do so affecting the world in a better way than I could, not for moralistic ideas or religious zealotry.


Fear is used all the time as a way of controling the population making them conform.
"People afraid to commit crimes because they are afraid to go to prison,  People are afraid to "sin" out of fear of hell." George Carlin(not an exact quote but you get the basic idea.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Lukipela on March 20, 2004, 06:20:50 pm
I'm not so sure I agree with that. Sure, it's true for some people, but I've always felt that if the only reason you don't commit crimes is a fear of getting caught, then there must have been some serious gaps in your upbringing. If the only reason you don't "sin" is a fear of "hell", then aren't you a "sinner" anyway? just one who does not act out on your sins.

Let me elaborate. If you look around in any city today, you'll see untold opportunities to commit crimes, both for fun and for profit.

Vandalism for example. the chances of you getting caught for throwing a rock through a window in a larger suburban area, or smaller city centre is extremmyely low. In my hometown (pop 15.000) the closest police unit during the week can sometimes take up to 20 mins to arrive at the scene of the crime, and by then you'll be looong gone.

Shoplifting is a example of crime for profit. Most stores aren't that advanced, and smaller stores are generally very easy to steal from, as they have no electronicc alarms.

My point? even with these situations, where it is virtually guaranteed that you don't get caught, it still doesn't happen. Oh sure, there is some vandalism, some shoplifting, there are always bad seeds. But not to the extent there would be if what you wrote was really true. Most people simply don't do these things, because they've been taught that it's not right. where not especially religious over here either, so I doubt that vandalistic onslaught is being held at bay by fear of the devil.

So I believe what most people will do thins simply because they've been taught that it's right. Because deep down most of us has the urge to be good.

Now, you may think I'm just a wee bit off topic, so I'll be steering back on to it with a small comment.

Consider a suicide bomber. If he/she grows up in a place where it is viewed to be right and good to give your life to the cause, then why should it be any surprise that there are many people ready to do so? this isn't brainwashing in any sense, it's a cultural value instilled from to generation to rather rapid generation. and if we really want to get to the bottom of this problem, ever, we really need to figure out a way to influence this culture, to steer it gently away from its current course, and shatter the beliefs of martyrdom that powers this kind of thinking. And I doubt this can be achieved with guns. Nor that it will in any way be easy. It's gonna be ahrd as hell. But we have to try. Why? because we want to do the right thing.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Censored on March 20, 2004, 08:12:08 pm
Quote
.. and if we really want to get to the bottom of this problem, ever, we really need to figure out a way to influence this culture, to steer it gently away from its current course, and shatter the beliefs of martyrdom that powers this kind of thinking. And I doubt this can be achieved with guns. Nor that it will in any way be easy. It's gonna be ahrd as hell. But we have to try. Why? because we want to do the right thing.


Which brings up the question, did the Alliance try to steer the Shofixti out of their suicide missions, just for the moral of life?
As for the current topic, there's nothing much the Israelis can do against the incitement in Palestinian schools, aside, of course, from what already has been tried.

I personally believe all reasonable attempts have been exausted, and building a sophisticated physical border (the "fence") is in fact a good idea. Hey, it worked for China!


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Lukipela on March 21, 2004, 03:42:23 pm
See, this is why I like it when you drop in... An interesting mroal queestion. While the Shofixti see suicide strikes as a valid last resort, the rest of the alliance probably does not feel the same way, especially the wussier races such as hunams and Chenjesu. And yet, they do not seem to object to the massive waste of shofixti life. Now, there are a few different alternatives here that readily present themselves.

1. Desperate times call for desperate measures. The alliance was simply in too much of a bind for the Chenjesu faction to be able to stop this, as a loss of the Shofixti novas would have meant a great loss to the offensive AND defensive capability of the alliance. Possibly the others were going to put a stop to this after the war, but during hostilities it was just too much of a resource.

2. Free will and individual culture. While some elements in the alliance felt that the  way of the shofixti was harsh and primitive, alliance rules may still have stated that all alliance partners had to respect the quirks of the other cultures, in a Star Trekkish way. The Yehat clarly violated this when they uplifted the Shofixit, but I'm not sure if this was before or afetr the Yehat themselves entered the Alliance. Non-interference in cultural matters may well mean that the other races were powerless to stop the rodents from detonating at will.

3. Conformity. Seeing as it is not mentioned in any manual, it is quite possible that this kind of behaviour was routinely used and accepted by all members of the alliance. It may have been quite a common sight to see a crippled Earth Cruiser ram it's way into a Ilwrath, but due to game engine specifics we weren't able to do it.

Hmm, anyone else come up with any other theory?

Going back on the original topic, while I intensly dislike the thought of that fence,  it may well be the only possibility at the moment.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: FalconMWC on March 21, 2004, 05:35:43 pm
Well, when I think about it the shofixti and the humans/chenjesu were in a very different situation. See, as you migh remember the quotes, the chenjesu got their finest ships destroyed at ten times their own weapons range. By what else but the (If you have beat the game you know) (I don't want to spoil it for anyone). Therefore, it was pointless to charge against a ship that will kill everyone without getting close and at least damaging it.

However one the Shofixti side, they were attacked by dreadnoughts. The dreadnoughts were obviously not invincible and were just asking for the bomb when they entered the star system.


Now the question is, would the humans/chenjesu blew up the bomb as the shofixti did. I think probaly, but they would have tried to get most of there troops out and than have them volenteer. Now the Ur-quan might not have fallen for it, but that is another discussion.
 


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Lukipela on March 21, 2004, 09:43:40 pm
Eh? You're talking bout the end of the war there sonny boy, at which stage the Quan had brought out the Big GunsTM to wipe out the troublesome Chenjesu. The war started long before that, and for quite a while there was a unified alliance front, hence the game SC1 where you can use all alliance ships versus all Hierarchy ships. That's the situation I'm thinking about. Byt the end, when the Chenjesu got cornered with the M:bots, and the Alliance fell apart, all these moral concepts must already have been worked out.

To clarify even more, I'm not talking about the Shofixti system going nova as you seem to think, but about the standard procedure of incorporating a glory device in your combat vessel, something done by the Shofixti all through the war.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: FalconMWC on March 21, 2004, 10:23:13 pm
Oh - Sorry, I have not played nor heard much storyline of SC1.

On option number 3 - That just does not seem possible. Of course there would be exeptions, but compared to the Shofixti, humans and chenjesu as well as others were cowardly.

I would say the 2 option would be the best bet.

You have to wonder though about what the yehat who uplifted the shofixti thought about the glory device....


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Lukipela on March 21, 2004, 10:29:37 pm
The Yehat probably thought it was a great idea. Rememebr, they have a culture based on pretty much the same sort of honour code, valour, bravery, facing death and the likes. While they might not take it to the extrenmes that the Shofixti did, it probably lies very close to the mentality they themselves employ. I wouldn't be at all surprised if yehat ships every now and then crashed into Quans, shields and guns blazing.

As for option 3 being unliikely, who is to say? We know very little abouth the Chenjesu, but possibly a philosophical race like theirs might view death as the next big adventure, the next step on the journey if you will. Also, while annoyingly moral the Chenjesu seem to be very focused on completing their tasks and planning far ahead, no matter the costs. Just look at their entire merging process plan, that kind of stuff takes guts.

Humans on the other hand, might have had more of a selfperservance instinct. However, if you know your cruiser is much too criticalyl damaged to ever make it back, who is to say they didn't just do a little crashing of their own? while not as common as in Shofixti culture, it's not impossible that it was a common procedure among other races as well.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Chrispy on March 21, 2004, 10:34:47 pm
Well, seeing that different humans have different mentalities, whos to say that chenjesu shofiti and yehat dont. We already had this conversation about the spathi and the black spathi squadron. We can only talk to very few of each race. Whos to say that a couple Utwig wern't partying at the loss of the ultron, or that some druuge live outside the crimson corperation.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: FalconMWC on March 21, 2004, 10:38:23 pm
If humans are for self-preservation, then what are the spathi for?  ;D

As far as we know for our culture, did the Shofixti just have glory devices on their ships or on their bodies as well.

*Watchs a Shofixti hunting show

"Right now, we are in the deepest of forests, hunting the dreaded beasts. Our veteran guide has just spotted the prey. Look how he carefully sneaks up on it and.....   (A loud Scream oof Kyieeeee) Yes, it would appear as if we have steaks tonight!"

Now it would not be that bad, but it is something to think about.









Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Lukipela on March 21, 2004, 10:42:48 pm
Yes, but while different humans are very different, we do have certain general things in common that allow for very few exceptions. Especially if we are considering a more homogenous culture (as I assume the Shofixti are), you'd still have misfits, but almost everyone would bow to the cultural norm.

Think of any specific human culture, and you'll see that while there are certain outsiders, most people will follow the norm even though they may not completely agree with it (Simple example, China. Extreme example, Nazi-Germany). The same ought to be true for any culture. And the further back you go in history (and remember, the Shofixti were uplifted, they have the technology but not neccessarily the cultural background) the more mainstream cultures become, as folks going against the stream would be cast out, stoned or burned.

And simple evidence that this carries in the SC universe. Every Scout caries a glory device. therefore you can logically conclude that every captain and crew are prepared to use one. Therefore, blazes of glory is somethign accepted in general culture, therefore the same culture applies to a broad spectrum of the Shofixti culture.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Chrispy on March 21, 2004, 10:46:46 pm
Earth contains many countries and they all act in different ways. Who's to say that other alien worlds don't have devisions within.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Lukipela on March 21, 2004, 10:50:37 pm
None is to say, but as I stated above, at least for the Shofixti I think their culture may have been more homogenous, as they were uplifted at an earlier stage. And even if they weren't, I'm guessing the Shofixti that impressed the Yehat and were given technology probably took control over all other Shofixti tribes fairly quick. No matter how tough you are, blaster rifles beat sticks any day. Also, once more, they DO have glory devices on every ship. Of course, it is possible that they have some select group that believes in detonating and that only people from that group are recruited into the military, but that still make sthat group very influential in Shofixti culture.

As for the Chenjesu, I dunno. I always figured that any very philosophically advanced race such as they would already have smoothed out the differences between whatever cultures they had to begin with. while they may still debate wether truth is beauty or beauty is truth, they probably pretty much agree on how their civilisation ought to be run, and according to what values.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: FalconMWC on March 21, 2004, 10:53:44 pm
I thought that the shofixti voted on using the bomb in their own system. If that is true, than more than half must be ready to use a glory device. (And I don't think more than half of the population is in their military)


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Lukipela on March 21, 2004, 10:58:48 pm
Reference to voting please? I always considered the Shofixti quite feudal, meaning they wouldn't be democratic. any evidence for or against that?


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Chrispy on March 21, 2004, 11:05:04 pm
I believe they were feudel before being introduced to technology, so your assumtion seems quite good. Do you think they had one ruler for the entire race, or were they divided.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: FalconMWC on March 21, 2004, 11:07:49 pm
I am pretty sure - I will have to find it later, it is the yehat says about how the Shofixti cam to the decision.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Lukipela on March 21, 2004, 11:12:40 pm
What I think, and this is purely speculation of course, is that they had some sort of feudal system, an empire of sorts with one strong leader, surrounded by lots of cermony. Possibly the political nd spiritual leader was the same, like in Japan.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Death 999 on March 22, 2004, 09:22:50 pm
Don't think that those nuclear gunboats wouldn't have what it takes to hit the big red button.

Consider the actions off Samar during the Battle of Leyte Gulf.
3 American destroyers charged 4 battleships, 8 cruisers, and around a dozen destroyers. I posit that this basically amounted to a suicide attack (one of the destroyers did make it out, with heavy damage).

And of course later in the day, the first Kamikazes were sent.

All participants were human.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Censored on March 22, 2004, 09:34:02 pm
Quote
What I think, and this is purely speculation of course, is that they had some sort of feudal system, an empire of sorts with one strong leader, surrounded by lots of cermony. Possibly the political nd spiritual leader was the same, like in Japan.


Considering Japan and the and my extended knowledge of their culture (Hollywood style, at least  ;)) I'd say the Shofixiti have many similarities. Also, since the Shofixti were the Yehat's 'children', they probably were influenced by their culture, including the monarchist features.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Terminator on March 23, 2004, 08:26:29 am
OK the Shofixi were obviously Japanese then why were the Yehat Scottish?  Seems a little odd since the Yehat uplifted the Shofixi and the Scotts are known for being blood-thristy.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Censored on March 23, 2004, 10:57:59 pm
Hey, Star Control II wasn't made after the human culture and history, just a few ideas taken from here and there.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Lukipela on April 26, 2004, 02:25:47 pm
Bringing up an old thread cuz I'm bored, Scotts are not noyl known for being bloodthristy. The Scots of old had a very interesting Clan system based upon honour, which the Yehat have been modeled after amiably.

Whereas I think the Shofixti could aptly be looked at as a version of the Tsurani in Riftwar (by whatshisname), albeit without The Great Game. Or possibly with it, who knows.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Vassago_Umara on April 27, 2004, 12:38:14 am
The Riftwar saga is by Raymond E. Feist and is a great read. 8)


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: raakone on May 13, 2004, 10:24:32 pm
Since some parralels between the Mideast and Starcon have been drawn, I will draw a different angle...........

Mycon.

Unfortunatly, the way many of these Arabs...and for that matter the more fundamentalist Jews....are brought up....they are taught that...
a)things must always be done the way of their parents' parents' parents' parents' .......
b)The enemy is in the way, negotiating is wrong
c)That far beyond culture, what must be maintained are the "family honor" (TM) and "purity" (TM) and "Glory" (TM)....so they'll tell their children that their people are always right, even if they bend the rules that their culture supposedly teaches, they'll tell their children to only marry others of their own type, and that the highest honor is to die in battle...to stop fighting would be an insult to...well...the wishes of their parents' parents' parents' parents'......
Basically, they have a "Juffo-Wup" they want maintained at all costs. And what do the fanatics do to poor illiterate villagers? They brainwash them, or basically, "infuse" the "Juffo-Wup" into them. Of course, the signal-to-noise ratio has gotten extremly low. To a point where they don't care about what they do, nor do they know why things are that way.....but the fundamentalists want to preserve the Juffo-Wup....which they do by warping the scriptures (Koran in case of Islamic fundamentalists, Talmud in case of the extremist Jews)

So even if some resort to the level of Shofixti, in essense they are thinking like Mycon. Think about it.

~Ra'akone


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Death 999 on May 14, 2004, 12:11:39 am
If only both sides were as militarily ineffective as the Mycon.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on May 15, 2004, 10:47:30 am
Watch it only if you must.

http://www.ethernet.org/~chris/video/iraq2vediom2.wmv ( go to 4 minute if you want to skip).

Yea I know it isn't something about the Israelis but my point is that look what their religion do to people. Only people without heart can do it. And trust me they are not much diffrent than the them. Try talking with those guys.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: raakone on May 15, 2004, 09:07:24 pm
A terrorist in SC terms.......
They have the thinking and reasoning of Mycon,
The suicidal tendencies of Shofixti,
They wear masks like Utwig,
Bluster and threaten like Thraddash,
And engage in sadistic activities similar to Ilwrath,
While claiming to have the nobility of the Owa!


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Censored on May 15, 2004, 09:28:17 pm
the Owa?

some of The Third's manifestations?


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: raakone on May 15, 2004, 10:41:24 pm
Be glad it's the only SC3 reference I could think of. I have nothing against the SC3 races........only the stupid ending.
Any other SC2 related races that can be compared to those terrorists?

~Ra'akone


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Censored on May 15, 2004, 11:03:35 pm
I would say the notorious Talking Pets, alas, fortunately the terrorists aren't as slyly clever and masterminds of evil..

not yet at least - currently they're just zealots.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Death 999 on May 16, 2004, 10:44:06 pm
Quote
Yea I know it isn't something about the Israelis but my point is that look what their religion do to people. Only people without heart can do it. And trust me they are not much diffrent than the them. Try talking with those guys.


Ah, so I suppose it's Christianity which caused the torture in Abu Ghraib, and Judaism which causes the rocket attacks on residential areas.

It's not God that does these things, and it's not even reliance on god. It's us, people, and we all have our own bizarre distinct reasons for the terrible things we do.

Don't oversimplify, lest you yourself be oversimplified.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Terminator on May 17, 2004, 04:28:25 am
I believe this quote says more than there is needed to be said
From J.D. Salinger's "To Kill A Mockingbird"  "The bible in one mans(referring to Mr.Ridley) hand is more dangerous than a bottle or whiskey in, well your fathers." It is believed by a majority of religious person's that holy books were written to be interperted, as they are the words of God as interpretted by man, and it is difficult to determine which are meant to be figures of speech and which are to be taken literally.


Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: meep-eep on May 17, 2004, 06:41:56 am
Quote
I believe this quote says more than there is needed to be said
From J.D. Salinger's "To Kill A Mockingbird"  "The bible in one mans(referring to Mr.Ridley) hand is more dangerous than a bottle or whiskey in, well your fathers."

I've tried to stay out of this whole discussion, and I won't enter it here now, but you need to be corrected. "To Kill a Mockingbird" was written by Harper Lee. You probably know J.D. Salinger from "The Catcher in the Rye". And though your paraphrasis isn't that far off, is it too much trouble to type a few words into Google in an attempt to get the exact words right?
This may also be a reminder to the reader that you should never blindly trust what people say, even if they mean well and appear to believe what they say.



Title: Re: The Israeli situation
Post by: Captain_Falkenhayn on May 18, 2004, 07:39:30 am
I think the word "terrorist" is far too nebulous for us to make generalizations about it.

All of the following have been characterized as terrorists:

Al-Qaeda hijackers who perpetrated 9/11 have been the definition of terrorists to most people, excepting a broad opinion segment of the arab world.

Chechyan separatists became terrorists according the russian government.

Falun Gong "Cultists" became Terrorists according to the Chinese Government, post-9/11.

Drug traffickers -and in some cases users- became Terrorists (aka Narco-Terrorists) according to the upper echelons of the US Justice Dept. Post-9/11.


Just a few examples. Terrorists are the new Communists are the new Nazis. Generalizing that they are all fanatics is incorrect, as is even using terror as a tool, according to certain parties.