The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release => General UQM Discussion => Topic started by: Slylendro on February 02, 2004, 05:08:15 pm



Title: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Slylendro on February 02, 2004, 05:08:15 pm
---- REPORT FROM SURFACE ----
CAPTAIN, THIS IS ENSIGN HAWTHORNE STANDING IN FOR BUKOWSKI. SIR, BUKOWSKI HAS FOUND SOMETHING, BUT... WELL... IN THE PROCESS HE HAS GONE KIND OF NUTS. WHEN WE FIRST GOT TO THIS DEMOLISHED CITY, BUKOWSKI WENT WILD BECAUSE THE SCIENCE CENTER WAS PRETTY MUCH INTACT. HE LOCKED HIMSELF IN THEIR COMPUTER CONTROL CABIN AND SPENT ABOUT TEN HOURS ALONE IN THERE. WE COULD HEAR HIM MUMBLING TO HIMSELF, THEN HIS SPEECH GOT LOUDER UNTIL HE WAS ALMOST SHOUTING, AND SIR, HE WAS SCARED, DAMN SCARED. WE FINALLY DECIDED THAT WE'D BETTER CHECK UP ON HIM, BUT BUKOWSKI, WOULDN'T LET US INTO THE ROOM. HE SAID THAT NO ONE COULD EVER KNOW WHAT HE HAD LEARNED -- THAT JUST KNOWING WAS ENOUGH TO ALERT `THEM'. HE KEPT TALKING ABOUT `THEM' -- CRAZY STUFF, SIR, ABOUT HOW `THEY' COULD SEE HIM NOW, AND `THEY' WERE MOVING TOWARD HIM. THEN BUKOWSKI STARTED THRASHING AROUND THE ROOM, SCREAMING THAT HE HAD TO DESTROY EVERYTHING BEFORE `THEY' SAW US TOO. HE DID A LOT OF DAMAGE TO THE ANDROSYNTH'S COMPUTER BEFORE WE STOPPED HIM, AND I GUESS HE MUST HAVE HURT HIMSELF IN THE PROCESS. HE'S CUT UP PRETTY BADLY. YOU KNOW, IT'S STRANGE, HE MUST HAVE HURT HIMSELF WORSE THAN I THOUGHT. NOW, WHEN I LOOK AT HIM, IT SEEMS LIKE HE HAS EVEN MORE CUTS THAN JUST A FEW MINUTES AGO, AND BOY, IS HE SCREAMING!


Arilou:

Our motives are multiple, our desires complex.
Part of what we do on Earth is for your own protection.
There are parasites. Creatures who dwell Beyond.
They have names, but you do not know them. They would like to find you
but they are blind to your presence... unless you show yourselves.
The Androsynth showed themselves, and something noticed them.
There are no more Androsynth now. Only Orz.

No. In a way, ignorance is your armor, your best protection.
They cannot see you now. They cannot smell you.
Much of our work with your people involved making you invisible... changing your smell.
If I tell you more, you will look where you could never look before
and while you are looking you can and will be seen.
You do not want to be seen.

now that's interesting, who exactly 'they' are? of course fred and paul may not have written it, just to leave it the
way it is, is the most suspicious and interesting way...
I'm yet to see a discussion about that on the forum, so I figured that's the first(?).

and offtopic, when I had questions about sc2 storyline which were answered in sc3, is it just me or the feeling of it is like the answers in sc3 are unoffical?
just a feeling. I hope fred and paul could cover somethings about the sc3 storyline, what they did in sc3 would've meant in sc2, and what they didn't mean. (for example the rainbow worlds have a purpose which involves sc3 intro, and I dont think fred and paul would even think about the starting story line of sc3 because it's simply BAD. therefore the rainbow world purpose was just something legend studios created, without knowing the original purpose by f&p)

discuss.

-Slylendro




Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: FalconMWC on February 02, 2004, 07:46:22 pm
hhmmm..... Well my PERSONAL opinion (and believe me Slyrandro, almost everyone has different views when it comes to the "they", Orz, and Arlou!) is that "they" come from another demension in space. I also think that they are bent on destruction of other creatures. Now - I think that "they" cannot make *sliders* to other demensions. They have to rely on others. Now I think the Orz or bad - but I do not know if they are associated with "they". Or - maybe the eternal 1s are they?

Anyone else?
 


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Death 999 on February 02, 2004, 08:09:18 pm
SC3 was based on the SC2 world, but the answers they provided are in no way canonical, largely due to their being nonsensical and/or banal.

And I think it's pretty obvious that the Orz are from a different dimension. Does ANYONE have conflicting view?
And the Eternal1s can stay outside with the Vyro-Ingo.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: FalconMWC on February 02, 2004, 08:23:54 pm
Quote

Does ANYONE have conflicting view?


Sorry if  did not make myself clear. What I meant was there are many different opinions regarding whether "they" are the Orz, whether the orz ate the androsyn, whether arlou is telling the truth, etc.

EDIT: This is the topic regarding what I was trying to mean. (Note that it is almost 16 pages long)

http://uqm.stack.nl/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Gendiscuss;action=display;num=1039336915


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: lightman on February 03, 2004, 05:57:00 am
Here are my thoughts on it... First, I will list the quotes I am referring to:

Paul Reiche III:
Quote
<Fwiffo> In regards to the Androsynth: They were snagged by the entity who/which projected its  fingers into our dimension (which looked to us as the Orz.)
<Fwiffo> We never had to settle on an idea [for a sequel], because we never got that close.  But we were thinking about those missing Androsynth.

Orz
Quote
You are so *sticky*.
You cannot *slide* like Orz from *outside* to *inside* and *in between*.
It is sad, but Orz can *pull* the *campers* after being *connected*.

Orz are trying to *pull* the Androsynth, but they are so *silly*, they do not want.
Arilou can *slide*. Also Taalo. Many can *slide*, but Orz are better of course.

Ahaa! I am told other Orz *cousins* you are *connected* for *camping*.
...
I am so right. I will tell them again.

Here is *bright* and *smooth*... Other place is **Frumple**.
...
Now *smooth* place all the time, and after now never going back to outside. Never!!

On the Androsynth planet:
Quote
...NO SIGNS OF ORBITAL BOMBARDMENT OR INVASION FROM SPACE...

PROBABLY THE WEIRDEST THING WE'VE SEEN, OR NOT SEEN, ARE CORPSES. THERE AREN'T ANY! IT'S AS THOUGH  SOMETHING APPEARED OUT OF NOWHERE, BLASTED EVERYTHING WITH NUCLEAR BAZOOKAS, THEN GRABBED ALL THE  ANDROSYNTH AND DISAPPEARED
...
AS FAR AS THEIR SCIENTISTS HERE COULD  TELL, THE DEVICES GENERATED DF WAVES WHICH WOULD ALLOW THE USER TO SEE INTO OTHER. WELL, OTHER  DIMENSIONS -- REALMS OF EXISTENCE WHICH SHARE POSITION WITH OUR OWN UNIVERSE, BUT HAVE A DIFFERENT,  UM, WHAT SHOULD I CALL IT, REALITY PHASE.

THEY MADE CONTACT WITH SOMEKIND OF LIFEFORM ON `THE OTHER SIDE', A CREATURE FROM AN ALIEN DIMENSION.

I SEE REQUESTS TO THE CENTRAL COMPUTER FOR INFORMATION -- DATA ON `REALITY ABERRATIONS', THE `MOSQUITO MANGE' AND, ER, GHOSTS, POLTERGEISTS, AND OTHER  MALEVOLENT SUPERNATURAL CREATURES.


Conclusion:

1. The Orz are responsible for the fate of the Androsynth.

2. The Androsynth researched IDF - made contact with Orz.
2a. They began to see things interdimensionally. ("reality aberrations", "ghosts")
2b. They began to develop skin problems ("mosquito mange")

According to the text it appears everything was blasted and THEN the Androsynth were grabbed. This could mean the Androsynth tried to fight the "ghosts" and were then "grabbed" ("pulled").

People cannot "slide" - they are "sticky". So what would happen to someone who started to "phase" (be "pulled") into another dimension? Maybe it would look likes cuts, lesions, etc. Unfortunately, the game doesn't detail what happens to Bukowski, but it implies that cuts continue to develop on him.

So it seems Orz "pulled" the Androsynth "outside" and then came "inside". There are no bodies and no evidence that the Androsynth died (they were "snagged" and "missing"). The "cousins" could be other Orz-like entities... others in that dimension. That would be "them".


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Culture20 on February 03, 2004, 06:55:02 am
Quote
2b. They began to develop skin problems ("mosquito mange")

I like everything else in your post, but "mosquito mange" is not similar to ordinary mange in any way.  It's a reference to electomagnetic/gravimetric  forces that seem to defy physical law.  Seemingly supernatural.  Why it's called mosquito mange?  I have no clue.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: JonoPorter on February 03, 2004, 08:54:27 am
IT seems to me that there are 3 parties involved. Androsynth, orz, and “they.”

The androsynth started experiments on IDF and when they became aware of this other dimension ‘they’ and the orz also became aware of the androsynth. The orz knew of our dimension but did not know how to get here. ‘they’ on the other hand are like mindless animals that when they eat something they mutate (think resident evil the movie). ‘they’ started to feed on the androsynth. And when the orz found out about this, they decided to try and help the androsynth and stop the creatures from invading our dimension. They tried to pull the androsynth back into their dimension to remove the creatures, but the shock was too great and all the androsynth died. The orz continued to do scientific work on the dead bodies and found a way to grow a living creature that could survive the shock, and would be controllable while they stay in their dimension. So what you see are not orz but exploration vessels like robots. Also they are VERY embarrassed about not being able to save the androsynth and get angry when ever some one mentions the name.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Slylendro on February 03, 2004, 09:56:36 am
Perhaps.

I dont think 'they' are the orz, since the arilou mentioned that they are parasites..
Yet we can't know for sure simply cuz there's not enough info :)

Btw for the 1000000th time it's SLYLENDRO, I just love when people start fixing the nick I wrote.
1.I use this nick for about 6 years now. and, how old was I? 11?
My english was even worse then it is now.
2.I realized that it's spelled with A very soon after, but Slylendro with 'e' looks better, and better recognition.
3.I didn't make the signature for nothing you know.

If I see someone on a forum spelling his nick vaurlon I wont reffer to him as vorlon simply because he chose that nick.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: lightman on February 03, 2004, 06:10:06 pm
Quote
I like everything else in your post, but "mosquito mange" is not similar to ordinary mange in any way.  It's a reference to electomagnetic/gravimetric  forces that seem to defy physical law.  Seemingly supernatural.  Why it's called mosquito mange?  I have no clue.

That's interesting. I've never heard of it. Where have you read about it?

Quote
IT seems to me that there are 3 parties involved. Androsynth, orz, and “they.”

That is exactly what I am saying. But I think you misinterpret.

First, when Orz projects its fingers into our dimension we see these as "Orz bubbles". However, this is an illusion:

Quote
That is *funny*. You think you *see* Orz but Orz are not *light reflections*.
Maybe you think Orz are *many bubbles* too. It is such a joke.
Orz are not *many bubbles* like *campers*...
I am Orz. I am one with many *fingers*.
My *fingers* reach through into *heavy space* and you *see* *Orz bubbles* but it is really *fingers*.

There is no growing of living creatures and no experiments with dead bodies.

Notice this: Orz says that it is "people energy". Orz also always needs ships and mech suits to interact in "heavy space". And the problem with Bukowski occurs in the computer room.

Second, there is NO evidence that Orz tried to help the Androsynth and what evidence there is suggests somewhat the opposite. Orz tried to "pull" them and they did not want to go. Again, think about what Paul R. said.

Furthermore, Orz has no problem with attacking the Vux or the humans if provoked, just by being questioned. Orz doesn't seem to care if parts of it "dissolve". It might not necessarily be evil, but it might not understand what it can do to things in heavy space.

Quote
I dont think 'they' are the orz, since the arilou mentioned that they are parasites..

What I am saying is that Orz is from the same place as "them". Orz might even be one of "them". Who knows what it really looks like in its own dimension? The Arilou said there were parasites, but how they are parasitic we do not know. It doesn't have to mean small parasitic animals like fleas.

Hey, Slylendro, not everyone ignores the "e". ;)


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: FalconMWC on February 03, 2004, 06:17:00 pm
Hhhmmmm...

Well the only comment I have is the fact about the officer that went nuts after he went into the CPU room. Here is the quote:

"Orz also always needs ships and mech suits to interact in "heavy space". And the problem with Bukowski occurs in the computer room."

Well - To me - were else could it happen? I mean that once you *show* yourself *they* can get you. Now just because Bukowski went nuts in the CPU room - even when he was taken out he contiunued to get cuts! - That means to me that it was not the energy in the CPU room -   but the information inside them!


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: lightman on February 03, 2004, 07:12:47 pm
Yes, more cuts appear, but I don't suggest that it is energy in the computer room that DOES anything to him.

Quote
THEY' COULD SEE HIM NOW, AND `THEY' WERE MOVING TOWARD HIM

What I suggest is that the cuts are the result of them "pulling" him (they moved toward him). Since we are dealing interdimensionally, they could continue to pull him even outside of the computer room. Again, there were no Androsynth bodies (they did not flee and die from wounds), but the evidence points to that they experienced the same thing. Bukowski did something with the computer so that they could reach him and they kept pulling him.

Technology, then, would be the key for their interaction with this dimension. Otherwise, they are on a different "phase" and appear to us as ghosts.
Quote
REALMS OF EXISTENCE WHICH SHARE POSITION WITH OUR OWN UNIVERSE, BUT HAVE A DIFFERENT, UM, WHAT SHOULD I CALL IT, REALITY PHASE



Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Death 999 on February 03, 2004, 07:19:30 pm
Good point. However, Bukowski does not die, at least not as a result of these injuries. That is to say, the active duty roster does not decrease. So I guess he gets better???


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: FalconMWC on February 03, 2004, 07:20:20 pm
I don't think that he did anything to the CPU's. I just think he learned to much. Remember arlou talks about if we know to much we can get killed.

"
What did you modify on Earth, AND WHY?!
Our motives are multiple, our desires complex.
Part of what we do on Earth is for your own protection.
There are parasites. Creatures who dwell Beyond.
They have names, but you do not know them. They would like to find you
but they are blind to your presence... unless you show yourselves.
The Androsynth showed themselves, and something noticed them.
There are no more Androsynth now. Only Orz.

This sounds creepy. Please go on.
No. In a way, ignorance is your armor, your best protection.
They cannot see you now. They cannot smell you.
Much of our work with your people involved making you invisible... changing your smell.
If I tell you more, you will look where you could never look before
and while you are looking you can and will be seen.
You do not want to be seen."

So He learned about *they* - The CPU room was just were it happened. I think the same thing would have ahppened if he would have come across a book in the libary with the same info.  


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: lightman on February 03, 2004, 07:21:29 pm
Death_999: That's the problem. We don't really know WHAT happens to him. Does he get better? The crew roster doesn't go down, but there are probably many small, technical details in the game, that don't fit perfectly.

FalconMWC:

I disagree. From the Melnorme:

Quote
Following the end of the War, the Androsynth began experimenting with Inter-Dimensional Fatigue, a process which is related to your faster-than-light drive but involves dimensions far more alien than HyperSpace. They had just made a major breakthrough when they were suddenly wiped out ...


Hyperspace, quasispace, and other forms of IDF in the game all require technology to manipulate them. And in the quote you used, the Arilou say that if people know more, they will look. It requires an action.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: FalconMWC on February 03, 2004, 07:26:15 pm
Well other than the fact that you don't lose a crewman. There is no evidence suporting either way.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Culture20 on February 03, 2004, 07:52:57 pm
Quote
What I suggest is that the cuts are the result of them "pulling" him (they moved toward him).


So they were *pulling* him slice by slice?  Ouchie; like a _really_ slow transporter from Star Trek.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: lightman on February 03, 2004, 08:04:55 pm
Quote
So they were *pulling* him slice by slice?  Ouchie; like a _really_ slow transporter from Star Trek.

Heh. Not a fun thought.

The thing is, Orz can be in many places at once because it has many "fingers". So what is to say that "they" would pull a person hand-first or head-first? It could as easily be random parts.

They are also just cuts, not something that looks diseased. And the crew doesn't seem to worry at all that they will be infected by any parasite or disease. No one on the ship dies as a result. If it were some kind of flesh-eating parasite, surely others would become infected?


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: FalconMWC on February 03, 2004, 08:08:18 pm
Maybe only if they *showed* themselves? Anyway - If it their bodies were taken piece by piece then anything brought into another demension would be dead, correct?


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: lightman on February 03, 2004, 08:15:16 pm
Quote
Maybe only if they *showed* themselves? Anyway - If it their bodies were taken piece by piece then anything brought into another demension would be dead, correct?


But if the parasites were physically there, it seems they would have seen them in his body. And no, Orz can be in two dimensions at once - parts in one, parts in the other. A human/androsynth could probably too. In this case it would be a horrific experience. He would be changing "phases", bit by bit.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Culture20 on February 03, 2004, 10:50:56 pm
Orz might be able to put people back together alive.  Since the overall effect is just *sliding* from one *level* to another, Orz might not understand why we would have an aversion to this (especially if the fish creatures are the corporeal *fingers* of Orz; it travels *layers* piece by piece naturally).


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: NECRO-99 on February 04, 2004, 01:43:08 am
Or perhaps the Orz have a way of *sliding* that is natural to their, ehm, unique phisiology, but wreaks havoc on other races.

Mosquito Mange is described in a book called Roadside Picnic, written by Arkady and Boris Strugatsky. Here's the excerpt.
Quote
Right in front, two hundred yards away, Redrick saw the helicopter. It had fallen, apparently, into the middle of a mosquito mange spot, and its fuselage had been squashed into a metal pancake. Its tail had remained intact, only slightly bent, and it stuck out over the glade like a black hook. The stabilizer was also whole, and it squeaked distinctly, turning in the light breeze. The mange must have
been very powerful, for there hadn't even been a real fire, and the Royal Air Force insignia was very clear on the flattened metal.


Think of it as a really, really, really strong temporary gravity well. It apparently pulled a helicopter to the ground and crushed so quickly that a fire didn't even have a chance to start.
That's what I call pressure.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Slylendro on February 07, 2004, 11:04:36 am
Spoiler for Sc3-

What the Precursor said about the Orz(not much btw but still)

-What are the Orz up to?-

I do not know. They are new to this quadrant. Our remote sensing apparatus reveals that they are inter-dimensional projection of a greater creature. But I cannot see what this creature is.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: FalconMWC on February 07, 2004, 06:41:27 pm
But the question is, are we considering SC3 apart of this thread?


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: lightman on February 07, 2004, 06:41:41 pm
NECRO-99:

Interesting and odd. I wonder if they included that for fun, or if it actually had any connection with what was going on in the game. I don't see how it fits into the events.

Sylendro:

Yes... but that is just from SC3, so it isn't much use. ;) In any case, the quote you have there doesn't say anything new.

I remember when SC3 came out. I didn't know it wasn't by TFB, and I bought a copy as soon as I could get my hands on it. Unfortunately, I wasn't impressed with it.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: NECRO-99 on February 10, 2004, 01:00:58 am
Lightman, perhaps the Mosquito Mange occured where the Orz were ripping holes in the dimentions? I'd wager that the gravity there would get so strong it would punch through "reality" into another. Some poor 'synth was standing in a spot where it happened, got turned into a flapjack, and then sucked through the rift that was created shortly thereafter (keeping canon with the 'no corpses' buisness).


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: HentaiZonga on February 10, 2004, 03:01:51 am
Quote

I like everything else in your post, but "mosquito mange" is not similar to ordinary mange in any way.  It's a reference to electomagnetic/gravimetric  forces that seem to defy physical law.  Seemingly supernatural.  Why it's called mosquito mange?  I have no clue.


It's from a Russian novelette called 'Roadside Picnic', where a weird anomaly creates all sorts of bizzare physical phenomena around a small mining town and the surrounding meadow/swamp. In the summer, you'd get all sorts of flies, mosquitos and gnats buzzing around... but wherever the gravitocentromes were, there'd be a giant 'bald spot' where the bugs were getting squished into the ground at 60,000G's


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: lightman on February 10, 2004, 03:53:28 pm
Quote
Lightman, perhaps the Mosquito Mange occured where the Orz were ripping holes in the dimentions? I'd wager that the gravity there would get so strong it would punch through "reality" into another. Some poor 'synth was standing in a spot where it happened, got turned into a flapjack, and then sucked through the rift that was created shortly thereafter (keeping canon with the 'no corpses' buisness).

Yeah. I had thought that perhaps the "pulling" from the Orz created some phenomenon like that. It could also be as you mentioned, that every time it "pushed" through, something like that happened. It doesn't have to be exactly the same as mosquito mange, but perhaps something similar. It would be the closest the Androsynth could come to explaining it (like the ghosts).

I was also wondering if that could explain the cuts, but I don't really see a connection... unless intense gravity could cause physical damage (cuts) that wouldn't show up immediately. But it seems to me that, in the game, the cause of the cuts is ongoing.

HentaiZonga:
Thanks for the info. NECRO-99 did explain that in his post from Feb. 03.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: NECRO-99 on February 11, 2004, 03:36:36 am
Zonga, you gotta read previous posts, man. :P


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Death 999 on February 11, 2004, 07:49:57 pm
Well, I think Zonga's post was fine in that it clarified the actual source of the name, which was a welcome addition. I mean, the earlier mention described its effect on a helicopter or plane or something, but this did not clear up where the name came from, or some of its other properties.

It's one thing to protest against spam; it's another thing to protest against people saying interesting things that are only partially redundant.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: lightman on February 11, 2004, 09:24:56 pm
I agree. In Necro's defense, though, I don't think he meant it to be so critical - that is, a protest. Necro probably just meant that Zonga didn't need to be redundant at all, if he had read the earlier post.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: NECRO-99 on February 11, 2004, 10:34:06 pm
To cause another piece of innudating spam to be spat forth upon this forum (and to give me another post)...

Yes, Lightman, that is what I meant.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Crowley on February 14, 2004, 04:29:56 am
I recently learned that the movie Stalker is based on Roadside Picnic.


Title: There is no escape if "they" are you
Post by: akeldamma646131 on February 14, 2004, 05:14:42 am
Quote

They are also just cuts, not something that looks diseased. And the crew doesn't seem to worry at all that they will be infected by any parasite or disease. No one on the ship dies as a result. If it were some kind of flesh-eating parasite, surely others would become infected?


These cuts could be self inflicted, and "they" could just be some kind of mental disease, where someone that learns the "truth" and wasn't prepared for it goes crazy, or normal in that person's mind.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: CrowZone on February 14, 2004, 11:20:06 am
Although Orz come off sounding sinister, I think they're simply miss-understood!

First of, I'm fairy sure the *they* are the *Nggn* , the things that dart and leap that the Orz are after.

The Orz seem childlike in a way,  Whereas the Arilou are like Parental like - The animosity between the two might simply be because of their natures -- The Arilou don't really appreciate the Orz for their efforts because Orz are reckless and don't realize that their actions have consequences.



Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Chrispy on February 14, 2004, 06:01:15 pm
But since they both are very different, and mysterious, I think they are both creepy.
The orz are probably more creepy becaus of the childessness. According to many orz translation guides, the *games*, and *parties* mean combat.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: FalconMWC on February 14, 2004, 07:47:11 pm
I don't think the arlou are ou to hurt us. I think they want soemthing from us, but I think that wonce they get it they will leave and not look back. But I think that is all - they won't kill us. Now the Orz on the other hand...... :-/

EDIT: (None of this is SC3)


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: CrowZone on February 14, 2004, 07:51:26 pm
Alright I wanted to reiterate my Orz/Arilou belief's so that people could see where I'm comming from.

First, throw out SC3 -- Its not hard to do heh  Nothing learned from SC3 is valid.

What does Orz tell us about itself? Orz, come from *below* which seems to be a dimension relatively below Realspace. Orz is not *light reflections* meaning that unlike in our universe, we percieve objects through sight by the light that reflects off them -- with Orz this is not so.  Also, Orz is not *many bubbles* or a multicellular organizm even though to us we would THINK Orz is made up of *Tiny bubbles*.  However Orz is probably a projection *finger* into our universe by some form of entity which resides in a dimension relatively beneath our native one.  Remember, we do not *see* Orz bubbles, but we obviously percieve them.

Orz came to our universe because they learned about it because of Androsynth experiments with IDF.  Seemingly, Androsynth learned how to open portals between dimensions, whether or not this facilitated travel for the Androsynth is trivial.  It merely allowed other Denizens of other Dimensions to somehow observe Androsynth.  

Orz was one of the beings that learned of Realspace because of the IDF experiments,  Before this, Orz did not even know Realspace existed!  Concieveably there are probably infinite number of dimensions, with inhabited ones few and far between.  At the same time, however, *they* also learned of the Androsynth.  

Now Orz watched the Androsynth and wants to help Androsynth.  So, Orz does what it feels is best!  It starts pulling Androsynth into Orz's dimension, or another dimension, safe from the *they*.  Orz, not really having comprehension of Death (hence, combat is always *dancing* or something fun) pull every bit of Androsynth they can find, living, dead, decaying -- everything)  After all, Orz wants to help every other *slider* it can find, it probably did so with the Taalo (more on that later).

So Orz pulls the Androsynth out of Realspace -- The Androsynth probably had no idea what was going on and reacted negatively -- And now Orz is hiding the Androsynth.  To further protect them, Orz does not want to talk about the Androsynth incase *they* finds them again.

Now,  The Arilou are also interdimensional travelers and they frown upon the Orz.  I think because they see Orz as reckless and acts without considering things.  Orz refer's to Arilou as *Quick Babies*, probably simply a reference to the Arilou popping in and out of dimensions, and Also because I think on a time scale, Arilou are more like Us and less like Orz (which may or may not be eternal) therefore even though Arilou are wise and their species ancient, it might be nothing compared to Orz.

The Arilou tell us that they have been hiding our smell from beings which would hurt us.  I think we can take this at face value, they're making it hard for other inter dimensional beings (or maybe only one particular inter dimensional being) to find us.

When asked, why the Arilou are in realspace again (outside of looking after us) they mention they are here catching *Nggn*.  When pressed about the *Nggn* the Arilou brush humans off and don't really want to explain it.  However, I get the impression that the *Nggn* and Orz's the They or Them are one and the same.  The Arilou are only found in Realspace, near their natural break into Quasispace from Hyperspace, that explains their small sphere of influence, but Technically, Quasi space travel means Arilou can quickly show up ANYWHERE they need to in the galaxy (and probably the entirety of realspace) fairly quickly, so geographically their location is trivial.  The way Arilou describe the *Nggn* is meant to make the captian not really think they're important.  Arilou don't want us to even contemplate looking for the *Nggn* because if we do, then the *Nggn* will find us!  Bad news.

Now, there's some animosity between Orz and the Arilou because they're both trying to do the same thing (protect things from some more evil form of ID being) and have different modalities for doing so. Arilou like to protect and hide beings in their own dimension (and maybe they're exclusive to humans) whereas Orz simply just rip an endangered race or society from where they are and hide them somewhere else.  

As for the Taalo, I dont think the Taalo were pulled into another dimension by Orz in the way the Androsynth are.  I believe the Taalo were more or less ready for IDF travel by the time Orz learned of them.  The Taalo probably left willingly our dimension for other dimensions (to protect themselves from being wiped out) In the time that has passed, the Taalo are probably profficient *sliders* through dimension, but are better then Orz at dealing with issues related to time, which Orz doesn't seem to have much of a grasp of.  So when the Taalo play with Orz, they use this to their advantage.

Now, that all being said, here's the reason WHY I believe all this.  Because its NOT the obvious selection.   There are tons of hints WHY Orz might be evil,  however alot of them come from the Arilou and I don't really think they're 100% trustworthy.  Honestly though, believing Orz are bad is just EASY -- and much of the stories in SC2 are complex and detailed.  If TFB ever made a REAL SC3, they would probably want to surprise people over their incorrect pre-concieved notions about some of the various races, and this is a perfect example of a set up to me.  Anyways, thats my opinion,  if you have any questions about some of the terms, and things I've left out, ask and I shall answer them as best I can about my interpretation.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Chrispy on February 14, 2004, 08:44:21 pm
Wow. The nggn make a lot more sence now.

So do the orz. I always assumed they were evil. I would still say they are really really warlike, so they cant be too good.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: CrowZone on February 14, 2004, 09:01:06 pm
They're not warlike, they're just playful.  Thats why the computer translates their term for fighting as *dancing*  not *fighting* because to them, its not Fighting as since they're not dieing as a result of the fight, they don't understand that you might be..


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Gill_Bates on February 14, 2004, 10:04:48 pm
I've seen lots and lots of posts on this specific subject.
However, every now and then someone brings up a bright new idea that nobody could formulate before him.
I think this thesis is better than most of the others I've heard.
(Although Fred's statement that they thought the 3rd game - should they make one - would be about an EVIL Orz, kind of contradicts it. But maybe Fred's statement was misunderstood or out of context.)


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: CrowZone on February 14, 2004, 10:37:28 pm
Heh thanks!  There was a huge thread about Arilou and Orz but I didn't read though it all (its like 20 pages) so I wasn't sure if my theory had been brought up by someone before me.

As for the possiblility of a SC3 focused on the "Evil" Orz, it would still work,  Espeically if they're trying to use missdirection,  Make it so the *Nggn* finally find humans,  The Arilou try to help you, but so do the Orz, only like the Androsynth of my theory, Humans don't realize they're trying to help, and all hell brakes loose.

In the end, the twist is Orz was only trying to help :P


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Chrispy on February 14, 2004, 11:09:35 pm
The orz may not intend to be warlike, they are only intending to be playfull. But the fact (or theory) remains that they enjoy fighting, which is bad.
Then again, they do seem to control that in sc2.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Death 999 on February 16, 2004, 07:09:07 pm
1) When did the Orz find out about the Taalo, if they only found out about real-space when the Androsynth alerted them?

2) The Arilou can't just jump anywhere in the galaxy. If they could, they would have in SC1, wiping out hierarchy starbases and mines instantly. Even setting aside that SC1 is a tactical simulator, not a representation of the war itself, if they could jump about arbitrarily, the hierarchy would have had to have every starbase, mine, and colony defended by enough ships to make it hurt if every Arilou in the galaxy suddenly popped up at once.

This is not how it worked.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: CrowZone on February 16, 2004, 08:55:53 pm
1)  They mention the Taalo in SC2 as playing *time games* with them.  This suggests that since they don't know about our Realspace, they Met the Taalo somewhere in another dimension -- meaning that the Taalo met Orz in another apce.

2) Um,, Quasispace allows the Arilou quick access to many key locations in Hyperspace -- SPOILER :

























Have you no idea about the Portal Spawner and Arilou Quasispace?????


















/Spoiler


Furthermore, the Arilou didn't really care about the outcome of the Hierarchy wars, as long as Humanity didn't end up alerting the *They* and getting themselves destroyed.  Slaveshileded earth is a GOOD thing to the Arilou.



Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: FalconMWC on February 16, 2004, 09:03:13 pm
Yeah - He has heard of it. - But what he is saying is that the Arlou CANNOT pop up anywhere. Think about it! - The arlou in SC1 would be invincible! - They can attack anything at anytime. They could pop up behind deadly lines, assinate leaders etc. and anything they wanted if they could pop up anywhere.  Why they could take a few ships attack a homeworld and zip out without anyone noticing. It is not feasible for the arlou to pop up anywhere.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: CrowZone on February 16, 2004, 09:08:55 pm
Still, the point is valid.   The Arilou didn't WANT to win the first war, they just wanted to make sure Earthlings didn't get slaughtered.  

They probably knew about the Ur-quan slave shielding defeated races and therefore didn't really want to do all that much in the first wars - knowing (in their Arilou wisdom) that Humanity would choose to be slave shield.

The Arilou probably just joined with the Alliance to make sure things worked out the way they did.

Just because they didn't doesn't mean they can't.  

REMEMBER, in SC2 -- The Commander of the starbase mentions that the ARilou just POPPED into space near the starbase with some ships for you



Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: lightman on February 16, 2004, 09:15:39 pm
Quote

However Orz is probably a projection *finger* into our universe by some form of entity which resides in a dimension relatively beneath our native one.  Remember, we do not *see* Orz bubbles, but we obviously percieve them.

I should think it's an established fact that the Orz are a projection of some entity's "fingers", since this is what TFB has said.

Quote

Now Orz watched the Androsynth and wants to help Androsynth.  So, Orz does what it feels is best!  It starts pulling Androsynth into Orz's dimension, or another dimension, safe from the *they*.  Orz, not really having comprehension of Death (hence, combat is always *dancing* or something fun) pull every bit of Androsynth they can find, living, dead, decaying -- everything)  After all, Orz wants to help every other *slider* it can find, it probably did so with the Taalo (more on that later).
So Orz pulls the Androsynth out of Realspace -- The Androsynth probably had no idea what was going on and reacted negatively -- And now Orz is hiding the Androsynth.  To further protect them, Orz does not want to talk about the Androsynth incase *they* finds them again.

Unlikely. "Snagged" hardly gives the impression of someone trying to pull another from danger. Also, if they were trying to help, there would be little reason to get upset at the mention of the Androsynth. Orz did not help the Taalo. They found the Taalo "playground" which allows them to "slide" to "pretty space" where the Taalo hid themselves from the Dnyarri.

I think you misinterpret Orz. Orz seems mainly interested in "parties", not helping other races. Orz doesn't mind blowing up Vux or humans or anyone else that it does not get along with. If it has no concept of death, why would it care about "protecting" some race? Plus when you get into hostile relationships with Orz (and it is obviously hostile) then it attacks you. It knows what it's doing.

Quote

When asked, why the Arilou are in realspace again (outside of looking after us) they mention they are here catching *Nggn*.  When pressed about the *Nggn* the Arilou brush humans off and don't really want to explain it.  However, I get the impression that the *Nggn* and Orz's the They or Them are one and the same.
...
Arilou describe the *Nggn* is meant to make the captian not really think they're important.  Arilou don't want us to even contemplate looking for the *Nggn* because if we do, then the *Nggn* will find us!  Bad news.

You are mixing two different discussions. The Arilou talk about *Nnngn* in a completely different way than they do about the "parasites". They simply say that *Nnngn* are not relevant to humans. Humans can't trap them and the Arilou say "I do not think you can even touch them; you are not quite solid enough." This is not a description or a warning about the harmful things that we do not know the names of.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: CrowZone on February 16, 2004, 09:25:54 pm
Quote

I should think it's an established fact that the Orz are a projection of some entity's "fingers", since this is what TFB has said.

Unlikely. "Snagged" hardly gives the impression of someone trying to pull another from danger. Also, if they were trying to help, there would be little reason to get upset at the mention of the Androsynth. Orz did not help the Taalo. They found the Taalo "playground" which allows them to "slide" to "pretty space" where the Taalo hid themselves from the Dnyarri.

I think you misinterpret Orz. Orz seems mainly interested in "parties", not helping other races. Orz doesn't mind blowing up Vux or humans or anyone else that it does not get along with. If it has no concept of death, why would it care about "protecting" some race? Plus when you get into hostile relationships with Orz (and it is obviously hostile) then it attacks you. It knows what it's doing.

You are mixing two different discussions. The Arilou talk about *Nnngn* in a completely different way than they do about the "parasites". They simply say that *Nnngn* are not relevant to humans. Humans can't trap them and the Arilou say "I do not think you can even touch them; you are not quite solid enough." This is not a description or a warning about the harmful things that we do not know the names of.


1st)  The Orz might be protecting Androsynth from a fate worse then death.  It doesn't need a concept of Death to fear something.  The Arilou are similar, they don't want to protect humanity from death at all, but they do want to protect Humanity from SOME entity specifically.  

2nd) When pressed about the Androsynth, Orz becomes angry.  If they did help "HIDE" the Androsynth from this Entity, they might not want to let anyone find out about where they hid them!  So yes, they do become more aggressive but it might be a protective measure.  Like when someone is caught between a baby bear and its mother.  That mother is gonna smack you down.

3rd) Of course the Arilou aren't going to tell you what the *Nggn* are!  They don't want you to even become interested in trying to find them.  The recurring theme in almost all Arilou talk is that they can't tell you too much because you might start to think and explore concepts which will attract the attention of some entity that they fear.  So, they mention they're here catching *Nggn* which we shouldn't be concerned with.  Why would TFB bring it up at all if not to make is go "Hmmmm"


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: lightman on February 16, 2004, 10:02:48 pm
Quote


1st)  The Orz might be protecting Androsynth from a fate worse then death.  It doesn't need a concept of Death to fear something.  The Arilou are similar, they don't want to protect humanity from death at all, but they do want to protect Humanity from SOME entity specifically.  

2nd) When pressed about the Androsynth, Orz becomes angry.  If they did help "HIDE" the Androsynth from this Entity, they might not want to let anyone find out about where they hid them!  So yes, they do become more aggressive but it might be a protective measure.  Like when someone is caught between a baby bear and its mother.  That mother is gonna smack you down.

3rd) Of course the Arilou aren't going to tell you what the *Nggn* are!  They don't want you to even become interested in trying to find them.  The recurring theme in almost all Arilou talk is that they can't tell you too much because you might start to think and explore concepts which will attract the attention of some entity that they fear.  So, they mention they're here catching *Nggn* which we shouldn't be concerned with.  Why would TFB bring it up at all if not to make is go "Hmmmm"


1st> And Orz might not. What would it fear if it has no concept of death? Why would it "pull" the Androsynth into a dimension it doesn't want to be in? The fact that it attacks anyone that talks about them gives little support to the idea of Orz protecting anyone. What are you basing your comments about the Arilou on? It is clear that they want to protect humans. When do they say they don't want to protect humans from death?

2nd> As before, there is nothing to suggest that Orz is protecting anyone and more evidence that it doesn't care what happens to other races. Orz clearly knows that "dissolving" is not good, but you suggest that it does this instead of just saying it can't talk about the Androsynth because it's trying to protect them? And Orz calls the Androsynth "silly" which is obviously bad. It also says that it is "...happiest days to not care about Androsynth..." It looks more like whatever happened to the Androsynth was bad and Orz wants to forget about it.

3rd> I did not say anything about the Arilou telling humans what *Nnngn* are. I said you were mixing two different ideas/conversations. The Arilou say that *Nnngn* are irrelevant, not dangerous. That would still make people go "hmmm". Just like the Black Spathi Squadron which does not exist in the game, among other mysteries they leave open. And then there is the matter of the ominous inferences in the conversations with Orz...


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: CrowZone on February 16, 2004, 10:24:12 pm
Quote


1st> And Orz might not. What would it fear if it has no concept of death? Why would it "pull" the Androsynth into a dimension it doesn't want to be in? The fact that it attacks anyone that talks about them gives little support to the idea of Orz protecting anyone. What are you basing your comments about the Arilou on? It is clear that they want to protect humans. When do they say they don't want to protect humans from death?

2nd> As before, there is nothing to suggest that Orz is protecting anyone and more evidence that it doesn't care what happens to other races. Orz clearly knows that "dissolving" is not good, but you suggest that it does this instead of just saying it can't talk about the Androsynth because it's trying to protect them? And Orz calls the Androsynth "silly" which is obviously bad. It also says that it is "...happiest days to not care about Androsynth..." It looks more like whatever happened to the Androsynth was bad and Orz wants to forget about it.

3rd> I did not say anything about the Arilou telling humans what *Nnngn* are. I said you were mixing two different ideas/conversations. The Arilou say that *Nnngn* are irrelevant, not dangerous. That would still make people go "hmmm". Just like the Black Spathi Squadron which does not exist in the game, among other mysteries they leave open. And then there is the matter of the ominous inferences in the conversations with Orz...


You gotta remember everything we're doing here is speculating and interpreting.

1) You, me, most mortal beings can't contemplate fear without death, but that doesn't mean immortal things aren't fearful.   Arilou mention on numerous occasions they are changing our *smell* to protect us from some entity.  They don't implicitly imply this entity will kill us,  just that us Meeting this entity would be bad.  

2) Silly doesn't have to have a 'bad' connotation.  It can mean, well SILLY, like they act in a peculiar manner.  That is more telling in my opinoin.  If Orz is trying to help the Androsynth, and the Androsynth misinterpret this, then Orz might think the Androsynth are Silly for making things so difficult!

3) My whole point about the Arilou and the *Nggn* is that the Arilou dismiss them as irrelevant.  If you think something is irrelevant you'd be less inclined to investigate it further.  The Arilou would never tell a human if the *Nggn* were dangerous!  Humans are curious and would therefore investigate further.  So, the Arilou say (And I paraphrase here) "oh, the Nggn?  Don't worry about them, they're not important -- besides you couldn't even see them or touch them anyways -- forget I mentioned it."

I understand that this interpretation goes against the grain of what is commonly thought about the Orz and Arilou equation, but if anything else I've learned from SC2, is that TFB went into great detail with their stories, and just because something SEEMS the way it does, doesn't make it true.  


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: lightman on February 16, 2004, 10:38:30 pm
Quote


You gotta remember everything we're doing here is speculating and interpreting.

1) You, me, most mortal beings can't contemplate fear without death, but that doesn't mean immortal things aren't fearful.   Arilou mention on numerous occasions they are changing our *smell* to protect us from some entity.  They don't implicitly imply this entity will kill us,  just that us Meeting this entity would be bad.  

2) Silly doesn't have to have a 'bad' connotation.  It can mean, well SILLY, like they act in a peculiar manner.  That is more telling in my opinoin.  If Orz is trying to help the Androsynth, and the Androsynth misinterpret this, then Orz might think the Androsynth are Silly for making things so difficult!

3) My whole point about the Arilou and the *Nggn* is that the Arilou dismiss them as irrelevant.  If you think something is irrelevant you'd be less inclined to investigate it further.  The Arilou would never tell a human if the *Nggn* were dangerous!  Humans are curious and would therefore investigate further.  So, the Arilou say (And I paraphrase here) "oh, the Nggn?  Don't worry about them, they're not important -- besides you couldn't even see them or touch them anyways -- forget I mentioned it."

I understand that this interpretation goes against the grain of what is commonly thought about the Orz and Arilou equation, but if anything else I've learned from SC2, is that TFB went into great detail with their stories, and just because something SEEMS the way it does, doesn't make it true.  


Yes but there is a difference between speculation based on something and pure speculation.

1. They don't blow us up to stop us.

2. It's *silly* and the Vux are also *silly* when Orz decided to blow them up until the Arilou came in and stopped it. Humans are also *silly* when Orz gets mad and attacks.

3. Of course they would tells humans if they were dangerous! They tell humans about the "parasites"! "Them"!

What are you basing this "common grain" on? I've seen arguments both ways, and I am not sure I can say one is more dominant than the other. Yes, TFB worked hard on the story, and that story suggests something other than the Orz just being a nice, helpful race. They wanted a creepy, ominous race and they succeeded.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: CrowZone on February 16, 2004, 11:28:36 pm
1) no, the Arilou don't blow us up to stop us,  But remember they've been studying Humanity for a long time and have a great understanding of us.  Orz on the other hand, might not really understand that humans are individual beings, or it might on an intellectual level believe this, but figure that when it blows up a ship, its merely smacking the hands of a greater entity.  So blowing up a ship, to Orz isn't really a big deal, its just like a smack on the bottom.  Of course, if you press TOO much, then Orz realizes there's nothing that can be done and will just "smack" at any human it finds because it figures we can't learn from its form of discipline.

Vux are Silly and Humans are Silly?  Of course Orz thinks anyone trying to interfere with them are silly! (Though I'm not sure where the Vux being silly is mentioned)

Thats the point,  The * * translations are best fit, and are often more literal then interpretive.  Its not that *Silly* means something else to an Orz, its just the best word to fit what Orz is trying to say.  

If you don't understand WHY someone is doing something, and it goes contrary to what your trying to do, its quite possible that you would say they're acting 'silly'

As for the Arilou telling us if something was dangerous?  What makes you th8ink that?  If you believe Arilou are 100% trustworthy, well, then you believe that -- I personally don't  Remember, these are supposed to be the Aliens goin around anal probing Humans in the 1900's :P  They pretty much always act vague and mysterious regarding everything, and all we have is their word that whatever they're doing is in our best interest.   The Orz and the Arilou BOTH seem to have hidden purposes.  Neither race really likes one another much, though Orz seems to take it in a more playfull manner then the Arilou.  

Yes the Orz are creepy in the way things are comming off -- Creepy in a Childlike way -- kinda like the kid in pet cemetary.  But at the same token, wouldn't it be CREEPIER story wise if Orz ISNT inherently evil?  I think so.  People have all these pre-concieved notions, with little in the way of evidence (other then circumstantial and missunderstandings) that Orz is evil - wouldn't it blow your mind if they're not?


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Culture20 on February 17, 2004, 01:49:13 am
This:
Quote
Part of what we do on Earth is for your own protection.
There are parasites. Creatures who dwell Beyond.
They have names, but you do not know them. They would like to find you
but they are blind to your presence... unless you show yourselves.
The Androsynth showed themselves, and something noticed them.
There are no more Androsynth now. Only Orz.

This sounds creepy. Please go on.
No. In a way, ignorance is your armor, your best protection.
They cannot see you now. They cannot smell you.
Much of our work with your people involved making you invisible... changing your smell.
If I tell you more, you will look where you could never look before
and while you are looking you can and will be seen.
You do not want to be seen.

sounds starkly different from this:
Quote
What are you exploring for in these `easy places'?
We seek to trap *Nnngn*, but they dart and leap.
YOU cannot trap *Nnngn*... do not even try.
I do not think you can even touch them; you are not quite solid enough.

Okay, you trap these nungy things. Then what?
Why we let them go, of course! *Nnngn* do not like to be confined!
Captain, these things we talk about... they are unimportant to you... they are as dreams.
Our words should address your universe... not ours.


The nungy things are _not_ the parasites, because the Arilou talk to us about them.  The Arilou wouldn't have said as much as they did about the nungy unless they considered them harmless to us.  They know how curious we are, and they also know that we are grown-up enough to listen to a warning.  If we were told about a magical *phlarr*, but we couldn't touch the *phlarr*, we'd try and find a way to touch it.  If they told us that the *phlarr* would kill us, they know that we wouldn't try to touch it.  This is what they did with the Parasites (which they mention in the same paragraph as the Orz).

They also let the nungies go after they have been caught.  The best explanation is that they are the interdimenional equivilant to a Butterfly.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: lightman on February 17, 2004, 05:32:29 am
Quote
1) no, the Arilou don't blow us up to stop us,  But remember they've been studying Humanity for a long time and have a great understanding of us. Orz on the other hand, might not really understand...

Orz might not understand the full impact of what it does, but that does not reflect its intentions. Its intentions are clearly negative. At one point it says more or less, "if you ask about the Androsynth again, it will be bad and I will attack and destroy you."

If you are say the question another time it is *frumple* too much and Orz are *dancing* for *dissolving* the *campers*.

Quote
Vux are Silly and Humans are Silly?  Of course Orz thinks anyone trying to interfere with them are silly! (Though I'm not sure where the Vux being silly is mentioned)

First the VUX, but they are such *silly cows* they ask so much about the Androsynth we must *dance* with them. Then we can *smell* the Arilou. Again they are *jumping in front*. It is always! Nnnnggaaahhhhh!

Quote

Thats the point,  The * * translations are best fit, and are often more literal then interpretive.  Its not that *Silly* means something else to an Orz, its just the best word to fit what Orz is trying to say.  

* * indicates that the translation is questionable. The point is not the precise meaning of *silly* but that the Orz calls beings *silly* that it blows up.

Quote
As for the Arilou telling us if something was dangerous?  What makes you th8ink that?

Are you just ignoring what they say in the game and what I write here? They do tell humans about the "parasites"! That is what makes me think they would tell humans. They actually do it! What more do you need?

They also warn the player about the Dnyarri. Plus, look at this quote:

Do not trust the Orz, my Human Captain. They are dangerous.

Another warning. The Arilou even use the very word! "Dangerous"!

Quote

Yes the Orz are creepy in the way things are comming off -- Creepy in a Childlike way -- kinda like the kid in pet cemetary.  But at the same token, wouldn't it be CREEPIER story wise if Orz ISNT inherently evil?  I think so.  People have all these pre-concieved notions, with little in the way of evidence (other then circumstantial and missunderstandings) that Orz is evil - wouldn't it blow your mind if they're not?

No. What are these "pre-conceived notions"? You seem to ignore what evidence there is, anyway, prefering to speculate without any at all.

Again, where are you getting this from? Who said that Orz is inherently evil? I certainly did not. TFB wanted to make the player unsure of Orz - whether to trust it or not. But Orz is responsible for the Androsynth disappearing. That is indisputable. What the game seems to suggest is that this happened in a bad way, and that Orz understands that and wants to forget it. Orz never wants to go back to that dimension.

To Culture20:
Exactly! There is a big difference in how they talk about the two.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Death 999 on February 17, 2004, 08:18:00 pm
Remember, the portal spawner could pick you UP from anywhere, but could only drop you off in one of 16 locations.

Quote
REMEMBER, in SC2 -- The Commander of the starbase mentions that the ARilou just POPPED into space near the starbase with some ships for you


Well, let's look at it another way.

Quote
We are many places, at many *times*. This place is an easy place... one of the ten easy places.


Note that 10 is not vaguely close to the number of quasispace exits (15 normal ones, plus the unstable one and their homeworld). This suggests that their easy places are different. Since they have been investigating Earth for a LOONG time, it seems likely that Earth is an easy place. Furthermore, the only other time the story has them popping up out of nowhere completely, that was also in Earth orbit (immediately upon Earth signing the alliance with the Chenjesu).

Alternately, even if Earth is not an easy place, they sure have a lot of practice with navigating to it even if it is not such an easy place.

******

As for the Orz, the protective idea is plausible, but relies on the Orz' difficulty with social behavior.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Praetor on February 18, 2004, 01:15:46 pm
Quote
Remember, the portal spawner could pick you UP from anywhere, but could only drop you off in one of 16 locations.



True, but remember, the portal spawner wasn't truly Arliou technology.  It was a hybrid of their tech and Ur-Quan technology for use with the Precursor vessel.  It had a limited power supply.  The spawner wasn't made to the specifications of 'pure' Arliou spawners, hence its limits.

As for the first war, yes, Arliou could teleport behind enemy lines.  Did they do this often?  No.  Virtually any defensive installation would pick them off with defensive weapons or their shielding would be too strong for the lasers of the Arliou Skiffs.  Remember, the Skiffs are science and exploration vessels, not full scale warships.  They go boom pretty fast.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Death 999 on February 18, 2004, 08:06:12 pm
Quote
Virtually any defensive installation would pick them off with defensive weapons or their shielding would be too strong for the lasers of the Arliou Skiffs.


Gee, I remember them blowing up mines, colonies, and fortifications pretty handily in SC1. And since that was one of the main things Skiffs were good for (bypassing fortifications to blow up mines and colonies), you'd think it would be a pretty lousy tactical simulator if it got that wrong.
The issue is, they had to do it the 'hard' way, flying through space with little teleport hops -- not just materialize anywhere at whim.

Quote
Remember, the Skiffs are science and exploration vessels, not full scale warships.


I try not to remember that which is false. The number of ways the Arilou kick ass in a fight is larger than one. Anyway, I am not sure that the Arilou really have science anymore, though I am sure they have exploration.

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They go boom pretty fast.


Or was that their teleport wake?


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Ivan Ivanov on February 18, 2004, 08:55:46 pm
Quote
Note that 10 is not vaguely close to the number of quasispace exits (15 normal ones, plus the unstable one and their homeworld). This suggests that their easy places are different.


The 10 easy places might be the rainbow worlds. I think there was a rainbow world near the Arilou.

Quote
Since they have been investigating Earth for a LOONG time, it seems likely that Earth is an easy place. Furthermore, the only other time the story has them popping up out of nowhere completely, that was also in Earth orbit (immediately upon Earth signing the alliance with the Chenjesu).


I think that this little quote kind of proves that Arilou CAN move all around the galaxy through quasispace:

Quote
COMMANDER HAYES:
They possess some technique for moving REALLY fast through HyperSpace.
They never let us know what it was, but it sure beat the pants off our fastest ships


Quote
Gee, I remember them blowing up mines, colonies, and fortifications pretty handily in SC1. And since that was one of the main things Skiffs were good for (bypassing fortifications to blow up mines and colonies), you'd think it would be a pretty lousy tactical simulator if it got that wrong.


I'm affraid that SC1 is no simulator of any kind so P&F didn't have to worry about realism (no wonder, it's a comic-like space shoot'em-up), they even didn't have to worry about plot inconsistencies because SC1 hardly has a plot.

I think that the reason why Arilou couldn't go anywhere thay wanted in SC1 is very simple - game balance. It would be *silly* if P&F had to limit the plot of SC2 because of a game balance issue of SC1


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Culture20 on February 18, 2004, 08:55:59 pm
Also, the Arilou teleports in combat are short-range hyperspace jumps (physically impossible for other ships), not quasi-jumps (no access to quasispace from truespace & vice versa).  Hyperjumps are the explanation that the SC1 manual gives for the teleports; and works better with the sc-psuedo-physics we know.

Just saw Ivan's post:
No rainbow world in the Arliou's sphere.

All Hayes' statement means is that they know a way to get around HS quickly (doesn't mean _everywhere_ in HS).  The only observed behaviour could have been traveling "instantly" into Chenjesu/Ilwrath space after just having been in Earth-space, or something just as miraculous.  It offers no extra proof that they can choose an arbitrary destination.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Ivan Ivanov on February 18, 2004, 09:26:56 pm
I didn't say IN Arilou's s sphere but NEAR it.

Also the discussion isn't about wheter they can choose an arbitrary destination but a "key location" as CrowZone has put it

edit: Oh, by the way - from the quote I mentioned and the quote about Arilou popping out of nowhere you actually could conclude that they CAN pick an arbitraty destination


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Death 999 on February 18, 2004, 10:06:22 pm
You missed MY point, which was that (EDIT: is is quite possible that) either Earth is one of these easy places, or they have mapped out the hard route to Earth by long practice. So even if Earth isn't an easy place, then while technically they could jump anywhere in space, they don't know most places in space well enough to actually DO it.

I was initially skeptical of the rainbow worlds idea: I thought of it and discarded it when thinking about the quasispace exits. When you mentioned it,  I realized that the Precursors may have used the easy places and the rainbow worlds would be related.

However, while there is a rainbow world kind of near Arilou space, it's a solid 5 days of hyperspace at max speed from the periodic quasispace portal. Its distance from Arilou space is roughly equal to Arilou space's diameter. This is kind of far to be considered the same place.


As for SC1, if you read the manual, it is supposed to be a tactical and strategic simulator used at Star Control (the C&C operation of Earth) to train their commanders. As such, I figured the ships' abilities represented in at least some vague sense the abilities of the ships. Even if we toss that out, it still stands to reason that the hierarchy could not adequately defend every single mine all the time.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Culture20 on February 18, 2004, 10:47:32 pm
Quote
edit: Oh, by the way - from the quote I mentioned and the quote about Arilou popping out of nowhere you actually could conclude that they CAN pick an arbitraty destination
But remember; that's truespace, not HS.  they can make a short-range TS jump through HS, but QS doesn't touch TS.  So, unless further evidence presents itself (about ariliou TS<->QS tech, Falayalaralfali not withstanding), one can't conclude that they can make arbitrary jumps.  It's easier to say that they use HS to make these showy 'ports (esp. since it _is_ in the SC1 manual).

To get to earth: or by-pass fortifications:  The Arilou use QS to get close to Sol (the regular portal we choose), HS closer to Sol, then they spend a couple seconds time on the calculations (something they can't do in combat; they just randomly 'port) then they HS-jump into place for "effect".  Note that the VUX do something similar at the start of combat (regarding the calculations, they can't do a short-range HS-jump).

Edit: Imagine an Arilou ship with a VUX mathematician aboard:
The skiff could 'port in combat immediately next to the opponent if the special button is pressed long enough, then 'port out at random when dodging


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Ivan Ivanov on February 19, 2004, 05:55:46 pm
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You missed MY point, which was that either Earth is one of these easy places, or they have mapped out the hard route to Earth by long practice. So even if Earth isn't an easy place, then while technically they could jump anywhere in space, they don't know most places in space well enough to actually DO it.


I'm sorry but, how do you know, that they don't know them well enough. They are an ancient race. They had a lot of time for exploring. The fact that we didn't see them jump out of nowhere anywhere else is not an argument.

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I was initially skeptical of the rainbow worlds idea: I thought of it and discarded it when thinking about the quasispace exits. When you mentioned it,  I realized that the Precursors may have used the easy places and the rainbow worlds would be related.


Hmm.. I always thought that the rainbow worlds were just waste dumps and the *easy places* around and many other things were just side effects (but then again the rainbow worlds form a pattern, hmmm)

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However, while there is a rainbow world kind of near Arilou space, it's a solid 5 days of hyperspace at max speed from the periodic quasispace portal. Its distance from Arilou space is roughly equal to Arilou space's diameter. This is kind of far to be considered the same place.


Far? If it was Ur-Quan's space diameter I would agree, I would even agree if it anybode else's space diameter, but Arilou have the smallest sphere of influence while the raibow world's event horrison might be quite big.

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As for SC1, if you read the manual, it is supposed to be a tactical and strategic simulator used at Star Control (the C&C operation of Earth) to train their commanders. As such, I figured the ships' abilities represented in at least some vague sense the abilities of the ships. Even if we toss that out, it still stands to reason that the hierarchy could not adequately defend every single mine all the time.


Again it is just a game and it needs balnce to be fun. And in my opinion Arilou beeing able to pass fortification is a some vague representation of them beeing able to go where they want.

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But remember; that's truespace, not HS.  they can make a short-range TS jump through HS, but QS doesn't touch TS.  So, unless further evidence presents itself (about ariliou TS<->QS tech, Falayalaralfali not withstanding)


Hold on there! Why not?
If they can make a TrueSpace pocket in QuasiSpace the size of a planet, then why couldn't they make a straight QS->TS jump. Such a jump in a small ship would need far less energy then keeping a planet-sized hole in a dimension.

Quote
Edit: Imagine an Arilou ship with a VUX mathematician aboard:
The skiff could 'port in combat immediately next to the opponent if the special button is pressed long enough, then 'port out at random when dodging


Mathematician?
Don't you think that an ancient race of inter-stellar and inter-dimensional travellers are smart enough to invent a PC?


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Death 999 on February 19, 2004, 07:04:20 pm
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I'm sorry but, how do you know, that they don't know them well enough. They are an ancient race. They had a lot of time for exploring. The fact that we didn't see them jump out of nowhere anywhere else is not an argument.


The point of my argument (which I did lose track of for a moment, now corrected) is that the mere fact that they can do it at Earth is not a proof that they can do it anywhere. I was COUNTER-arguing.

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Far? If it was Ur-Quan's space diameter I would agree, I would even agree if it anybode else's space diameter, but Arilou have the smallest sphere of influence while the raibow world's event horrison might be quite big.


Yes, but if you are in a location because of something, then you think you would actually be AT it instead of congregating at such a range that your mean distance to it is twice as much as your mean distance from each other, right? Considering that Arilou space IS centered on the recurring quasispace portal, it seems overwhelmingly likely that that is the easy place, not the vaguely nearby rainbow world.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: NECRO-99 on February 20, 2004, 12:49:59 am
Ivan, I think he meant attaching the VUX Intruder's Thrust Nacelles to a Skiff to allow it to teleport next to an opponent, zappify, and 'port away again quickly.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Death 999 on February 20, 2004, 01:11:32 am
I think he meant that the VUX used advanced mathematics to make more detailed hyperspace calculations, rather than using better hardware.

I'd be inclined toward a combination of the two.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Chrispy on February 20, 2004, 01:48:24 am
Maybe they use mathematics to make better hardware ;D


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Culture20 on February 20, 2004, 01:59:32 am
From the SC1 manual (SC2 manual does not mention how the Intruder does this):
Quote
The Intruders are capable of appearing in Truespace
adjacent to any enemy vessel; the crews' navigational abil-
ities make the sneak attack a favorite tactic of these bipedal
nasties.

Suppose I should have said navigator instead of mathematician.
That quote also answers a question I had in another thread; VUX are bipeds.


QS<->TS:  the reason I said "Falayalaralfali not withstanding" is because we don't know whether the Truespace eddy is a natural phenomenon or Arilou-created.  It was an SC3 plot that made the Arilou move from TS to QS;  SC2 Arilou might naturally be from QS.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Sage on February 20, 2004, 09:35:37 am
Though this may not solve the problem of what happened to the Androsynth at home, consider this. If people really want to see some more Androsynth, then why can't they ask the Ur-Quan for some? Think about it: Dreadnaughts are crewed by members of all thrall races, right? So it stands to reason that some Androsynth are still alive somewhere.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on February 20, 2004, 10:36:30 am
Quote
Though this may not solve the problem of what happened to the Androsynth at home, consider this. If people really want to see some more Androsynth, then why can't they ask the Ur-Quan for some? Think about it: Dreadnaughts are crewed by members of all thrall races, right? So it stands to reason that some Androsynth are still alive somewhere.


Because no matter what you will say to them or even if you will tell them dramaticly about the Androsynth that will make the Utwig suicide, they will attack you and then you have two options:
1. Die.
2. Kill everyone who is onboard the Dreadnaught. Might result in killing the last of the Synths. Bad idea.

For conclusion, don't fight the Ur-quan if you don't want to kill any Synths. Kill the black ones instead.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Culture20 on February 20, 2004, 12:11:20 pm
You could use a fleet of Penetrators to steal back the 'synths off the dreadnaughts if they were onboard, but the Arilou mention that there are no more Androsynth, only Orz.  That could mean no Androsynth anywhere in TS.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: NECRO-99 on February 20, 2004, 07:31:59 pm
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Because no matter what you will say to them or even if you will tell them dramaticly about the Androsynth that will make the Utwig suicide...


What the hell do the Utwig have anything to do about it?

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You could use a fleet of Penetrators to steal back the 'synths off the dreadnaughts if they were onboard, but the Arilou mention that there are no more Androsynth, only Orz.  That could mean no Androsynth anywhere in TS.


Facts:
1.) The Androsynth were *seen* by Orz after the 'synth opened their first IDF portal.
2.) The Orz didn't even know that this plane of existance, well, existed.
3.) The Orz *pull* Androsynth, making their planet a deserted wasteland.

This we all know. Now, think of it this way.
1.) The Orz can only *smell* Androsynth. No other races. They see *light reflections* of us, but not our *smell* (our material bodies, yes, but not our link to this existance [spirits, souls, whatever you prefer to call them]).
2.) All Androsynth are clones. One genetic strain, one *smell*.
3.) The Orz now have access to our reality, anytime, anywhere. They just have to *smell* someone to get to them.
4.) Any Androsynth on a Dreadnought would be able to be *smelled* by Orz, and therefore would be *pulled*.

Imagine how creepy it would be, sitting on a Dreadnought, and all of the sudden, all of the Androsynth start to scream and cuts begin appearing on their bodies. They get more and more of them until they suddenly fade out of existance. The Spathi would all probably have heart attacks on the spot. :P


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on February 20, 2004, 07:40:16 pm
It was just an example, it is known that the Utwig are about to kill themself (if something bad happens) so I used them.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Sage on February 21, 2004, 03:25:12 pm
If only one Androsynth vanished from a single Drednaught, but nobody actually saw it happen, the Ur-Quan could simply assume that he jumped ship and is probably dead*. However, if every Androsynth on all Drednaughts vanished (simultaneously or no), there's sure to be at least one other crewmember that saw it happen (and report the phenomenon). Even with the Doctrinal Conflict going on, I would think that the Ur-Quan would be prudent enough to send one ship to check up on the Androsynth (perhaps to see if their missing crew came back there).

Since the Ur-Quan never checked, that must mean that either only a few Androsynth vanished from their ships (not enough to warrant searching for them), or none of them did.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Death 999 on February 21, 2004, 11:11:25 pm
Either that or the Ur-Quan stopped using Androsynth as Dreadnaught crew.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: NECRO-99 on February 25, 2004, 03:36:23 am
Either that or the Kzer-Za were too involved in dealing with the Doctrinal Conflict to send even a single 'nought to Androsynth space.
I would assume that all the Androsynth onboard Dreadnoughts were *pulled* at a relatively close proximity in time, tied, of course, to when the homeworld's inhabitants were as well.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Joe on March 03, 2004, 12:26:49 am
The Ur-Quan might not have even cared if the Androsynth started to dissappear, they were only lowly battle thralls.

As for the Orz, I have to side with the belief that they are not truly evil.  If they were, then there is really no reason that they could not just destroy or pull into another dimension any lifeform they come into contact with.  As it was stated earlier,
it is discovered that the Androsynth become obsessed with finding any and all information they can about "ghosts" and "spirits."  This, I presume, would be the *they*.  They Orz have chosen a specific form to interact with realspace, and it does not resemble ghosts.  It may be possible that the Orz tried to hide the Androsynth in many ways.  One way would be to pull them into another dimension (which they may or may not have survived the process, and would cause the subject to be quite touchy for the Orz).  Another, quite possibly would be to destroy the Androsynth, with the possibility that their spirits would rise to a dimension out of reach of the *they*, the ghosts.  Even so, the Androsynth may not like being forced into this or that dimension by the Orz, which is why they might have resisted or may still be resisting.  The statement "there are no more androsynth now, only Orz" does not have to mean that there are no more Androsynth period.  It may just mean that there are no more Androsynth in any dimesion that you can reach, especially since the Arilou are not very forthcoming with you because they do not want you to go looking.

As for the possibilities of the Arilou's capabilities to move in and out of realspace, it does seem that the only QS-->RS wormhole existing (at least in the game) is the the eddy that takes you to there homeworld.  And while it may not be possible for the Arilou to travel from QS to HS or RS at any time, many have overlooked the possibility that the Arilou may be able to breech these boundries through some other dimension in space.  It may be that there is another dimension that can access anyone one of these.  It is obviously not the Orz, because they could not see realspace, but there could be countless other dimensions.  The Arilou not using there abilities to the fullest against the heirarchy means nothing.  In fact, they may have wanted the war to end as it had, with Earth protected under a slave shield, without atomic or any other comparable power source, unable to make the same mistakes that the Androsynth did.

Hmm... that was kinda long, hope it makes some sense.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Joe on March 03, 2004, 01:37:15 am
Also, I don't think that the Rainbow Worlds have much to do with the QS holes into HS.  The Slylandro state that the Precursors found/made the rainbow worlds to achieve their final goal (whatever it was) which inevitably lead to their leaving the galaxy/dimension.  It may be possible that in creating the rainbow worlds they created the QS-->HS wormholes without knowing it, but also unlikely.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: FalconMWC on March 03, 2004, 03:01:42 am
Then what you are saying is that the spathi are wrong when they said it was a "precursor dump". Probaly meaning that they were the precursors junkyard. I wonder if that is what the makers of the game meant......  



Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: NECRO-99 on March 03, 2004, 03:27:05 am
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The Ur-Quan might not have even cared if the Androsynth started to dissappear, they were only lowly battle thralls.


Quoth the Ur-Quan:
Quote
We will protect you from the hazards of this hostile universe, from dangers so hideous your simple minds cannot imagine their dark scope.


I know it probably doesn't mean much coming from a crazed millipede, but they believe what they say, and more importantly, they do what they say. There was no such thing as a 'lowly battle thrall'. They were all of equal worth in Ur-Quanian eyes, and all were under their protection.

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It may just mean that there are no more Androsynth in any dimesion that you can reach, especially since the Arilou are not very forthcoming with you because they do not want you to go looking.


I bet those little buggers know what happened, too. >:(

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In fact, they may have wanted the war to end as it had, with Earth protected under a slave shield, without atomic or any other comparable power source, unable to make the same mistakes that the Androsynth did.


Referring to the Arilou, I hope.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Joe on March 03, 2004, 04:04:54 am
Quote
Then what you are saying is that the spathi are wrong when they said it was a "precursor dump". Probaly meaning that they were the precursors junkyard. I wonder if that is what the makers of the game meant......  



Could have been dumping grounds of some sort, but does anyone have any idea how that would play into what the Slylandro say about the rainbow worlds?  Could it be that they created the worlds and positioned them in such a way in the galaxy as to utilize some collective force to achieve whatever goal they managed to obtain?


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Joe on March 03, 2004, 04:11:36 am
Quote




I bet those little buggers know what happened, too. >:(


Referring to the Arilou, I hope.


I don't think there is any doubt that they knew what happened to the Androsynth.  I wouldn't be suprised if they knew what happened to the Taalo, the Precursors, and the Sentient Milue.  The Arilou are obviously a sneaky lot.  I wonder why they even bothered to help the human race at all, there must be some gain for them in this.  Too bad SC3 didn't pick up when any of this stuff really left off >:(.

And yes, I was refering to the Arilou.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Joe on March 03, 2004, 04:19:54 am
Quote


Could have been dumping grounds of some sort, but does anyone have any idea how that would play into what the Slylandro say about the rainbow worlds?  Could it be that they created the worlds and positioned them in such a way in the galaxy as to utilize some collective force to achieve whatever goal they managed to obtain?


I have an idea about this.  If anyone here reads It's Walky, then they may know where I'm going with this.  Recently, a couple of the comics involved a group moving from one dimension to another, and to do so without destroying the dimension they were leaving, there had to be some sort of transfer of mass/energy/something to replace the lost energy.  Maybe this is what the rainbow worlds are for/made of?  I know it's a far fetch, because during travel to QS and HS, it is not needed.  Maybe wherever the Precursors went wasn't even another dimension, but some other aspect of space/time, and it was necessary to avoid destroying all they left behind and all they were moving for.  Then again, it would help to explain why the Orz can't just move fully into RS, although I don't know why the Arilou would not have to worry about this (probably cuz they're sneaky little bastards).

I'm quoting my own posts, which means it's about time for me to get my own sig.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: 3DO_Guy on March 03, 2004, 09:36:30 am
Here's some new ideas for you so as to confuse everything even more:

1) The orz are the *fingers* of the Precursors. The Precursors are giants as you will recall. their fingers may well be the size of an Orz. They have possibly evolved so far as that even some of their limbs and/or organs have gained sentience.

2) The Rainbow Worlds are the easy places. This is what the Precursors constructed them for. They used these to travel to whatever dimension they are in now and their fingers managed to poke through from that dimension. If the Orz are the fingers of the Precursors this explains why those are the 10 easy places they know about.

3) The Orz did try to rescue the Androsynth (sort of, more like they helped the Precursors). "Snatched" does not necessarily imply that they struggled. Rather it means they were taken quickly without warning. Perhaps when the Precursors learned of the Androsynths discovery they attempted to pull all the Androsynth in with them. But in order to do so they would need to punch further in than with just their fingers. This explains maybe the "mosquito mange" effect.

4) "They" are most definately NOT the Orz. The Androsynth discovered "They" first. Then the Precursors sensed this from their dimension and and punched through in order to save the Androsynth. The fingers stayed behind because they liked it in *heavy space*.

5) *Bubbles* are atoms. *Many bubbles* are molecules. Most molecular models show atoms as bubbles, and molecules are made up of multiple atoms or many bubbles. We think the Orz are made up of some type of molecular structure similar to ours but that may not be the case in their dimension. Human bodies can only withstand one set of physical laws but the Precursors bodies may have been capable of adapting to new physics. Thus, the Orz are made up of whatever they need to be made of in order to exist in the plane they are on. My guess is they are from some type of ethreal or astral plane as they refer to our dimension as *heavy space*.

I sat up all night reading this entire thread to make sure I didn't repeat anybody else too much. I enjoyed everyone else's veiws very much and couldn't tear myself from a single post. I would very much like to hear some thoughts.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: stealthy on March 03, 2004, 10:20:10 am
Quote
Here's some new ideas for you so as to confuse everything even more:

1) The orz are the *fingers* of the Precursors.


4) "They" are most definately NOT the Orz. The Androsynth discovered "They" first. Then the Precursors sensed this from their dimension and and punched through in order to save the Androsynth. The fingers stayed behind because they liked it in *heavy space*.

5) *Bubbles* are atoms. *Many bubbles* are molecules. Most molecular models show atoms as bubbles, and molecules are made up of multiple atoms or many bubbles. We think the Orz are made up of some type of molecular structure similar to ours but that may not be the case in their dimension. Human bodies can only withstand one set of physical laws but the Precursors bodies may have been capable of adapting to new physics. Thus, the Orz are made up of whatever they need to be made of in order to exist in the plane they are on. My guess is they are from some type of ethreal or astral plane as they refer to our dimension as *heavy space*.



While possible, there are some descrepancies.  If the Orz are indeed an extention of the Precursor, then why is there a problem with the translation.  It is clear that through dealings with the Slylandro that the Precursors were at least able to manage common dialect that is obviously maintained well enough so that you can make out all of what the Slylandro tell (though I will give that they have also had interaction with the Milue and the Melnorme).  As a lesser extension of the Precursor, the Orz should at least be able to manage something like that.  Also, the thought of sentience within sentience does not seem plausible.  If a portion of sentience within another sentient being tried to rebel (felt imprisoned or whatever), it could mean the end of the greater sentient being.  It'd be like a person's liver rebelling against an alcoholic.   I don't think that a sentient being, such as the precursors (with as much power as we assume they have) would give lesser portions of themselves such possibly self-destructive power.  I also do not feel that the Precursors would just allow a part of themselves to remain in real space, a place which they undertook such great feats such as the rainbow worlds to leave.  However, I do agree with your take on the *bubbles*.  I think that the Orz, as their own entity manipulate normal space in order to create molecular beings such as is seen, in order to interact with other species.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: 3DO_Guy on March 03, 2004, 11:05:53 am
Quote


While possible, there are some descrepancies.  If the Orz are indeed an extention of the Precursor, then why is there a problem with the translation.  It is clear that through dealings with the Slylandro that the Precursors were at least able to manage common dialect that is obviously maintained well enough so that you can make out all of what the Slylandro tell (though I will give that they have also had interaction with the Milue and the Melnorme).  As a lesser extension of the Precursor, the Orz should at least be able to manage something like that.  Also, the thought of sentience within sentience does not seem plausible.  If a portion of sentience within another sentient being tried to rebel (felt imprisoned or whatever), it could mean the end of the greater sentient being.  It'd be like a person's liver rebelling against an alcoholic.   I don't think that a sentient being, such as the precursors (with as much power as we assume they have) would give lesser portions of themselves such possibly self-destructive power.  I also do not feel that the Precursors would just allow a part of themselves to remain in real space, a place which they undertook such great feats such as the rainbow worlds to leave.


Hmmm....
I think I can answer most of that. The fingers evoled sentience seperate from the Precusors. Thus, they may have developed their own language and hence the problems with translation. Senteience within sentience has been done in other sci-fi stories. An example of this is Vampire Hunter D. D's hand is itself a seperate sentient being. Most sentients that are part of another sentient would probably not rebel as we can assume they have evolved enough to know that destroying the host will most likely destroy themselves. Even at the earliest stages of evolution some form of instinct or genetic programming would likely prevent this. Finally, I believe the Precursors may have allowed the Orz to remain behind so nobody would get too suspicous and go snooping around for the Androsynth. They figured most races would simply think that the Androsynth were conquered by the Orz and leave it at that. The Orz had never been to *heavy space* so the Precursors might have just made a concession in order to keep them happy and/or occupied so that they could get on with more important matters.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: stealthy on March 03, 2004, 11:39:49 am
Quote


Finally, I believe the Precursors may have allowed the Orz to remain behind so nobody would get too suspicous and go snooping around for the Androsynth. They figured most races would simply think that the Androsynth were conquered by the Orz and leave it at that. The Orz had never been to *heavy space* so the Precursors might have just made a concession in order to keep them happy and/or occupied so that they could get on with more important matters.



Good points except for that last one I'm having trouble with.  I'm pretty sure that the Slylandro said that the Precursors were leaving because they were worried (i think that's what they said, but don't quote me) about something.  I doubt they would allow parts of themselves to remain in a dimension in which they had something to worry about.  There are a couple of other things too, but I'm having trouble getting them all into coherent thoughts cuz this is all starting to hurt my brain.  It has something to do with the Orz, chasing the *they*, and the Nggn though, if someone wants to take stabs in the dark.

And I must admit, since I first played SC2 when I was little, and unable to decypher all the plot craziness, SC3 was even worse plot wise then I could possibly imagine.  I mean, did it answer anything? :-/


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Captain_Falkenhayn on March 03, 2004, 11:41:25 am
Contentious statement #1: The Orz entity found the Androsynth because they "looked" and thenceforth could find all Androsynths because it had "got the knack of it." Then the parasitic Orz entity "pulled" on the Androsynth, and eventually transformed them into the "Orz fingers" which affect this reality like independent hands for it.

Contentious statement #2: The Arilou are not just from a higher form of space, but also time. They are what humans eventually evolve into.

How's that?


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Tiberian on March 05, 2004, 10:44:28 pm
Even though the SC3 plot was not excellent, in my opinion it's explanation about precursors and rainbow worlds was very good, since it was not at all in any conflict with SC2 and some pieces of information gathered in SC2 even boost that story.

So far I think SC3 offers the best explanation to what happened to the precursors and why. Even though it is 'the evil SC3' I like it.

I don't think the Precursors or the rainbow worlds have anything to do with this orz-arilou scheme.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: lightman on March 06, 2004, 06:07:15 pm
I don't think the Precursors or the Rainbow Worlds have any significance regarding Orz. As for SC3, I wouldn't say people think of it as evil... more like, a bad game that shouldn't have happened. The story was not written by TFB, which is a definite minus, but the main thing is that the game was dull and uninspired.

http://www.classicgaming.com/starcontrol/sc3/sc3www.shtml

There are probably many other points you could add to that list. One of the game's two primary goals: "Find the cause of Inter-Dimensional Fatigue, and reverse it to restore Hyper Space travel" is already enough to warrant a red flag. IDF causing the collapse of hyperspace travel seems ludicrous. The plot was full of problems.

All-in-all, none of the elements in SC3 stood out. It was poor as an adventure game, as a strategy game, and as an action game.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: FalconMWC on March 06, 2004, 07:57:41 pm
Not to mention the bugs in the game when you have already beaten it and know wqhat to do. When you do the game to fast it does not allow you to do something. (A certain missle!)


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on March 06, 2004, 08:40:25 pm
It isn't a bug... there are 3 timed events. You need to wait for the second to get the option to do the missle mission. But lets get back to the topic, shall we?


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: FalconMWC on March 07, 2004, 01:04:11 am
Quote
Finally, I believe the Precursors may have allowed the Orz to remain behind so nobody would get too suspicous and go snooping around for the Androsynth. They figured most races would simply think that the Androsynth were conquered by the Orz and leave it at that. The Orz had never been to *heavy space* so the Precursors might have just made a concession in order to keep them happy and/or occupied so that they could get on with more important matters.


One problem. The precursors weren't around when the androsynTH (There you go NECRO!!!) were around. The slave/clone thing happened less than a hundred years earlier than the Ur-quan took over.
Info: http://www.classicgaming.com/starcontrol/sc2/sc2_hist.shtml

And the precursors were not seen for a long time according ot the slyrandro:

Q: Were there any other visitors here besides the Melnorme and Milieu races?

A: Yes, there was another race... a highly sophisticated species of shaggy giants
who made repeated trips to our world over a period of several Drahn.
They even installed a broadcasting satellite in orbit around our world
which let us talk with them whenever we wanted. They were called the
the
I'm sorry, I can't remember their names. It was a long, long time ago.

Q:Yow! That sounds like the Precursors! What else can you tell us about this race?!

A: I wish I knew more of the information you seek, Traveller
but we last saw the Shaggy Ones just over 39 Drahn ago
and very little from that era has remained intact in our history chants.
Hold on a moment, let me consult with associates Joyous Lifting and Sullen Plummet.

Taken from: http://www.classicgaming.com/starcontrol/sc2/quotes/slylandro.txt




Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Gigaleon on March 16, 2004, 10:11:50 pm
Joyous Lifting, who has a better memory than I recalls that the Shaggy Ones were described as being... worried. They were always hurrying from place to place, seeking knowledge as though they were in a desperate search for some important secret some answer to a question that they never shared with us. Sullen Plummet remembers that the last time the Shaggy Ones visited our world they came aboard a great circular starship, one even larger than your own.They had discovered their Answer and were leaving to go somewhere and they didn't tell us exactly where `somewhere' was.

You forgot to add this nice little paragraph. The circular start ship is rather interesting because some aliens ALSO have circular starships. Oh, and in case you people didn't catch from some early posts I saw, Orz fingers are the fingers of whatever stretching over four dimensional space since a four dimensional being interacting with three dimensions can make things pop out of nowhere.  

And before I go back to lurking in place that-shall-not-be-named for several more centuries, I highly doubt either the Arilou or Orz are better then the other. The Arilou are manipulate the humans along, and as they said they really don't like fighting. Of course Orz does, so how do we fight our archenemy without doing it ourselves? Make a new species for it. As the Arilou said, many different species have interdimensional 'families', so interdimensional conflict would probably occur quite often. Would make a nice subject for a game, after the Ur-Quan surrendered, everyone starts bickering over territory as the Orz and Arilou begin propaganda campaign as they gear up for a war on the Truespace/Hyperspace front. And of course, this would attract attention from those other terrible entities that haven't found our realm yet. Could be why the Precursors left, they had to quickly escape a war of great proportions before they were drug in by the beings that had decided to make the Milky Way their battleground.

Plus, it makes the Spathi technically RIGHT. That's always fun for irony  :P.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: FalconMWC on March 16, 2004, 10:25:47 pm
Whoa.... !  - This thread got ressurected! But ot answer your question... Yes, I left out that part because I saw no point in putting it in. What your saying is that the Precursors came back, (messed around with the androsynth) and then left again.

There is one huge problem - The ur-quan and other races were watching the humans for a long time. They would have noticed the prcursors because the androsynth were no that long ago...

Data taken from...
http://www.classicgaming.com/starcontrol/sc2/sc2_hist.shtml



Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Gigaleon on March 16, 2004, 11:07:22 pm
That was fast, and I meant that was why the Precursors left the first time. You know, 200,000 years ago, or whatever the date was.

And since I don't want to waste space random thought: Perhaps the Syreen was a branched experiment? They have powerful psychic abilities, humans don't really have much at all. The Arilou had two groups, both going for a different approach to their problem. The Syreen failed, perhaps because they grew to lazy, or their psychic abilities were making them harder to influence. Eventually, the Arilou decided to focus on guiding the humans.

My memory is a bit failed on the timeline, but this might have to do with the sudden burst of activity by the Arilou in the 1940s era. I'm not sure when the Syreen got kicked off by the Mycon, but it might have been relatively soon after the burst of Earth activity and/or when the Syreen were abandoned.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Chrispy on March 16, 2004, 11:10:12 pm
You know how the syreen and the humans look very very similar. It is my belief that the ariloo are responsible for this. A long time ago they abducted a handfull of humans, and guided the two groups in different ways, to see how we would be influenced.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Terminator on March 18, 2004, 09:13:30 am
Quote
You know how the syreen and the humans look very very similar. It is my belief that the ariloo are responsible for this. A long time ago they abducted a handfull of humans, and guided the two groups in different ways, to see how we would be influenced.


This could be true or u could watch way too much battlestar Galactica
funny is the fact that one the earthling cruiser captian names is Adama the chancellor of the Galactica


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Chrispy on March 18, 2004, 06:55:09 pm
I have never seen battle star galactica. In fact I don't know if its a tv show or a movie.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Culture20 on March 18, 2004, 08:14:54 pm
I don't remember any abductions or human experiments in BS:G, but it was a fun TV series back in the 70's and 80's.  Please don't watch the ones in the 80's (when they finally found the tribe that went to a planet called Earth); that was some of the worst TV ever made.

Of note: the Ur-Quan Dreadnaught is likely derived from the shape of a Battlestar, and the Syreen's rag-tag space fleet might be a story element borrowed from BS:G.

Recently, the SCI-FI channel rewrote BS:G as a mini-series, much to the chagrin of the rabid fans (who were expecting a faithful remake since the original director was involved).


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Chrispy on March 18, 2004, 08:30:01 pm
Even farther off topic: I have often thought that the ilwrath avenger was taken form the designs of clingon (spelled wrong I think) from Star Trek.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: FalconMWC on March 18, 2004, 08:31:18 pm
I wonder who thought of the mycon ship design.  :o


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Chrispy on March 18, 2004, 08:33:21 pm
The podship seems original to me. A fungus ship for a fungus race. Besides, where else is there a race of sentient fungus.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: FalconMWC on March 18, 2004, 08:35:38 pm
No - I am just talking about the ship looks - It is just a ball. Maybe it is just me....   :-/


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Chrispy on March 18, 2004, 08:41:26 pm
But its a big ball of fungus. Anyways, I can't think of anything that it was ripped from.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on March 19, 2004, 11:07:11 am
Why it must be ripped from somewhere else? Maybe Fred had a fungos in his feet and got the idea from it...  ::)


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Chrispy on March 19, 2004, 09:40:30 pm
Well ripped was the wrong word. I think many of the races were inspired by outside influence (not a bad thing) but I think that the mycon were purly creative.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: ShofixtiWithAK-47 on March 22, 2004, 02:06:20 am
So, let me get this straight, I'm sure most of this was already covered, but I didn't feel like reading the entire thread.

1) *Nnngh* are not the same as the parasites which the Arilou are hiding you from. I'm guessing the reason the Arilou don't want you to find out more about the *Nnnngh* is not because they are the parasites which seek to destroy humans, but maybe because they belong to the same dimension as the parasites, and seeking *Nnngh* would risk you getting seen. Arilou do tend to mention how curious humans are.

2) The Arilou warn humans about the Orz ONLY to avoid the chance of humans being discovered in this other dimension. The Arilou know that the Orz can travel within the same dimensions as them. Which thereby explains the Arilou "standing in the way". Maybe they also tried to save the Androsynth? Since the Orz, as we discovered, are playful creatures, perhaps that means they enjoy bringing *campers* into their true dimensions.

3) The concept of *fingers* is simple, correct? The Orz are not in true form in our dimension, they are simply a shadow of their true selves. Much as our shadow is 2 dimensions?

4) Of course the Arilou cannot morph anywhere they please. They can only manipulate weak areas in the interdimensional map. Maybe I'm wrong?

5) Maybe the cuts on Bukowski were only reflected onto his 3-dimensional shadow. Perhaps he was discovered, pulled into another dimension, but still remained the same figure in 3 dimensions. But how does that explain the missing Androsynth? The same way it explains the missing skin on Bukowski. Perhaps, much as the androsynth didn't want to leave the their dimension, maybe Bukowski fought to stay in as well, hence the yelling. When someone fighting to stay in their dimension dies, maybe their true form switches dimensions and their shadow disappears.

6) I remember the Melnorme talking about a race that would "frighten" us if we saw them. I'm thinking that perhaps the melnorme can switch dimensions as well. Which is also why they are so mysterious about their backround. Maybe the Androsynth and Bukowski are truly afraid of the a different dimension and it's creatures (who wouldn't be?).

7) Even if we do consider SC3 as a reliable source, it has nothing to do with what Bukowski saw. The Eternal1s couldn't possibly be interested in one human traversing interdimensional boundaries. They seek sentience from millions of races. Nothing more.

That's all for now.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: ShofixtiWithAK-47 on March 22, 2004, 03:58:31 am
Just so we're on the right page. I've been reading Orz/Arilou threads quite a bit lately, and everyone seems to be in agreement that the Androsynth are now in another dimension.

If I'm not mistaken, we're also all in agreement that 'them' saw the androsynth while they were working with IDF.

Allright, continuing what I was saying above, I beleive the Androsynth of course were *pulled* to the dimension that the parasites resided in. The only reason the Bukowski didn't die and disappear from reality entirely, was that the crew stopped him before he destroyed everything around him. I beleive this explains the reasoning behind the Androsynth's nuclear blasts. They wanted to kill themselves before 'them' *pulled* them out of existence entirely. Perhaps, the Orz aren't as intelligent as the Arilou, and we know they haven't observed humans for as long as the Arilou, so they thought they could help the Androsynth without exposing them even worse. Maybe the Orz gave 'them' enough information about the Androsynth, by alerting them to their *smell* and such, so that 'them' could catch a firm grip on the reality of the androsynth.

Most of this contradicts what I said above, but it's just another theory.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: ShofixtiWithAK-47 on March 22, 2004, 03:29:35 pm
I actually slept on this one. GREAT THREAD SLYLENDRO.

Anyways, I have another theory that might work. Maybe the Orz and 'them' once coexisted in another dimension. Maybe, perhaps, the Orz and 'them' are good friends? The Arilou sort of hint that the Orz are an evil race, and we all seem to think so. Or maybe they didn't know the difference with the Androsynth and exposed them to things they shouldn't be exposed to. The Arilou's "standing in front" could be the barrier between 'them', the Orz and the humans. But, perhaps the Orz's intentions aren't all bad. They do think that humans are *campers*.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: FalconMWC on March 22, 2004, 05:44:10 pm
ShofixtiWithAK-47: Try not double (or triple) post when you can - It is considered rude and there is a modify button.  ;)

Back-On-The-Topic-At-Hand: That is what was said earlier in the thread. The orz may not be bad. However when they attack and you kill them, you don't kill them. You only kill fingers so to speak. Well maybe the orz think about us the same way, except we can't do that.  






Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Terminator on March 22, 2004, 07:17:05 pm
Falcon can u stop that the button says "modify" not "edit" u confused me my first couple weeks by concisantly typing "edit" please use the correct term to avoid confusion. Please pardon my spelling my keyboard is starting to die on me.

TERMINATOR - the obnoxious one


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: FalconMWC on March 22, 2004, 07:22:41 pm
Problem modifed and fixed - Sorry about that Terminator.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: meep-eep on March 22, 2004, 08:37:58 pm
Quote
ShofixtiWithAK-47: Try not double (or triple) post when you can - It is considered rude and there is a modify button.  ;)

Considered rude by who? You'll only confuse people who already read a note if you modify it. If it's just a correction on a posting you just made, I'm all for it, but these are hours apart, and I tend to think having seperate notes works better.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: FalconMWC on March 22, 2004, 09:41:34 pm
That is what I have been told in my little forum experience. I did the same thing that Shofixti-With-A-AK-47 did and I was told that was rude. But you are a moderator.....

So, I am sorry Shofixti-With-A-AK-47.

 


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Chrispy on March 23, 2004, 01:36:10 am
I see no problem with double posting. Anything that will get the little new picture is good enough.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: ShofixtiWithAK-47 on March 23, 2004, 03:08:28 am
Ok, just making sure we're on the same page. But I did take a few things into consideration today. I actually thought about this a lot.

Some of this is a bit off-topic, maybe it was said in other threads. But a few questions I have come to mind.

1. The Melnorme and these creatures that 'frighten' you. What's the deal?

2. Can the Melnorme travel interdimensionally?

3. I realize that the creatures that 'frighten' you are definetely not the parasites, but are they linked somehow with IDF, or interdimensional travel.

Seriously, try to read all I wrote in the three 'rude' posts. I think most of it is legit.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: meep-eep on March 23, 2004, 05:11:26 am
Quote
That is what I have been told in my little forum experience. I did the same thing that Shofixti-With-A-AK-47 did and I was told that was rude. But you are a moderator.....

So, I am sorry Shofixti-With-A-AK-47.

You're sure those people weren't refering to "double posting" in the meaning of posting the same note multiple times?
Anyhow, I'm just telling you my opinion. I may be a moderator here, but this is by no means a rule.



Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Chrispy on March 23, 2004, 05:24:29 am
In some forums, if you click the send botton twice before the page loads you will get two posts exactly the same.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: ShofixtiWithAK-47 on March 23, 2004, 05:32:31 am
So, I don't mean to be a jerk or anything...but does anyone care at all about what I wrote? Or has all of this been talked to death already. I just don't think I fully understand the whole Orz/Androsynth thing. tell me if I'm wrong


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: FalconMWC on March 23, 2004, 05:37:10 am
Well shofixti with a ak 47 if you don't understand it then read the thread! - Yes, most of what you posted was already discussed.

Meep-eep - Yes, I am sure, if you want I can get a link for you....









Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: oneirotekt on July 10, 2004, 05:22:19 am
Some theories on the Orz, based on their words, avoiding excessive extrapolation where possible:

Quote
We are Orz! Orz are happy *people energy* from the outside.
Inside is good.


The Orz are from a dimension other than our own who have come here for an unknown (but, we can infer, vaguely sinister) purpose.  They are comparable to our concept of living, sentient beings.

Quote
*Time* is not one but many.
*Space* is many. *Colors* are many. You are so *sticky*.
You cannot *slide* like Orz from *outside* to *inside* and *in between*.


There are many dimensions other than our own, each with their own independent rules for time and space.  We (humans and our neighbors) are unique in that we do not move between the dimensions.

Quote
We are from *outside*. Also the Arilou *quick babies* are from *outside*.
It is the same, but not.
Orz are from *below*, Arilou are from *above*.


Both the Arilou (who are a much younger, shorter lived race compared to the ancient Orz) and Orz are from two different dimensions, the Arilou from a "higher order" dimension (presumably what we call Quasi-Space) directly above our own (if you visualize the multitude of dimensions as the floors of an office building) and the Orz from another directly beneath our own.

Quote
Better parties in *the middle* for sure.


*The Middle* might be another way of referring to our dimension, ie the one between *above* (the Arilou home dimension) and *below* (the Orz home dimension).

Quote
Here is *bright* and *smooth*. The other place is *hurt* Orz too much tired for keeping together.  Other place is **Frumple**


Our dimension is a more pleasant place to stay than where the Orz came from (possibly their native dimension), where (possibly) they must exert constant effort to simply maintain corporeal form.

Quote
That is *funny*. You think you *see* Orz but Orz are not *light reflections*.
Maybe you think Orz are *many bubbles* too. It is such a joke.
Orz are not *many bubbles* like *campers*. Orz are just Orz.
I am Orz. I am one with many *fingers*.
My *fingers* reach through into *heavy space* and you *see* *Orz bubbles*
but it is really *fingers*.


The Orz, in essence, are an immaterial presence - they're not made of matter (tiny bubbles = atoms) but they can project their presence(s) into our dimension (heavy space) and only thus have a material body we can see and talk to.  The "many fingers" statement, uttered in the singular first person, suggests that the actual entity "Orz" might be an individual, and every member of what we perceive as their "race" is a projection of this single entity.

Quote
Can you come together with Orz for *parties*?
Now you are a *happy camper* and Orz can give *heavy space* ships for *dancing*.


*Parties* and *dancing* almost certainly refer to general concepts of hostility, combat, fighting, destruction.  Heavy space ships are ships made of matter.

Quote
I am already telling the everything story. It is too much.
You do not asking about us the many.
Next it is the *party* and you will *become*.
It is best.
After this you are so *happy* you do not ask the many questions.
Do you anticipate? Yes! You do!
I am too *tired* the *silly* word *game*.

Do you want to see our surprising *toys*? No!! Do Not!!


The TFB guys did mention that they wanted the Orz to be more creepy than they ended up coming off as (which was sort of whimsical, if very weird) so you can generally read what they have to say as being very hostile and threatening.  Here they seem to be telling you not to ask any more questions... or they will become annoyed and attack you... and you will no longer be alive.

Quote
We are not *dead*. Orz is never *dead*.
Orz are not *dissolve*! Why is the *silly cow* say Orz are *dissolving*?


As the Orz bodies are only material projections, their destruction does not actually harm the Orz entity.  They view human death as "dissolving" because our souls are tied inextricably to our material bodies, and once the body dies the soul "dissolves".

Quote
Orz is thinking *silly cow* are want to *dance*.


*Silly* comes off as a supreme pejorative for the Orz.  Only utterly despised enemies are referred to as *silly cows*.

Disclaimers:

- The * * terms are not necessarily consistent, and it's probably better to think of them as evocative of general concepts rather than specific words.  Remember, the ship's translation logic is having a very difficult time rendering these words.

- There is no set answer for any of these questions, as the TFB guys were tactfully vague in many places, and probably didn't know 100% where they wanted to go with certain concepts anyway.  So while speculation is fun the point isn't necessarily to get anything concrete from it.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Sephlock on August 01, 2004, 04:25:38 pm
Quote
That was fast, and I meant that was why the Precursors left the first time. You know, 200,000 years ago, or whatever the date was.


An interesting idea, but the Orz do not seem all that powerful- sure, they're strong, but they are hardly a match for a Kohr ah (as is demonstrated if you let the game drag on for too long).  In order to accomplish much of anything, they'd have to get the 'smell' of their adversary, or have superior ships.

That said, even your lone, skeletal precursor service ship can prove itself to be more than a match for any number of Orz ships (provided you upgrade your crappy human technology).

For that matter, the Arilou do not seem all that powerful either... odd.

And if there were even greater forces out there, ones which the Precursors could not combat, then why wouldn't those forces have killed the Orz and Arilou?

For that matter, if the Precursors were fleeing some cataclysm, why wouldn't they have taken their poor, helpless buddies (the Slylandro) with them?  Surely they coulda rigged SOMETHING up...

Quote

And since I don't want to waste space random thought: Perhaps the Syreen was a branched experiment? They have powerful psychic abilities, humans don't really have much at all. The Arilou had two groups, both going for a different approach to their problem. The Syreen failed, perhaps because they grew to lazy, or their psychic abilities were making them harder to influence. Eventually, the Arilou decided to focus on guiding the humans.


This is a very intriguing idea.  The Kzer-Za/Kohr-Ah come to mind, as do the Pkunk/Yehat, and, though its a bit of a stretch,  ZoqFotPik, and the Supox/Utwig.

Quote

My memory is a bit failed on the timeline, but this might have to do with the sudden burst of activity by the Arilou in the 1940s era. I'm not sure when the Syreen got kicked off by the Mycon, but it might have been relatively soon after the burst of Earth activity and/or when the Syreen were abandoned.


One would think, though, that the Arilou would have a history of meddling with the Syreen as well as the Humans- yet we never see any indication of this.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Sander Scamper on August 01, 2004, 08:15:35 pm
Almost any ship can defeat any other ship in the hands of a skilled captain.
(exceptions like human/chmmr spring to mind, impossible.)

As for the Slylandro, it depends.
The Slylandro are EXPERTLY hidden, almost impossible to find unless you know what to look for.
They're pretty much indestructable from what i know, theyre made of gas.
If the Precursors COULD have taken them, Why?? It would only make the Slylandro bigger targets/more vulnerable.

The Slylandro probably werent at risk, the Precursors obviously were.

The Zot-Fot-Pik are completely different species, as are the Utwig/Supox. They are just on very good terms.

The Kzer-Za and Kohr-Ah were split genetically by the Dynarri, and this occured one hell of a long time ago (16000 years?).

The Yehat and the Pkunk might have been such a case, but it seems unlikely, to me.

Personally, i think that the Syreen are a huge, hilarious consequece, that opens up a really cool sequel plot. Hot, Syreen Alien Gratuitous Sex Scenes!


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Sephlock on August 01, 2004, 09:00:12 pm
They aren't invincible- in fact, if you talk to them you will hear of a ritual in which they go really high in their atmosphere, until they almost 'burst', then come back down.  The scars are supposed to attract comely mates.

As for the other part of your message, I didn't mean that all those races were exactly the same, just that they had similiarities, if only in spirit.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Death 999 on August 02, 2004, 09:41:12 pm
The Slylandro aren't invincible, obviously... but they are well hidden. Only the Precursors, Ur-Quan, and Melnorme visited them, and of the others only the Arilou knew of their existence.

(oh, right, melnorme)


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: FalconMWC on August 03, 2004, 04:03:55 am
Even the player could not have found them had the probes not happened.....


Makes you wonder about the other planets....


**Goes a searchs all of them

Nope....
;)


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Sander Scamper on August 03, 2004, 03:43:34 pm
The opposite is true, when they go low, the 'pressure' almost ruptures their 'skin' membrane, producing the attractive scars. When they go higher they behave inappropriately.
And how do we know its physical harm? It could be that they need a certain atmosphere to breath in, whereas higher up its not as common, so they get dizzy. Whereas the deeper areas possess heavier poisonous gas.
How do we know how big they are? Maybe they are Sentient Microscopic organisms?


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Art on August 03, 2004, 04:54:04 pm
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The opposite is true, when they go low, the 'pressure' almost ruptures their 'skin' membrane, producing the attractive scars. When they go higher they behave inappropriately.
And how do we know its physical harm? It could be that they need a certain atmosphere to breath in, whereas higher up its not as common, so they get dizzy. Whereas the deeper areas possess heavier poisonous gas.
How do we know how big they are? Maybe they are Sentient Microscopic organisms?


Well, to be serious about it, sentient microorganisms are a tough concept (IGNORE STAR CONTROL 3 AND MY KEEL-VEREZEY POST). Yes, you can fit a powerful computer on a tiny chip, but life processes created by evolution are necessarily less efficient and require more redundancies to survive in the long term than computers we manufacture; the human brain's structure is in some ways a lot more complex than a computer's, and that complexity comes from the bundled-up neurons that have to be a certain size to function.

You probably could have a human-like intelligence in something the size of a rabbit or a badger or something, but my impression was that, say, intelligent individual earthworms are really unlikely, and truly intelligent-the-way-humans-are-intelligent bacteria or viruses are impossible. But then, there are more things in heaven and earth...

But just solely based on the fact that your ship can see the Slylandro without the Slylandro having any communicators or radios to beam their images to you from Source, and the fact that Slylandro last a very long time without dying (which tends to require that something have a lot of mass for redundant systems) and that they can swim far enough up and down in Source for there to be noticeable pressure differentials, and that "gasbag" puts me in mind of both hot-air balloons and overweight politicians, I tend to think of Slylandro as big. Maybe room-sized, paper-thin hollow membranes with the weird flimsy glowing bits growing out of their insides. Like big balloons, and they'd be dependent on the pressure scales of Source to stay *intact*, much less alive -- lifting them out into space would probably cause them to dissipate into vapor, and figuring out how to prevent that would probably be too much of a headache even for the Precursors.

And yeah, there really is no reason to assume whatever the Precursors ran away from was a threat to the Slylandro. The Precursors were, after all, a gigantic galaxy-spanning supertechnological civilization that messed with a whole lot of things and left a lot of amazing laws-of-physics breaking gadgets around, while the Slylandro are a kind and curious gasbag people who have no technology, no spaceships and no real desire to do anything but sit and listen to people tell stories. What the Precursors were afraid of was probably something caused by something to do with their status as godlike rulers of the galaxy, not some mindless threat out to mess with all sentient life forms everywhere, as Star Control 3 naively assumes.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Art on August 03, 2004, 05:15:08 pm
Re Syreen and Humans:

I'm pretty sure it's Humans who are the messed-with ones and Syreen the un-messed-with, for whatever reason (Syreen are a control group; Syreen are descendants of Humans accidentally left on Syra by careless Arilou UFOs; Humans are Syreen kidnapped and taken by the Arilou to start a new species on Earth; etc.)

Humans have an unusual level of technology for their degree of cultural advancement, at least in the opinion of the SC1 Ur-Quan, who find them to be shockingly backward culturally, despite the fact that we know the Alliance is completely dependent on Earth's industry to keep it afloat. Also, Humans passed through two centuries of their "atomic age" without inventing the trappings of spacefaring like hyperwave broadcasts, hyperdrive, and so on. Everyone else seems to equate being spacefaring with being in the atomic age. Human nuclear weapons, after all, pack enough punch to be effective against other races' ships; Humans may lack some exotic knowledge, but they are advanced enough to be seriously important in the war, and yet before the Chenjesu talk to them they don't have things that races like the Spathi developed as a matter of course -- *everyone* has hyperdrive, even the endlessly warring Ilwrath and the nuke-ourselves-every-Tuesday Thraddash, and hyperwave is simple enough that the Chenjesu develop it as the result of natural crystal processes, yet Humans have not a clue about it. And it's a special and particular exception; in all other ways Humans are advanced enough to be a powerful race for the Home Sector. The Yehat consider Humans to be a natural race like them, completely non-uplifted, and respect them greatly for it, even though hyperwave and hyperdrive were both free gifts by the Chenjesu.

Having a race that's unusually technologically advanced for its level -- becoming the backbone of the Alliance on the resources of *one star system* -- yet that completely fails to develop one particular kind of technology, spacefaring technology, on its own is a weird coincidence. I'm pretty convinced the Arilou were trying to speed up Human technological development while blocking them from outside interference by the rest of the galaxy. There definitely was a lot of interest in the Humans' unique potential, judging by the SC1 manual's description of the aliens' anticipation of first contact with Humans. Maybe they were puzzled that Humans never progressed beyond radio, never communicated by Hyperwave or sent probes through hyperspace, until the Chenjesu finally forced the issue out of desperation. Who knows?

I think this also has something to do with the puzzling lack of psi in Humans compared to Syreen. Psi abilities are natural in *both* species -- psi-capable Humans are common enough that there's a standard test for them, and two random crewmen in one random expedition are both powerful potential psionics. Yet the power *remains* potential. Syreen society seems to be based on the manipulation of psionics; they have hypnosis and other forms of persuasion, clumsy tools in the Human world, developed to a science, and we receive repeated reminders about how Syreen society is built around negotiation and persuasion rather than conflict and force. I think for them psi is a natural, subtle weapon used in daily life, the main weapon they use against their enemies and the main reason (besides their high-quality physiology) they're so darn seductive to Humans -- they have no particular questions or qualms about it that we can see.

So how come Human encounters with psi are clouded by superstition and ritual, surrounded by doubt and disbelief, and largely on the fringe of Human society all through Humanity's modern age? How come Humans never learn to use psi?

I think because of the structure of Human society (that whole raider vs. farmer thing). More than that, the recent structure of Human society, highly technological and industrial, that particularly suppresses close human interaction and empathy. There's many a science fiction story about how humans' combat and warfare causes us to develop (metaphorical or real and supernatural) psychic shields against each other's thoughts and feelings.

What if that's intentional? What if there are dangerous beings out there, and the Arilou have for most of our history been steering us away from them by teaching how to shut out ESP and telepathy, by making a society that doesn't show us how to *look* where we ought not *see*?

My tentative theory: The Syreen's development is just a lot slower than Humans'. They attract no undue attention before the war, and only become part of the Alliance because of their narrow escape from death at the Mycons' hands; they probably ended up with the Alliance mainly because of their powerful effect on Humans. They're the natural state of Humans, what Humans should've been; a slowly industrializing, friendly, noncompetitive, non-ambitious race. No wonder we think of their world as Eden.

We are Syreen who have been pushed in a certain direction. Pushed to expand and grow and stretch. Any wonder that Arilou interference steps up during the 1950s? They wait until the right moment and begin pushing, doing more experiments, just at the time that we begin exploring space, building industry, becoming powerful. They want us to grow into a mighty spacefaring race but... in a certain way.

Why are the Androsynth the ones taken, and not Syreen or Humans? Maybe because the Arilou want a species with a certain potential -- a certain ability to perceive the extra dimensions. Maybe none of the other races in the area really has it or if they do they don't have other qualities the Arilou need (like the Pkunk, who are hardwired to be a milion times more cloistered and unambitious and peaceful than the Syreen). Maybe the ability is safe as long as it's weak and channeled properly -- maybe (borrowing from sf and fantasy) it's not dangerous if you don't have an ambitious or tainted mind, a mind that attracts dark thoughts and desires for power and such. Leaving the Pkunk and Syreen safe as long as they stay content.

But if the Arilou want to push their children to become great and mighty, on the path to becoming something (who knows? Their successors?) then they take the risk that the groping, questing, power-hungry Humans will encounter Them. So during Humans' growth phase they work especially hard to fight against Humans' use of psi power (hence a correlation between industrialization and widespread skepticism about ESP and stuff). The Androsynth are under no such protection, and have all the problems of Humanity multiplied: They're perfectionists, they see themselves as a superior race worthy of power, they seek power as protection from the prospect of reenslavement. And they have increased IQ and strength and probably increased psi potential too. No wonder they got picked up by Them so fast.

Just tenuous theories, but my two cents.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Bobucles on August 03, 2004, 06:20:08 pm
Man, Art, you know Star Control down to an... art.  ;D

The Arilou influence could explain why us Humans never got around to hyperspace. It'd be the first step to looking for Them, and there was no way we could survive if we did find Them. Most likely, the Arilou supressed that technology as long as they could, building up Earth and its industry as much as possible, until the Chenjesu simply gave it to us.

Space travel requires a ton of resources. Colonies often need way more resources than they could give back, and space ships have big upkeep costs to go with them. Without hyperspace, though, we couldn't spend our resources on space travel. The next best place to put them was in more industry, which increased Earth's potential even more. I bet the Arilou let that cycle continue for as long as they could, so when we did get into hyperspace, we'd have a big head start.

One thing I noticed, is that the Ur-Quan burn everything over 500 years old. Yet, most of Earth development is nowhere near that old. What if that was done on purpose? A slow and steady growth would leave many places old enough to be destroyed in the rains of fire. But if you have a sudden explosion in development, the Ur-Quan would leave most of it intact. Commander Hayes did mention that most of the US was unaffected by the rains of fire, which means that Earth still had a large industrial power at its command. When that slave shield goes down, Earth will still be just as powerful as the day before it was enslaved.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: meep-eep on August 04, 2004, 12:41:58 am
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and the fact that Slylandro last a very long time without dying (which tends to require that something have a lot of mass for redundant systems)

I don't see that. You can achieve long life span by making sure damaged systems are repaired before they fail, and protect systems from being damaged at all.
Repairing damaged systems before they fail requires some redundancy, but not much more than what humans have, unless you get lots of external damage. But where the Slylandro live there isn't much that can externally damage them.

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Like big balloons, and they'd be dependent on the pressure scales of Source to stay *intact*, much less alive -- lifting them out into space would probably cause them to dissipate into vapor, and figuring out how to prevent that would probably be too much of a headache even for the Precursors.

All that is needed is a capsule that can withstand a presure in which a Slylandro can contiously live. The layer of the gas giant which houses the Slylandro is the outer 500 km of the atmosphere of Source. It doesn't seem unlikely to me that the Slylandro can live in an almost earthlike pressure. I would bet that humans even today could build a capsule that could house a Slylandro. (Of course "house" does not only mean "contain", there should also be some way to feed them and to get rid of waste, but I don't think that will be beyond human capabilities.)
I suspect getting a capsule in and back out would be trickier. A long sturdy cable and something to keep the capsule stable in the wind should do the trick. The Precursors shouldn't have much problems with that.
A larger problem may be to get all Slylandro of the planet, if there are many of them. They would need a lot of ships or really big ships, or a lot of time. Say they can handle 1000 Slylandro per (Earth) hour. That would take them about one Earth year to evacuate 10 million Slylandro.

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What the Precursors were afraid of was probably something caused by something to do with their status as godlike rulers of the galaxy

What is this theory based on? And why do you think this is so probable?



Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: taleden on August 04, 2004, 10:21:56 am
Love the thread - figured I'd seed some more ideas, see what sprouts.  oneirotekt's post has a nice big variety of topics in it, so it's convenient for me to just reply to everything he said as a way of introducing my own ideas - I don't mean to attack them specifically, so I hope it doesn't come off that way.  To the contrary, I picked that post to respond to cuz it has lots of good ideas for me to build on.  :)

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The Orz are from a dimension other than our own who have come here for an unknown (but, we can infer, vaguely sinister) purpose.  They are comparable to our concept of living, sentient beings.


As you comment further on, most people seem to like the interpretation of the Orz as a single sentient being with multiple projections into this dimension.  As such, Orz is a singular sentient being (rather than many sentient beings), but whether there are other Orz's (i.e. other sentient organisms of the same 'species' as Orz), or whether Orz is a singular and unique phenomenon, is open to speculation.  Also, I don't think Orz exactly 'came here', since I don't think it really 'left' wherever it was before - it seems more like it is now here in addition to wherever it was before, and may at any time be in lots and lots of places at once, spanning multiple dimensions.  I agree, though, that Orz's agenda in this dimension seems vaguely sinister, and I like that phrasing.  :)

But, there is ample room for variation just within this interpretation: for example, maybe the projections are like different fingers (i.e. they know they're all parts of one organism and work together), or maybe they're more like different echos/reflections (i.e. something about the nature of interdimensionality causes the single Orz entity to be 'reflected' multiple times in this reality), in that each individual 'finger' doesn't think of the other 'fingers' as separate from itself - it is aware of the fact that its presence is fractured and echoed in this dimension, but it relates to itself the way we would relate to all our reflections in a house of mirrors.  We can see what look like lots of copies of us, but we know the other ones are all false.  Orz's speech (such as using 'we') doesn't really support either of these interpretations, but then again, Orz speech can't be taken literally anyway.

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There are many dimensions other than our own, each with their own independent rules for time and space.  We (humans and our neighbors) are unique in that we do not move between the dimensions.


I don't think there's any reason to conclude that the races in our dimension are 'unique' in our inability to travel between dimensions - it seems just as likely that the races in our dimension (that we know about, who knows what's in other galaxies) are all too young to have figured that out yet.  What's more, some of our neighbors (to use the term slightly more broadly, time-wise) - specifically, the Androsynth and the Taalo - DO seem to have figured out how to move between dimensions, and this advancement then led to the ultimate fate of both of these races (whatever that may have been).

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Both the Arilou (who are a much younger, shorter lived race compared to the ancient Orz) and Orz are from two different dimensions...


Who says the Orz are older than the Arilou?  For that matter, who says it even makes sense to talk about the 'age' of an interdimensional species?  As you've already commented, each dimension could easily have completely different rules of physics and temporality - the idea of 'age' almost definitely doesn't translate very direactly between dimensions.

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... the Arilou from a "higher order" dimension (presumably what we call Quasi-Space) directly above our own (if you visualize the multitude of dimensions as the floors of an office building) and the Orz from another directly beneath our own.

*The Middle* might be another way of referring to our dimension, ie the one between *above* (the Arilou home dimension) and *below* (the Orz home dimension).


I think this is the topic on which I disagree most with that seems to be the dominant interpretation of multidimensionality that I've seen expressed in this thread, so forgive me if I get a little longwinded here.  Although the best-fit terms (*above*, *below*, *middle*) seem to suggest it, I think visualizing the dimensions as a linear 'stack' like an office building is not the right way to think about it.  Multidimensionality doesn't necessarily just mean adding an axis to everything, such that any given location in spacetime (3 spacial coordinates, 1 temporal coordinate) in our dimension has a counterpart in all the other dimensions (by adding a dimension coordinate) - that implies way too much linearity (i.e. the idea of one dimension having exactly two neighbors, one in each direction).  I think it's much more interesting and plausible to think of multiple dimensions as far, far more complex phenomenon; linkages between the dimensions are not a simple matter of finding a way to change your dimensional coordinate, but rather involve a very convoluted process of translating what passes for matter and energy in our dimensions into an equivalent sort of 'existence' in another dimension, and this is why natural portals are so rare and interdimensional travel seems to be one of the last things a sentient race ever figures out.  To anticipate a counterpoint, it is true that Hyperspace and Quasispace seem to have very similar laws of physics (i.e. the fact that you ship can 'go' there and look pretty much the same, the fact that you can fly around in those places the way we fly around in truespace, etc) doesn't mean that other dimensions are also similar: maybe the reason we use those dimensions as clever means of travel is because they happen to be two of the few that _are_ similar enough to serve that purpose.  As such, sentient races figure out Hyperspace pretty quickly, and probably figure out Quasispace not too long after that, but figuring out how to interact with 'less similar' dimensions, as the Taalo and Androsynth presumably did, takes more work.

This has some interesting implications for a lot of other topics in this thread.  For example, the idea of interdimensional beings *smell*ing eachother becomes more complex - if the dimensions were all stacked up neatly one on top of the other, it seems like a relatively simple matter to just travel from one to the next looking for life forms.  Also, under such an interpretation, why would *They* need to *smell* a life form in order to get to it, and having *smell*ed it, why would *They* be able to access it so immediately?  Getting from wherever *They* are to our dimension would have to involve traveling through all the dimensions in between, and if they were that close to us in the stack, wouldn't they have found us already anyway?

I think it's better to think of interdimensionality involving several axes, maybe a huge or even infinite number: you can go 'up' and 'down' through dimensions, but maybe you could also go sideways, forward, backward, inside, outside, around, ana and kata (for anyone who's read the scifi book I'm taking that from but can't remember tha name of), etc etc.  In that case, finding something in interdimensional space is like finding something in single dimensional space: we would never have found the Slylandro if nobody had told us where to look.  The Ur-Quan would never have found any of its victims if they hadn't traced their hyperwave broadcasts back to them.  Similarly, *They* can only really find a race in interdimensional space if that race does something that penetrates interdimensional space, like start opening portals (which might create some kind of interdimensional reverberation that could be detected and pinpointed).

Then, the Arilou's efforts with humans becomes something like putting up a hyperwave shield around a planet: if the hyperwave transmissions, which are detectable, are blocked, nobody has any reason to look at that planet so nobody ever does, and the inhabitants become basically 'invisible' to someone like the Ur-Quan.  Similarly, if the Arilou tampered with humans to dampen or eliminate anything in our existence which might have 'reverberated' interdimensionally, that prevents *Them* from pinpointing us.

In fact, multidimensionality probably isn't even as simple as thinking of more axes along which to travel between dimensions: if getting from another dimension to this one was the hard part, and getting around within one dimension was the easy part, then why haven't *They* devoured everything in this dimension?  They clearly know this dimension exists and even know how to find it, since *They* either came here to eat the Androsynth or else caused the Androsynth to move to *Them* - but if *They* could do that, why wouldn't they do it to everyone else in this dimension, too?  Why would they need to *smell* each race separately in order to get to them, even if they're all in the same dimension?

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As the Orz bodies are only material projections, their destruction does not actually harm the Orz entity.  They view human death as "dissolving" because our souls are tied inextricably to our material bodies, and once the body dies the soul "dissolves".


I don't necessarily agree.  People seem to like this interpretation because it allows them to take the next step and point out that Orz might not realize that destroying our ships actually does hurt (and in fact permenantly destroys) sentient beings.  I don't like this interpretation, first of all because we never specified what kind of 'projection' of Orz it is that we see; if they're literally like 'fingers' that 'poke through' into our dimension but share some kind of connection to the 'true' Orz, then wouldn't it hurt a little to cut those fingers off?  It is possible that the projections are more like holograms - something that we can perceive and allows us to interact with the Orz, but which is not 'real' and does not have any impact on the 'true' Orz.  But even if this is the case, it seems plausible (from other things Orz says) that Orz understands that *dancing* in *heavy space* is actually bad for, and hurts, the people who live in *heavy space*.  If it didn't think that, why would it threaten to *dance* with us in order to get us to stop doing something it doesn't like, such as ask about the Androsynth?

Some other random comments:

I agree with a previous poster that the Taalo probably met Orz in another dimension, after the Taalo figured out IDF.  But has anyone in the SC2 universe ever expressed concern that the Taalo might have fallen prey to *Them*?  If the Taalo have been galavanting around between dimensions, it seems that they would have almost definitely encountered *Them*, since the Androsynth had only just begin to poke a few holes when *They* immediately came and wiped them out.  So if the Taalo were somehow not vulnerable to *Them*, how come?  Maybe it has something to do with the Taalo's other precularity - their psionic ability.  If the Taalo were a species whose consciousness was such that psionic ability was second nature, maybe that also protects them from *Them*?  (That sounds convoluted, I know)  Maybe *They* 'eat' species not in a physical or literal way, but in a psychic way - like 'eat'ing their souls, and it only works if the prey can't protect itself psionically.  On the other hand, if that were true, it seems like the Arilou would have encouraged psionic ability in Humans to enable us to protect ourselves, and that doesn't seem to be the case.  On the other other hand, maybe the Taalo were, in fact, devoured by *Them*, and we just never heard about it.  Or maybe we did and I'm just forgetting it.

Why do the Rainbow Worlds point to the Galactic Core?  A random idea here, and in a way similar to and derived from the explanation in SC3, but maybe the Precursors were also trying to protect the future inhabitants of this galaxy from *Them*.  Modern physics suggests that there are probably supermassive black holes at the center of most galaxies, maybe even lots of them; singularities of that magnitude might be the sort of thing that would cause natural interdimensional weaknesses, and maybe that is a point of 'close contact' to other dimensions, where *They* are.  In that case, the galactic core would be one of the places where *They* could 'see' into this dimension and possibly *smell* if anyone interesting lived here - what if the Rainbow Worlds were made to shield us from that 'sight'?  If the Precursors found some inanimate material (like the hyper-radioactive whateveritis that the RWs are made of) which was capable of masking our presence - our *smell* - from *Them*, it would make sense to orient that shield toward the place where *They* would be looking from, which would be the galactic core.

Along those lines, maybe the Precursors ultimate destination wasn't another dimension, but rather extinction: maybe the Precursors attracted the attention of *Them* and were just as vulnerable as the Androsynth.  Knowing that *They* were coming, and not wanting to put other life in this galaxy at risk, maybe the Precursors set up the Rainbow Worlds to mask our *smell* and then went somewhere else in order to draw *Them* away from us; when *They* caught up to the Precursors and devoured them, at least *They* didn't also catch wind of the other life in this galaxy in the process.  It would seem in line with the Precursor's noble image to sacrifice themselves to protect fledgling life.

If you actually read this whole post, I admire you.  Sorry to be so longwinded, I talk alot when I get excited.  :)


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Art on August 04, 2004, 12:55:10 pm
 
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I don't see that. You can achieve long life span by making sure damaged systems are repaired before they fail, and protect systems from being damaged at all.
Repairing damaged systems before they fail requires some redundancy, but not much more than what humans have, unless you get lots of external damage. But where the Slylandro live there isn't much that can externally damage them.


Well, there's no proof of Slylandro size one way or the other -- but I find them easier to imagine as room-sized than microorganism-sized. They would need *at least* human levels of redundancy to survive, and that kind of complexity is probably impossible at the microorganism level, as is sentience.

But Source life is radically different in pretty much every way from Earth life, so I won't push it. Nonetheless there should be room for common sense estimates even in science fiction, and one of the things we do know about Slylandro is that they're evolved from predators, which means they had to physically surround, overpower and consume other life forms. That implies they're probably not tiny for Source life. The immense length of their memories, and the fact that even on Source physical laws are the same as on Earth, means that there's a physical limit to how small they can be and still retain data encompassing lifespans measured in Drahn. And the efficiency of whatever system they use to store memories shouldn't be miraculously high -- in order to develop randomly through evolution organic systems like brains are always cruder and more robust and therefore take up more space than artificial systems like computers.

The analogy I always had in my mind for Slylandro was deep-sea creatures. And the intelligent top-of-the-food-chain species in the ocean do tend to a larger size than similar animals on land; in a buoyant environment the costs of being big (having to support yourself against gravity, losing manueverability and speed) are weakened and the benefits remain the same or greater. If anything, the pressure within a gas giant is a lot *greater* than the pressure in the Earth's ocean. It gives the Slylandro more reason to be big, since support structures in general are going to have to be larger and contain more redundancies not to be crushed by random movements in the ambient medium. There's a reason that the idea of the gigantic gasbag is familiar; it's been done in a few other science fiction stories before, and the native inhabitants of Jupiter or wherever do tend to be described as enormous in scale, because a life form that can survive the titanic energies in a gas giant is more believable as large than small. (Never mind that, although we don't know what sensors the Precursors or the Melnorme had, for them to be detectable inside the maelstrom of a gas giant they'd probably have to be pretty large and noticeable.) To the Slylandro their environment is boring, because they're adapted to it and have long since killed off their natural enemies, but the medium they live in is one that would utterly destroy the Vindicator if it flew into it because of the sheer kinetic energy, discarding concerns about heat or radiation or active chemicals. Gas giants play around with a lot more power on the inside than *any* rocky world does, and I'd imagine Slylandro would have to be a lot more physically robust than a human just to live. They wouldn't be aware of it any more than we're aware of the complex processes that allow us to survive on a planet with gravity and atmosphere that would probably annihilate anything that grew up on the surface of an asteroid.

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Like big balloons, and they'd be dependent on the pressure scales of Source to stay *intact*, much less alive -- lifting them out into space would probably cause them to dissipate into vapor, and figuring out how to prevent that would probably be too much of a headache even for the Precursors.

All that is needed is a capsule that can withstand a presure in which a Slylandro can contiously live. The layer of the gas giant which houses the Slylandro is the outer 500 km of the atmosphere of Source. It doesn't seem unlikely to me that the Slylandro can live in an almost earthlike pressure. I would bet that humans even today could build a capsule that could house a Slylandro. (Of course "house" does not only mean "contain", there should also be some way to feed them and to get rid of waste, but I don't think that will be beyond human capabilities.)
I suspect getting a capsule in and back out would be trickier. A long sturdy cable and something to keep the capsule stable in the wind should do the trick. The Precursors shouldn't have much problems with that.
A larger problem may be to get all Slylandro of the planet, if there are many of them. They would need a lot of ships or really big ships, or a lot of time. Say they can handle 1000 Slylandro per (Earth) hour. That would take them about one Earth year to evacuate 10 million Slylandro.


Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it's the *first* 500 km of the gas giant's atmosphere. It's *a* 500-km pressure zone that's safe for them to move around in, but it's still safely inside the atmosphere of the planet. Moving into "The Void" only slowly decreases their ability to think clearly and maintain their inhibitions as they ascend, rather than killing them. Since we know they can't survive outside of Source, this means that entering the Void isn't the same thing as leaving Source, and entering the Void is more like going up to Mount Everest and getting low-oxygen giddiness for humans than leaving the Earth's atmosphere (which goes on for quite a ways beyond Everest levels).

And I find it just plain unbelievable that you can get sentient life from a gasbag whose internal pressure is no more than 1 atmosphere. Life processes require a certain amount of density of the chemicals involved in order for there to be a certain rate of chemical reactions that allows life processes. If chemicals are too sparse or too rarefied, life can't survive, or life only survives in very small and simple ways. Hence Earth life depends on the properties of liquid water and the large amounts of different light compounds it can hold in solution in order to function -- hence all  cells are made of colloidal compounds based on water. For the Slylandro to have complexity like ours they have to have a medium like that, some rich soup of highly pressurized gases. A medium as rarefied as our *own* atmosphere is really unlikely to have lots of active compounds close enough to each other to start creating self-sustaining chemical processes. Earth's atmosphere dissipates too fast, lets gases separate quickly without reacting with each other -- almost everything important we take from the air must be dissolved in water before it's in a form useful to life. This is why aspiring xenologists barely bother to speculate about finding life forms as giant gas clouds on Mars or Venus or Titan; if there isn't a liquid medium or the equivalent (and superpressurized gas inside a gas giant is an equivalent) then it's not worth looking for life as we know it.

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What the Precursors were afraid of was probably something caused by something to do with their status as godlike rulers of the galaxy

What is this theory based on? And why do you think this is so probable?


Occam's Razor. There are a lot of things that make the Precursors special other than the fact that they're very ancient sentient life forms. It seems kind of much to assume that whatever they were afraid of had to be some kind of universal threat, rather than something specific to the Precursors themselves. For all we know it could've been something irrelevant to *anything* we know about the Precursors -- maybe a deadly disease that affected Precursor biology, or the depletion of some resource Precursor technology and only Precursor technology depended on. But if we have to assume something, it doesn't make sense to assume that the problems of a race as unique and powerful as the Precursors were some sort of threat to All Sentient Life Everywhere.

That's the route Star Control 3 took, and it's not necessarily a *bad* route -- I don't mind the general idea of the Eternal Ones as a plot device. But there's no reason it has to be true if SC3 isn't canon, and *certainly* no reason based on SC2. Certainly the fact that the Slylandro remained unmolested, while it's not proof of much, is weak evidence against the idea, as is the puzzle of how old the seemingly ancient Arilou are allowed to be. And the Precursors' reign was so long ago that lack of evidence about their contemporaries really says nothing much -- it's doubtful that a race that wasn't as powerful as the Precursors could leave enough artifacts that would last long enough for us to know anything about them this many years later. Frankly I think it's a lot more likely that the Precursors ran into a resource crisis because of the unprecedented size of their empire than that huge godlike beings who want to absorb all sentient life offed them and are now after us pitiful humans too, even if the latter idea is cooler and a better idea for a sequel. (And if that becomes our standard for what's "likely" in the Star Control universe, well...)


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Art on August 04, 2004, 01:09:38 pm
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The opposite is true, when they go low, the 'pressure' almost ruptures their 'skin' membrane, producing the attractive scars. When they go higher they behave inappropriately.
And how do we know its physical harm? It could be that they need a certain atmosphere to breath in, whereas higher up its not as common, so they get dizzy. Whereas the deeper areas possess heavier poisonous gas.


They specifically tell us the damage to their bodies from entering the Depths is in the form of physical scars on their gasbags caused by the pressure rupturing their bodies. They don't mention suffocation or poisoning, just the physical effort of staying down there as the challenge of going into the Depths. That's not to say that, since the atmosphere of a gas giant is likely to be somewhat chaotic, leaving the safe zone wouldn't impose chemical dangers as well as physical ones, but since they are relatively delicate gas bags the pressure thing is a big deal.

I don't think going into the Void is the same thing as going into space -- just because it's thin air for them that makes them get woozy doesn't mean that they're anywhere close to actually leaving the planet at that point. And since they probably are heavily dependent on particular chemicals in the gas to survive, it's quite likely that a slowly ascending Slylandro would suffocate before he popped, just like if you were slowly pulled up off the ground by an airplane you'd probably pass out due to oxygen sickness before anything else happened to you..

But that doesn't mean the pressure of completely leaving your planet for the void of space is no big deal. It's a big deal for *humans*, whose lungs and joints will pop if you take them into space (why else would we spring for expensive pressure suits for astronauts rather than just giving them scuba tanks and masks?). Even if your blood oxygen was constantly being replenished, the difference between one and zero atmospheres would do a lot of harm to your body if you found yourself in space. And the Slylandro most definitely live at pressures much higher than Earth's air, or maybe even Earth's oceans -- even the upper layers of Jupiter register hundreds of atmospheres. There's no way space wouldn't make them pop, and the cost of building a capsule that could hold that much pressure inside of it would be an immense engineering problem, even if the Precursors, say, had the knowhow to do it.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Art on August 04, 2004, 03:01:42 pm
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Who says the Orz are older than the Arilou?  For that matter, who says it even makes sense to talk about the 'age' of an interdimensional species?  As you've already commented, each dimension could easily have completely different rules of physics and temporality - the idea of 'age' almost definitely doesn't translate very direactly between dimensions.


Yes, it's tough monkeying around with Orz linguistic best-fits, but I would argue there is significance in calling the Arilou *quick babies*. The idea implies that both in the timescale they operate on and the total time of their existence the Arilou are on a lower level than the Orz, at least from the Orz's point of view. Of course babies may imply maturity level or sophistication or power rather than age -- it's interesting that the Orz call Arilou *babies* and other species *silly cows* and *sad animals*. Babies are infinitely weaker and stupider and less capable than adults, but they're the same kind of thing as an adult human being and we value them the same way we value adult human beings. The difference between human infants and animals, infant or adult, is one of kind, not age. Interesting.

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As you comment further on, most people seem to like the interpretation of the Orz as a single sentient being with multiple projections into this dimension.  As such, Orz is a singular sentient being (rather than many sentient beings), but whether there are other Orz's (i.e. other sentient organisms of the same 'species' as Orz), or whether Orz is a singular and unique phenomenon, is open to speculation.


As far as whether there are other Orz... I think the *cousins* reference is to Orz-like things that aren't Orz, though whether they're distinct the way we'd think of one human as being distinct from another is questionable. But if you think of all the connotations the word "cousin" has and why the computer might have picked it as a best-fit, it makes sense -- a cousin is someone related to you, kind of like you, but someone who lives somewhere else and has a different family and doesn't share your line of descent. Also interesting is that the Orz reports you to the *cousins* when you become a *camper* and says the *cousins* want to *join* you, when none of the Orz *join* you themselves.

I think it may be that the Orz for whatever reason can't do to you what they did to the Androsynth, but they leave the possibility open someone else might, and the someone else just hasn't arrived yet. Ooh, sequel possibility.

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I think this is the topic on which I disagree most with that seems to be the dominant interpretation of multidimensionality that I've seen expressed in this thread, so forgive me if I get a little longwinded here.  Although the best-fit terms (*above*, *below*, *middle*) seem to suggest it, I think visualizing the dimensions as a linear 'stack' like an office building is not the right way to think about it.  Multidimensionality doesn't necessarily just mean adding an axis to everything, such that any given location in spacetime (3 spacial coordinates, 1 temporal coordinate) in our dimension has a counterpart in all the other dimensions (by adding a dimension coordinate) - that implies way too much linearity (i.e. the idea of one dimension having exactly two neighbors, one in each direction).


Oh sure. There's absolutely no reason to think that all the other-dimensional spaces we can access are all the ones there are. And one-to-one correspondences between the spaces obviously seems unlikely, because distances are greatly compressed between the different spaces and the shape of space is radically twisted and bent as you go from one to the next. QuasiSpace portals' layout bear no relationship to their counterparts in Hyperspace, and we're told that the layout of the Hyperspatial Home Sector is a greatly distorted version of what those same stars look like in TrueSpace. Who knows? It's possible that in TrueSpace Sol and the star given the Hyperspace Astrogation designation "Algol" (which is a totally different star from the star we TrueSpace astronomers call Algol) are neighbors while the star called "Sirius" is hundreds of lightyears away. You can't tell from Hyperspace, nor do you care, because traveling even a few lightyears in TrueSpace from star to star is utterly impossible.

Still, I think that while Hyperspace is distorted from TrueSpace it's probably not seriously distorted the way QuasiSpace is from Hyperspace -- in Hyperspace the Galaxy is still the Galaxy, with a core and an edge and sectors, and I think stars that are close in TrueSpace are probably close in Hyperspace too. Hyperspace is a dimension that's a lot "closer", if that's a meaningful term, to ours, in terms of similarity and ease of travel, than QuasiSpace is to Hyperspace. (I do think that people who think of the spaces as being stacked on top of each other like pancakes are being too literal; the Arilou never say anything like that, just saying that the Orz are from "elsewhere". And the Orz linguistic best-fits *above* and *below* are just that, best-fits, probably chosen for the connotations of going upward and downward rather than any meaningful opposition between the two on a physical axis.)

But yeah, QuasiSpace is hard to get to. Keep in mind that as far as we know absolutely no one but the Arilou have QuasiSpace travel. If the Precursors were ever there, we have no sign of it, and the Arilou don't mention it at all. The Milieu didn't go there, since the Ur-Quan seem to utterly lack the technology. Either the Arilou are really good at defending their homes and keeping unwanteds out of QS, or else DF is just really hard to research, and smart races instinctively stay away from it.

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In fact, multidimensionality probably isn't even as simple as thinking of more axes along which to travel between dimensions: if getting from another dimension to this one was the hard part, and getting around within one dimension was the easy part, then why haven't *They* devoured everything in this dimension?  They clearly know this dimension exists and even know how to find it, since *They* either came here to eat the Androsynth or else caused the Androsynth to move to *Them* - but if *They* could do that, why wouldn't they do it to everyone else in this dimension, too?  Why would they need to *smell* each race separately in order to get to them, even if they're all in the same dimension?


Because the Star Control universe is a science fantasy that feels free to play with quasi-scientific magicla and spiritual concepts. *They* somehow depend on consciousness and awareness -- invading a race doesn't involve invading the physical space they occupy but invading their minds. *They* can only affect those who are conscious of them and aware of them. Why? It makes no sense in our universe, but *they* aren't from our universe, are they? Very Lovecraftian and creepy -- *they* may be pure consciousness, without a material form, and only able to affect things when they interact with other consciousnesses; you need to believe in them for them to exist. And yet, once you begin to suspect their existence, it's hard not to keep believing in them and thinking about them, like trying not to picture a white elephant. All they need to do is get their foot in the door -- do a *few* miracles and hauntings and plant a few suggestions in people's minds thanks to the opportunity they get when DF research breaks down the normal rules -- and then they can spread to a certain area. But they don't seem to have the power to come here on their own, or devour a race because they wish it -- the rules of *below* are more complicated than that. (Very reminiscent of the odd code of honor Biblical daemons are said to have.)

The idea that *above* is also some sort of spiritual realm where information and consciousness matter more than matter also has evidence behind it. There's a sort of spiritual element to the way the Arilou act and talk (they perceive time differently, they "discorporate" instead of dying, and so on) but also it neatly explains the odd reasoning behind the fact that your ship moves around in QS without consuming fuel. The absolute and constant drag imposed by Hyperspace was already a bit much to swallow, but it was in its way physically plausible. But it makes no sense for QS to both "drag" on your ship the way HS does and try to pull you to a standstill and yet take *no acceleration* to move through. If your engines aren't firing and pushing you forward, what's fighting the drag? And even if you don't need to fire your engines, you *are* firing your engines when you push the accelerator button; the ship's systems haven't changed since you left HS, have they? Why aren't the engines burning and consuming fuel when you're pushing the button that tells them to?

Crazy idea: The Arilou call QuasiSpace "Quasi"-Space for a reason -- it's not just a higher space like Hyperspace is over TrueSpace. Quasi-Space means something that appears like space but isn't, in the sense that TrueSpace and Hyperspace are physical spaces. Maybe QuasiSpace is a spiritual or mental universe where consciousness lives and operates according to nonphysical rules. So the Arilou's minds are powerful enough to allow them to live in QS on their home planet, which they "moved" to QS by visualizing it so strongly in QS that it can exist there (full of laws-of-physics defying wonders like "The Mountain Clouds of Thought" and "The Tangible Wish", names that evoke consciousness made physical). So the Arilou living there can do things like live forever with their souls surviving after death, because in QS it's their bodies that depend on their minds, not vice versa.

Maybe your ship exists in QS because you and your crew can't imagine surviving in QS without your ship, so you picture it around you and it exists there, but the only things with basic, true existence there are you and your crew's minds. So when you move the ship around the ship's engines can't burn -- there aren't physical laws complex enough to allow the engines to work at all in QS. But when you navigate the ship you *expect* the ship to move -- you're *willing* the ship to move, and the ship moves in response to your will, not to the nonexistent physical laws that are supposed to make its engines work. Hence QS is empty except for the portals that lead back to HS, because your mind can't perceive exits to places you know nothing about. And so on. It's not a perfect theory, but I find it quite compelling.

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I don't necessarily agree.  People seem to like this interpretation because it allows them to take the next step and point out that Orz might not realize that destroying our ships actually does hurt (and in fact permenantly destroys) sentient beings.  I don't like this interpretation, first of all because we never specified what kind of 'projection' of Orz it is that we see; if they're literally like 'fingers' that 'poke through' into our dimension but share some kind of connection to the 'true' Orz, then wouldn't it hurt a little to cut those fingers off?  It is possible that the projections are more like holograms - something that we can perceive and allows us to interact with the Orz, but which is not 'real' and does not have any impact on the 'true' Orz.  But even if this is the case, it seems plausible (from other things Orz says) that Orz understands that *dancing* in *heavy space* is actually bad for, and hurts, the people who live in *heavy space*.  If it didn't think that, why would it threaten to *dance* with us in order to get us to stop doing something it doesn't like, such as ask about the Androsynth?


No, the Orz do understand what we are, at least sort of. They *know* that we're not like the Orz; they specifically tell us that we are *many bubbles* and they are *fingers* and therefore they are not like us. So it's no good saying they think we're collective organisms too and if we explained individuality to them they'd change their ways.

It's more like, in my view, that the Orz (the high-level Orz, the big thing that the Orz we see are just fingers of) knows about us, but just doesn't care about us, and doesn't even understand why it should care. The same way (bringing back the tired old amoeba analogy) we don't really see what's so bad about killing germs when they threaten our lives, or when they make things inconvenient, or even going out of our way to kill and torture germs because we find it interesting and scientifically enlightening. Heck, not even germs; we do experiments with and play games using all sorts of things for fun.

The Orz may feel no more remorse about its *fingers* killing humans than we feel when our bodies'  white blood cells kill off random bacteria in our bodies, even bacteria that pose no threat to us. I mean, c'mon, why should we care? They're bacteria. And we're so high above them that our conscious minds consider the whole process automatic -- we have no way to stop it even if we wanted to. We don't really know what our white blood cells are doing -- they do what they do, they're a part of us, we let them run around and make decisions and respond to things and never give them any more thought than that.

That's probably the most chilling way to view the Orz, since it questions the relevance or meaningfulness of any attempt to judge them by human standards of good and evil, and underscores just how implacable they are -- not only can we not stop them, they can't stop themselves, and they can't even conceive of ever being able to stop themselves, or thinking on the level that would let them know there was anything to stop. (Yeah, we educated humans know all about how our white blood cells kill off bacteria in our intestines. That doesn't mean we actually experience it, or think about it, or care about it.) Bacteria may not like what we do, if the bacteria's way of "liking" or "disliking" something is at all similar to what humans mean when they like or dislike. But why should we care? How the hell should a bacterium have the right to impose on our consciences? Do *we* really have the right to ask the Orz to give a rat's ass about our welfare...?

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I agree with a previous poster that the Taalo probably met Orz in another dimension, after the Taalo figured out IDF.  But has anyone in the SC2 universe ever expressed concern that the Taalo might have fallen prey to *Them*?  If the Taalo have been galavanting around between dimensions, it seems that they would have almost definitely encountered *Them*, since the Androsynth had only just begin to poke a few holes when *They* immediately came and wiped them out.  So if the Taalo were somehow not vulnerable to *Them*, how come?  Maybe it has something to do with the Taalo's other precularity - their psionic ability.  If the Taalo were a species whose consciousness was such that psionic ability was second nature, maybe that also protects them from *Them*?  (That sounds convoluted, I know)  Maybe *They* 'eat' species not in a physical or literal way, but in a psychic way - like 'eat'ing their souls, and it only works if the prey can't protect itself psionically.  On the other hand, if that were true, it seems like the Arilou would have encouraged psionic ability in Humans to enable us to protect ourselves, and that doesn't seem to be the case.  On the other other hand, maybe the Taalo were, in fact, devoured by *Them*, and we just never heard about it.  Or maybe we did and I'm just forgetting it.


Orz definitely had something to do with Taalo. They claim that they were spreading throughout *Pretty Space* to *play* with the Taalo; they say the Dnyarri were *chasing* the Taalo and now they're *chasing* the Taalo. This sounds ominous, and sounds like the Orz and Taalo are enemies (at least from a mortal point of view) and that the Orz are making war on them. But they also call the Taalo *campers* and say they're better *campers* than you; since they tell you this when you're an ally, maybe the conflict reaches a point where the Taalo and Orz make peace?

It's my strong conviction that *They* and Orz are the same. It seems like the simplest and most obvious conclusion. (Also Paul and Ford openly revealed that the Orz and the "They" who offed the Androsynth are one and the same entity in a chat session.) Maybe not literally the same -- the invisible poltergeist *They* are certainly quite different in nature from the physical Orz fishfolk in the metal suits, the *fingers*, but they could be two manifestations of one infintely larger phenomenon. The Orz true nature, whatever it is, may have avatars of flesh and blood and metal it uses for playing one kind of game and ghostly fingers it uses to reach into people's minds directly when it suits it. The coolest theory in my mind is the theory that *They* are the pure manifestations of whatever dark Lovecraftian god lives in *Pretty Space*, and *They* infested the Androsynth's minds and then the Androsynth's bodies, playing with them, mutating them into strange and whimsical shapes, messing with their technology and their civilization and wreaking havoc, until it had something it was satisfied with. The physiology, psychology and technology of the Orz might be what's left over after the Androsynth have been thoroughly *played* with... maybe explaining why the Orz get so mad when you mention the Androsynth, because there's still a hint of Androsynth humanity inside of them that makes them uncomfortable.

In any case the way *They* work seems to require them to be in a different dimension from their victims and to break the laws of physics in certain ways. If the Taalo -- who are brilliant in ways we don't understand -- found a way to meaningfully survive in *PrettySpace*, maybe by turning themselves into spiritual beings, maybe having a technology that preserves their forms there, then the Orz-entity's tricks with *Them* might not work and it might have to confront them more as equals, things with the same kind of power if not the same level of power as it has. That status of being like equals could be what makes them better *campers* than you -- it might be tied to the sort of *time tricks* they're playing. Again, who really knows? But it's interesting to speculate about. I don't think I'd like a sequel where the Taalo popped up as nice, friendly talking rocks -- the only satisfying way for them to return would be strangely and irrevocably altered by their sojourn into *PrettySpace*.

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Along those lines, maybe the Precursors ultimate destination wasn't another dimension, but rather extinction: maybe the Precursors attracted the attention of *Them* and were just as vulnerable as the Androsynth.  Knowing that *They* were coming, and not wanting to put other life in this galaxy at risk, maybe the Precursors set up the Rainbow Worlds to mask our *smell* and then went somewhere else in order to draw *Them* away from us; when *They* caught up to the Precursors and devoured them, at least *They* didn't also catch wind of the other life in this galaxy in the process.  It would seem in line with the Precursor's noble image to sacrifice themselves to protect fledgling life.  


Nice theory. The Spathi call the Rainbow Worlds dump sites, but what do they know? The Precursors may have left radioactive wastes there to power the Rainbow effect, or as a convenient by-product of frantically dismantling their technology as doom looms near, or whatever. But the Rainbow effect does seem to be a sensor-scramblng effect; the idea being the Rainbow, according to the Melnorme, is that no matter what kind of sensors are used on it the signals come back as totally scrambled noise that goes all the way up and down whatever spectrum is being used to analyze the Rainbow World. Maybe this holds for *Their* ability to smell as well...


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Death 999 on August 04, 2004, 08:31:26 pm
... except you can still scan the surface of rainbow worlds for minerals, and get accurate readings. Maybe it's because it's a precursor ship doing the scanning?


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Art on August 04, 2004, 10:26:26 pm
Or maybe because the worlds' function as "dump sites" is secondary to the Rainbow effect -- that is, they treated the surface of the world with whatever causes the Rainbow scrambling, then dumped a whole bunch of their extra radioactives on the surface. Even though you can see and pick up the minerals you can't tell anything about what the terrain under them is like.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: FalconMWC on August 05, 2004, 04:05:26 am
But why would the precursors dump valuable radioactive materals? Your ships uses them with a little changes - Seems to me that the radioactive materails are to keep the real trash in check.  


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: meep-eep on August 06, 2004, 12:36:04 pm
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one of the things we do know about Slylandro is that they're evolved from predators, which means they had to physically surround, overpower and consume other life forms. That implies they're probably not tiny for Source life.

First, even tiny creatures may prey on even smaller ones.
Second, some predators hunt for prey bigger than themselves.
Third, I don't think the Slylandro were ever predators: "At first, we were little more than mindless consumers who glided at the edge of windwalls straining the air for small animalcules. But even then we were social creatures, who invented language so that we could better cooperate when herding food into dense concentrations."

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The immense length of their memories, and the fact that even on Source physical laws are the same as on Earth, means that there's a physical limit to how small they can be and still retain data encompassing lifespans measured in Drahn.

How much is there to remember in a world where "the only things we know about are clouds, food and other Slylandro"? The things they will remember would be the special things, like a visit from the Precursors.

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The analogy I always had in my mind for Slylandro was deep-sea creatures. And the intelligent top-of-the-food-chain species in the ocean do tend to a larger size than similar animals on land

It seems to me that all creatures in water can be (but don't have to) be larger because species with a density about equal to water do not need to have to have parts of their body support the rest. It's not only the top-of-the-food-chain species.
But just like on land, I see no reason why the "intelligent top-of-the-food-chain species" need to be the larger ones. And even if they are the larger ones, that's only compared to others. This still don't have to be very large compared to humans for instance.
As a water analogy, I thought of the Slylandro more like big jellyfish. This is partially based on the in-game graphics and the description as "gas bags". As brains will have to have many interconnected components, I suspect that the brains will be denser than air, which would mean they'd either have to be compensated for by lighter components, or be only a small fraction of the whole (which would suggest large Slylandro), in order to stay "buoyant".

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If anything, the pressure within a gas giant is a lot *greater* than the pressure in the Earth's ocean.

Not in the upper reaches of the atmosphere.

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It gives the Slylandro more reason to be big, since support structures in general are going to have to be larger and contain more redundancies not to be crushed by random movements in the ambient medium.

It's possible the Slylandro would just have to go with the air flow, their control being limited to making small course adjustments. I'd think the Slylandro would have learned/evolved to avoid the really dangerous places.

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There's a reason that the idea of the gigantic gasbag is familiar; it's been done in a few other science fiction stories before, and the native inhabitants of Jupiter or wherever do tend to be described as enormous in scale, because a life form that can survive the titanic energies in a gas giant is more believable as large than small.

These stories are not familiar to me. Anyhow, while only a huge life form may be able to resist the forces, smaller life forms can survive by just go wherever the wind takes them.

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(Never mind that, although we don't know what sensors the Precursors or the Melnorme had, for them to be detectable inside the maelstrom of a gas giant they'd probably have to be pretty large and noticeable.)

I disagree. It's not unlikely that many life forms have a very recognisable spectrum. If the Precursors were looking for life forms on the planet to study (while intelligent life on gas giants may be rare, simple life forms may be fairly common), they may have been looking for small scale deviations in the larger, relatively regular features.
I expect the Precursors to have very high resolution scanners and very sophisticated computers to make sense of all that information.

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To the Slylandro their environment is boring, because they're adapted to it and have long since killed off their natural enemies, but the medium they live in is one that would utterly destroy the Vindicator if it flew into it because of the sheer kinetic energy, discarding concerns about heat or radiation or active chemicals.

While the forces may be extreme, they're not unpredictable. If you go with the flow, you could survive. It's like standing still on the middle of the highway. That will not be very good for you and your car, but if you move at the same speed as the rest of the traffic, in the same direction, you should be ok.

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Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it's the *first* 500 km of the gas giant's atmosphere. It's *a* 500-km pressure zone that's safe for them to move around in, but it's still safely inside the atmosphere of the planet.

From the Star Control II Role Playing Resource Guide: "The Slylandro are an ancient race of gasbag people who live in the upper reaches of a gas giant's atmosphere."

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And I find it just plain unbelievable that you can get sentient life from a gasbag whose internal pressure is no more than 1 atmosphere. Life processes require a certain amount of density of the chemicals involved in order for there to be a certain rate of chemical reactions that allows life processes. If chemicals are too sparse or too rarefied, life can't survive, or life only survives in very small and simple ways.

500 km is still a large region. It's possible that certain processes only take places in the lower regions. Maybe it's the reverse of sea mammals: they could go down to "breathe" and then go up for a while.

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Earth's atmosphere dissipates too fast, lets gases separate quickly without reacting with each other

I don't quite understand what you mean here. Not all gasses react to each other. And some need a catalyst at certain pressures and temperatures.

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-- almost everything important we take from the air must be dissolved in water before it's in a form useful to life.

You mean oxygen in blood? The liquid in this case seems just to be a way for transport.

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This is why aspiring xenologists barely bother to speculate about finding life forms as giant gas clouds on Mars or Venus or Titan; if there isn't a liquid medium or the equivalent (and superpressurized gas inside a gas giant is an equivalent) then it's not worth looking for life as we know it.

Bacteria live in clouds on Earth. Why not on other planets?
And I'd like to see some source for "This is why aspiring xenologists barely bother to speculate [...]" (and I think the term is xenobiologist).

Note that I'm not saying the Slylandro aren't very big. I just think your arguments so far have not successfully made the point that they are.

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Occam's Razor. There are a lot of things that make the Precursors special other than the fact that they're very ancient sentient life forms. It seems kind of much to assume that whatever they were afraid of had to be some kind of universal threat, rather than something specific to the Precursors themselves.

What I actually meant to point out was that "not a universal threat" does not mean that their reason for leaving as they did must be "a threat to their status as godlike rulers of the galaxy" (for as far as their status can be considered as such).
Maybe it was another race they wanted to protect. Maybe there was a sudden opportunity for them that they might miss if they did not act quickly. For all we know they forgot they left the stove on.

Also, I don't think Occam's Razor is applicable here. Star Control is still a story. And an interesting story is about things that are uncommon (while not impossible).



Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: meep-eep on August 06, 2004, 03:48:40 pm
Wild theories this time. Time to blow some holes :).

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Orz definitely had something to do with Taalo. They claim that they were spreading throughout *Pretty Space* to *play* with the Taalo; they say the Dnyarri were *chasing* the Taalo and now they're *chasing* the Taalo.

The exact text is:
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Taalo are in *heavy space* and next what?
They spread to *Pretty Space* because Dnyarri are chasing them.
Now Dnyarri are sleeping, so Orz can *chase* them.

The last "them" could refer to the Dnyarri.
The Taalo were thought to be destroyed, and only later the Ur-Quan fought themselves free and "put the Dnyarri to sleep". The Orz could have been chasing the Taalo from the moment they entered pretty space. Yet the "so" suggests that what made the chasing possible was the Dnyarri being put to sleep.
Which makes it seem plausible that the Orz are hunting the "sleeping" Dnyarri, and as they are aboard the Ur-Quan ships, that would suggest the Orz are fighting Ur-Quan.

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(Also Paul and Ford openly revealed that the Orz and the "They" who offed the Androsynth are one and the same entity in a chat session.)

I challenge you to back that claim up, because I'm pretty sure they did not say that.

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*They* infested the Androsynth's minds and then the Androsynth's bodies, playing with them, mutating them into strange and whimsical shapes, messing with their technology and their civilization and wreaking havoc, until it had something it was satisfied with. The physiology, psychology and technology of the Orz might be what's left over after the Androsynth have been thoroughly *played* with... maybe explaining why the Orz get so mad when you mention the Androsynth, because there's still a hint of Androsynth humanity inside of them that makes them uncomfortable.

Nope:
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<LordR-man> Fwiffo- What really happened to the Androsynth in sc2?
<Fwiffo> In regards to the Androsynth: They were snagged by the entity
        who/which projected its fingers into our dimension (which looked to
        us as the Orz.)




Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: meep-eep on August 06, 2004, 04:25:03 pm
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even the upper layers of Jupiter register hundreds of atmospheres. There's no way space wouldn't make them pop, and the cost of building a capsule that could hold that much pressure inside of it would be an immense engineering problem, even if the Precursors, say, had the knowhow to do it.

Hundreds of atmospheres is peanuts. The deepest known point in the ocean is 10924 metres deep. At that depth the pressure would be about 1089 atmosphere. That place has been visited by a submarine, in 1960.
Now is protecting a sphere-like capsule from outside pressure easier than from inside pressure, but it doesn't seem like anything the Precursors couldn't handle.



Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Art on August 06, 2004, 05:44:20 pm
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First, even tiny creatures may prey on even smaller ones.
Second, some predators hunt for prey bigger than themselves.
Third, I don't think the Slylandro were ever predators: "At first, we were little more than mindless consumers who glided at the edge of windwalls straining the air for small animalcules. But even then we were social creatures, who invented language so that we could better cooperate when herding food into dense concentrations."


The Slylandro are mobile beings that survive by eating other life forms, life forms that they had to hunt, even if the hunting was a less violent process than it was for our ancestors. You can't really "herd" the equivalent of plankton. (And they do say there are hundreds of species, including predators and prey, but that they categorize everything into "clouds", "food" and "Slylandro", meaning all species, even the mobile predators, are food to them, so they weren't doing the equivalent of just grazing on insects. Go me for looking up the transcript.)

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As a water analogy, I thought of the Slylandro more like big jellyfish. This is partially based on the in-game graphics and the description as "gas bags". As brains will have to have many interconnected components, I suspect that the brains will be denser than air, which would mean they'd either have to be compensated for by lighter components, or be only a small fraction of the whole (which would suggest large Slylandro), in order to stay "buoyant".


Gas doesn't necessarily mean "air". The gas inside a gas giant is many times denser than the atmosphere of Earth. But yes, if the physical processes they operate on are anything like Earth animals', a bigger rather than smaller size suggests itself -- they need to hold up dense organs in a buoyant environment, so will surround themselves with more volume, along with the considerations I mentioned about more stored tissue leading to a longer potential lifespan, mass needed to hold memory, etc.

Also -- just thought of this, though it may have been in the back of my mind and been the strongest reason for my suspicion that the Slylandro were big -- just how are you seeing the Slylandro, anyway? You do visually see them, and their glowing bits inside of them. But you're in orbit high above -- it's either your sensors or the Precursor broadcasting satellite's sensors that's beaming an image of Content to Hover to you. You can see Content to Hover pretty clearly on your screen, with a nice clear view of the glowy bits inside of him -- if he's anywhere near human-sized, the Precursors have *amazing* telescopes. It's like building a telescope that can see down into the Marianas Trench from orbit, only the distance is probably multiplied by several times (if they're near the top of the upper reaches) or several hundred times (if they're a bit further down) and the material you have to scan through is a lot thicker and in a lot more chaotic motion.

Yes, the sensors probably are amazing no matter what, but it stretches credibility less if the Slylandro are really big things.

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Not in the upper reaches of the atmosphere.


Define "upper reaches". The parts where the gas flows freely at immense pressures with random electric discharges and storms and such *are* the upper reaches. The lower reaches -- the core -- of Jupiter are the parts we know very little about, where hydrogen is compressed into a metallic form, gases are in a state where nuclear fusion is randomly happening but not enough to initiate a stellar chain reaction, and such. It was never my thought that Slylandro lived in the lower reaches of the gas giant, where they'd probably be impossible to detect and be even weirder than we think they are now.

"In the upper reaches" doesn't, to me, mean "right at the very surface". Gas giants are hundreds of kilometers across -- a 500 km band could be 10,000  km in from the surface and still be in the "upper reaches". (They're probably actually a bit higher up than that, but the upper tenth of a planet could certainly count as "upper reaches".)

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It's possible the Slylandro would just have to go with the air flow, their control being limited to making small course adjustments. I'd think the Slylandro would have learned/evolved to avoid the really dangerous places.


If Slylandro can only tack with the wind like crude hot-air balloons, it's a lot harder to justify their ever developing intelligence; they developed intelligence because they needed to coordinate complex actions to herd prey species that were avoiding them, remember? And they don't talk like they're seriously restricted by currents -- they talk like they have the run of the planet ("If someone is bothering you, you can simply go somewhere else" -- not sound advice for current-drifters who really would be trapped with their neighbors for long periods of time).

Besides, it's not the fact that there are dangerous places that I'm alluding to -- Slylandro probably don't surf Great Spots. (Though they do have a kind of machismo culture with the whole Depths-diving.) But the Source equivalent of a clear, sunny day is still a writhing maelstrom compared to the worst storm on Earth. This is true even if you go up top where the pressure is less -- the average wind speed, chance for electrical discharge, ambient radiation, etc. is all much higher, generated by the sheer mass of the planet releasing a great deal more energy in its internal movements than the much dinkier Earth atmosphere. Slylandro *must* be a lot tougher in most conceivable ways than any Earth animal to live in that environment at all, even if from *their* perspective they're pampered, lazy civilized folk.

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I disagree. It's not unlikely that many life forms have a very recognisable spectrum. If the Precursors were looking for life forms on the planet to study (while intelligent life on gas giants may be rare, simple life forms may be fairly common), they may have been looking for small scale deviations in the larger, relatively regular features.
I expect the Precursors to have very high resolution scanners and very sophisticated computers to make sense of all that information.


"Spectrum" of what, radiation? Life isn't defined by some sort of special life radiation it emits; if it has a concrete definition it's as a set of complex self-reproducing chemical processes, which don't generate any particular kind of special radiation. (It probably radiates waste heat, but you couldn't tell the difference between a warm human body and a warm steam vent with just an infrared-sensitive scanner.)

The whole Star Trek thing of energy signatures and such is seriously overplayed. Especially in a gas giant where the chemistry of life must be wildly different from anything you'd see on an Earthlike planet, the only sure signs of life are the common sense ones -- Are things moving in non-chaotic, orderly patterns? Are there particular object shapes and behaviors that can't be explained by simple forces? If you have time to look, do you see complex chemicals that form themselves rather than being spontaneously formed and destroyed? It takes time and patience to look for those features, particularly when peering into something like a gas giant.

A gas giant has a very large amount of volume to look through with a lot more patterns and movements and things happening than on a rock like ours. It's like comparing the complexities of my backyard to the entire Pacific Ocean. Star Control 2 acknowledges this, and acknowledges in the manual that gas giants are such a soupy mess that everyone agrees trying to find practical data or resources from them is a waste of time.

Slylandro do say sentient life instead of just "life", though that's not proof that there *is* other known gas giant life -- after all, you sure as heck don't know of any, yet they don't bother to tell you if the Precursors did find other gasbags somewhere else. And the Melnorme pay an exorbitant price to analyze Source's life because the information is so unique (they do say the life of Source in general, not just the Slylandro). I don't think the idea of the Precursors having a detailed and thorough search process to find gas giant life forms is all that likely.

'Sides, this was in their time of desperation just before they disappeared -- why would they be doing routine searches for life? The only reason they'd talk to the Slylandro at such a time would be if the Slylandro were such a compelling and obvious anomaly that a good scientist couldn't resist. They'd have to be large enough so that their movements are visible from orbit, at least as large patterns moving across the sky (like bird flights) -- this also argues against the theory that they simply drift with the currents.

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500 km is still a large region. It's possible that certain processes only take places in the lower regions. Maybe it's the reverse of sea mammals: they could go down to "breathe" and then go up for a while.


If so we hear nothing about it, and it seems like the sort of thing they'd slip in to their discussion of the Depths and the Void. But it still doesn't really make sense to me to have the 500 km region hovering at the very top of the atmosphere like that; Earth's atmosphere is itself less than 50 or so km thick. The line at which the pressure gets to be 1 atmosphere fades into space pretty soon after; I have a hard time believing that a creature shaped like the Slylandro that's probably dependent on its medium for locomotion and, like jellyfish, probably dependent on the in/out cycle in its main body bag for basic life processes, could function at all in free space, much less report no ill effects except slowly getting tipsy. The pressure gradient would probably be less steep lower down where the effects of gas hovering on the transition between gas and liquid would have more of an effect (no, I'm not a real astronomer, sorry for my horribly vague phrasing).

But this isn't relevant; the real question is whether it's plausible for life to exist in an environment of all 1 atmosphere pressure gas, and I say probably not.

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I don't quite understand what you mean here. Not all gasses react to each other. And some need a catalyst at certain pressures and temperatures.


Right. And the majority of chemical reactions involving common elements and compounds require certain activation energies. These energies are a lot lower under certain conditions; generally, on our planet water acts as an ideal solvent that creates the conditions necessary for the chemical reactions of life. Without water, the energies involved would need to be too high to keep these reactions going, and would be far more likely to cross the line of *other* reactions that would cause the complex life structures to break down. Water as a medium acts as a powerful general "catalyst" and is absolutely essential for life as we know it; the same molecules in dry, powdered form or dry gaseous form could sit in an area boiling with energy (the surface of Mercury, say) and never do a single thing.

You need a way to force ions to remain free and interact with each other; water, as a polar solvent, provides one method. Another method might be to have gas at such high temperatures that it remains free and fluid, but under such pressures that it has liquid-like properties; pressures that allow bonds to form and break easily by moving electrons close enough to jump from one molecule to another (apologies again for the squishy language: I'm no chemist but I was raised in a household of them so I have a  picture in my head of how it works). We *know* water does it; we don't know if you could get the right chemical soup at the right level of radiation and heat to get the same effect, without there being too *much* energy that would break down your complex chemical structures by sheer random heat as soon as they formed. Hence we're much less excited about discovering gas giant life than water-based life on rocky worlds. But if it could happen, it'd have to happen in a soupy highly charged pressurized-gas environment that had the same potential as a soupy ocean of water and dissolved ions on Earth.

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 Bacteria live in clouds on Earth. Why not on other planets?
And I'd like to see some source for "This is why aspiring xenologists barely bother to speculate [...]" (and I think the term is xenobiologist).

Note that I'm not saying the Slylandro aren't very big. I just think your arguments so far have not successfully made the point that they are.


Heck no. The most basic processes that make life life -- DNA replication, protein synthesis, and the respiration that allows cells to get energy from food, both aerobic and anaerobic -- are utterly dependent on water. Water provides the basic building blocks that link monomers together -- water is used up to put together proteins and released when proteins break down, which is one reason eating lots of high-protein food dehydrates you. The watery medium is what allows the molecules that control and manipulate oxygen (like hemoglobin) to work; without those controls in place oxygen is nothing but a deadly corrosive gas (one reason why air bubbles floating in your blood are a Very Bad Thing). Blood is a secondary consideration; every single one of your body's cells is a little bag of watery goo. Every living part of your body depends on water -- it's no surprise Slylandro call us "fluid sacks".

The bacteria that live in the air are cells; they contain a watery solution. They *evolved* in the ocean or some other water source, as did all Earth life -- the ion concentration in our bloodstreams, scientists speculate, is precisely balanced to be that of the ancient ocean when life evolved in it; we just carry that ancient home ocean around with us, even though the real ocean has since dissolved more rocks and gotten a lot saltier (one barrier to new life spontaneously evolving on our planet).

Whatever exotic blend of gases under profoundly un-Earth-like conditions can make floating gases act like ions dissolved in water (and it'd have to be exotic), life could only evolve in *that*, not in gases at Earthlike temperature and pressures, where nearly all common elements will adopt common compound forms and stay stable there without changing. And while bacteria-like things could migrate from their original environment to an environment infinitely less dense, less energy-rich, less full of the things they need and survive, I find it hard to believe a whole ecosystem of big organisms; it'd be the leap from oceans to land times a hundred, since the cells or their equivalents of cells would have to maintain not just a water solution but a high-pressure high-energy mix of gases inside of themselves in a low-pressure environment that would be trying to make them explode.

Sigh. I don't have time to look up sources just now -- it's late -- but there is an interesting absence of evidence that might be evidence of absence. When people think of where there might be life in the solar system, they point to Mars (if the signs of liquid water pan out), maybe Titan (if there's liquid methane and liquid methane can be shown to act like liquid water) or maybe one of the moons of Jupiter like Europa (where we know there very well might be liquid water because there's frozen ice). Liquid water is a big deal. When was the last time you heard about a serious effort to look for life that didn't involve water?

And the study of alien life is a field without any data (or hardly any data), so it's not really formalized enough to have a single name. I prefer "xenologist" because speculating about aliens is a vague enough hobby with so little hard data that you can lump it all into one category. If you want to make distinctions between studying sentient aliens' cultures and technology and studying alien life forms in general, be my guest.

I never said it was hard-and-fast proven in the game what size Slylandro were. It is, after all, just a game, and if the game wanted us to know the game would tell us, maybe in some humorous fashion. (Melnorme: "The Slylandro are a race roughly the size of the odd human artifacts you know as Goodyear Blimps, and quite similar to said blimps in their physiology, rarity and pleasant disposition.") But when trying to treat sf as hard sf, there are a lot of things you can assume if you're allowed to assume a certain similarity to real life, and what little I know about this stuff in real life makes it much more natural for me to picture the Slylandro as big.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Ivan Ivanov on August 06, 2004, 06:31:56 pm
Ok Art, you said that Slylandro have to be big to be able to defy the massive forces in the gas giant. The problem is that the bigger the object is, the higher are the forces that it needs to defy.
If the Slylandro were big enough for you to see them from orbit and  lived somewhere in the middle of their atmosphere where the conditions are quite extreme, their metabolism would need to produce more energy then an avarage nuclear power plant.
They could be big and still survive, if they lived in the outer reaches of the atmosphere where the pressure, wind speed and whatnot  is considerably smaller. Still it would easier for them to survive if they were smaller.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: meep-eep on August 07, 2004, 01:02:59 am
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Gas doesn't necessarily mean "air". The gas inside a gas giant is many times denser than the atmosphere of Earth.

When I say "air" I mean the mixture of gasses in the atmosphere.

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Also -- just thought of this, though it may have been in the back of my mind and been the strongest reason for my suspicion that the Slylandro were big -- just how are you seeing the Slylandro, anyway? You do visually see them, and their glowing bits inside of them. But you're in orbit high above -- it's either your sensors or the Precursor broadcasting satellite's sensors that's beaming an image of Content to Hover to you.

I'm not sure whether the broadcasting satellite is even still in place. The text "They even installed a broadcasting satellite in orbit around our world
which let us talk with them whenever we wanted." suggests to me that they could talk to the precursors while they were away.

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You can see Content to Hover pretty clearly on your screen, with a nice clear view of the glowy bits inside of him -- if he's anywhere near human-sized, the Precursors have *amazing* telescopes. It's like building a telescope that can see down into the Marianas Trench from orbit, only the distance is probably multiplied by several times (if they're near the top of the upper reaches) or several hundred times (if they're a bit further down) and the material you have to scan through is a lot thicker and in a lot more chaotic motion.

It's a bit of a stretch, but a pretty advanced software could perhaps compensate for the scattering of the light. Especially if you scan from different places so that various data can be combined. This could be common knowledge among space-faring races.
And if necessary, we could always accept what you see in the game as just a convenient representation of what's really happening.

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Define "upper reaches".

This was a litteral quote from the hints book. By this wording, I'd expect the distance from the top to be substantially less than the width of the habitable band. The band itself is 500km wide. So maybe the 600 to 100km from the top?

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The parts where the gas flows freely at immense pressures with random electric discharges and storms and such *are* the upper reaches.

You assume all gas giants are like the ones in our solar system. Source may be a lot more friendly.

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If Slylandro can only tack with the wind like crude hot-air balloons, it's a lot harder to justify their ever developing intelligence; they developed intelligence because they needed to coordinate complex actions to herd prey species that were avoiding them, remember?

Within quiet patches (and large streams that move at a constant speed) they may have the ability to move at will. It's just when they move in fast streams that they would have to submit. Again driving on roads sounds like a good comparison. On freeways the only thing you can do is change lanes to change where you are going, and pass other cars within the flow. In a small town you will be able to move pretty much at will.

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And they don't talk like they're seriously restricted by currents -- they talk like they have the run of the planet ("If someone is bothering you, you can simply go somewhere else" -- not sound advice for current-drifters who really would be trapped with their neighbors for long periods of time).

Slylandro take things slow. If it takes a few weeks to move a few kilometers, they may still consider that "go there at will".

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Besides, it's not the fact that there are dangerous places that I'm alluding to -- Slylandro probably don't surf Great Spots.

They may in fact. The dangerous place is around the edges of such a Great Spot. If you're in the stream of the great spot, and simple let yourself be moved with the speed of the winds there, you're not in any danger.

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"Spectrum" of what, radiation? Life isn't defined by some sort of special life radiation it emits; if it has a concrete definition it's as a set of complex self-reproducing chemical processes, which don't generate any particular kind of special radiation. (It probably radiates waste heat, but you couldn't tell the difference between a warm human body and a warm steam vent with just an infrared-sensitive scanner.)

You can recognise a material by the spectrum of its radiation. Very local deviations in the spectrum of a part of the planet may point to life. A very fast computer with smart software may find these in a short time.

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Star Control 2 acknowledges this, and acknowledges in the manual that gas giants are such a soupy mess that everyone agrees trying to find practical data or resources from them is a waste of time.

It doesn't say that at all.
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Although there has been some discussion of harvesting the upper atmosphere of gas giants with enormous ?scoop-ships,? your flagship is incapable of
gleaning any useful minerals from such planets.


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Slylandro do say sentient life instead of just "life", though that's not proof that there *is* other known gas giant life -- after all, you sure as heck don't know of any, yet they don't bother to tell you if the Precursors did find other gasbags somewhere else.

The Slylandro say
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As far as we know, we're the only sentient species who's ever evolved in the atmosphere of a gas giant. Of course, from what we know, most Travellers like yourselves don't have much interest in gas giants so maybe there are others like us Slylandro out there somewhere.

The manual says:
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To date, no complex life-form has ever been found in/on a gas giant; however, research into this field has been minimal.

This at least suggests simple life has been found.

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And the Melnorme pay an exorbitant price to analyze Source's life because the information is so unique (they do say the life of Source in general, not just the Slylandro). I don't think the idea of the Precursors having a detailed and thorough search process to find gas giant life forms is all that likely.

I never claimed that. But I do find it likely that the Precursors would make a detailed inventory of all planets in this region of space. A scan for (even simple) life could be standard.

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'Sides, this was in their time of desperation just before they disappeared -- why would they be doing routine searches for life?

I'm not sure they were "worried" all the time they visited the Slylandro. When joyous lifting said the Precursors were "always hurrying from place to place" she may just have been refering to the last period.
Anyhow, the Precursors visited the Slylandro over several Drahn. That's a long period. If you look at how long it would take you to scan all the planets in this area, that would only be a fraction of the time the Precursors would have been worried. And it may even have been part of their search.

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The only reason they'd talk to the Slylandro at such a time would be if the Slylandro were such a compelling and obvious anomaly that a good scientist couldn't resist. They'd have to be large enough so that their movements are visible from orbit, at least as large patterns moving across the sky (like bird flights) -- this also argues against the theory that they simply drift with the currents.

I don't see that. Once the Precursors knew about the Slylandro, they may just stop by on occasion, when they're in the neighbourhood.

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But this isn't relevant; the real question is whether it's plausible for life to exist in an environment of all 1 atmosphere pressure gas, and I say probably not.

It wouldn't be much different from a balloon on Earth. I'd think something similar could evolve. And the high end of their acceptable environment may very well be lower. I'm not claiming they'd have to be able to live all the way up to the vacuum.

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[whole story about how water is used in Earth life

That still doesn't convince me that there can be no other way. Water is abundant on Earth. It makes sense that it's used a lot. But that doesn't mean that without something like water life cannot exist.
Also look here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_chauvinism#Non-water_solvents).

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And while bacteria-like things could migrate from their original environment to an environment infinitely less dense, less energy-rich, less full of the things they need and survive, I find it hard to believe a whole ecosystem of big organisms; it'd be the leap from oceans to land times a hundred, since the cells or their equivalents of cells would have to maintain not just a water solution but a high-pressure high-energy mix of gases inside of themselves in a low-pressure environment that would be trying to make them explode.

It can go very gradually. If a life form is capable of going just a bit higher, it will have an advantage over the ones that can't. Natural selection does the rest.

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And the study of alien life is a field without any data (or hardly any data), so it's not really formalized enough to have a single name. I prefer "xenologist" because speculating about aliens is a vague enough hobby with so little hard data that you can lump it all into one category.

It's an actual scientific field.

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If you want to make distinctions between studying sentient aliens' cultures and technology and studying alien life forms in general, be my guest.

That's the difference between astrosociobiology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrosociobiology) and  exobiologgy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exobiology).

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But when trying to treat sf as hard sf, there are a lot of things you can assume if you're allowed to assume a certain similarity to real life, and what little I know about this stuff in real life makes it much more natural for me to picture the Slylandro as big.

Not to me. To me both small and large size is possible.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: taleden on August 07, 2004, 01:44:25 am
I hesitate to play the 'off-topic' card, since technically this thread has been off topic for a long time, and nobody's really sure what the topic *was* anymore, but I think this Slylandro discussion deserves its own thread.  Or you guys could just PM eachother.  :)


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: meep-eep on August 07, 2004, 04:46:31 am
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I hesitate to play the 'off-topic' card, since technically this thread has been off topic for a long time, and nobody's really sure what the topic *was* anymore, but I think this Slylandro discussion deserves its own thread.  Or you guys could just PM eachother.  :)

You're absolutely right. I didn't even realise it.

As for the Slylandro, I personally have spent enough time on the subject, but if anyone still wants to respond, we can discuss the matter further in a seperate thread.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Art on August 07, 2004, 05:25:06 am
Yeah, I agree. The whole Slylandro thing spun kind of out of control. My apologies.

One quick note about the off-topic topic before this off-topic topic: I don't think we necessarily disagree that much about the Precursor thing, since I think we both think that the Precursors could've left for any reason and that the chance that there was a threat to the Slylandro because there may've been a threat to the Precursors is minimal. I think you misread what I said as saying the Precursors left because of a threat *to* their status as rulers of the galaxy, when I said the Precursors left because of a threat that occurred *because of* their status as rulers of the galaxy (i.e. whatever opportunity they were seeking, race they were seeking to protect, threat they were fleeing, it wasn't something that would've happened to them had they not been the Precursors --- not some universal thing, anyway).

The original reason for all this was someone, I think, pointing at a possible inconsistency between the Slylandro living in Precursor times and not having been eaten by the Eternal Ones, and me saying that's only a problem if SC3 is canon and if not there's no reason for us to think there are Eternal One-type things at all, and devolving into questions of how and why the Slylandro would/could be rescued if it *was* a problem, and a whole lot of unnecessary stuff. :)


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: taleden on August 08, 2004, 06:51:03 am
To resurrect something that's come up a few times in this thread...

I was playing the other day and noticed something odd.  One of the fairly universal interpretations that this community (or at least this thread) has made about SC2 is that Orz is a singular entity which projects multiple *fingers*, or however you translate the concept, into this dimension; this means talking to any of Orz's *fingers* is equivalent, since you're still communicating with the same extra-dimensional entity.

But if that's the case, why do the Orz make you go to their/its "homeworld" in order to form an alliance?  First of all, it's not their/its "homeworld", but even if they/it have designated that their/its base of operations, why would the *fingers* present there be any different than those present on every Orz ship you encounter in hyperspace?

Seems to suggest that there are, in fact, multiple distinct entities that make up the Orz; maybe it's just a few and each one has multiple *fingers*, and the "leader" is the one whose *fingers* all stay on the "homeworld"?  It still seems contradictory, though, since the Orz do say some things that fairly strongly suggest there being just one Orz (I forget the exact wording, but "you think I am many bubbles, but I am just Orz", for example).


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Art on August 08, 2004, 09:29:53 am
Many things the Orz do seem intended to make them seem like just another random alien race; if you buy the theory that the Orz bodies are a warped version of Androsynth, taken over by the real entity behind Orz, whatever it is, it might make sense that they by design have separate physiologies (the fish bodies), different ships, a different language and a different homeworld from the original Androsynth. (The fact that they really are a different order of being from another dimension explains why they're so *bad* at fitting in or deflecting suspicion.)

I can't think of any good reason why the *fingers* of some extradimensional entity should have to look like green fish-folk that breathe an ethanol solution and fly blue batwing ships, much less other things like having a specific homeworld and ranked captains aboard their ships and such, other than that they're following what they see as the rules of *heavy space* life.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Sander Scamper on August 08, 2004, 10:19:30 am
Pointing Fingers = Leaders
Middle Fingers = Ship Command
Next-to-pinky = Laborours
Pinky = Scientists
Thumb = Thumbs arent fingers.

It's silly, but there you go =p


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Art on August 11, 2004, 07:29:20 am
So you associate middle fingers with ships' captains in your mind, huh? I can see you must've spent time in the navy. :) And I can see pinkies being scientists must come from a certain cartoon involving a pinky in a science lab...

I won't comment directly at the association of the ring finger with hard labor, though it's certainly one a lot of young guys have, at least if there's a lil' gold band on it.


Title: Re: 'They' cannot see you now.
Post by: Sander Scamper on August 12, 2004, 08:34:23 am
Ring fingers are critical to work.

If you cut off a person's ring finger, they cant actually grip heavy objects and maintain a real grip long enough to move it, the ring finger is much more important than many realise.

And yes, Pinky and the Brain is a monumental achievement of mankind and shall live forever =p

How, pray tell, could i have spent time in the navy at age 14? =p
Ship command are the ones who command combat, so i imagine them to be fairly aggressive. Hence, the middle finger =p