The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release => General UQM Discussion => Topic started by: Zworag on February 06, 2004, 02:23:20 am



Title: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: Zworag on February 06, 2004, 02:23:20 am
Some ridiculously high/low prices always bothered me. I'm not saying that the prices should be changed, just trying to start discussion. Against computers this is a completely different story, though. here's my views:

Androsynth: Much better than a 15, if you're a good pilot.
Arilou: Good against a few ships, but too few crew to be worth 16.
Chenjesu: Overpriced, slow and almost useless special weapon. The main weapon is very good for long range though.
Chmmr: Would be worth a 30, but there are too many counter ships.
Druuge: If you're skilled pilot, the ship is well worth its value. Also, designed to kill Chhmrs.
Earthling: Good against some ships and helpless against the others. It's a good buy though.
Ilwrath: Too slow, and the cloaking device is too hard to use, not a good pick.
Kohr-Ah: Probably the best ship in the game. When used well, the fire shield can destroy almost anything and there aren't many good counter ships.
Melnorme: Very good ship if you're skilled with long range weapons.
Mmrnmhrm: I think it's a good overall ship and most importantly can take care of Traddash.
Mycon: Good against slow ships, but horrible against anything fast. Not worth its cost.
Orz: A decent ship, but main weapon is poor and the ship can be wasted with a Guardian. Good against Chmmr, though.
Pkunk: Use them if you feel lucky, but they're still probably not worth a 20.
Shofixti: Well, it costs only 5...
Slylandro: Too weak and too expensive.
Spathi: Isn't this vessel banned in human vs. human fights? It does nothing more than annoy both players, because the only good tactic is to run away - and missiles won't hit anything else than a dumb computer.
Supox: Has some potential, but too vulnerable - you usually can't afford one mistake.
Syreen: Probably an underestimated ship. If you happen to fight near the planet, you can try to drain other's crew and watch the planet consume it.
Traddash: A great, but rather annoying ship. Counters Utwig and many other ships, and costs only 10.
Umgah: Don't buy it unless you can use it really well.
Ur-Quan: Fighters are useless against most ships, and cannon is hard to hit with. Overpriced ship.
Utwig: Banned, but can be beaten by Traddash and Melnorme (and Chenjesu?) so its only use is to destroy the large ships (Kohr-Ah most importantly) and die.
VUX: Too slow to be any good.
Yehat: One of few ships that can beat a Kohr-Ah. Not many other uses, though.
Zoqfot: I use it only to kill Earth cruisers.

The reason why I don't like to play against computer is its stupidness. Why did the Shofixti ever need Blaze of glory when *one* Shofixti ship can beat an Ur-Quan captained by an awesome computer? (yes, the Ur-Quan won't stop sending fighters until they have only like 8 crew left). Why don't computer ships even try to avoid Torch's afterburner or Guardian's bubbles?


Title: Re: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on February 06, 2004, 02:32:33 am
Well, the value in melee doesn't represent the strenght of the ship. It represent the RU it costs to build devided by 1000. But usally with strenght you need more matiriel, or expensive matiriel.


Title: Re: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: Shiver on February 06, 2004, 04:06:04 am
I made a post like this a while back. I think Zworag is way too frigging picky, but I agree with him on a few things. In particular, the Mycon Podship should go down a few points while the Androsynth Guardian needs to be pricier.


Title: Re: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: AnonomouSpathi on February 06, 2004, 03:56:35 pm
I'm pretty sure I'd flat out refuse to play with anybody who banned the Jugger but not the Marauder.  Banning Juggers makes Marauders too valuable, as it removes the single best countership for them.


The only one I really think is totally out of whack is the Guardian, which really is massively underpriced.  It's very dangerous, and even it's counterships tend not to come away clean.  The mycon I'm not sure of.  It can really wail on a select few ships, and it can regenerate, but it does get shredded by it's counters pretty badly.


Title: Re: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: Chrispy on February 06, 2004, 07:25:07 pm
Eluders and Blades can take on a marauder. Then again, I've never played a really pro marauder pilot.


Title: Re: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: Death 999 on February 06, 2004, 07:55:19 pm
Comment time!

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Chenjesu: Overpriced, slow and almost useless special weapon. The main weapon is very good for long range though.


It is slow, and slow to turn. However, the special weapon is VERY useful against some ships. Like, it's very fun to be nose-to-nose with a Kohr-Ah or Ur-Quan if it has zero battery all the time. Nice against Druuge and Utwig. Also note that at close range this ship can dish out the damage very quickly.

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Chmmr: Would be worth a 30, but there are too many counter ships.


Most of the counters mainly work on naive enemies. A Thraddash can be taken out by camping and judicious use of the tractor beam.

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Kohr-Ah: Probably the best ship in the game. When used well, the fire shield can destroy almost anything and there aren't many good counter ships.


Agreed. Even the ships that normally do well against this can be defeated by a good strong gravity whip and well-applied FRIED or backwards-dropped discs. It reduces their margin for error, you see.

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Mmrnmhrm: I think it's a good overall ship and most importantly can take care of Traddash.


So can Cruisers, and they're much cheaper.

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Orz: A decent ship, but main weapon is poor and the ship can be wasted with a Guardian. Good against Chmmr, though.


A fresh Orz can kill nearly any slow ship with a stream of marines. Especially effective against Kohr-Ah (be sure to send them in a straight line). Remember to take your finger off the special key so you can turn.

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Pkunk: Use them if you feel lucky, but they're still probably not worth a 20.


AGREED. Except that the Computer is abusively powerful with this ship. In-freaking-sane.

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Traddash: A great, but rather annoying ship. Counters Utwig and many other ships, and costs only 10.


Counters COMPUTER Utwig...


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Ur-Quan: Fighters are useless against most ships, and cannon is hard to hit with. Overpriced ship.


Fighters can be used against a lot more ships than you might think. For example, if you get fighters SPREAD OUT over a distance, they provide a much deadlier net. Sending out one pair can drain an Utwig in preparation for a nose-to-nose confrontation. Also, if your enemy is committed to crossing your line of fire, the battery has room for several shots...


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VUX: Too slow to be any good.


Au contraire. Limpets will keep enemies far enough back to find the planet. Gravity whip, then limpet away. You can kill lots of things. If you lose, there's a good chance you'll limpet them, making them lose next time.

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Yehat: One of few ships that can beat a Kohr-Ah. Not many other uses, though.


Really? It's excellent against any ship which it can overtake. The pulse cannon is extremely powerful and the battery regeneration is solid. Then there's the shield. You may not have the computer's reflexes, but the shield is still a very good thing.


Title: Re: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: Zworag on February 06, 2004, 08:13:53 pm
Yes, Marauder is one of the best ships, but there are a few good ships against it. Yehat is even cheaper counter ship than an Utwig. A good Supox pilot can beat Marauder, but the problem is that you can't afford any mistakes. And ever tried Chenjesu? The ships are very similar - Chenjesu just has to avoid the flames. I don't believe an Eluder can harm a Marauder too much.

There are many opinions about Mycon. My opinion is that it's good against new players, but most veterans know how to play effectively against it.


Title: Re: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: FalconMWC on February 06, 2004, 08:17:22 pm
Did I hear you say that a Spathi ship can not hurt a Marauder that much!!!?  I disagree completely. Yes, it takes some practice - but I can take one spathi ship and kill about 5 butal marauders on average. 10 if I am lucky.  

My thoughts about eh mycon are that it is way to easy to kill if you have a fast ship to steer the plasmoids back to the mycon ship.


Title: Re: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: Zworag on February 06, 2004, 08:23:16 pm
Death_999:

I don't think an Orz could defeat a Marauder. Surely, a few troopers might get in, but Marauder has enough crew to survive it. Kohr-Ah is only slightly slower than troopers and can shoot them down with the main weapon rather easily.

I'm positive a Traddash can beat Utwig no matter how you use the Jugger. Jugger has no chance to gain any battery, because Traddash main weapon does only 1 damage - still it goes through Utwig's ammo pretty often. Just make sure Utwig won't get any batteries from afterburners, keep the distance and snipe. I'd say a Traddash/Cruiser fight is very even. Traddash is agile enough to avoid missiles, and can kill the cruiser from distance. But then again, cruiser only needs to hit twice to win.

I have changed my mind about Yehat. I played Melee a few times today, and defeated many ships with correct use of shield.


Title: Re: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: Zworag on February 06, 2004, 08:25:06 pm
Not talking about human vs. computer fights. Yes I know you can defeat all the Ur-Quans and Kohr-Ahs in game with Fwiffo, but you can abuse the flawed computer AI many other ways too.


Title: Re: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: Chrispy on February 06, 2004, 09:54:42 pm
the nemasis can kill a marauder. Just dont use marines, and focus on dodging and firing


Title: Re: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: Dworag on February 06, 2004, 11:27:29 pm
There's no pilot who can kill a Marauder like that. It's hard enough to avoid the killers floating in the space, but you'd have to hit with the main weapon too. It's hard enough with a Blade, and many times harder with a Nemesis.


Title: Re: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: NECRO-99 on February 07, 2004, 12:44:02 am
Dworag must be the only other person in here who plays against other hunams. :P
Well, I'ma do like D999 did and run my mouth about what his list says. It'll probably sound the same, but hey, I like to type.

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Androsynth: Much better than a 15, if you're a good pilot.

My ship, if everyone already didn't know. It's cost is what it is due to the lack of compitent flyers. Personally, I can brutalize just about anything with it, so I'd crank it up to 20 or so. ;D

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Arilou: Good against a few ships, but too few crew to be worth 16.

A "few"? Inertialess drive makes it invaluable against both large and small ships. Sit next to the planet vs. larger craft, and get into a chase with the smaller ones (not Shofixti, btw :P). When they come charging at you, angle off and stop. They go zinging by, allowing you to get medieval with your zapper.

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Chenjesu: Overpriced, slow and almost useless special weapon. The main weapon is very good for long range though.

I consdier the Broodhome more like a piece of space artillery than a direct combat ship. It's DOGI's reaffirm this. If the enemy can't shoot due to my 4 DOGI's drinking it's battery like wine, what's to worry? I think the cost is fine.

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Chmmr: Would be worth a 30, but there are too many counter ships.

Playing against hunams, I'd have to say the price should crank UP to about 35-40. Most people that see a Chmmr try to get the hell away ASAP, unless they really know what they're doing.

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Druuge: If you're skilled pilot, the ship is well worth its value. Also, designed to kill Chhmrs.

Agreed. Practice makes good snipers.

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Earthling: Good against some ships and helpless against the others. It's a good buy though.

Rooting for the home team, I'd have to agree again. Things like a Jugger cut the Crusier in half, while ships like the Avenger and the Drone are nuke fodder. I guess that isn't saying much though, is it?  :(

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Ilwrath: Too slow, and the cloaking device is too hard to use, not a good pick.

Actually, I find it fun unnerving my opponents that don't watch for the winking stars. The screen starts to zoom in on them and they panic. Mwah. Keep it where it is.

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Kohr-Ah: Probably the best ship in the game. When used well, the fire shield can destroy almost anything and there aren't many good counter ships.

Overrated. It should be worth more due to it's uber nature, but there are a few good ships that can tear it up with minimal losses (Spathi, Mmrnmhrm).

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Melnorme: Very good ship if you're skilled with long range weapons.

Yep. Keep the price about where it is, maybe a little higher due to the lasting effects of the Screwer-Upper.

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Mmrnmhrm: I think it's a good overall ship and most importantly can take care of Thraddash.

I had to add the "h" to Thraddash. Luki is guilty of this crime too, so don't feel alone. :P The Mmrnmhrm is probably my second best ship, tied with the Probe.

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Mycon: Good against slow ships, but horrible against anything fast. Not worth its cost.

Another piece of space artillery. It gets it's cost, probably, from it's ability to regenerate due to the fact that it's gonna have to soak up plenty of it's own Plasmoids. :P

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Orz: A decent ship, but main weapon is poor and the ship can be wasted with a Guardian. Good against Chmmr, though.

3 batt converts into 3 damage. I'd say that's decent. What this ship needs is a larger battery. As for Guardians, yes. I OWN the Orz with my Guardian. The cost is a little steep, I think, but probably because of the nifty lil' Marines.

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Pkunk: Use them if you feel lucky, but they're still probably not worth a 20.

Agreed.

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Shofixti: Well, it costs only 5...

A great terror ship. It's bombing power should make it cost about 10, but due to low crew size and battery, I guess, it's 5.

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Slylandro: Too weak and too expensive.

Too general of a statement. This is one of those ships that no one ever bothers to even begin to try to fly, just because it's stereotyped as a piece of crap. I can go through just about any ship with a Probe and come out victorious. It's all about timing, really. It's price is fine for it's abilities, once you get them downpat. Read this: http://uqm.stack.nl/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Gendiscuss;action=display;num=1062686746 for my (and other's) looks at how to use ships effectively. Costwise? Keep it where it is, just because most don't know it's secrets. *evil laugh*

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Spathi: Isn't this vessel banned in human vs. human fights? It does nothing more than annoy both players, because the only good tactic is to run away - and missiles won't hit anything else than a dumb computer.

Eh, you can't "ban" a ship from a fight: It's in the game for a reason; to be used. That, and who says you have to use the
BUTT to destroy people? That pea-shooter can be lethal. Costwise? It's good, maybe a little higher.

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Supox: Has some potential, but too vulnerable - you usually can't afford one mistake.

People usually try to dance too much and wind up scrap metal. If you use this ship without it's dancing abilities, it's still quite handy in a fight. It's cost is OK.

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Syreen: Probably an underestimated ship. If you happen to fight near the planet, you can try to drain other's crew and watch the planet consume it.

Syreen vs. Mycon = Recruitment drive. This ship rocks, but gets smoked when fighting anyone that has decent long range abilities (or the Probe due to inorganic "crew"). Should cost more.

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Thraddash: A great, but rather annoying ship. Counters Utwig and many other ships, and costs only 10.

The Thradds are great for pissing people off, and better for making them engage in evasive manuvers. Cutting people off at the planet with a large burst of flame makes for some colorful metaphors directed in your direction.  ;)

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Umgah: Don't buy it unless you can use it really well.

Again, read the link for some fun things to do with the Umgah. It's cost is probably a little too low, in fact.

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Ur-Quan: Fighters are useless against most ships, and cannon is hard to hit with. Overpriced ship.

Fighters don't necessarily have to be "fighters". Mostly, I use them to hound people into the Dread itself, or the planet.

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Utwig: Banned, but can be beaten by Thraddash and Melnorme (and Chenjesu?) so its only use is to destroy the large ships (Kohr-Ah most importantly) and die.

Again, no banning allowed. You probably don't like it because it can slap up your Marauder with relative ease. :P It's cost is right about where it should be, and this ship has tons of staying power.

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VUX: Too slow to be any good.

The point of the Intruder isn't to catch your enemy right away, it's to slow them down to your speed so that you can chew them up with impunity. They're arrogant like that. :P

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Yehat: One of few ships that can beat a Kohr-Ah. Not many other uses, though.

DJ, I'm amazed you haven't ripped him in half for this remark yet. The Yehat are actually underpriced. They don't have any "special" special opponents, but that's because they kick ass in general. Like the Probe, it's all about timing.

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Zoqfot: I use it only to kill Earth cruisers.

This ship is great for smoking any slowships. Dreads, Maulers, Avengers, Podships...all fall to the Gatling Cannon eventually. Just don't get caught by too much fire, as 10 crew ain't much. Cost? Probably too low.

There. I spoke my mind. Man, I need to learn how to make URLs into single words instead of huuuge long strings, cus that's just ugly.


Title: Re: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: Tiberian on February 07, 2004, 10:10:47 pm
to make it short:

No ship should ever be banned from melee. That's like saying "f**k you Fred and Paul, this sucks" Every ship can be destroyed with a right ship and a skillful captain.


Title: Re: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on February 08, 2004, 12:07:08 am
I wasn't here for a while but I have one comment:(Here it comes Necro..):
WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!?!?! THE TERMINATOR IS THE BEST SHIP EVER! IT CAN BEAT EVERY SINGLE SHIP, HUMAN OR COMPUTER!

Now I go back to relax...


Title: Re: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: Chrispy on February 08, 2004, 02:58:45 am
Different people focus more on different ships. I don't very skilled with the marauder, and I almost never use the dreadnaught. I'm sure some people would find that very odd.


Title: Re: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: Fsi-Dib on February 08, 2004, 01:39:22 pm
Whoo, again a discussion like this. I like these.

But the only things I have something to say of are Probe and Marauder. Firstly, I loath Marauder. It's boring because it's so powerful.

Probe on the other hand ... can beat almost anything computer controlled ... the only ones it can't are ... I can't name one. Of course some are a very difficult, but not impossible. Still I say the price is stable, thus you rarely can avoid crew lossage.


Title: Re: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: Chrispy on February 08, 2004, 06:42:59 pm
The probe is much like the fury.
It is fast and menouveable. The extra crew makes up for the lack of regenerations.
The probes weapon is better, and ability to reverse is better.
The probes fuel regeneration is worst.


Title: Re: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on February 08, 2004, 06:58:02 pm
I really don't know why you all complain about the Fury... A little bit of practice and you "master" it.


Title: Re: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: FalconMWC on February 08, 2004, 11:49:36 pm
When it comes to ship prices in melee - It really all comes down to this: What ever ship you like or play the best you think gets a better rating. So don't complain if your fav. ship is the underdog! - All the more reason to suprise you melee enemy!


Title: Re: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: Chrispy on February 09, 2004, 02:55:03 am
I love the fury. Fury's kick ass.


Title: Re: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: Shiver on February 09, 2004, 04:19:22 am
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I love the fury. Fury's kick ass.


I don't. The Fury is probably the ship I'm the least proficient with. When it comes to speed demons, I prefer the Skiff by far.


Title: Re: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: Chrispy on February 09, 2004, 04:22:01 am
They both have their merrits


Title: Re: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on February 09, 2004, 08:15:16 pm
Skiff is easier to use, and it has its own advantages while the Fury has more speed, more firepower and more crew.


Title: Re: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: Lukipela on February 09, 2004, 09:52:19 pm
And yet, none of them possess the grace and undying valour present in any Shofixti Scout. If only all races were so honourable. So loyal. So dutiful.

Sigh....


Title: Re: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: NECRO-99 on February 10, 2004, 12:45:13 am
I hope that quote wasn't aimed at me, Jiffy.

Poor Lukipela, I think I see fur growing on that Umgasynth(tm) body of yours. How many races are you going to become like?


Title: Re: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: FalconMWC on February 10, 2004, 12:45:46 am
Then why are you a androsynth?? Or you could make a race the Andfixti  - Maybe that is the race you are look for.

On - topic. I think a lot of people underestmaite the Chmmr ship. I am very good with it (can take out about 10 brutal Green and black Ur-quans.)  


Title: Re: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on February 10, 2004, 03:17:13 am
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Then why are you a androsynth?? Or you could make a race the Andfixti  - Maybe that is the race you are look for.

On - topic. I think a lot of people underestmaite the Chmmr ship. I am very good with it (can take out about 10 brutal Green and black Ur-quans.)  


Yea, on weak cyborg.


Title: Re: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: Shiver on February 10, 2004, 04:07:54 am
Avatars aren't built to take on multiple Ur-Quan ships. I doubt a person could blow up more than three if they played really well against the awesome AI or a decent player.


Title: Re: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: Zworag on February 10, 2004, 04:23:32 am
Marauder > Chmmr.

Marauder wins the battle about 75% of the time. Chmmr wins if he starts in correct position and acts before Marauder finds planet, or gets speed anyway.

I wish someone fixed the computer AI to use gravity whips.

Oh, and one of my new favourites is Zoqfot. A really cheap counter ship for Mycon, Earthling and even Androsynth with some luck and good timing with tongue. Guess some things in my first post were typed in too fast. :)


Title: Re: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on February 10, 2004, 04:37:03 am
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Marauder > Chmmr.

Marauder wins the battle about 75% of the time. Chmmr wins if he starts in correct position and acts before Marauder finds planet, or gets speed anyway.

I wish someone fixed the computer AI to use gravity whips.

Oh, and one of my new favourites is Zoqfot. A really cheap counter ship for Mycon, Earthling and even Androsynth with some luck and good timing with tongue. Guess some things in my first post were typed in too fast. :)


Mycon and Earthing use gravity whip as tactics, and other ships too but only to "rush" on you.


Title: Re: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: FalconMWC on February 10, 2004, 04:37:27 am
Sorry for the confusion, I can beat a record of 9 BUTAL's. See what you do is:
1. With a green ship. When you start at the oppisitte side you turn towards the ship and race towards it with engines blazing and secondary weapon overexerted. The green ship will TURN AWAY from you! Then Collide with the ship (turn on your laser a second before) and us that colliding force to get away before it can turn around. You should have taken about 1/3 to 1/2 of their health. Repeat as situations dictate.

2. With a black ship, approach while dodging blades. Then just out of range for the FRIED turn AWAY form the ship. The Blak ship will launch FRIED turn on your engines to escape it. Then turn around and you have a Black ship that is out of energy and laser food.

I will repeat - THIS ONLY WORKS ON AWSOME CPUS!!!!!!!!







   



Title: Re: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: Death 999 on February 10, 2004, 07:38:04 pm
Yeah, that setting that doesn't exist. (Weak, standard, awesome).

;)

More seriously, tricking the AI isn't exactly neuroscience.


Title: Re: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: FalconMWC on February 10, 2004, 08:40:20 pm
Well, they said it was impossible....

D_999 - I have Weak, Good, Awsome. Do I have a different version?


Title: Re: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: Fsi-Dib on February 10, 2004, 10:36:33 pm
I too have AIs named as Weak, Good and Awesome, just like it was in the original PC version.

As for the ship prices ... what would you say how many points would your mothership cost with 3 dynamos, 3 ATS, 3 PDS, 3 Hellborn Cannons and for the rest of the space shiva furnaces. ;D


Title: Re: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: FalconMWC on February 10, 2004, 10:51:43 pm
I will also assume that you have about 100 crew and 100 fuel somewere aboard as wel as full turing jets and thrusters.

Well - I would give it a perfect rating - Considering if you play it right you can kil anyone without a scratch. (Except maybe the chmmr (artifical gravity) and the Vux, (Close warp in factor)


Title: Re: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on February 10, 2004, 11:57:00 pm
Quote
I too have AIs named as Weak, Good and Awesome, just like it was in the original PC version.

As for the ship prices ... what would you say how many points would your mothership cost with 3 dynamos, 3 ATS, 3 PDS, 3 Hellborn Cannons and for the rest of the space shiva furnaces. ;D


Not plenty, since only 3 shivas are useful and you have only 1 crew ::)


Title: Re: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: Shiver on February 11, 2004, 05:45:29 am
I thought it was dynamos that topped off at 3, not shiva furnaces.


Title: Re: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on February 11, 2004, 06:05:55 am
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I thought it was dynamos that topped off at 3, not shiva furnaces.

Ah... my bad.


Title: Re: Ship prices in melee.
Post by: Fsi-Dib on February 11, 2004, 12:09:58 pm
Ah well, insert two crew pods as well. Then we have something I'd call a Squisher ... uuh I mean My Little Pony... no, that's not right... Vindicator. Yes, Precursor Vindicator.