The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

No matter what, this seems to end in a stalemate with both species completely wiped out. Yes, even the Ilwrath homeworld is clear after the war. Why is that? I don't like the way there's no explanation as to what occured. The way it should happen, there are two outcomes:

* The Thraddash destroy the Ilwrath fleet by a little bit and both species spend the next years recovering.

* The Ilwrath defeat the Thraddash fleet and then perform mass sacrificial rituals on their species. Horrific, yet slightly cool.

Either way, there's absolutely no reason for the Ilwrath homeworld to be cleared out.

Except:

1. Sneak Traddash attack.
2. Religious Zealots torch their own worlds after their fleet is defeated
3. Intervention by third unknown party (To be revealed in UQM 2).
4. Vengeful rogue Pkunks laying the smack down on a unprotected homeworld.

Pick one.

oouh, oouh, pick 4, pick4!!!

~DEFIANT

5. The Illwrath found a device in Hyperspace and took a look through it and found the true Orz. Now they have been *pulled*.

I think that the Ilwrath did the same thing that the Pkunk did. They moved their entire fleet and their population to the new killing grounds. This would have emptied out their home world.
Since the 'Wrath seem to be religious zealots this would almost make sense, especially if they expected the conflict to take a long time.

Except for the fact that you can still talk to the illwrath through castering AFTER all their spiders of moved.

That's possible, I guess.



And wipe out every member of the species down to the last creepy-crawly? Nah uh.



There is no UQM2 planned.



No.



I like this explanation best, but isn't the Ilwrath homeworld still occupied while the war is going on?

As I remember, the Ilwrath homeworld is out of the sphere of influance when they attack the pkunk. Why should they move all of them to attack the thraddash if they didn't do the same with the Pkunk?
Another point is that are all Ilwrath warriors? Each and everyone one of them "serve" in the fleet? The answer is no.

1. Quite possible, the Traddash move a bit faster than the Ilwrath. Also they have more experience doing actual figting (albeit mostly against eachother) than the Ilwrath, who just sacrifice things. [theory] The Ilwrath were probably mostly ordered around by the Quan during the great war, as I doubt the Quan trusted the judgment of religous fanatics enough to allow them tactical combat decisions, whilst the Treaddash have been warfari9ng for a long time and probably have all sorts of nasty battle strategies ready and waiting. [/theory]

2. Well, in a theocracy the priests have the highest power, no? So why don't we think mad zealous fanatical priests + weapons of mass destruction = Oblivion Possibly the Ilwrath have their own version of nuclear weapons, and if the ruling cast felt that the Ilwerath had ailed their gods and needed to becleansed, then.. BOOOM! This also explains why you can still communicate with the Ilwrath through the caster, a few ships were off planet and survived, and those Ilwrath are simply floating around somewhere util their breathing gas runs out.

3.That does not refute my point. Lets say they appear in TimeWarp. Or That TFB planned them for the sequel they never made. ame difference.

4. Yes

5. Dunno, I doubt it. As DJ said, if they don't move for the Pkunk, why'd they move for the Traddash?

5. as in post by Krulle?

Well, even the 'Synth still  lived awhile after they found the portal to IDF.

Or 5. as in Zeep-Eeps post?

Both are unlikely. Why would the Ilwrath burn their world when they leave it? Just because?
Okay, for THEM, that would be a good reason.

Maybe it is just different: The few survivors brought back cigars conquered in Thraddash space.
At home, all started to smoke, but forgot that the flamefuel everyone has at home (in case of necessary emergency tortures) are inflameable, and within a few hours, the complete spiders-nest was burnt down, all spiders cumbled in the heat (they smoked next to the fuel tanks - they are as unthinking as the young engineer who invented the Thraddash afterburner).

Enjoy,
Krulle

Doh! 5. as in Zeep-eeps post, I completely missed your comment. Sorry bout that.

As for your 5, I thik that kind of tech is beyond thwe Ilwrath. The Androsynth were smart. The Ilwrath were quite low tech on their own.

I know that the Ilwrath are notsmart enogh (they got most of their tech from the Ur-Quan), it has just been another proposal.

Enjoy!
Krulle

But are'nt they on the same "level" of mental smartness as the supox (the utwig help them), shofixti (yehat helped them).

I very much doubt that. In my mind, the Ilwrath are considerably less intelligent than either Supox or Shofixti. But that's just my opinion.

On another level I could point out that very seldom does a civilisation in the thralls of a strict disciplinarian religion make any significant progress despite the intelligence level of its members. Consider Christianity during the Middle Ages, or thechnical development in many Islamic states today. Even though there are intelligent indivduals, they really can't accomplish very much under such a strict regime.

I disagree completely. Christianity served to unite Europe under one banner. Islam made many technological advances... at first. I would say the muslims reached their pinnicle roughly a thousand years ago, then declined and haven't been particularly practical since. I suspect the Church of Dogar and Kazon (or whatever) brought the Ilwrath together and pushed their society forward once upon a time in just the same way.

To be more on topic, why do all of you come up with complecated theories about why the Ilwrath are all extinct and no one will simply agree that it's just a flaw? If they're supposed to be dead, there should be some explanation of it in the game.







In all likelihood, Lukipela is just trying to piss me off but I'll respond in spite of (or because of?) this. Every last Pkunk goes over to Yehat space. Since they share spiritual bonds with each other, it's likely that they all think the same way or at the very least they'd know to imprison any raging psychopaths within their species. Pkunk wouldn't separate from each other and they would never commit spontaneous genocide.

If the Pkunk are so spiritual and so friendly and would never, ever commit genocide, then why do they have war ships? Their little guns probably wouldn't do much against big, planet killing asteroids and they don't carry many "people", so they're not colonizing ships. I think that it is possible that a few Pkunk decided to stay behind to give the Illwrath a fresh taste of "birth".

They would porbaly do a hit-and-run mission - not enough to kill ALL the spidery creatures on the surface.

Remember, they don't want to become too good and wrap all the way around.

The ships are for their own protection. They thought that sort of thing up in the first place because they were originally blood-thirsty Yehat. Their temperment has changed drastically, however. I think if the Pkunk actually did do something as far-fetched as that, the game would have to mention it because it's not what one would expect at all.

Actually, I'm not trying to piss you off. But if you give me no better reason than "No", then I don't see why I should have to elaborate any further than "Yes".

As for the fabled Pkunk spirituality... Rememebr, it is even questionable in itself. A lot of what the pkunk tell you seems to be pure sillyness, and the few hints they manage to give you are clouded with their mumbo-jumbo. They might actually not be that spiritual, but rather New Ageish in their belief that they are spiritual as hell.

For vengefullness, I submit:



They say they are joking. But are they? I doubt it. Also their spiritual bonds might not be tight enough to shed light on every deception. Who knows what hides in the heart of Pkunk?


Oh, and for christinaity and the such. Regarding the Moslem countries, you are correct in a way, because you're saying what I was trying to say, even though I obviously wasn't clear enough. Yes, islamic scholars came up with a lot of things about a thosnad years ago, but after that their religion has been growing increasingly stricter. And liek it or not, the same goes for christianity. They did unite europe during the middle ages, but only to go to war against... well everyone. I think I read a quote somewhere that stated that the only technological advance to come out of the middle ages was an improved plow. I think it kind of was that whole "burning anything even vaguely heretic to our geocentric view of the world on the stake" thing that discouraged progress.

As always, if I have my facts wrong then feel free to correct me.

Wasn't it the geocentric view of the world?

You are of course correct. Post edited to bring out message. Cheers!

"Where everybody knows your name...." ahem, off topic ;D

What if the illwrath had a uprising! - Like what happened to the priests when they started listening to channel 44. You see if the revolted while the battle fleet was gone. There would be avery little of them left alive. Then the pkunk could come by and think that they were "just doing a hit a run - nothing major". When they really are taking out the rest of the spiders.  

The Ilwrath might have learned a thing or two from Thraddash Culture 3:  They might have learned that the Captain deceived them into attacking the Thraddash, so they might believe that they had lost the favor of Kazon the Deceiver.  So, in order not to anger Dogar the Destroyer, they decided to maim, torture, enslave, and in general brutalize
THEMSELVES!

So none of you agree with me that it's a bug in the game?

Well it defenatly is a bug when you can still caster them, but it says that it is not their homeworld any more. So yes, I agree with you that it is a bug. Now if they allowed you to caster only while the illwrath were there than I would say it is not a bug.

That's not the point. The idea is to find a suitable explanation as to what happens. Otherwise you can just start posting topics such as "Why is the Earthling cruiser close to a planet in size even though it only has 18 crew?" Bugs are bugs, but it's fun to corretc them through reasoning.

So, the Ilwrath and the Thraddash did not completely annihilate each other. That's not really possible. Besides, you must remember that people move under a leader, and if you kill all the leaders then a person must result to think for himself.
There are a few Ilwrath and Thraddash left, scattered around the place.
the Ilwrath departed from their homeworld, and so there's no one there to answer you; the Thraddash fleed from their homeworld or were 'removed' by the Ilwrath.

To summarize, what happend was statistics -
Statistically speaking (and the star map control-zones are, in fact, only statistics) the Thraddash *and* the Ilwrath, are so few in number that they can be said to be extinct.

Remind you of the shofixti? Hmmm .... wonder.....

Just like the Shofixti.

New side quest for Timewarp or UQM 2 or Star Control 3 (the real one) Or Star control 4! - Which ever one comes out first!  ;)

But it really could not happen as fast with the Thraddash or illwrath. We don't know how long it takes to reproduce.

If I remember correctly from Star Control 3 (the most sequel as it is going to guess I suppose), there were Illwrath still alive.  I don't remember if they were allied with humans but I believe they were because even the UrQuan became our friends (there was a very small group that start to revolt later).

I'm glad people have dedicated so much time to rereleasing this game, I love it and played it constantly on 3DO until the game would freeze when you screw the.... (blank - spoiler)

There were no Ilwrath in the unmentionable game, nor were they even discussed.

Actually, it isn't "impossible" for the two races to kill each other off. Assuming that the Ilwrath fleet destroys the Thraddish, with very few of the spiders remaining. At which point, their last few ships could crash land, fall into a star, get attacked by probes, etc.

I think that it's also possible that enough Ilwrath left their home world that the population eventually died off or fell into civil war. Maybe they have nukes that the commoners used against the foolish priests for sending their military away. That would explain why the home world still had people/spiders on it after the fleet left, but was wiped later.

Flies for thought.

Does the illwrath have nukes? As far as I can remember, only the "earthlings" have them.

And what do you base that on? I can't seem to recall any conversations specifying what races have access to which tech, and dfeinetly none stating "The Ilwrath do not understand fission", but it'd seem logical to assume that most spacefaring races have mastered it. And the more hostile races, such as Ilwrath and Traddash would probably have realized the destructive pottential inherent in fission. I seem to recall that the traddash meantion their nuclear weapons anyway.

Yes, the Thraddash did. That was one of "their glorious wars" that they did against themselves. However (maybe this is SC3) I remember hearing that the illwrath were given ships by the Ur-quan. Hold on.... Let me find the link.....

EDIT: - It is in this thread:



And.....



Now I am not sure whether this was mentioned in the game with these facts beign true. But if these facts are true than I don't think that the illwrath had nukes. (maybe though)!

Nukes, biological weapons, a Star Wars-like defence system. Any of these would probably be enough to wipe out a planet of spidies.
besides, whether the Ur-Quan gave them ships or whether the Ilwrath discovered space flight, seems moot. Once they had the tech and could (obviously) make more ships, they'd be able to reverse engineer the tech.

At this point we humans could probably kill off humanity, but we haven't travelled to another star. Not having warp drive doesn't remove the possiblity of mass destruction.

The Ilwrath recieved war vessel technologies from the Ur-Quan, specifically the cloaking shield. Also, if I'm not mistaken, the 'flamethrower' was another improvement added by the Ur-Quan, but I can't recall the exact quote (I recall them saying they had some poor projectile-firing cannon.. or was that the Thraddash telling us about the 'invention' of their afterburner? heheheh.. that was a good one  ;D)

Of course, all of this still leaves the question as to why they (the Ilwrath) answer the 'Caster when you return to their home system. I think that this may be a bug...or that there is some small group of highly religious Ilwrath on their home world that surived when everyone else left/died.

I'd like to assume that there are some priests (or other zealots) hiding underground after the rest of the population has died. They have the caster, some food and are very afraid. So of course they'd be happy to hear from their favorite gods.

And they have a place big enough and enough power to use it? I don't know....  I think that it is just a bug in the game.

We are talking about an advance alien tech. It can't be *big* as a size of an average computer! (Their caster/the power core to use it)

The Ilwrath don't need a mother-honking caster. It could be, as DJ pointed out, as small as a PC. Or it could be a simple, small radio. Keep in mind that the big, powerful caster is on your ship. Anyone with a caster down to an AM radio could probably tune in to listen/talk back.

We don't know how big they are, besides they it has to "traverse" a the entire distance from their homeworld to the ship. Now if the ship was at the edge then that is a long long long way! - About the distance between our sun and pluto!

For me, it is a bug if there is no other good explanations why it happens. I think we have here pretty good ones.

Yes, you have explanations, but to me they are not good enough because I see holes in them. Now maybe someone has a answer to those holes and I will agree and say that it is not a bug.

And if you listed some specific holes, then that would help a bundle.

(Dicussing the fact that a few hidden illwrath might have a stray caster.
(and that would take a lot of power).

There is one - got to go, but I will post another one tomorrow.