The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release => General UQM Discussion => Topic started by: Mage on December 06, 2002, 09:28:07 am



Title: Star Control 3?
Post by: Mage on December 06, 2002, 09:28:07 am
Never played the game, loved Star Control 2 but lost any interest in SC3 once I read some initial reviews and learned that it wasn't done by the original team (I'm actually not quite sure if that is even correct) but mostly because they made the Syreen bald (WTF?! How does an entire race suddenly GO BALD, they're supposed to be sexy anyways!) and that fact shows a massive amount of stupidity on the designers' part.

Anyways, my question is should I go get the game and play it?  I was curious about all the stuff about the Orz, Androsynth, and what the Arilou mention, mostly about the Orz and wtf they came from... does SC3 provide good answers?  Does it have the same level of humor of SC2?  


Title: Re: Star Control 3?
Post by: Zeroarmy on December 06, 2002, 10:19:12 am
Well the thing with the Syreen is that they were built instead of drawn. So, they looked strange to say the least (why they couldn't higher a model is beyond me). Now they do provide lots of answers, but they're a mix of real ideas by TFB and ideas that they came up with (they weren't well thought out if you ask me) so the entire thing is just a mess and it's more of a Star Trek game then a Star Control game (for non Sci-Fi fans like myself this is a bit hard to look past). And to make matters worse the new races aren't well thought out (most new ships look like flagpoles and one ship can repair it's hull, which all SC fans know doesn't happen when you're hit). Then they said the Supox were killed by the Orz simply because TFB wouldn't allow them to put it in the game. I could go on and on, but this post is getting too long as is. So, in short, I dislike the game (i refused to finish) but the main plot was ok and some say it's an ok game. If I were you I'd get the game just because I was a SC fan and decide how much of it I believed (the Precursors were cows in SCIII, which, although stupid, was TFB's idea at a joke).


Title: Re: Star Control 3?
Post by: PsiPhi on December 06, 2002, 01:59:19 pm
I played the original Star Control when it came out.  It was a relatively straightfoward game, based mostly around pure melee.  There were campaigns you could play, but they were fairly simple (compared to SC2s huge story).  Still, it was so much fun to play melee with another person.

When Star Control 2 was released, a good (new at the time) friend of mine and I played it together during part of the summer of 94 at his house (since he had the better computer).

We loved it.  We went nuts.  We kept logs (notebooks) of every star we visited, what was found, mineral-wise and in bios.  We actually worked very well as a team.  I had a knack for scouring the planets without losing crew ... well, also I had the insane patience to save before landing and reloading if we lost too much crew ... yeah, I know that's cheap, but I'm nuts, he didn't care and in the long run it ended up saving us a lot of time and RUs.

We were both good at battles, but he did most of them.  Together, we solved the puzzles, laughed at the jokes, and shared in the excitement of new discoverys.  I kept most of the logs and notes (again, the nuts factor).

Playing and completing SC2 together solidifed our friendship.  The day we took out the Sa-Matra ... I can tell you, there was a lot of cheering, yelling and perhaps even jumping around (and a bit of sadness because it was over ... we did start over with our notes to see how fast we could do it the second time ... much easier!)

So, now to how this relates to SC3.

When initial announcements were being made on the net about SC3, we were understandably ecstatic.  But, the more my friend read about it over the months, the more upset he got.  I still kept an open mind and made a point not to read too many reviews.  Most of what I knew about the game development, I got from him.

The first complaint and worry, of course, was that it was being developed by another group.
Then the news about the use of puppets.  He told me it was going to suck.  I was still hopeful and wanted to play it.

SC3 came out and he bought it regardless of his reservations.  Together, we started playing it.
Frankly, I liked it.  Although some of the puppets look poor, like the Syreen (YUCK!), I found a lot of them to be funny, especially with the voices. ("We are XChaggers!")  Since, I had never played the 3DO version of SC2 (then again, I've never even seen a 3DO), the idea of voices was exciting enough to me.

The colony management system was a bit strange at first, but then again, as stated early, I'm a bit nuts and actually enjoyed finding suitable worlds for each member and then setting them on their way.

The plot did have some holes, and dead ends, like the unfinished Kohr-Ah uprising story.  But, for the most part, I enjoyed the overall story, twists, and jokes.

I enjoyed how you systematically took apart the Crux.  Some of those race's solutions were hilarious.  Tell me you didn't laugh the first time you saw the DakTakLakPak "rebooted"?

I've heard a lot of people complain about the Precursor story, including me friend, but it seemed to fit ok with what is said about them in SC2 by the Slylandro.  Also, didn't you ever wonder why the Melnorme trader seemed so interested in BOTH bio info AND Rainbow worlds?  Plus the discovery that the "big bad guy" (with that hilarious accent - he was so much fun to anger) is not your biggest problem added that sense of urgency that SC2 had.

Plus, the elimination of Hyperspace, I feel actually improved the flow of the game.  Think about how much time is spent in SC2 looking at a red screen as your ship flies through Hyperspace.  God forbid you don't have full engines!  We used to spend Hyperspace time updating notes or discussing plot and strategy.  For SC2, it worked and is important to the story, but I was not sorry to see it go in SC3.

My friend did finish it, but to this day, he still doesn't feel it is the "true" sequel, which he is still waiting for.

I eventually bought SC3 myself, played through it again and enjoyed it the second time as well.

If you can still find it, get it and give it a shot.  Judge for yourself.  You may hate it, or like me, you may have some fun.

(Side note: I feel that the time to finish the UQM should not be altered.  You need that feeling that time is running out and you're not out for a joy ride.  Besides, if you really want to do that, get the Portal Spawner early, map all of quasi-space which is not hard if you save and reload, find all the rainbow worlds early, sell that data for tech first, info later, clean out a few systems which is much eaiser with full shuttle shielding, upgrade your ship into a melee nightmare and your all set to do what you want.  Of course to do all that immediately, you'd have to have either played the game before, or use a walkthrough which I DO NOT recommend.  Explore yourself!  That's half the fun of the game.  If you're really worried about time and fuel early in the game, save before you leave a star system for another.  When you get to the new one, if you don't like it, write down that it stinks, reload and try another.  The star systems are not random, so the notes are always good.  Yes, it is possible to finish the game in a few hours if you know exactly where things are and the best order to do things.)

Remember, have fun!

OH, one thing:  In SC3, ICOM (your on board computer which was modeled after HAL9000 from 2001) was a mistake!  Do NOT touch him!  He will completely ruin the game for you!  They should have just added a label to him that says "CHEAT HERE".


Title: Re: Star Control 3?
Post by: Shivam on December 06, 2002, 11:08:34 pm
wow.  i totally agree =)
Starcon 3 may not have been the opus that sc2 was, but it was still a lot of fun.  The Orz voice made the game for me =)




Title: Re: Star Control 3?
Post by: Presence on December 06, 2002, 11:19:08 pm
The second I noticed Legend Entertainment had done the game, I knew enough not to buy it. Legend more or less existed by buying rights to cool things and then churning out a substandard game based around it. Well perhaps some people liked Death Gate, Shanarra, and their other stuff, but I certainly did not. They were also among the worst of the "big box" contenders, shipping large quantities of air around the nation.


Title: Re: Star Control 3?
Post by: SunTzuX on December 06, 2002, 11:36:52 pm
I was totally unimpressed with SC3.   I had actually gone to the store to buy an entirely different game the day I bought SC3.  I had somehow missed that it had been released. I of course immediately bought it instead and rushed home.
At the time I didn't know it was made by a different developer, all though I figured it out soon enough.

Maybe I was naive, expecting the game to remain somewhat true to the SC2 in format.  Afterall SC1 and SC2 are very different, SC1 being more like a turn based strategy game/arcade combat and SC2 being RPG/arcade combat.   But after a few minutes of play I immedietly disliked SC3.   It reminded me of a a poorly done strategy game.  A master of orion interface (though horrid in implementation) , mixed in many poorly done quests, unrealted storyline, horific combat engine and then removed any element of SC2 that made you feel connected to the game.. like you were actually exploring, or that you were the main character and instead replaced it with the point and click interface.  Blah

Every few years I reinstall it, thinking to myself.. "Maybe I didn't give it enough of a chance" or that "Maybe my expectations after SC2 were too high, and with all the time thats passed I can look at it as a different game"  It never fails though, it was awful then and its awful now.  

I always thought the idea of controlling colonies might be interesting for a SC2 sequel.  But I would expect something more streamlined, with a much better interface.  And most of all it shouldn't take away from the gameplay itself but add to it.  Anyway don't mind me, once I get going about how horrible SC3 is its hard to stop.


Title: Re: Star Control 3?
Post by: Dave Morse on December 07, 2002, 12:22:08 am
I played 3 before 2.  I didn't like 3 enough to finish it, but man oh man were the VUX hilarious in 3.  (I haven't finished 2 yet, but I think I'm liking it enough to do so  ;D)


Title: Re: Star Control 3?
Post by: the grand fot on December 07, 2002, 01:41:45 am
I make no apologies and offer no qualifications for my loathing of SC3.

As soon as they attach the title "Star Control" to a game, they better be prepared for the comparisons to the rest of the series.   In offering a mediocre-at-best game as the sequel to one of the finest ever made, they deserve every poor review,  insult  and mockery that has been said about it.

If they wanted the game considered on its own merits, they shouldn't have attached the "star control" name to it.  As it is, they took the potential for an amazing series of games and crushed it into the tepid pile of code, and they deserve no sympathy for it.

The same argument holds against George Lucas and his recent star wars movies.  YOU HEAR THAT SOUND, GEORGE?  THAT'S PETER JACKSON WHISKING AWAY THE DREAMS OF A WHOLE GENERATION THAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN YOURS IF YOU MADE A DECENT MOVIE!

</rant>


Title: Re: Star Control 3?
Post by: Zeroarmy on December 07, 2002, 06:25:32 am
To help you decide you might want to go to http://www.classicgaming.com/starcontrol/sc3/sc3www.shtml It lists all the problems that make SCIII bad. Again, you might want to buy the game, besides this, just because your an SC fan (I know I would even after I heard all of this). But, just remember not to get your hopes up. Some ideas were by TFB, (most were weak ideas created by the devolpment team who worked on SCIII) but things like the fate of the Precursors was just that,  an idea. Personally I believe that if they worked on SCIII, themselves they would've stuck with their orginal idea of making them "Shaggy Ones."


Title: Re: Star Control 3?
Post by: Flewellyn on December 07, 2002, 03:26:46 pm
I remember when I got SC3 as a Hannukah present in 1995.  I was very very excited!  Wow!  A new Star Control!  I went and installed it right away.

My high hopes began to dim as soon as I saw the opening animation.  "Legend Entertainment" flashed across my screen, and I groaned, slapping my forehead with my hand.  I had played some other Legend games, and they had been, at best, mediocre.   Death Gate had sucked, and Companions of Xanth...oi.  And now those bastards, those hacks, had gone and tried to do Star Control?!   :'(  

Well, I played it anyway.  How bad could it be?   And to be fair, some FEW things in the game were interesting.  So here's a quick rundown of my impressions at the time.

Good Things:

I found the general "Eternal Ones" idea to be fascinating.  If you're into Lovecraftian horror (which I am), the idea of an Ancient Cosmic Evil that devours sentient life is quite compelling, and familiar.  Ties in nicely with the warnings the Arilou made in SC2 about "things...from beyond". And it was done fairly well, all things considering.  I had feared initially that you would end up MEETING the Eternal Ones, but I was glad to see that not even Legend had that little class.

The Precursors devolving themselves to hide from the Eternal Ones was another element I actually quite liked.  It's an ingenious solution!  And it's an excellent explanation for why they aren't around, and why their technology looks so...advanced.  It also tied in well with what the Slylandro had to say.

On the HyperMelee side of things, I was quite fond of many of the new ships...though I would have liked to have access to all the old ones, too.  Still, the new ships were quite fun, especially the little ones like the Daktaklakpak and the Vyro-Ingo.  I got quite good with those Vyro-Ingo!  I knew they would turn out to be my favorite ship as soon as I saw the manual say "these ships are really not very good for actually damaging an enemy, but may prove an annoyance."  The new Colony Ship, on the other hand, I knew was overpowered...and easy prey to my little dudes with attitudes!

Mediocre Things:

Having one or two of the races in the game worship the Precursors and strive to be like them would make sense.  After all, these ancient beings of enormous power who vanished mysteriously would command attention from just about anyone, and why shouldn't that attention occasionally turn into worship?  It seemed a bit much to have EVERYONE go that route, though.

The puppets were a bit...underwhelming.  I heard about the use of animatronics in the game while it was still in development, and had gotten very excited.  Wow, a new technical advancement!  This would make it a really cool game!  (Oh, how young I was...I still used Windows back then, so that shows what I knew.)  As it was, they worked okay, except for the humans and the Syreen.  I winced watching the Syreen, actually.  They were supposed to be space babes, not freaky smurfs!  And it occurred to me later that the time spent on getting the animatronics working might have been better spent working on other aspects of the game.

Some of the subplots were a bit contrived, and seemed silly.  Like the Mycon thingy.  I couldn't see much point in having the Mycon along in the first place...why would they ally with anybody?  They were too weird even for the Ur-Quan to deal with much of the time.  Also, the business with the Ur-Quan Kohr-Ah uprising...how was that supposed to work when Hyperspace wasn't working, and your ship was the only ride to another system?

Bad Things:

The music!  GODS, the music!  Why, why, WHY?!  SC2 had incredible music, why couldn't SC3 have followed its example?  I thought at first it was the fault of my sound hardware being kind of crappy, but then I realized: SC2 could sound good coming out of a PC speaker on a 286, there was no excuse for SC3 sounding so bad on a Pentium with a SoundBlaster AWE32.  And the CONSTANT drone of the background music...oy.  You could hear it underneath the animation music, even.  Didn't they know about suspending a background process?

The actual gameplay was lacking in several things, notably goodness.  I found myself wondering why it was important to build fleets of ships, colonies everywhere, and do lots of exploring, when nobody else in the quadrant even had a warp bubble drive.  And even if someone else did, it made mobility too much of a problem for there to be any real threat.  Enemy ships wouldn't attack mine, unless there was a plot reason.  If I built a colony right underneath a fleet of colonizing ships, they wouldn't notice.  I could ignore enemy ships, and they wouldn't respond to my presence unless I just hung around doing nothing.  

This tied into the worst thing about the game, I felt: you were led by the nose through it.  SC2 represents, to me, the best model for doing computer RPGs.  Present a universe, present a hook or two to draw people in...and then give them freedom to explore!  And let them screw up, with consequences!  If you didn't visit the ZoqFotPik in time, they would be wiped out.  If you didn't find out how to stop the Kohr-Ah in time, they would destroy all sentient life in the galaxy.  If you didn't do any number of things, you could continue to explore the galaxy, but bad things would happen!  It felt like what you did in the universe really mattered.  There were almost no clearly defined, obvious things you had to do.  Even buying information from the Melnorme would only give you information, and some of it (like the stuff about the Ultron) wasn't entirely accurate.  You had to make decisions.  YOU were in charge.

In SC3, by contrast, if you don't go the way the game wants you to...the game will go that way anyway.  If you don't go around digging for artifacts, you'll still get all the "we found this cool new artifact" messages.  If you didn't go to the Eltanin system when it collapsed and meet the Crux forces, the League would STILL declare war on the Crux.  At every turn, though you might have multiple choices, only one would be correct...and that one would be blatantly obvious as the correct choice.  Of COURSE you'll give the artifact to the aliens who want it!  Of COURSE you'll rush to the rescue of this or that alien race!  Of COURSE you won't join the Ploxis when they offer!  The game allowed you no real freedom.

They also took several plot hooks from the last game and ran them into the ground, or at least in the complete wrong direction, if you ask me.  The Ariloulaleelay, for example, gave the impression in SC2 that they had many reasons for wanting to help and watch over the Earth and the humans.  In SC3...oh, yeah, our DNA is compatible, they want us as organ donors.  Gee, thanks, Legend!  

And finding out that the Orz were allies of the Eternal Ones, the Mycon were built by the Precursors, etc., etc., etc.  Not EVERY plot element has to be tied up, guys!  And not everything has to relate to the one main storyline.  I, for one, did not WANT to find out that the Mycon were built by the precursors.  It took away a lot of the quiet sense of menace they projected to discover that, oh, no, they're not a collective consciousness bent on expansion for unknown reasons and with sinister goals, they're just malfunctioning terraforming biots!  Not to mention the Slylandro being a race that changed itself to escape the Eternal Ones...ya know, I liked the idea of them evolving IN that gas giant.  It made them more interesting.

I could mention just plain hating the Ploxis, but I'll save that.  :-)


Title: Re: Star Control 3?
Post by: Parker on December 07, 2002, 10:16:00 pm
Quote
And finding out that the Orz were allies of the Eternal Ones, the Mycon were built by the Precursors, etc., etc., etc.  Not EVERY plot element has to be tied up, guys!  And not everything has to relate to the one main storyline.  I, for one, did not WANT to find out that the Mycon were built by the precursors.  It took away a lot of the quiet sense of menace they projected to discover that, oh, no, they're not a collective consciousness bent on expansion for unknown reasons and with sinister goals, they're just malfunctioning terraforming biots!  
Actually I think it was TFB's own idea that the Mycon were the tools of the Precursors.  If you listen to their speech files, there are "flashbacks" where the Mycon repeat (presumably) the Precursors' spoken orders to them.


Title: Re: Star Control 3?
Post by: Kzzrn on December 08, 2002, 12:54:46 am
SC3 was absolutly crap, IMO. I had a few technical issues with it as well as some issues with the game itself.

Technical issues:
1.) When I would try and play the melee, it would replace the ships I wanted on each team with a random selection.
2.) The above happened when it even worked at all. Most of the time it would play the melee music for a couple seconds, refresh the screen (as if it was going to start), and return to the ship selection screen.
3.) The speech would often slur, especially with the Pkunk.
4.) When the critter was talking, or just after it would stop, there would be a faint, strange, kind of staticy sound in the background.
5.) Sometimes there would be sort of a "clicking" when there would be a sound of some sort sometimes (not always).

Note: All of these technical issues happened on 3 completly different computers.

I'm not even going to get into the gameplay issues (the eternally lame eternal1's, bad puppets, etc). There are just too many.


Title: Re: Star Control 3?
Post by: Nic. on December 08, 2002, 04:58:01 am
Quote
To help you decide you might want to go to http://www.classicgaming.com/starcontrol/sc3/sc3www.shtml It lists all the problems that make SCIII bad.

That list seems like so much whining to my eyes -- I see a long list of bullet points that all distill down to "SC3 is a bad game because it's not SC2"

Of course it's not SC2.  That was SC2's job. ;)

SC3 failed on its own as a game (tedious gameplay, uninspired story, unchallenging puzzles) even without drawing comparisons to the earlier sequels.  But if one does draw comparisons, I think what it tried to do was combine the strategy aspect of SC with the adventure/RPG aspect of SC2, and it failed miserably on both counts. (I'm not bitter, am I? :P)

Of course, this opinion of mine leaves me completely unenvious of those brave souls at the Timewarp project who have picked up the mantle of writing a Star Control sequel: if they make a "Star Control 2, part 2" style game, they'll be accused of being uninspired (or worse), and if they go with a different paradigm, they risk falling flat on their faces like SC3 did..  And as this particular alpha demonstrates, just because you're doing it for free doesn't mean that people won't bitch about it.. :)

Are there any Timewarp coders in the house?  Would you care to comment on what's being kept from SC and SC2, what's being thrown out, and what's all new, from a gameplay perspective?  The info pages have always been appetite-whettingly vague..


Title: Re: Star Control 3?
Post by: Zeroarmy on December 08, 2002, 05:33:44 am
Quote

That list seems like so much whining to my eyes -- I see a long list of bullet points that all distill down to "SC3 is a bad game because it's not SC2"


Well that's because that's just what it is. ;) Despite that, I do think it does give some good points to remember while playing the game, though. Like how some historical data from SCII was completely changed (game making 101: don't change real events!) and I completely agree with their take on ships (some new ones don't make sense, how can you repair hull to bring crew members back to life!?!). In either event it was the only pre-written list I could find, so it saved me some work.  :P


Title: Re: Star Control 3?
Post by: Fluffythemighty on December 08, 2002, 06:59:11 am
Sure, the game wasn't as good as SC2, but if that is the criteria you judge games on, you must not play many.  It was a above average game, but suffered from being in the shadow of SC2, which, to be fair, is a pretty big chip to be on it's metaphorical shoulder.

Some good features
-Some of the races were brilliant (Daktaklakpak, K'tang)
-3D starmap was suprisingly easy to use due to name filter, four different information types, rotation and the fuel spheres
-You really hated Plexor and his Crux, that accent alone is enough to inspire genocide.  You really HATED the guys, which made crushing their empire and anhilliating their flagship even more fun
-3D combat, while useless for actual fighting, looked pretty
-Some of it was hillarious.  e.g.
K'tang - What is the significaments of us being Dolts?
You - Er...  It's short for 'incredibly impressive, big, tough, conquering guy!
K'tang - Hmph.  We were in full awarements of that.  The K'tang are the biggest Dolt's in the quadrant!

It you want to give it a try, the game is up on theunderdogs.org anyway


Title: Re: Star Control 3?
Post by: Zeroarmy on December 08, 2002, 07:45:31 am
Ok, this has to stop now. All hardcore SC fans hated or want to give SCIII a chance, even though they find it to be a poor sequel to SCII. So, instead of you reading through our nonsense (nonsense to you) to decide, I wanted to find a game review to show you what someone, who reviews games for a living, thinks. And after a little bit of work I came across this one...

http://www.gamesdomain.com/gdreview/zones/reviews/pc/nov96/scon3.html

For those who don't want to read through it I'll give you the general idea. The author believed that it was a "space opera" and thought it would be good if it was a Star Trek game (horrible for non-Sci-Fi fans like myself). In addition he thought the ships and graphics were well done (shows how little he knew about SCII) and you were forced to do way too much clicking to get past alien nonsense. Also, if you're not going to read the whole review, at least read this quote...

"In the end, Star Control III is like many other adventures; go to place X, use item Y, go back to X, speak to Z, use the Thragian Floogleblender and get a new clue. If this is your cup of tea, then good luck to you; however, in most other adventures the artwork changes more significantly, certainly the locations and backgrounds do. Here, you're always at a star screen or speaking to an alien, though there are rare video cut-scenes in between."


Title: Re: Star Control 3?
Post by: Kzzrn on December 09, 2002, 09:29:55 pm
Quote
-Some of the races were brilliant (Daktaklakpak, K'tang)
-3D starmap was suprisingly easy to use due to name filter, four different information types, rotation and the fuel spheres
-You really hated Plexor and his Crux, that accent alone is enough to inspire genocide.  You really HATED the guys, which made crushing their empire and anhilliating their flagship even more fun
-3D combat, while useless for actual fighting, looked pretty


-Virtually all the new races were just an sc1/sc2 race warped into what oyu saw there.

-It wasn't hard to "crush" their empire. Their ships just sat there waiting for you and didn't move or anything.

-The 3D combat itself was ok, but they GFX were way too grey-ish and lifeless. Plus they ships started in exactly the same position each time (the VUX warped in right next to you, but in the same place everytime). The explosions were really lame though.


Title: Re: Star Control 3?
Post by: ErekLich on December 09, 2002, 10:33:10 pm
Star Control 3 had two things in which it did very well:

1) the 3D, infinite resolution Hypermelee.  It would have been better if the old ships had stuck around, but I like the new ships.  (Except the Vyro-Ingo.  I hate using them.)

2) The voice acting was spectacular!  I have listened to the voices in this alpha, and the voices from SC3.  the SC3 voices are infinitely better.  In addition to actully being able to UNDERSTAND the aliens, the actors -gasp- actually EMOTE!  Whoever did Niffiwan captured the spirit of hte Spathi race far, far better than the 3DO voice actor.  And the Orz voice in SC3 is great!  It actually clearly differentiates the lingual best-fits, AND the voice saying the dialog sounds like someone who would say that dialog, emoting in all the right places.

On all other points, SC3 was far worse than SC2.  I agree.


Title: Re: Star Control 3?
Post by: Relicals on December 10, 2002, 07:08:38 am
You think SC3 was bad, good thing SC4 or Starcon never made it out of the gate!

I mean, it looked cool, and got the community salivating again, at first, but can your really preserve TLF and gameplay of Starcontrol in 3d space?

SC3 wasn't a total waste of hard drive space, and melee was fun once i found out how to change from the horrible oblique perspective..


Title: Re: Star Control 3?
Post by: Zeroarmy on December 10, 2002, 07:22:13 am
Quote
You think SC3 was bad, good thing SC4 or Starcon never made it out of the gate!

I mean, it looked cool, and got the community salivating again, at first, but can your really preserve TLF and gameplay of Starcontrol in 3d space?

SC3 wasn't a total waste of hard drive space, and melee was fun once i found out how to change from the horrible oblique perspective..


Ha, good point. SCIV wasn't even supposed to have any of the original races in it (probably because TFB wouldn't let them do it this time) and so it's doubtful that any of the information of SCI or SCII would've been included. By doing something like that you're basically trying to create a while new fan base.  :-/


Title: Re: Star Control 3?
Post by: Garthor on December 10, 2002, 10:21:48 am
I believe the big question is: if TFB wouldn't let them use any of the races from the SC series, would there be humans in SC4?


Title: Re: Star Control 3?
Post by: Zeroarmy on December 10, 2002, 10:36:45 am
Quote
I believe the big question is: if TFB wouldn't let them use any of the races from the SC series, would there be humans in SC4?


Wow good point. When I first bought SCII I was annoyed to read that Humans are the ones who will win the war for the alliance (one reason I liked SCI was because Humans weren't the main race like in other games/tv shows). Then, after playing, I realized they had to do it so the dialog would be easier to understand and funnier (imagine if a Syreen said those things to a Chenjesu  ;D). So, if they weren't going to be in SCIV they'd have to re-work many ideas and make the race, you play, similar to Humans. However, it is most likely that they just took Humans and changed their ship/made them more advanced and didn't include their past according to SCI and SCII(you can't own rights to real life things). Either way it makes for a bad game, so I guess it's a good thing they scrapped the project.  :-/


Title: Re: Star Control 3?
Post by: Zeroarmy on December 10, 2002, 11:08:42 am
About the Human thing I found this on The Pages of Now and Forever:

"Fuchsia also found this in the Dec 2000 EGM issue number 137 page 156...... Apparently Accolade was making Starcon, a starcontrol game for the playstation, it was to be true 3d with climb and roll controls and you could play as any 1 of 3 alliances each with their own ending, many of the missions were actually the same mission with different objectives depending on which side you were (aka alliance one capture alliance 2 destroy alliance 3 defend) although much of the work was completed starcon for the playstation was permanently put on hold.... why? Accolade wasn't sure it would sell the kind of numbers it wanted.. and even though it was most of the way done it was put on a back burner and forgotten...."

Notice the line that I glowed. Being as you can play as different alliances I doubt Humans would've been in it (I bet they took the humor out of it then) as they can't be in all 3 alliances. Also read this other quote (the part that glows explains something that you might find interesting):

"Overall Captain, I am glad they decided to cancel this game. It did not look very good and seemed that it would not have been "worthy" of the name "Star Control". Many complained of the "Wing Commander" combat, however I found it an intriguing idea, only if all the original ships were able to be flown. This was not going to be the case, probably because of character property rights, so I am happy they did not release the game."

If you go and read the Starcon page you will see some screenshots and other things (I saw something having to do with an Ur-Quan, but I passed it by, for the moment, to post this). It's worth reading, if you haven't already, and worth re-reading if you have (I noticed things that I missed the first 2 times I read it). Incase you don't know where The Pages of Now and Forever are or can't find the link to the Star ControlIV page here's the direct link: http://www.classicgaming.com/starcontrol/starcon/

EDIT: I checked on that Ur-Quan thing and it seems that the Hyperium alliance has the Ur-Quan in it. They have 6 eyes (3 big, 3 small) and arms that come out of their heads (check the races page). The only thing is that they're yellow, instead of black, green, or even brown (trust me it's yellow). The name of the thing is Vice Marshall Ra-Gar (Ra-Gar sounds like an Ur-Quan name) and below it are two links to hear them speak (sounds nothing like them, but it says "Hear Ur-Quan speak"). If that picture really is the Ur-Quan I bet they messed up more then just their skin color (ships, history, why they're members/founders of a whole new alliance). Oh well, like I said before, I guess it's good that the game was dropped years ago.

BTW: If anyone cares the Pkunk are in the races section too, so I think they were allowed to have to orginal races in, just not the ships. Either way, it's doubtfull we'll ever know for sure.


Title: Re: Star Control 3?
Post by: stounedi on December 10, 2002, 06:51:28 pm
I started out with Starcontrol back when it was released. I played it with my 386/33 and was blasted away by its simple brilliance: the game was simple to play, yet challenging to master. It contained more strategic elements than most of the games in its time. Building mines, colonies and fortresses to defend them. Mines were needed to produce RU which needed for building new ships. Colonies provided crew for ships. I even today love playing SC1. SC1 is like "The Hobbit" from JRR Tolkien ;)

As off SC2, I can only say the same thing as off JRR Tolkiens "Lord of the Rings": It is the ultimate story. The One. Only complaint I have is in the beginning hyperspace traveling seemed endless :(.


First off. I dont think Starcontrol 3 is a bad game. Actually, I enjoyed Starcontrol 3.

The only bad thing is, that it is not "Starcontrol" as I know it: The best game ever played. So, since people have been expecting SC3 to be better than SC2, it must have been disappointment. But when I played it, I mostly enjoyed it. I didnt care about some of the stupid plot changes, most games in the time had those. Heck, still have. Precursors turning into cows really made me laugh. But I DIDNT consider it as a good ending for the SC3-trilogy. SC3 is like "Silmarillion" from JRR Tolkien. The basics were given and someone else screwed it up. Still it is mostly enjoyable.

Excuse my bad english and typos, my work day is about its end and I cannot even think straight now :D


Title: Re: Star Control 3?
Post by: PsiPhi on December 11, 2002, 05:51:13 am
Quote
The second I noticed Legend Entertainment had done the game, I knew enough not to buy it. Legend more or less existed by buying rights to cool things and then churning out a substandard game based around it. Well perhaps some people liked Death Gate, Shanarra, and their other stuff, but I certainly did not. They were also among the worst of the "big box" contenders, shipping large quantities of air around the nation.


This is quite funny Presence, because that was the EXACT same reaction my friend had when he found out Legend was involved.  I don't remember his reasons for disliking Legend, but that would make sense.

Flewellyn made a lot of good points too.  Although I don't agree completely with the significance of all of his points, they all come to mind.

(Possible spoilers for SC3 below)

To refresh my memory of SC3, I just played through the entire game this weekend.  (This is at least the third time I've played through the game)  And this time, I avoided ICOM for as long as possible.  And something interesting happened.  Because I knew what causes the end of the game to occur, I just did whatever I felt like, ignoring for the most part your first immediate goal: locating the scattered colonies of all the other League races.  I know that the Doog are really an unfair ship especially with their upgrade, so I just focused on getting them on my side ASAP.  In the process of not searching for the other races, I finally saw a LOT more of the poor coding in terms of keeping the overall story plot points linear.

For example, the Arilou appear at three points in the game.  I forget exactly what you do or where you go to trigger these appearances (except for the last one), but I managed to see them in this order: 2, 1, 3.  I already knew the plot of the game, but had I not, I would have been completely confused by this conversation.  Especially since we were talking about the Supox and I STILL had not even found the ORZ.
  Another thing happened this time that didn't happen the other times I played it.  For whatever reason, I did not find the DakTakLakPak translator (well, you don't really FIND it ... your tech team just shows up with it one day) until REALLY late in the game.  Yet, I had already told the Harika that the Daks bragged about the XChagger disease, found the cure, and convinced them to join me.  And yet, whenever I encountered a vivisector, all I heard was the gibberish.  In fact, I had my first meeting with Plexor before I found that translator.  During that conversation there are options that imply that you've had conversations with the Daks.  And yes, that conversation with Plexor can make very little sense, especially since I already had the Doogs on my side and he was bragging how useful they are.
  A third strange occurance related to the above: I found the Mother Ark Control Unit BEFORE having that Dak translator and I was able to get it fixed since I had cured the Harika disease.  Now, this is really strange because at this time, I still had not even MET the Chmmr, let alone heard of the bifurcator.  So, now I had a fixed Mmrmhrnm.  This was possible because I had already met the Owa, and acquired the scoop.  This adds to the confusion ... you can get the scoop and shuttle BEFORE you even know WHY you need them!
  On top of this, I was able to get the Eternal1 real name before I got that Dak translator.
  There was also something with the Lk and their demand for the Red Spiral rail.  Part of that conversation, if I recall, implies that you've spoken with the Daks, which I hadn't.

  Then there is the Ultron story.  The Utwig were one of the last colonies I had found, along with the Chmmr.  BUT, I was able to demand the Ultron FROM the VUX Renegades BEFORE I had even known it to be stolen.  I even had the Ultron "mostly" fixed BEFORE meeting the Utwig.

  Finally, the construction of the "meat grinder" aka the Sentience Collector.  It's strange because one of the items apparently comes from the Precursor, but I don't remember that in the conversation.  Not just that, but the piece he gave me was the one I'm supposed to get from the Daks ... the one that they used to supposedly prove that the XChaggers were not sentient.  I got the Sentient Collator from the Daks and yet it says that I got it from that Ortog.

  One thing I always found funny.  You can ask the Mycon to release as many Deep Children as you want, if you don't mind clicking through all those conversation choices over and over.  When it comes time to check the first planet for them, you will get as many Green Mycon ships as you bothered the Mycon for.  By this point in the game, you really should not be strapped for crew or ships, but having an instant squadron of green Mycon is really quite hilarious to me.

  I always found it foolish though that every time you build a new Doog colony, you can buy it ... umm, HELLO?!  I mean they are supposed to be stupid, but come on!

-PsiPhi


Title: Re: Star Control 3?
Post by: Kohr-Ah_Primat on April 06, 2003, 06:33:21 am
Quote
Also, didn't you ever wonder why the Melnorme trader seemed so interested in BOTH bio info AND Rainbow worlds?

I always thought that perhaps the reason they were interested in biological information was to search for ways to improve their own genetic information, to modify it. Remember, the Mael-Num fled from the Kohr-Ah eons ago, and when they reappeared as Melnorme, they are notably physically different (and probably much more competent and resourceful) from the Mael-Num that the Kohr-Ah pursued a long time ago. I imagine that they've modified their own race sufficiently so that the Kohr-Ah cannot correlate them from before-- otherwise I imagine the Kohr-Ah would vengefully focus their efforts on the one single race that so very narrowly escaped their grasp years ago.

Quote
From the surface came a plea... identical to the words you spoke a few moments ago.
The one-eyed creatures, the Mael-Num, asked so simply, so clearly
that we felt compelled to explain. While we did so, the Kzer-Za appeared.
They would not permit us to destroy, they said. Enslave, yes. Imprison, yes. But never destroy.
The moment was tense. Someone opened fire. The first Doctrinal War had begun.
While we fought, the Mael-Num escaped. We never found them again.

This would also explain why particularly powerful or resilient life forms are particularly valuable to the Melnorme, while relatively 'useless' ones like the flowers or the lavender slugs are worth almost nothing.
Quote

Actually I think it was TFB's own idea that the Mycon were the tools of the Precursors.  If you listen to their speech files, there are "flashbacks" where the Mycon repeat (presumably) the Precursors' spoken orders to them.

Based on what the Umgah say about the Mycon being genetically engineered:

Quote
We found that pretty hard understand, so when nobody looking, we clonk one on head
bring it back here to homeworld and slice it up for detailed study.
Those guys not product of ANY natural evolutionary process
they constructs!... some kind of multi-purpose biological tool.
We don't know who made them or for what purpose
but they WAY beyond anything we ever heard of.

I always figured the Mycon were tools of some malicious race that used them to eliminate/prevent sentinent life on other planets. Using them as some sort of galactic 'disinfectant' to clear out all the competition before the master race moves in. At which point they might utilize some sort of auto-destruct code (like the Slyandro Probe) or other means of easily eliminating all the rampant Mycons.

The 'flashbacks' the Mycon has:
Quote

`...the system requires more energy. A convenient source lies beneath the crust...'
`...incorporation of dense amphibole fibers ensure survival in environmental extremes...'
`...entry of noise into the signal is unavoidable. We must include a filtering mechanism...'
`...Survival is a priority. Expansion is a priority. Processing is a priority...'
`...look... think... act... look... learn... remember... teach...look... think...'
`... planetary transformer biot 94-18: take your place at the dais...'

...don't necessarily indicate that their creator race was the Precursors. Just some race that created them to convert habitable worlds into inhabitable ones.