The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release => General UQM Discussion => Topic started by: Captain Smith on September 27, 2004, 01:00:09 pm



Title: Different Scoring Idea for Melee
Post by: Captain Smith on September 27, 2004, 01:00:09 pm
Just a different scoring idea for melee that I came up with that might be good as an option for post 1.0 UQM.  It was pretty fun for me anyway and might be for others.  This would probably work best only against the computer, but could be applied in a way to two player too I'm sure.

Endurance melee - it could be turned into an arcade game almost.  The basic idea is instead of melee group against melee group and game over when one side ends, keep going until the player loses all of their ships.  I played a couple of games like this and it was pretty fun.

Rules:

1) It works like regular melee except the computer ships keep coming until you lose all of your ships.  To simulate this I kept playing consecutive games against the melee set I had set up for the computer.

2) If you finish out against the computer melee ships, you lose all the ships you've lost (the ones with X's through them) and then replay the full compliment of computer ships with what you had left.  To simulate this I deleted the ships I lost between games through the edit function and then continued with a new game under the same terms.

3) For the ship you finish out with, you get the crew back you lost for the next round.  Of course, I couldn't do too much about that in playing regular melee, but it seems like a good rule.

4) Scoring possibility: Total point value of all the ships you destroy.  Alternatively to make the ships you start out with be a factor, the score can be some ratio of the ships you destroy versus what you start out with.  Of course you could play with giving bonuses for beating high point ships with low point ones, round bonuses, etc, etc, whatever you wanted to do.

5) If it were implemented in code, you could forget the computer melee set too and just randomly send all ships against the player.

In playing this I saw a lot of good possibilities.  A chance to prove your worth with some ships you might not normally use, and get to practice on them.  Some strategy there too in ship selection, since you'd have to think to the future, possibly.

So what do people think?


Title: Re: Different Scoring Idea for Melee
Post by: Sander Scamper on September 27, 2004, 02:26:39 pm
Brilliant, I love it.

Now, the question is, when will 1.0 be finished.
If anyone tells me "When it's done" I'll scream =p


Title: Re: Different Scoring Idea for Melee
Post by: Michael Martin on September 27, 2004, 02:43:36 pm
You expect it to be done when it ISN'T done?   :o  That hurts my poor little brain.


Title: Re: Different Scoring Idea for Melee
Post by: Bartholomew on September 27, 2004, 02:52:48 pm
Don't worry. It hurts my big brain.


Title: Re: Different Scoring Idea for Melee
Post by: Megagun on September 27, 2004, 08:44:58 pm
It's a nice idea, Captain Smith.. :)
Going to try it out, soon..

Perhaps even make Advanced Melee options, and have "presets" for them, too?

Some Melee options (switches, either on or off):
*Full Fleets (all ships, so you don't have to make a selection)
*Endurance Mode  (Captain Smith's basic idea concept)
*Random Melee (you are only able to select a random ship)
*Random Ships (you get a random fleet at the start of a game)
*RU Mode (you get a certain ammount of RU (cash) to spend on ships, You can't exceed this. You get a certain ammount of RU when you win a game (depends on the RU spent by your opponent) and are able to buy stuff with that for the next round (when in Round Mode))
*Round Mode (simple "best of" mechanism. Useful in combination with "RU Mode")
*Time Mode (adds a timer. When it reaches zero, the game's over and the person with the most Points left wins)
*Vindicator Mode (both teams get one Vindicator (the precursor flagship) and get to fit it at the start of a game. They get max RU when "RU Mode" is off, so this would be good in combination with "RU Mode")
*Sa-Matra Mode (basically a battle against the Sa-Matra.. Player vs Comp only)

And some variables which you should be able to alter:
*Number of asteroids
*Number of planets
*Planet's gravity
*Field Size (Melee gamefield size, yes.)
*Speed (for "frenzy" stuff.. :) )
*Number of ships (useful for "Random Ships" Melee option)
*Number of rounds
*Timer number (sets the timer for "Time Mode")
*Handicap 1 (default: 0. Changes Handicap for player 1)
*Handicap 2 (default: 0. Changes Handicap for player 2)


Back to "Presets".. Presets will just be a load and savable set of options. Imagine it like a list at the top of the Advanced Melee options screen. When you select something from it (like "Normal Melee"), it changes the settings of all the stuff I mentioned before.. When you change some of the settings after you've loaded a Preset, the Preset-list will change to "Custom".. Ofcourse, some settings will turn into "disabled" when you select certain modes... IE it wouldn't make any sense to have "Random Melee" in combination with "Vindicator Mode"...

Most of these settings (especially the variables, like number of asteroids) will be fairly easy to code (I think), and will suffice with commandline options in early betas. However, a settings screen would be nice in later versions of it.

(argh. I've typed too much.. poor fingers)
I'd be glad to hear other people's opinions/ideas about this.. Off to try the Endurance thing Captain Smith came up with.. ^^


Title: Re: Different Scoring Idea for Melee
Post by: Captain Smith on September 28, 2004, 12:35:41 am
I just thought of a way to make the endurance melee concept work in two player.  Let each player select their ships, then when one side is destroyed, each player gets to select ships with the same point value as what they destroyed on the other side.  Game ends when one side runs out of points and ships.

An example:  Player 1 takes a melee group of 228 pts, and Player 2 takes a melee group of 227 points.  End of round, Player 2 wins.  So player 2 gets 228 pts to allocate for the next round.  Player 1, let's say destroys 190 pts of player 2's ships in his losing effort.  He gets 190 pts in the next round to allocate for new ships.  Game continues until one player runs out of ships, AND points to allocate for new ships.

Quote
This would probably work best only against the computer, but could be applied in a way to two player too I'm sure.



Title: Re: Different Scoring Idea for Melee
Post by: Shiver on September 28, 2004, 12:47:30 am
I'd like to see souped up "boss" ships on the enemy side in these Arcade modes. Like a Super Mycon Podship that has a glowing aura around it that can shrug off 50% of the damage you do and regenerates energy a little faster.


Title: Re: Different Scoring Idea for Melee
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on September 28, 2004, 05:25:11 am
Brilliant ideas here!

Except for Shiver...


Title: Re: Different Scoring Idea for Melee
Post by: FalconMWC on September 28, 2004, 05:28:20 am
Well, I think the idea for a ship that is a bit better than normal is good. Like, if you were ever to get to ZEX by ship-to-ship combat, you could face a little bit longer laser or faster recharge, etc.

The mycon idea I don't like, though I do like the general idea.


Title: Re: Different Scoring Idea for Melee
Post by: Shiver on September 28, 2004, 06:32:00 am
Quote
Brilliant ideas here!

Except for Shiver...


(http://web.onetel.net.uk/~alishia/icon_dancing.gif) Deep Jiffa can go screw himself because he hasn't ever made even one insightful post on this whole forum! (http://web.onetel.net.uk/~alishia/icon_dancing.gif)


Title: Re: Different Scoring Idea for Melee
Post by: Terminator on September 28, 2004, 08:11:31 am
Quote
I'd like to see souped up "boss" ships on the enemy side in these Arcade modes. Like a Super Mycon Podship that has a glowing aura around it that can shrug off 50% of the damage you do and regenerates energy a little faster.


Wrong SC this is Star Control not StarCraft.


Title: Re: Different Scoring Idea for Melee
Post by: Shiver on September 28, 2004, 08:29:59 am
Quote


Wrong SC this is Star Control not StarCraft.


I've played both and can safely say that the above statement fails to make any sense.

Since I only spent about 30 seconds considering that idea, let me try and sell it better: I'm tired of wading through large numbers of easy enemy ships. I want to fight something can kill me a dozen times before I beat it. Ideally this would involve a supergenius AI instead of making ultra-powerful cheese ships, but that would be very hard to program. The idea I threw down does not sound all that difficult to implement in comparison.


Title: Re: Different Scoring Idea for Melee
Post by: Captain Smith on September 28, 2004, 01:36:13 pm
Not that difficult and an idea.  Actually I've done it with Star Control 2 using a ship editor.  Of course, some ships aren't well suited to be edited because they won't get harder unless some of their default functions are changed (like the Melnorme and its generation of the red fear balls), but a lot of them are interesting to mod and fight.

Like the last one I did was souping up the Ur-Quan so it fires the fusion cannon 4 times faster and consequently using 4 x less energy.  Quite a different challenge than the stock version.

Quote
I'm tired of wading through large numbers of easy enemy ships. I want to fight something can kill me a dozen times before I beat it.



Title: Re: Different Scoring Idea for Melee
Post by: Yurand on September 28, 2004, 02:28:05 pm
Quote
I'm tired of wading through large numbers of easy enemy ships. I want to fight something can kill me a dozen times before I beat it. Ideally this would involve a supergenius AI instead of making ultra-powerful cheese ships, but that would be very hard to program. The idea I threw down does not sound all that difficult to implement in comparison.


Download TW-Light and try to fight Alary Battlecruiser
https://developer.berlios.de/project/showfiles.php?group_id=2082&release_id=3480

Or you can select several computer players against you in team. Lets see how long you survive.


Title: Re: Different Scoring Idea for Melee
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on September 28, 2004, 06:01:51 pm
Quote


(http://web.onetel.net.uk/~alishia/icon_dancing.gif) Deep Jiffa can go screw himself because he hasn't ever made even one insightful post on this whole forum! (http://web.onetel.net.uk/~alishia/icon_dancing.gif)


Actually I did! Not many but I had mine. Don't forget that I have the dancing smiles, the lady on the left, another censored lady and ofcourse the two pinguins ;D


Title: Re: Different Scoring Idea for Melee
Post by: Sander Scamper on September 28, 2004, 06:32:40 pm
This is a discussion forum, and Shiver's idea was a brilliant idea, and it opens up many many different arcade avenues. Myself, I would like the try fighting a Chmmr with a MUCH longer laser, no tractor ability, and 8 zapsats =p

I don't get the SC thing either *shrug*.


Title: Re: Different Scoring Idea for Melee
Post by: Death 999 on September 28, 2004, 09:55:01 pm
How about Ur-Quan or Chenjesu with improved turning?

How about Mycon that only need to use half their battery to regenerate?

How about a Kohr-Ah with a FRIED that only takes a third of its battery and whose blades move 3/2 as quickly?

How about an Earthling cruiser with a 4-damage point defense and improved acceleration?

But all of this is aside from the SCORING issues that were originally suggested. I would put forth an alternate scoring system -- actually an alternate battle format.

Instead of fighting serially, you have ships pair off randomly. Then the survivors pair off randomly, and so forth. Damage could be carried over, or not.


Title: Re: Different Scoring Idea for Melee
Post by: Shiver on September 28, 2004, 10:19:43 pm
Quote
Actually I did! Not many but I had mine. Don't forget that I have the dancing smiles, the lady on the left, another censored lady and ofcourse the two pinguins ;D


This is where I'm supposed to apologize for making a caustic remark, but I can't help but feel that you walked right into it.


Title: Re: Different Scoring Idea for Melee
Post by: FalconMWC on September 29, 2004, 01:40:41 am
I like your idea D_999, though I think it *might* be better for the players to pick their own ships simply without the other player knowing what it is.  


Title: Re: Different Scoring Idea for Melee
Post by: Death 999 on September 29, 2004, 08:30:54 pm
Hmm... in the event of different fleet sizes, sure.

That is, the player with fewer ships is obliged to field them all. The player with more ships can choose which to hold back. Then the arrangement between them is random. Or perhaps you 'draft' engagements -- one person engages a pair, then the second person engages a pair, and so on. VUX get to go first in this, for free (warp-in advantage).

After the first round, the player who had reserves last time (if either did) gets to allocate them. Then of the remaining ships, the fastest victories get to allocate first (instead of strict alternation).

For this purpose, Shofixti are considered to win even if they do not destroy the enemy.

Example:

Player 1: Shofixti, Utwig, Supox, Earthling
vs
Player 2: Chenjesu, Arilou, Syreen

Player 2 has no choice but to field all his ships.
Player 1 doesn't want to risk getting the Utwig gradually eaten up by the Arilou (which P2 is very good with) or DOGI'd to relative ineffectiveness by the Chenjesu, so she holds it back.

Player 2 sends the Arilou against the Supox, to prevent its mutual annihilation with the Shofixti or PDL-death by the Cruiser.
Player 1 sends the Cruiser against the Syreen
That leaves the Shofixti to go up against the Chenjesu.

Battle results:
Supox vs Arilou: Arilou in 3 minutes, 4 survivors
Cruiser vs Syreen: Earthling in 30 sec, 3 survivors
Shofixti vs. Chenjesu: Chenjesu in 12 sec, 27 survivors

New state:
P1: Earthling(3); Utwig(Reserve -- first)
P2: Arilou(4); Chenjesu(27)[fastest -- gets second pick]

The reserves from before, Player 1's Utwig, get to go next. She figures the Earthling could do some good against the Arilou, wearing it down 1 or 2 crew before being finished off. Clearly, the Utwig's shield will not be a factor in the remainder of the battle so she might as well face down the chenjesu right away.

After this round, it becomes trivial since there will be only one matchup at most (and given the outcome so far, it looks like there won't be another round)


Title: Re: Different Scoring Idea for Melee
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on September 29, 2004, 10:16:08 pm
Quote


This is where I'm supposed to apologize for making a caustic remark, but I can't help but feel that you walked right into it.

This is where I'm supposed to post a sabotage link that will make you scream like a small girl, but I don't have any links right now.


Title: Re: Different Scoring Idea for Melee
Post by: FalconMWC on September 29, 2004, 10:50:54 pm
Ok everyone! Break out the pillows!  ::)

Anyway, back on topic.....

D_999, That sounds like the best idea for a point system yet, though it would be slightly complicated if a player had like, ten ships. Then again, as long as the computer did it all, it would not be.....

hmm..... How about while still using D_999's idea, the players can pick their ships that they start with by points. For instance:

Player A has 50 points to spend, thus he/she buys a chmmr avartar {30} and a melnorme ship {18}. That would be the starting ships for player A.

Player B can have  a Thraddash {10} a Chenjesu {28} and a earthing cruiser. {11} Those would be the starting ships for player B.

Then we just follow the guidelines already set.

PS, I think that there should be a rule that allows no more than one kind of ship, Any thoughts?




Title: Re: Different Scoring Idea for Melee
Post by: Death 999 on October 01, 2004, 12:25:52 am
This is where house rules come in. Certainly, allowing such constraints to be stated and enforced in-game would be valuable for network play.

As far as how complex it is... hmm...

1) The player with more ships is asked which ships they want to put forward.

2) The computer determines who gets to pick next, automatically.

3) The computer then gives one player the ability to pick from the set of ships the computer names, and have it attack one of a set of ships the computer names.

4) They fight.

5) Repeat, except that sometimes one person gets to pick several times in a row, or sometimes the choice is forced.

Understanding the reasoning would involve a little complexity, but actually executing it would be quite simple, I'd think. Only gets at all complicated when the difference in fleet sizes gets large.