The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

I haven't found a similar thread dealng with this topic specifically, so here goes.

I'm trying to find out EXACTLY what the deal with the Arilou and the Orz are. Of course, I've played SCIII, but even then they keep the motives of the Orz a little ambiguous. Plus, I think there' smore to it than what's said in that game. Specifically, can ANY of you people give me your take on several aspects of those two races:

1) "Arilou are from *above*. Orz are from *below*." What the hell is this supposed to mean?

2) "We seek to trap *Nggn*, but they dart and leap. YOU cannot catch *Nggn*, do not even try. I don't think you are quite solid enough." What the hell is this supposed to mean?

3) Can anyone make a good translation of the Orz language, of the best terms to use for the terms in their lingual best-fits?

4) What ARE the Orz? The way they talk, it seems like they are actually one single entity that somehow projects multiple selves in our dimension ("I am Orz. I am one with many *fingers* My *fingers* spread into *heavy space*, etc. etc.). And what the hell DID they do with the Androsynth?

5) On the topic of Orz language, what do you think they mean when they say that the Taalo are playing *time tricks* on them in *pretty space*?

6) What does it mean when the Orz say that the Arilou are always *jumping in front*?

7) Again, what DID happen to the Androsynth? Why did they look up information about ghosts and poltergiests on their computers when recearching dimensional fatigue?

If any of you people have any take on these questions, or have any official information... please let me know! These questions have been bothering me for YEARS!

Thanks a bunch!

Well, I've gathered a few theories about some of this, despite the fact that it is really my first time through the game.  I was really interested in the Orz and such.


1) "Arilou are from *above*. Orz are from *below*." What the hell is this supposed to mean?

I think this one is one of the easier ones.  This could probably mean two different things.  Either the Orz and the Arilou are on similar dimensions, but not exactly the same, or they are from some other area of quasispace.  Wierd things happen in green places.

2) "We seek to trap *Nggn*, but they dart and leap. YOU cannot catch *Nggn*, do not even try. I don't think you are quite solid enough." What the hell is this supposed to mean?

*Nngn* is probbaly just something TFB thought up of as a sort of a quirk.  A sort of sport for the Arilou, maybe.  The quite solid enough is simply hard to explain.  Some other wierd property of things.

3) Can anyone make a good translation of the Orz language, of the best terms to use for the terms in their lingual best-fits?

I can't remember most of the mis-translations.  I think a common piece of pondering is the Arilou *quick babies* thing, which is probably just a slang term, or something of the like.

4) What ARE the Orz? The way they talk, it seems like they are actually one single entity that somehow projects multiple selves in our dimension ("I am Orz. I am one with many *fingers* My *fingers* spread into *heavy space*, etc. etc.). And what the hell DID they do with the Androsynth?

That's what I think, too.  It's either that, or a huge collective conciousness.

5) On the topic of Orz language, what do you think they mean when they say that the Taalo are playing *time tricks* on them in *pretty space*?

No clue =P.

6) What does it mean when the Orz say that the Arilou are always *jumping in front*?

Probably just means that the Arilou are getting in the way, hiding victims from them, etc.

7) Again, what DID happen to the Androsynth? Why did they look up information about ghosts and poltergiests on their computers when recearching dimensional fatigue?

This one only TFB can really answer.  From the information obtained from the Androsynth homeworld, the Androsynth found out too much about the Orz, and the Orz found them.  The Orz then would kill them somehow from a remote location, psychically killing them, or something of the sort.  That is why the scientist's cuts got worse on the planet's surface.  The ghosts stuff I don't know about.  Did they think that the Orz were ghosts?

While writing this, I thought of something else.  The Arilou mention being more solid than you (by saying you're not solid enough to do what they do).  If I remember correctly, the Orz are NOT "solid" like the Arilou.  Maybe this has some connection with the above/below?

Well I think it means that the Arilou are from nice dimension and the Orz are from a naster one that is hard to live in (sort of like heaven and hell).



Well Nggn are some sort of alien life form that lives or travels through Arilou's sphere of influence. I'm not sure what they are or even why the Arilou want to trap them. But, I believe that the reason we are not solid enough is because we don't have physic abilities (it's the only thing that the Arilou have over us as far as I can tell).



Well I saw someone post some translations in an old thread, but you can also find them here... http://www.classicgaming.com/starcontrol/scwc/orzese.shtml



Good question. I'm pretty sure that they are simply the *fingers* or "workers" of their leader (like a hive mind thing). And when they say they are not fully here, that is because they are simply scouts for the one who "controls" them. As for the Androsynth, the Spathi say that the Orz ate them, but then again the Spathi think the Precursors are big cowards.  ;) **Read 7 for more of my theories on this**



Well all I've gathered is that the Taalo can travel into their native space (common sense though). How they play *time tricks* on them, what that even means, and if the Taalo are just playing games (like the Umgah) or if they really dislike the Orz, is beyond me.



I've thought about this alot over the past few years and I've come to the conclusion that the Arilou, since they know the truth about the Orz, have been *jumping in front* of the Orz with the power of their fleet and thus preventing them from entering our space by the normal route. Then, the Androsynth showed the Orz where they were and when the Orz investigated, they found another way here.



Well according to the information, in their cities, their planet were "pounded with nukes" (sound like anyone who we know?) and all of the Androsynth were "grabbed." I would assume that they looked up information on ghosts and such because the Orz were haunting them (remember what happened to the landing party's leader when he found out too much information). In the end they either ate the Androsynth, (like SCIII and the Spathi say) which would explain why there were no bodies, or used the Androsynth's bodies as "vessles" that they allowed them to enter this space in a solid form (this is an idea that I came up with while typing this). What is also possible, is that the Androsynth were brought to *pretty space,* but that just doesn't fit in with the Orz becoming so upset and the Arilou hinting that if they didn't change our DNA the Orz would want us too (the Arilou wouldn't be so worried about them hurting us if the Orz simply wanted to relocate us).

EDIT: I'm sure you already knew most of this stuff, but it's the same answer you'll from most fans. The only way we'll know the answers to your good questions is if TFB tells us or they make a new game.  :-/

This is just me, but I think you guys are missing the point entirely.

The Arilou, and moreover the Orz, observe the Universe from an entirely DIFFERENT dimension. This comes with a lot of insane implications. One of the more obvious ones being that they would not likely not see time as a linear stream.

We literally don't have the mental capacity to even begin to contemplate how these guys think, because their point of view probably violates many common sense laws. e.g, Imagine a Universe where causality doesn't exist. EXACTLY: you can't.

So while the Orz and Arilou may occasionally actually mean something mundane when they say something weird, more often than not they're probably just talking about something inconceivable.

Philosophy people should know what I'm talking about; think Kant's phenomena vs. noumena. Anyone with knowledge about quantum physics should especially know what I'm talking about when I say that the Universe as we see it is an bizarre, inexplicable place full of impossible answers to strange questions.

I've always took this to mean that Quasi-space and Orz-space are in two opposite directions along the fourth spatial axis, the one which crosses dimensions.  True-space and Hyperspace are between.  Since there's a portal from Hyperspace to Quasi-space, I assume these two are adjacent, meaning Quasi-space is on top, followed by Hyperspace, then True-space, and finally, Orz-space on the bottom.  It's also worth noting that the Orz are fish-creatures.


This one is just too weird.  I suppose the best chance anyone has of making sense of what the Arilou say here is to figure out what "solid" means, perhaps based off the use of slippery, sticky, and other such Orz words, then think about what it would have to do with trapping something.  Then from there speculate on what a *Nggn* could be.


I try to interpret their *special* words as literally as possible.  For example, fingers reaching into our dimension makes sense.  Not being extradimensional beings, we don't have a word for what exactly the Orz said; the translator just picked the closest English word to what the Orz said.
Also, it is pretty clear that "dancing" refers to combat.  From the Orz's perspective it probably really is closer to dancing, as they don't seem to have a concept of death, and if you blow up one of their ships, you're only attacking their *fingers*.



That's my interpretation of fingers as well.  One single entity with many 4D cylindrical *fingers* intersecting 3D space appears in 3D to be multiple spheres, or *many bubbles*.


It's "time jokes."  It probably has something to do with the Taalo's extinction.


It sounds like it means the Arilou are intervening.  And as far as we know, us humans are the only ones the Arilou are protecting, which means the Orz are trying to get us.


There seem to be several indications that the Orz got them.  Since they're gone, it is entirely possible they're still alive in the Orz dimension.
The Arilou tell you of beings where simply knowing of them is dangerous because it allows them to *smell* you, and it sounds like the Orz are those beings.  That explains the Androsynths' fate.
It makes me wonder why the Orz don't want you asking about the Androsynth, though.  If it was something other than the Orz that did it, then the Orz wouldn't want you telling them about the Androsynth because that would put them at risk.
I guess it could also be that the Orz saw the Androsynth, and tried to pick them up out of our dimension, which killed them.  This made the Orz sad (they broke their new toy) and they don't want to be reminded of it.

*NGAHH!!!* You are NOT *HAPPY CAMPER*! Now is *dancing*! I am *clear*!   *Go-Go*
We have *party* in the *middle*! *Squirting colors* make good *special sauce*!    *Go-Go*

Maybe the Arilou did a buttload of smell changing within the past few years of the SC2 universe, before the Orz came, or maybe when the Androsynth were made using the standard human genome map, the DNA was the original stuff or something, while all human bodies had long since been changed by the Arilou, so when the Androsynth were made, they were more like humans before their "smell" was changed.

At any rate, if either of those is true, it makes sense why the Arilou tried to change humans' "smell".  If the Orz had finished up with the Androsynth and the Captain had waltzed right up to him asking for an alliance, at a time when all humans still had their original smell, the Orz would probably realize humans were directly related to the Androsynth and attempt to gobble the humans all up too.

Actually, I think that the Androsynth had no *smell* either.  It's clear to me that whatever the Orz did to the Androsynth, they only *smelled* our *level* once the Androsynth began their experiments with DF, making, as the Orz put it, *slippery places*.  In SC3, the Orz says that he/they couldn't even *smell* our *level* until the Androsynth did what they did.  My personal theory is that no one on our *level* has the *smell* that the Orz look for, not even the Androsynth, but the Orz took the Androsynth experiments as a way of signalling that they were ready for *the change*.

My theory on *the change* is that its some sort of awakening or fundamental change to a species.  the Orz seem to have the ability to cause *the change*, but only when the *Happy Campers* are ready.  I think that the Orz thought the Androsynth were ready, and tried to put htem through *the change*.  They seemed perplexed that het Androsynth resisted the change, whihc seems to indicate that the Orz thought they wanted it, then found out that they didn't.  I think the Taalo also underwent *the change* and now exist on a different *level* somehow.  The Orz have now found our *level*, and have his/their *fingers* on it to watch for when races ARE ready for *the change*.  (If you buy SC3 at all, this could even be what had happened to the Supox - they were ready, or at least the Orz thought they were.)

In any case, *the change* clearly doesn't leave any bodies behind.  So either the Androsynth DID undergo the change, and now exist, like the Taalo and the Supox, on a different *level*, or even an unsecuessful *change* destroys the bodies, in which case most if not all of the Androsynth are dead.

Time to *dance*

Here's a wild theory. The Androsynth went to the Orz dimension, since the Orz describe themselves as "fingers" they serve a higher something. What if by pulling the androsynth in they changed them, made them better, more advanced, perhaps energy beings. And since Orz space doesn't work the same most likely, so the Androsynth went insane and became the Eternal 1's!!!!

Okay, this was all explained in Star Conrol 3. For those who played it, fo you remember the Dak Tak Lak Pak saying that the Chengesu were Eternal1 summoning devices? They said that the Taalo were the real ones, and said that the Chengesu were a backup. The Chengesu part was a lie, but the Taalo probably WERE the summoning device. Regardless, the Orz are the backup, so they are evil. The Androsynth were finding out too much about the whole Eternal1 thing, and when they discovered the true name of the Eternal1's, the Eternal1's "smelled" them, and sent the Orz over there to remove them (they were probably consumed by the Eternal1's). I've been working on and Orz-English dictionary that I can piece together, and when it's done, I'll post it.

As for the Arilou, they have ulterior motives of thier own: when they became aware of the impending arrival of the Eternal1's, they fled into a newly discovered dimension: Quasi-Space. In Quasi-Space they were safe from the Eternal1 harvest, and could live out peaceful lives. However, there race was unable to adapt to the harch life in Quasi-Space and they started to die genetically. They would suffer mutations and things of that sort until they will eventually become extinct. To prevent this, they looked all over the galaxy for another race they could "borrow" genes from and use as genetic cattle, and the best fit they could find was humans, of course. They intend to use Earthlings to keep their own race alive for as long as posible. When the Arilou say that they are from *above*, they refer to Quasi-Space, while the Orz are from *below*, which is the realm of the Eternal1's. They try to trap te *Nnnngh* or whatever... this is the toughest part to truly understand. I believe that the *Nnngh* are some creation of the Eternal1 race, or are Eternal1's themselves. After all, the sooner they can stop them, the sooner the Arilou can return to True-Space. I hope this clears most of it up.

Yeah, the Arilou thing was explained in SC3...

But there's abolutely no evidence to suggest the Orz are in any way related to the Eternal1s.  In fact, there is evidence against it.

The Orz says: "... I could not even *smell* your *level*!  Can you believe!"  This indicates that the Orz have nothing to do with the Eternal1s, since the Eternal1s seeded this galxy, and therefore obviously know of it.

Wow! I didn't expect so many replies to this thread.. thank you, everyone!

Everyone had very interesting theories. I am interested to see how the latest one, how the Orz and Eternal1's are not related. In SCIII, it seemed like they were somehow related, but there might be evidence against it.

Oh another note, does anyone know what *parties* in the *middle* mean? Or why, if the Orz are projections from another reality, do Orz have a fish-like physique and breathe ethanol through gills?

Keep this topic alive, people! Thank you everyone again for submitting so many replies!

As for the lack of relation, you can't prove a negative, although I did already put some evidence suggesting there is no link.  Read my post!

as for *parties* in the *middle*, I think the Orz are just talking about something in *heavy space* (that's TrueSpace to us who don't speak Orz.)
The Orz say they are from *below* while the Arilou are from *above*.  Well, it sounds to me like TrueSpace is in between *below* and *above*, i.e. in the middle!

We all know what happened in SCIII and that is the point. The writers from SCIII made up nonsense from their little understanding of SCII. For example:

In SCII the Arilou say that after the Ur-Quan slave-shielded Humans the Arilou realized we were safe, so they left the 3 remaining races to face the Ur-Quan along (the Syreen, Shofixti, and the Yehat). Yet in SCIII they suggest that the Arilou created the Syreen. Now tell me why the Arilou wouldn't protect the Syreen, like they did with us? Why they didn't watch over their starbase? Why they didn't appear, to them, when they spent 75 years endlessly wandering around in space? Sure you could say that they didn't need their DNA to stay alive and so didn't care about them. But, that too is another messed up plot. In SCII the Arilou say they MODIFIED our DNA and changed our *smell* to protect us from those who seek to harm us. Modified meaning changing, not creating. So, if what SCIII said were to be true, the Arilou flat out lied in SCII. Yet, how do you explain changing our *smell.* According to the Orz we are not in for the same fate as the Androsynth because we have are different. And, according to common sense, the only way we could be different is that we were not able to see what the Arilou did to our DNA. So, when we copied our DNA, and made the Androsynth, their DNA was the same as ours was before the Arilou came along.

That is just one of the many ruined plots of SCIII, so when people, in this forum, ask a question about something having to do with cliff-hangers from SCII they tend to want to know what everyone thinks TFB had in mind and not the writers of SCIII.



I probably shouldn't argue with you about this, but I just can't help it. Anyway, if I remember correctly SCIII said that the Arilou's genes were breaking down because they have lived over 200 thousand years (longer then anyone else because the Eternal One's always feed off everyone before that). And since they refused to evolve, they would die. I don't know where you got your Quasi-Space thing, but if SCIII said that, and I forgot, that just goes to show another stupid idea by them. Also, I don't know what is with you and the Eternal One's, but there's no way that they created them (they weren't brought up in SCIII, so you shouldn't have put them into SCIII's ideas anyway) Why you ask? Well according to you the Arilou wish to trap the *Nnngn* because they have something to do with the Eternal One's. But, if that were true why would the Arilou say that they let them go because they don't like to be confined, when you ask what they do with them. Instead, it is suggested that the *Nnngn* are a rare species in which the Arilou simply wish to study (like the Melnorme buying alien life forms to study).

I found some nice theories and explanations at http://www.classicgaming.com/starcontrol/scsaga/races.htm .  What I've taken from it, is that there are multiple dimensions/planes of reality in the universe, and the Orz are from one w/ the same kind of creatures the Arilou want to keep the humans hidden from (though those creatures populate multiple dimensions/planes).  The Androsynth were basically just clones of humans, so it's not like they were "un-hidden", they just revealed themselves by experimenting with interdimensional fatigue, and that as a result of it, the Orz were able to take advantage of whatever they did, take their place, and stick them all in that dimension instead.  How exactly would Orz eat humans anyways?  They have a glass bowl on their head.   But, the Orz aren't even in the regular universe entirely... they said that the forms that you (the captain) see are like "fingers" or whatever...

Um about that "DNA modification"... there's no reason to think that the Androsynth's *smell* was different from regular humans', is there?  Unless they stated something like that in SC II.  Otherwise, there's no reason to think that since they were clones, they somehow lacked the proper DNA that would 'hide' them.  They just messed with what they shouldn't have, got "seen" (don't think they said "smelled", but "seen"), which is what the Arilou warn you about when you ask them about it.  That they would "see" you and etc.

Time for Matt's really strange theories!

This probably shouldn't be taken too seriously, and I'm probably wrong about a few points; still, I think it makes some sense. Anyway:

It's pretty obvious that the Arilou and the Orz both live in some sort of other dimensions; they may be linked in some way, but it doesn't matter too much. ("Perhaps you know of the Orz. Like us, they are dimensional travellers..."). Now, the Arilou state that "You are one of our... extended family, just as other sentients in other dimensions have their extended families." This statement means a lot: it tells us that there are more beings in other dimensions (likely far more than just the Arilou and Orz), and that most of them seem to take some interest in a species in our space. Perhaps all of the other-dimensional beings share a common source (for example, an evolutionary ancestor, or a common creator), and that causes all of them to want to look after a particular species in our dimension.

It's also clear that there are certain dangers to these other dimensions. The Arilou state that "If I tell you more, you will look where you could never look before and while you are looking you can and will be seen. You do not want to be seen." My theory is that there is some sort of creature living in those dimensions, that somehow *smells* us, and kills/devours us, or something... the details aren't important. Simply knowing about these other dimensions allows us to see into them, and thus be seen by these beings. Whatever they are, they are a great danger... but they are NOT the Orz. The Arilou, Orz, and any other beings in those dimensions are immune to that being; we are not. The Arilou have been slowly, and cautiously, working to change our *smell* and make us immune as well; they do this because they have an interest in us. The reasons for the caution will become clear soon.

The Taalo lived around the area that the Androsynth, and later the Orz, did. They were supposedly killed by the Ur-Quan when the Dnyarri took over, because they had a tremendous immunity to psychic manipulation. The Orz, however, refer to them as if they still exist, and say that they can travel in these other dimensions as well ("Arilou can *slide*. Also Taalo. Many can *slide*, but Orz are better of course."). How can this be? Well, I think that the Taalo were the species that the Orz were watching out for, until they were supposedly destroyed. In fact, while the Ur-Quan assumed that they killed all the Taalo, the Orz really "pulled them through" into their own dimension. Their rather impenetrable mind meant that the dangerous beings of that dimension were unable to sense them. Basically, the Taalo became inter-dimensional travellers; the efforts of the Orz were a success. The Arilou are slowly working to give us the same privilege.

So, the Taalo are now happy in some other dimension, and millennia pass. The Androsynth get created, and move into the space that the Taalo used to occupy. That space is right by an Orz portal (an "easy place," as the Arilou might say). The Orz decide to "adopt" the Androsynth, as the Taalo no longer need their help. They survive the war; after the war, however, the Orz sense some sort of danger for them... the details are not clear; perhaps they already know that the Kohr-Ah will win, and cleanse, unless something significant happens. In their panic, they try to bring the Androsynth into their dimension to save them... but the Orz, who are so unlike any beings in our space, don't realize the Androsynth's vulnerabilities. The Androsynth learn from the Orz about inter-dimensional travel, and begin experimenting; it is then that they *look* and are seen by the dangerous beings. They are pulled into the other dimension and destroyed by these beings; that explains why there are no bodies, and the searching for information about ghosts and poltergeists (they were not all pulled through at once; it was a several day process at least). The Orz are very upset; it's because they are upset that they refuse to talk about the situation. The reason that the Orz are suddenly showing up in that area of space is basically to invesigate the incident. So, all Androsynth are now dead; the Arilou are taking their time with us to avoid something similar. They want to protect us, but are careful to limit our exposure to other dimensions (Quasispace may be one of the safer dimensions). The reason that they state that the Orz are dangerous is that, in their opinion, they are careless; they did not realize the horrible consequences of their actions. They are not evil, they simply made a terrible mistake.

An interesting consequence of this theory is that the Taalo would exist, and may be able to calm the Ur-Quan... even "adopt" them.

I don't think it likely that the Taalo still exist.

look at every Orz converstation, EVER.  They never speak in any tense but present tense.  I think that *below* has no time, at least not as we know it.  Thus, the concept of past or future has no meaning, and the Orz speak only in present tense.  But in TrueSpace, time does exist, and so while to the Orz the Taalo are here, to us they WERE here.

One can expand this progression, and speculate that Quasispace has "more" time than TrueSpace.  The
Arilou talk about *time* rather than time, this indicates a different notion of time than we have.

That's a good link if you want information about SC in general, but it adds some theories from SCIII and there are some mistakes (it's not the author's fault, he just missed a few lines of dialog from SCII which semi-important issues). Anyway, the Orz say that they *smelled* True-space because of the Androsynth's experiments and by that you could be right. However, I think there's something more then meets the eye. Like the Orz said we're not in for the same fate as the Androsynth because we are "different" (different how? if we are the same as the Androsynth why did the landing party's leader get hurt and not disappear like the Androsynth?) and the Arilou saying they changed our DNA, so certain beings wouldn't be able to *smell* us and in doing so be able to harm us (sound like anyone we know?). Now the Orz said that what the Androsynth did allowed them to *smell* True-Space, but they don't say anything about *smelling* the Androsynth (then again they refuse to tell us what they did to them). What I think they mean is that the Androsynth allowed the Orz to find a way into our space other then the main route (remember the Orz say that the Arilou *jump in front* of them, so if that really means they're stopping them from entering this space, it means that there is a more common way to get here). Once here they *smelled* the Androsynth and wished to harm them because what the Arilou did to humans was added to our clones. After reading all this I see that, although most people believe this, it has little proof to back it up.  :-/

Well see that's where I think you're wrong. The Pkunk say that they had a vision where large rocks will come to life by an explosion. The only explosion we know of is when we use the Ultron to destroy the Sa-Matra. So, by that statement, I think TFB was setting up something for SCIII and if it were not the fact that SCIII was made by someone else, they would've been in it (it would've been a good way to get the Ur-Quan to stop their madness). Also, be aware that the Androsynth were able to open a window, to the Orz, not too far from the Taalo's homeworld. So, if they did *slide* into another dimension perhaps there was a window near by that allowed them to do so and that window was also the reason why they were able to let the Orz in with their modifications of the Precursor device (maybe if they tried it somewhere else it wouldn't have worked). If not so be it, but I it seems to be a pretty big coincidence that the Orz say that the Taalo *slid* into another dimension at the same general area where they entered True-space.

Oh and just for the record, the Taalo had to have some way of traveling quickly through hyperspace, otherwise they wouldn't have been able to help the Milieu very much. So, personally I believe they were able to enter Quasi-Space and they allowed the Ur-Quan to know this. Which would be why their Warp Pod was able to be modified to enter Quasi-Space (it had some technology taught to them by the Taalo, but the Taalo disappeared before they were willing to completely share all the details with them). Now if this is true, then it's very possible that they had the ability to go into another dimension when the Ur-Quan attacked them.

Hm, i forgot that the Orz said we were *different*... I wonder what they would think of the syreen.  Even Talaana said it was "more than coincidence" that humans/syreen were so genetically compatible... I think they were some offshoot of a common ancenstor, but relocated by the Arilou during early , early BC history in order to allow 'pure' humans to develop w/out genetic pollution...sort of explains the arilou's lack of interest in them...heh why am i bothering to speculate so much, they'll never make another star control (or at least one addressing these ideas)

I agree that we are related with the Syreen, but somehow it seems like the Arilou didn't have anything to do with it. This maybe an anti-SCIII statement or could even be the fact that the Arilou are my favorite race. But, from SCII it seemed that the Arilou were very kind when they wanted to. In SCII their kindness revolved around Humans because they saw us as their children. So, if the Syreen were really the "children" of the Arilou I'm almost certain they would care for them as much as they do for us. To prove this think about a real parent. They may hide things/lie to you (the Arilou not wanting to tell us about those who seek to harm us) but in the end they're doing it because they care for their children and would never want to see harm come to them (remember when the Arilou said how touched he was when he put his hand on your face and you smiled while sleeping).



Oh well, you could be right, speculation is probably pointless. But, this could be our last chance to do it. Once the UQM is out for awhile, less and less people will come here and the forum will be taken down. After which, if we still wish to keep talking about SC (which I won't be doing after there is no more UQM news) we'll have to go to one of the fan boards where you post something and a week later you'll get a reply. Then in a month you'll get another one and a good 3 months later you'll responded to every one of your 5 total replies. ;)

No one has suggested this yet AFAIK, but I think *Nggn* means the Orz.



Maybe they tried to help androsynth to the same place as Taalo, but Androsynth weren't "solid enough".



Same as catching the *Nggn*, but from Orz's point of view.



They looked up the information, when things started going wrong.



I'll add here, that I speak as if SC3 never existed:

In my opinion Taalo slided to another dimension.
"<Fwiffo> The Taalo LIVE!"

"<Fwiffo> In regards to the Androsynth: They were snagged by the entity who/which projected its fingers into our dimension (which looked to us as the Orz.)"

Can you explain why you think this? When you ask the Arilou why they are in this area of space (the Circini cluster) they say that they are here to catch *Nggn.* So that means that the *Nggn* live/pass through that area of space and the Orz half the sector from there.




It's a good theory, but like most of our theories it has little proof to back it up.  :-/ Personally I think the Orz aren't as nice as the Arilou, like some believe, but whatever.



Again can you explain? While it is possible that *jumping in front* could mean to *jump in front* to catch them. I doubt the Orz would stand by and allow this (they're not really pushovers). Plus the Orz make it seem like this is a long term thing. So, do you think the Arilou were looking for *Nggn* in the Orz's home dimension? Again I find it hard to believe, but it's an original idea.



Yeah we got that, but I think the guy wanted to know what went wrong, which later caused them to look up information.



Wait, is that what Fwiffo, the Spathi said in SCII or what someone, who calls themself Fwiffo, said in a forum/chat? If that happened in SCII I don't remember reading it...The only two times, that I remember, which talks about the Taalo was when the Pkunk said rocks will come alive by an explosion and the Orz, of course.

Depends on how you define "this area of space".



There isn't any proof. That's why these all are just theories. I always thought that Arilou are actually far more creepy than Orz.



There are many places of *slow time*. Arilou and Orz may have met in another dimension already. "Jumping in front" may suggest that they have interfered with each other's plans. IMO either of them are up to no good.



Exactly! It's from an irclog, and fwiffo is Paul + Fred, not a fictional character.

Well I define it as the Circini cluster, a.k.a the Arilou's sphere of influnce. I know the Arilou may talk in riddles, but I don't think they're stupid enough to confuse area where we are and sector where we are (remember they have spent many thousands of years getting to know us).



Oh hey I didn't mean that your idea had no proof, I meant that all of ours didn't. To be honest, I wanted to reply to your whole thread and I didn't have anything to respond to 2 with except, "I disagree with your theory, because I like mine better." So, I decided to add so random nonsense to fill to void.  :P



Well I do think that *jumping in front* has to do with interfering with their plans, like you said now. But, the thing I disagreed with you about was that the Orz were the *Nggn* and *jumping in front* meant catching them. Also, I agree with you, to a point, that they're both up to something, but, personally,  I think the Arilou are generally nice, although they can be creepy (remember that thing where he said he touched your face while you were sleeping).



Oh! I read some chat logs that were on The Pages of Now and Forever, but I don't keep up with this stuff on everyday, so I often forget the less important facts (like what their chat names are). The thing was your post looked like a copy from a chat, but you didn't explain, so I was thinking that it might be what Fwiffo said in the game (silly me ;) ). Anyway, thanks for posting that. I always assumed that the Taalo were alive, like the Orz said, (I believe most of what the game characters tell me as I doubt TFB came up with hours of dialog that was meant to trick us) until Erek posted his theory (it forced me to think a little, which, as we all know is hard work ;) ).

Hey Zeroarmy,

that Pkunk vision is about when you finish the Process!

on the other hand, I'm not saying its impossible for them to be alive.  I'm just saying its not as likely as some think.

When did they hint that the Arilou created the Syreen? Maybe they did, but if so, then they must have decided that because 99% of thier race was dead, there was no point in protecting the rest. Also, they DID lie about modifying us to protect us. That was their excuse but the real reason was for the DNA. And the reason they didn't evolve was because of Quasi-Space, and that's what I meant. Quasi-Space apparently is diffirent from True-Space enough so that they couldn't evolve properly.

And to those who think the Taalo were alive, they aren't. They were supposed to watch all the other races up to the point that the galaxy had reached its zenith in sentience, and then summon the Eternal1s to come and harvest them all. The taalo were killed, so the Orz took thier place. The *nggh* are likely the Orz, and they trap them to learn about them to find a way to defeat the Eternal1s but let them go, probably before they call the Eternal1s for help or something. It's not hard to piece together. The Orz join you so quick because they want to stop the Kohr-Ah from killing all the sentients and thus wasting the Eternal1s food.

Okay Jay,

As for this whole Taalo thing:  that's only true IF you beleive the Daktaklakpak!  And in my book, that's a HUGE if!  If you don't trust the Arilou, then the Daks ought to be the last ones you trust!  The Taalo were just another race, just like the Chenjesu.  Nobody summoned the Eternal1s.  Nobody.  The heralds just showed up one day.

As for *nggnn*, I don't think the *nggnn* are the Orz, because the Arilou SAY Orz when talking about the Orz!  the *nggnn* is just a bit of flavor that TFB put in.  Also, the Arilou would not let the *nggnn* go if they were dangerous, and the Arilou regard the Orz as dangerous.

I also don't buy the Orz/Eternal1 link.  First of all, TFB didn't even come up with the Eternal1s.  Second, if the Orz worked for the Eternal1s they wouldn't eat theri food, ie the Supox and the Androsynth!

How couldn't you believe the Orz/Eternal1 link?! The orz come and attack you with a big fleet days before the heralds arrive talking about... I forget, but that's not the point. Why else would they attack you. And I'm not relying solely on the daks for the scoop on the Taalo. The Orz are clearly the summoning devices and they talk of the taalo often as well.

And I know that the Arilou also call the Orz "Orz". They call them Orz when they want you to know what they are talking about but the *Nggh* is probably some other name for them. Also, tfb wanted to make the Orz creepier by doing things such as freaking out or something when you take them into Quaasi-Space. Maybe because that's where the Arilou take them when they catch them for the moments to study them or something. Finally, the Arilou say that you aren't solid enough to touch the *Nggh* and in SCIII the Orz say something about being more *solid* than you. It all fits.

Oh, and about the Orz not being about to smell you, he means that you don't know too much so he isn't going to kill you or feed you to the Eternal1s early or whatever they did to the Androsynth and Supox

Just before the Eternal1 arrival is the WORST time to attack if you work for them!

There is absolutely NO reason why the Eternal1s would want less food!  Killing people just before the harvest makes no sense at all!

As for talking about the Taalo, that's easily explained a hundred other ways.  The Taalo went through *the change*, the Orz ALWAYS speak in present tense, etc.

There is one more OVERWHELMING reason why the Orz have nothing to do with the Eternal1s:  the Eteral1s came from SC3.  NOT TFB.  Therefore, this entire debate is moot since nothing that comes from SC3 is part of the *real* timeline!

First of all, the Orz didn't want to wipe out humans, just kill you because they got worried. How else do you explain them attacking you at such a time? Also, I could be dead wrong, but perhaps TFB had basic plot idea involving the eternal1s and even if they didn't the game was decent. It's just looked at poorly because it had so much to live up to and was only good instead of great. I have a somewhat unique perspective in this because with the exception of some hazy memories of time long gone, I played SCIII first. If TFB makes another sequel it should not ignore SCIII. They should just make the next one as good as the second and leave the third one be because it was still worth playing and finishing, and I've played through it about as many times as I have with SCII (I've lost count).

Is there any connection between the *Nggn* and the Orzine cry of anger *Nnnnggaaahhhhh!*?

Another excellent point! Maybe the Arilou anmed them that after the shouts they make when they catch them for brief periods.

I never treid to say SC3 was a bad game, just that it wasn't TFB and not part of the real timeline.

Also, your idea of TFB independently coming up with the Orz being summoners is pure speculation.  How can they be put there to summon someone if they couldn't even *smell* our *level*?

besides which, TFB has many times indicated that what was done in SC3 is not what they had in mind for the plot.

I also played SC3 before SC or SC2, and I saw absolutely no link between the Orz and the Eternal1s.  Sure, they seem to have some ulterior motive, but you just have to remember that, originally, there was no "Eternal1s" idea.

Common sense dictates totally opposite.

If you make changes to information (whether it is a computer program, biological program aka. DNA or anything else), and after that make copy of that, the copy WILL include the changes made.

Nah. The androsyn did have arilou's *smell* modifications on them just as much as the humans, but their IDF experimentations somehow nullified the effect.

The Pkunk are not especially well known for being overly clear.
This might be a reference to the birth of Chmmr for all we know. Activation of the Sun Device would very well qualify as an explosion (of light).

BTW. The precursor bomb used to destroy thhe Sa-Matra is NOT the Ultron. Latter is not used to destroy anything, only given to the Utwig so they stop thinking mass-suicide and give us the real bomb.



I don't see any reason in game context to believe that Ur-Quan warp pods have anything special to them (they refer to it as being "sufficiently powerful", not having any special technology). ANY warp pod could be modified to become a Quasi-Space pod, Ur-Quan pods just happen to be only ones big enough to be of use on ship as massive as the flagship. The flagships own pod probably could've been used, but then you wouldn't have any hyperspace engines left!

Oh yeah you're right. I just checked it again and it says it's an explosion of light. Too many things about SC too keep strait.  :P



Don't you get it? TFB didn't come up with all of that dialog from SCII just to throw us off. SCIII changed the entire plot and they used their little understanding of SCII to make up lame excuses (ie: "We lied").



Ok you people are driving me nuts. People in this board don't want to hear about what happened in SCIII. It's not real for post of them. They want to know what TFB (the creators of SCI and SCII) had in mind for their version of SCIII (what would've been if they made it). Now I doubt TFB will go around answering our questions, so it's up to us to use the little bit of information, that we have, to come up with theories. Like I said before, SCIII took alot of plots and ruined them...Mstr already posted few lines from a chat where Fred and Paul said the Taalo are alive. So, again, whatever SCIII said did not really happen. It's like a someone taking information, from a fanfic, and saying that all that information is what will really happened in SCIV (see how silly that sounds?).

You know I'm getting sick of this; "They had so much to live up with," crap. It would be one thing if TFB made the game and it didn't match up to SCII (they would never ruin the plot though). But, it's another thing when someone, who knows very little about SC, takes their ideas, that took them a total of 3 seconds to come up with, and burns down a great game. What you ask? Well there are many reasons, but to save time I'll only talk about the problems that bugged me the most. Firstly, ships...

Ok as we all know there are 2 new ships that will give you back your crew. First, is the Harika/Yorn. Whenever you use your secondary weapon they lose some crew and it slowly builds back it's crew. Now I can understand that the Yorn breed quickly, but there's no way that they can have sex, give birth, and raise their child to adulthood all in 20 seconds. Especially when you're supposed to be in the middle of a battle! Second, is the Doog. Now I played SCI for years, before I even heard of SCII, so I would play with every single ship and because of that I got to know them all very well. In the beginning I would have to make up my own little stories for them, because all I had was the game (I think someone copied the game for my brother). Then I bought the Sega game and read through the Manuel. One of the first things I read was why the Mycon were able to regenerate their crew and I was very happy with this explanation. Well, time passes and I buy SCIII, only to read the manful and see that the Doog can repair their hull! Well I played the game and realized it's not something like the Slylandro probe of SCII where they take damage points (that's why the crew bar is grey). Instead the crew bar is completely green and every time you repair your hull you get a crew member back (it's the stupidest thing ever done to SC). Anyway, I could go on about other ships, but let's move on to the plot, since that's what this topic is about...

As I've said the Arilou, Taalo, Human, and Syreen plots are written by 5 year Olds. The others are bad too, but I'm going to complain about the flagship today. According to SCII the Captain went back to Vela II and built another flagship. Come on, that's just like those guys at the Timewarp forums. There was a whole thread about how you should go back to Vela and build another. What I found funny was that nobody tried to go back to Vela in the game. According to the story, that you read when you first start the game, you are supposed to return to Earth and send a ship for them. So, that the first thing I tried to do in my very first game. I found it a bit well hidden, (probably done on purpose) but halfway through I was able to find it. Well when I got to my beloved home I found an Ur-Quan Dreadnought guarding a slave-shielded world. When you talk to him he'll say that he saw my hyperspace single and was able to track it back to here. And now the baby has returned to the nest to die, or something like that. Well anyway, since when do the Ur-Quan allow their slaves to have Precursor technology to free themselves with? And don't give me that; "They couldn't find it" nonsense. The Ur-Quan used to find Precursor technology for a living and in SCIII they said that when they blew up something far below the Arctic surface and something else that was far below the ocean's floor, it was Precursor technology. So, finding all the technology should've been easy for them. Especially after the original factory was blown up by the colonists (remember they place nukes in the cave in case the hierarcy found them). Now instead of going on to rant about what they did to the Pkunk and Supox, let's move on to graphics...

Ok now this is going to short rant, but you can't honestly tell me you liked the way the game looked? The ships looked dark and grey, while the aliens looked like dried up fruit. For example: The Syreen looked like old women (they didn't even have hair) and Humans looked like Starship troopers (what the hell! is it that hard to stick with the uniform from SCI?). Lastly, we move on to SCIII as a whole...

*Sigh*I'm normally not one who rants about SCIII, but then again this is the first SC forums I've posted in, but anyway  what I can't understand is why people can't bring it up when it's clear the guy wants to know what would've happened if TFB made SCIII. You're basically asking to get flamed for your ideas. Anyway, I've said it before and I'll say it again. SCIII wasn't made by TFB as such there are many mistakes and problems with it. It's fine if you like that, but you can't honestly tell me that the things, which I've brought up thus far, make sense with the rest of SC. Like the Arilou, Orz, (yes they were supposed to be creepy but they're not stupid enough to work for the Eternal One's when they can simply hide in other dimensions to escape from them) Taalo, Precursors, etc. Instead of listing things, I'm asking you to just sit down and think about it. Play SCII and then SCIII and see if it really makes sense to you.

Legend has it that Franz Kafka used to read literary analyses of his writings, and laugh heartily at them.

Issac Asimov is credited with saying that if he were to take a college course on his own works, he would likely fail it.  (most likely apocryphal, and also credited to William Shakespeare)

In a similar vein, I can only imagine the reaction of one Mr. Fred Ford to threads like this.

That makes me smile.  Keep it up.  :)

I was thinking about that when I first played, but I think it's because they have interacted a lot in the past and so their language has similar roots.



We're not talking about real life common sense, we're talking about game common sense. Real common sense would say that it's impossible that so many sentient life forms could exist, especially when they're so close to each other. But, here we are playing this game. Anyway, my point was that the Arilou, with their ADVANCED technology had done something to our DNA to change our *smell.* Now do we know what *smell* is or even how it interacts with our DNA? No of course not. So, when our scientists, with their newly invented technology used their small microscopes and other things, to look at our DNA and make a copy of it, they were not able to see what the Arilou did. Remember, back in the day, we didn't even know that germs existed because we didn't have the technology to prove it. Anyway, my point is that it's possible that it was an idea that TFB came up with, but without any game proof we'll never know for sure.

A note on the Harika/Yorn ship, Zeroarmy.

This ship has one Harika and a bunch of Yorn.  Now the Harkia breed slowly, yes, but the Yorn?  They breed like Tribbles!

I mean, the guy eats about 5 of them every conversation!

So do I believe that the Yorn could increase their numbers every 20 seconds?  Yes, espescially if they have some sort of metabolic stimulant they use in battle.  Remember that we are talking about more Yorn, not more Harika.

As for the Doof, well, I basically think that the bums who made 3 screwed up, and didn't want to bother with different colored bars.  If it makes more sense to you, think of it as a grey bar.

On the Arilou:

FACT: The Arilou altered humanity's *smell*.
FACT: Humanity cannot detect these changes.
FACT: Humans made EXACT copies when creating the Androsynth.
INESCAPABLE CONCLUSION: The Androsynth DNA had to include the modifications, because our scientists wouldn't be ABLE to leave them out, even if they wanted to!

The Androsynth were just poking their heads into the Lovecraftian.  They paid the price, one way or another.

Yes I get that it's the Yorn (remember I said; "Yes I know the Yorn breed quickly, but 20 seconds, come on!"). The thing is that they would not only have to be able to learn quickly, but they would have to grow at a rapid rate. Such is not possible for any animal known in SC or in real life. I would get if their crew would regenerate after a battle, (like the Mycon in the full game version of SCI) but 20 seconds just seems way too little time for someone like the Yorn. I don't know if it's SCIII's lack of explainning it or it really is stupid, but I just don't like the way it was done. And having them thrown into a furnace, or whatever they use, to get a speed burst doesn't seem like them either. The Druuge or insane and that's why they do it, but even the Harika are not mean enough to do that (SCIII said they respected the Yorn, but they eat them because they had to do so to live and the Yorn understood that without the Harika they would kill themselfs via overpopulation).

As for the Doog, it's not that simple, but oh well. I was just trying to make a point, that TFB would never do something like that.



You know the more I think about the Arilou, the stranger things get. The Arilou said they knew the first Human, but they also said they made changes to us to protect us. Then they say that there are those out there who wish to harm us, yet they say that they will harm us if they didn't change our *smell* and if we "let ourselves be known" to them. To go on with this they say that the Androsynth let themselves be known and now there are only Orz. So, that, alone, lead me to believe that the Orz are those creatures the Arilou say they are trying to protect us from. Ah well. I've been thinking that it may have just been that the Androsynth showed themselves to the Orz, but I can't get over the fact that the Orz said we were different. So, I have to keep going back to my different DNA theory. I don't know much about making a clone, but I'm pretty sure they use a mix of blood samples and their eyes (microscopes) to make one. Now, if the Arilou did something that was so advanced maybe we couldn't copy it with just a blood sample. Again, this is advanced technology, so who knows what they could've done. Or maybe when we messed with their DNA, to make it so that they couldn't reproduce that part was taken out (again who knowns what the Arilou did with their advanced technology). *Sigh*It seems that every theory I come up with leads to another.  :-/ But then again, that's part of what made SCII great.  :D

So many theories! Thank you everyone for posting! I started this thread with hope that more than three or so people would give input, but now there are so many replies... it's just so interesting to see everyone's take on this topic!

I hope this doesn't shift the overall topic, but I think this ties in to it:

Is it just me, or do the Orz seem rather juvenile and advanced in their conversations at the same time? I mean, they get VERY angry if you simply mention the Androsynth... their lingual "best fits" sometimes seem rather purposefully humorous ("*Jumping Peppers*!! It is *smiley* time!!")... hell, they even try to make jokes with you sometimes!

I sometimes get the impression (regarding the latter example) that the Orz are trying to "fit in" as a "typical" alien race that inhabits what they call *heavy space*. Obviously, they are not "typical" in most senses, as reflected by their complex language and how they only speak in present tense. But the Orz go out of their way to make an alliance with you, supply you with plenty of ship plans, and attempt to make casual jokes ("Yes, we do! Hello! I am only joke. It is funny enough! Don't forget to *enjoy the sauce*!!") with you to lighten the situation of their strangeness.

This is just my take on it... if you have any concurrences or differences, please post away!

And I must ask two more questions, one of which I asked earlier with no answer, but it is okay if you're too focused on the primary issue to answer them. Here they are:

1) If the Orz are projections of a different-dimensioned being/entity/species, why did they/it choose the physical form of fish-like creatures that breathe from a liquid ethanol solution?

2) On a lighter and perhaprs sillier note, what do you think the meaning of *enjoy the sauce* is?

Thank you so much everyone for contributing!

I always used to think it was a side-effect of the hive-mind theory (like they weren't quite right). The Mycon are good example of this. But, anyway, I like your idea better...They could be like the Supox (in a small way) where they are trying to act as normal as possible so that they don't draw attention to themselves.



You always have the most interesting questions.  :D Anyway, as to question 1 I have two possible theories. The first is that they breathe that in their home dimension and they had no choice but for their *fingers* to breate it in this one. And the second is that they have some sort of master plan and being able to breathe that will protect them from what they are going to do (this one is a little out there). After all, if they could decide what they would breate, in this dimension, why wouldn't it be something that was common? At least that way they could fit in/colonize more worlds without having to change the enviroment.

As for question 2. I have no idea, so I won't even try answering. Hopefully, someone will be able to though (I'd really like to know).

First, I just want to say that I'm a little upset that I missed out on this topic for so long.

Next, to ZeroArmy, you are without a doubt the most prolific writer on this forum.  That's not a criticism, just an observation, because I see you every where and you are all over this forum.

What is killing me is that earlier you made a few points that I was going to argue against, like the Chmmr being the "rocks awakened" and the "Utwig bomb" destroyed the Sa-Matra, not the Ultron, but others beat me to it.

Anyway, I totally agree with you about keeping SCIII out of this topic field.  There are other topics that are specifically intended for discussions of that game.

Anyway you said:



I was thinking that perhaps they can breathe through their *fingers* just as a crustacean (lobster), have neither lungs nor gills, breath through its carapaces (exo-skeleton).  Just a theory as is every thing here.

Now, in answer to the Orz langauge, Soviet_Inclination, I must tell you, I nearly jumped out of my chair when I read your first post asking for translations, because 8 years ago, I made an attempt at just that.  And, is if by coincidence, last week, while going through a box of old computer games, I stumbled upon a notebook that contained my attempt at translations.

(I still have not been about to find my old notes on the various mineral and bio contents of worlds and my Quasi-Space connections though I've already rewritten that ... I kept extensive logs the first two times I played this game and I had even made a map of the quadrant on about four pieces of graph paper that I had taped together, because I am crazy obsessive when I get into something and SC2 completely hooked me.  I just liked to have my own map ... it made me feel like more of an explorer ... one thing I did discover from doing this ... the stars apparent locations in the game don't EXACTLY match their coordinates, but that's nit-picking)

Anyway, although some of these have already been mentioned by others before this, and many match my exact thoughts, here is my attempt at translating (with question marks to denote that even I was stretching for an answer):

*good news* = information
*pieces* - years? A measure of time?
*smell* - to know of, to see, to look
*level* - dimension, universe
*happy town* - interesting universe?
*slippery places* - dimensional portals
*fingers* - extension of itself, the ORZ themselves
*new town* - new unknown universe
*campers* - races, species, sentients, our human species?
*silly cows* - unbelievable (stupid) idiots? annoying beings
*dance* - fight (w/ships)
*jumping in front* - getting in the way
*juice squeezing* - to make peace using up energy
*frumple* - mad, deeply upset
*happy campers* - interesting species willing volunteers for absorption
*playground* - planet, star
*slow time* - dimensional differences, Time moves slower here?
*heavy space* - dimensional differences, "Space" is difficult to travel through here, requires more fuel
*spit* - to tell, to say
*GO! GO!* - space marines
*other* - the enemy of the Orz (whoever that may be)
*happy time* - time to celebrate
*game* - the action being done presently
*enjoy the sauce* - have a good day Orz way of saying bye
*expanding* - learning, growing
*squishy* - good, goodness
*anticipation* - anxiously waiting?
*the middle* - a meeting, to meet in between above and below, this dimension
*pleasant combinations* - great news?
*successful* - accomplishing
*party* - final meeting, joining?, absorption?
*play* - exist
*friends* - acquainted
*open* - advance your (technology) mind
*spread the wax* - share yourself
*become* - transform, advance
*happy* - knowledgable
*tired* - bored with
*silly* - stupid

That's all I had written.  Now, if I recall, in the PC version you pushed the space bar after everything the Orz said and you could see it all written out again.  That's exactly what I did and I sat there and thought, "what words or ideas could I substitute for these that could make some possible sense of this conversation and stay consistant through out".  I remember rereading through the Orz conversation and it making a lot more sense, at least to my general satisfaction.  There are some things they say that you are just never supposed to understand.  I think you just have to accept that.

It's just so funny to me that you brought this up because frankly, I was tired of not understanding to my satisfaction what it was the Orz were talking about.  That's when I just decided to write the dictionary ... I had already finished the game once prior ... I just wanted to see if I could make sense of the Orz.

Among my favorite expressions were:
*frumple* ... this always made me laugh.  My friend and I started using that word after playing this game to describe things we did not like, and we often ended e-mails with *enjoy the sauce* my next favorite one.  Even to this day, we'll refer to each other as p(k)unk (intended as the word "punk"), with a smile.  Yeah, we're total geeks that loved this game.

I have not included any thing from SCIII because frankly, like ZeroArmy said, let's keep this topic within the realm of TFB.  Also, I wrote this translation before SCIII was ever released and I've never used it to try to see if it works in SCIII.  It probably does, because if any one has bothered to notice, a LOT of the dialog in SCIII from the various home quadrant races, matches phrases from SC2 ... sometimes it seems like word for word, especially the species histories. But that's for another topic.

In terms of who the Orz are, I always saw them as a projection of a single creature.  They were merely a small part of that creature's body, its *fingers*.
Also, I noticed my translation does not include *many bubbles*, but I figured that a bubble meant a single life form.  The captain was one *bubble* and your ship is full of *many bubbles*, but Orz are not, "we are just Orz".  It's like someone saying, "no, I'm not multiple people, I'm just Larry".

I agree with peoples explanation of "above" and "below" in that it is both a designation that our plane of reality sits in between theirs AND also that "above" meant a nicer, safer (heavenly) place and "below" meant a harsh, scary (hellish) place.  Strange that I never connected *middle* to mean this plane, this dimension, but at the time, the word "meeting" seemed to fit.  I also always felt that since the Orz are mere projections into our dimension, they aren't really "completely there" ... they are like a light being projected into a dark room, except that they have substance.  Maybe I've watched too much Babylon 5.  ;-D

I never thought of the Orz not being able to comprehend time at all ... maybe they don't comprehend the way time works in our dimension, but this idea that they just exist as a 4D entity meeting a 3D dimension creating bubbles (pockets of existence, substance) that to us look like single life forms is a fascinating new thought to me.  If this is the case, then perhaps they can "see" the Taalo in the past ... since time is different here, and the Taalo are not ALWAYS existing throughout time in this physical place, perhaps it seems to Orz as if they are playing some kind of trick.  Now, I seem to recall some mention that the Taalo escaped genocide from the Kohr-Ah, but I fail to remember WHERE in the game it is said, who says it and when?
  But then again, if the Orz says *pretty space* then he can't mean TrueSpace, because the Orz refers to that as *heavy space*.  This would mean to me that, yes, the Taalo some how did escape to another "place" ... whether that is Quasi-Space or something completely different, I don't think any amount of speculation can be made to prove what *pretty space* is to them.  Only Fred and Paul likely know.  Personally, I always thought the inside of the Arilou ship looked pretty, with it's multi-colors and the streaking lights, but THAT is such a stretch to then say that Quasi-Space is *pretty space* unless some other character in the game confirms that.

  While I'm on the topic of races from the Sentient Milieu.  We are told that the Yuli and Drall (and Taalo) were destroyed by the mind controlled Ur-Quan and that the Foz were slave shielded by the Kzer-Za, which means they could still exist, somewhere.  The Kohr-Ah cleansed the Yuptar, but the Mael-Num escaped after they used THE WORDS and the Kzer-Za showed up in time and provided a distraction for them.
  Now, my point is ... is there any one out there that DOES NOT believe that the Melnorme ARE the old Mael-num race that escaped?!  Am I wrong, but were the Mael-num described to have one large eye? ... not that that's unique given the Spathi and VUX.
  Ah, I should take my own advice and discuss this somewhere else (that is if it doesn't already exist as a topic).

In terms of the Androsynth looking up ghosts, I think it was because like your science officer, they were being attacked by things they could not see and they probably started going crazy.  The world may have been nuked in a mad attempt to stop whatever it was they had unleashed.  Now, I would argue that it was not necessarily the Orz who attacked and/or killed the Androsynth.  Who knows WHAT exists down *below*.  I think the Orz just took advantage of this new discovery to go exploring a place they had never *smelled* before.  Why they get upset when you ask about them ... that never made sense to me.

<rant>
All these explanations I have read seemed too contrived OR based too much on SCIII, which like I have said earlier, I am completely ignoring in this topic.
  Don't get me wrong, your ideas are interesting, but a lot have serious flaws in them.  You should admit when you are making a lot of speculation (like ZeroArmy admitting "this one is a little out there").
  All this arguing back and forth about what the Orz real intent seems to me like arguing over what God likes in his tea, that is if he even drinks tea, or even drinks, or even exists at all.  You can not prove it to me one way or the other through any thing other that pure speculation.  And that's no proof at all.
  I think I completely understand why ZeroArmy was getting so frustrated during the course of this topic, because reading through a lot of this, I felt the same way.  Not only because this topic should be free of SCIII discussion (I took it that this post was asked in terms of SC2 exclusively), but also because all this arguing over pure speculation is such nonsense.
  Doctuh_Jay, though your points are interesting, they have no place in this topic.  I think it would be best if you formed your own topic that specifically mentions that you'd like to discuss the overall plot of SC2 and SCIII combined, especially concerning the Orz and the Eternal1s.  Discussion of the Eternal1s is TOTALLY off topic here.
 The meanings of the Orz and Arilou in this discussion is concerning SC2, as if SCIII never existed ... so you must take all those ideas from SCIII and temporarily put them on hold.  You were backing up your arguments with plot from a story ZeroArmy and mage were ignoring for this topic.  And yet even after it was explained, you continued to bring it up.  Start a new topic and leave a message here that you invite people to discuss it there, if they are interested.
  I enjoyed SCIII, probably more than most, in spite of its failings in linear plot development due to poor coding, but I explained this in a seperate topic labeled "Star Control 3".  I understand that it was not made by the original creators and in this they were not completely happy with the end product.
</rant>

I knew someone would bring this up sooner or later. Not too long ago I realized I had over 50 posts and so I looked around and I saw that I had more then anyone else. After which, I decided to try and cut back, but there are some topics which I can't help but reply to. *Sigh* I've never ever had the most posts in a forum before, but I guess that SC is a more important topic, to me, then I thought it was.  :-/



Well I said the Taalo were the rocks awakened, but it was really the Chmmr (it says shinny rocks are awaked my an explosion of light) and yeah I made a mistake with a Ultron (again sorry if I confused anyone). When I used to make replies in forums, which was a long time ago, I never replied so much so I guess I'm not used to it. Anyway, I know how you feel. I'm normally only on at night, since I work during the day, and so I find a lot of topics replied to with the things I wanted to say.



Thank you for that (people were getting on my nerves).




Yeah I think everyone thinks that the Mael-Num and the Melnorme are one in the same. Fred and Paul spent the entire game hinting that they were and, personally, I doubt they'd do all that as a sick joke to trick you. But then who knows.  ;)



I completely agree. A few theories are one thing, but when you find someone saying you're wrong because their theory is better, you find yourself being forced to play the game, gather proof, and report back. It's become very time consuming. :P



Well it wasn't really that they were talking about SCIII in general (although I do have issues with it so I tend to get annoyed when people act as if it's the holy grail). It was simply that it should be clear to anyone that the guy, who started this thread, wanted to talk about what TFB had in mind, yet the same couple of people kept explaining what SCIII said. Then they were told that we didn't want to know what SCIII said (like you explained above) and they kept it up. One of them even went so far as to say the Taalo weren't alive because of what was said in SCIII. Yet, just a few posts before, someone cut and pasted part of a chat log where Paul and Fred said they were really alive. After a few posts like that you feel like you want to rip your head off.  >:(



Since you brought up SCIII I want to clear something up for everyone who reads through this thread....I don't completely hate SCIII. The idea of the Eternal One's was nice, but they didn't back it up well enough and the ships were fun to play with, but they had no place in SCIII (the Crux probably could've beaten either of the Ur-Quan). In short, I think it's a fair game, but it doesn't deserve the name Star Control and I simply get a little annoyed when people treat the details from it as if they really happened. But, anyway, like you said, if people want to talk about it they should start a thread of their own.

My *guess* is:
 *dance* = fight
think bigger (=more *dancers*) and you'll get:
 *party* = official declaration of war

 *above* = where the Arilou LaLee´lay come from
 *under* = where the Orz comes from
so
 *middle*  must be in between. Might be Truespace, because the Orz might tell you the directions as he sees them.

 *heavy space* seems to be those parts of Truespace, where there is gravity (e.g. aroung planets, moons, sun, ...)

To ZeroArmy:
I guess at this point you have the right to yell, "nnnGGGHHHHHNNNNN!!!!" because those *silly cows* made you quite *frumple*.  They are not *happy campers*.

Yeah, sorry, I just had to do it.

Enjoy the sauce

-PsiPhi

I stand chastised, Psi Phi.

I'm trying to not use anything from SC3....


Just had a new thought on *slow time*... if you buy the theory that the Orz only think in present tense, then *slow time* probably refers to the fact that in *heavy space* time flows, rather than being all at once.

Of course, this is all theoretical, all of it!

I call to the creators!  Only they, with their infallible knowledge of the game, can answer our questions!  HELP!

(okay, so I'm sucking up to them... they deserve it for doing this port!)

As seems a bit obvious from my previous post is, that I believer that the Orz is a single entity, that enjoys the way of war and fight in this dimension.

Therfore I take most of these *translations* and refer them to something around fights.

*Enjoy the sauce* could mean: Enjoy the winning! Enjoy the fight and above all, enjoy that you've beaten the opponent.

Therfore i translate *juice squeezing* differently than PsiPhi with "fight to the death"
*playground*: any good place for a fight (with gravity), maybe refers to the fact, that the Taalo seem to the Orz more "alive" here than elsewhere (a good place to *play* for the Orz).
*silly cows* i translated as "annoying beings"

Nevertheless, this topic became my favorite one, because here you can see, what made SC2 so great: everybody found something special to do in the game. Some went to translate *Orzish*, some went to strip every bit of minerals and life from any planet, some just replayed and replayed to perfect their time-score. And there was so much to do, to discover, to change the universe, without affecting the continueing of the game itself. Take the Yehat rebellion. It was not necessary at all, but just fun. And i did not care, that the rebellion did not win, and that it was not necessary at all, to win the game. You just didn't need anything from the Yehat. Just for the fun of it, I started a civil war in a culture, that has been stable longer than we humans have historical records about ourself!

I like that theory. :)




I translated this to "homeworld".



I found it very useful. If you get pkunk and yehat rejoin, they bring you full fleet of ships before sa-matra. And fury is the best ship you can have there.


Didn't win? Does the rebellion ever end if pkunk don't arrive there?

"Many bubbles" obviously refers to _cells_.

My theory, in more detail:

The Orz is not evil, but are so not-like-us that he is dangerous.  Yes, the *nggn* is the Orz.  The Arilou have been frustrating their attempts to enter this dimension -- *jumping in front* -- for a while, but the Androsynth opened up a new pathway.

The Androsynth were destroyed when the Orz pulled them through to their dimension, where beings like us can't really exist.  The Orz wasn't -trying- to kill them, but, y'know, you can't squeeze tomatoes without making *sauce*.

The Orz is singular, and is not a *light reflection* like us -- he is not made up of *many bubbles* (cells).  He's completely different.

The authors at one point said that they were going to do something like have something Really Bad happen if the player entered QuasiSpace with an Orz ship in tow, but they never got around to it.  Too bad!

-Pete

The only problem with that theory is that the Orz couldn't *smell* Truespace until the Androsynth started experimenting!  I think the Arilou have been frustrating Orz efforts on many planes, and they were totally sucessful with Truespace, to the point where the Orz didn't even know it existed!  (Until the Androsynth started looking, that is.)

Otherwise, I think you're right on.  The more I think about it the more I think that the Orz is one being, or at least there are far less Orz than there are *fingers*.

The Orz tried, for whatever reason, to have the Androsynth "enjoy *the change*," but it didn't work, and that's why the Orz is/are upset about it.

And, while the creators have said that the Taalo exist, I still think that the Orz refer to them is present tense only becuase they have no notion of past tense.

Wait a minute; when you form an alliance with the Orz, don't they call it an *alliance party*?  Declaration of war wouldn't work to well there, unless they're totally fooling you with their intentions.

A question for all you translators:

If the translations to these words make conventional and obvious sense when inserted into the English sentences, then why wouldn't the ship translator have picked them up? Given that we know the translator is effective (there were several races that humans met for the first time in SCII, right? And the translator was find with them), it seems unlikely that it wouldn't be able to do the same job.

My theory on that is as follows:

In many cases, the Orz refer to a simple concept, like Truespace, for example, but they refer to it in a way that we can't understand!

For example, they talk about *heavy space*, which many people think refers to Truesapce.  I think it is talking about some aspect of Truespace we don't get, the *heavy* part.

Its like trying to tell a blind man you're talking about an apple by saying"the red thing".

wake - The translator was inable to produce a word that would correspond with what the Orz were (was) saying.  It DID do a translation as well as it could, thus it gave some loosely related words.  *Below* means exactly that, but in a fourth dimension.  Same ideas with *above* and *middle.*

Now, a few more thoughts I've come up with (notice that I switch between plural and singular.  Bleh!):

*Playground:* this is the planet of the former Taalo.  The word playground implies that it is fun for the Orz.  The translator tripped up because there is no word for WHAT they do exactly there.  The Orz say it's no fun in slow time, which further reinforces my point.  Now, look at the three facts then:

The Orz find the place fun.
The Orz don't find it fun in slow time.
The planet used to be inhabited by the Taalo.

Now, what does this mean?  Well, assume the Orz have no concept of time.  They do not have "time" in their dimension.  They exist in the past, present, and future, all at once.  They refer to the present tense all the time because that's all there is: the everlasting now.  But, as they are new to the *middle,* they still haven't thought up words to express the concept of time.  *Slow time* is the closest they have, which probably implies that they are experiencing things at a linear rate, instead of whatever they want, as they do in their home dimension.  Now, back to the *playground.*
Since the Orz experience everything at once in their own dimension, and the *playground* is more fun in non-slow time, aka, any time BESIDES the present, it will imply one of three things:

The *playground* is interesting because of how it changes.
The *playground* was interesting in the past.
Or the *playground* will be interesting in the future.

Now, let's just go on possible implication #2.  #1 seems implausible, because if they have no concept of time, change would be lost on them.  #3 is still a go though, but we're going with #2 because there are more implications.  If we wish to cross over into the "real world" for a moment, we could point out that a sequel would take place in another region of space, as this area has already been pretty much secured by the end of the game.  Of course, only TFB could answer this, but I think I'll get back to the important things.

Now, going on implication #2.  This would mean that the Orz finds something that is fun/interesting in the past.  What was in the past?  The Taalo, of course!  This gives a huge (though somewhat obscure) hint at an Orz-Taalo connection.  Now, seeing as the Taalo still live (crossing over into the real world again =P), we can draw the conclusion that the Orz took the Taalo away.  Isn't too far of a stretch, is it?  Of course, this could be wrong, and instead it is implication #3 that is true, and that this was simply a hint at the content of a sequel.

Well, that's all I can think of.  I might've forgotton something while writing this, though.  Oh well.
Well, I'm ALMOST close to being done here.  There is something else.  On the idea of *Nngn,* if the Orz are the *Nngn,* and yet Orz is really a single being (there I go with switching between plural and singular), then how come the Arilou refer to them in the plural form?  Another theory is that although the Orz is a single being, it's projected fingers are the *Nngn,* and the Orz that we see, although they share a collective conciousness.

is the Taalo planet the only place the Orz refer to as *playground*?  I seem to remember them talkig about some other playground, but I could just be hallucinating.

Now, as for the *Nggnn* I don't think that the Orz are *Nggnn* because the Arilou know the true nature of the Orz.  The Arilou also wouldn't just let the Orz go if they captured one of their seemingly mortal enemies!  Also, while we "aren't quite solid enough" to catch *Nggnn*, the Orz *fingers* are just as solid (or un-solid) as we are, and interactions with Space Marines show that we CAN kill a *finger*.  So I don't think the Orz are *Nggnn*.

Thought: Maybe *Nggnn* is the name of some other race that the Orz use as a curse word!  Kind of like we use female dog as a curse word... That would explain the similarity!

Ah another day went by and so did the discussion (PsiPhi knows what I mean ;) ). Anyway, I have a few extra points to add...

1. For those of you who think the Orz and *Nggn* are one in the same can you explain to me why the Arilou would say that they were trying to catch the *Nggn* and then tell us not to trust the Orz? Is it just me or does it seem a little silly for them to call the Orz two different things?

2. Does anyone know what exactly an *easy place* is? I went to the Arilou, to check to see what they said about the *Nggn,* again, and after asking why they are in this area of space, they said that this is an *easy place.* Then if you ask why they are in this *easy place* they say it's to catch *Nggn.* So, I figured instead of arguing about the *Nggn* and Orz thing we could try and figure out what it is because if it's just referring to the Arilou's sphere of influence then they can't be the Orz.

3. And for three we move on to the Taalo. The conversation was shut down by what Paul and Fred said so I thought it best to explain why I think they're alive (it seemed people were still finding it hard believe it).

Ok well let's pretend Fred and Paul didn't say the Taalo were alive. Now, before this statement, it was believed, by most, that the Taalo weren't alive even though the Orz brought them up in conversation. This was of course because the Orz talk in present tense. But, the thing is that even if the Orz can't understand time, and all this *sliding* and playing *time tricks* on them may have happened 22 thousand years ago, doesn't it stand to reason that they're still alive now? After all, everyone was saying that they agreed with what the Orz said, but they didn't think they could understand time. So, anyway, by what the Orz said, the Taalo escaped the Ur-Quan attack and *slide* into another dimension. Then, (the following is my view on what happened) being that the Taalo were more advanced then the Chenjesu and were able to annoy the Orz by playing *tricks* on them (they must've been much stronger then the Orz) they should've easily been able to survive 20 thousand more years.

Arilou talking about *Nggn* are flying around in hyperspace. They don't reveal you much, because it's arilou policy to protect humans from too much information. After you reach their homeworld, they decide to tell you more.



Orz weren't in *heavy space* 22k years ago, so they must have slid to taalo's new dimension, and met them there.

I would first like to say to Krulle that I completely agree with your translation of *juice squeezing* over my 8 year old one.  Reading through the Orz text, I can't think how it is that I thought it meant "to make peace", unless I meant something like "to pacify" ... could it not mean "to pacify by force"?
 Also, my translation of *silly cows* although catching the idea that it was not something positive, was too harsh.  Your "annoying beings" seems to fit a lot better.
 And your *enjoy the sauce* makes sense, but again, I still see it as their form of "have a nice day", "safe journey", "godspeed", "good luck", "Live long and prosper".  Your interpretation is too specific.  They only say that phrase once.  They use *sauce* three times.  The other two are as *special sauce*.  Although it is in an area about fighting and *dissolving* (getting destroyed, dying), it could just have something to do with you becoming or being absorbed by the Orz, which is something good to them.

Looking through this text, it is obvious that *juice* is connected to the Orz being upset.  So, my translation above is not right.

EDIT: I just thought of something.  What if *squeezing the juice* meant something like, using up energy?  I know this will sound very SCIII, but what if the Orz absorb *campers* when they *become* at a *party* and this gives the Orz *juice* (energy).  When you force them to *squeeze the juice*, you are making them use up precious energy.  Since the Androsynth *silly cows* resisted, they frustrated the Orz because it made it that much harder to absorb them, the effort wasn't worth it.  Cows are a source of energy both through milk and meat and they aren't known for intelligence.

I think part of the reason the Orz like *heavy space*, which yes, could mean places with gravity, is because it is very good for their Space Marines.  For some reason, a planet allows them to speed up as if they can harness gravity into some way we don't understand.  Perhaps *pretty space* lacks gravity.  If pretty space IS quasi-space (or one is a subset of the other), then that may make sense since Quasi-Space didn't have any planets or stars in it.  And don't tell me, "But the Arilou's world was there", because the Arilou themselves say,

This is our homeworld, Falayalaralfali, nestled safe in this TrueSpace eddy.
Therefore, the Space Marines would not have this advantage in Quasi-Space, so *heavy space* is good for them.

But I disagree with *party* meaning a large scale war.  Arrow is right.  Although the exact reasons can never be known, word concepts like *home*, *other home*, *camper*, *party* *alliance* (as well as some others) all seem to tie into, what I perceive as, a ominous (to human's normal existence) and unifying idea that the Orz want to show us other dimensions, or alter us in some way.  I'm not saying genetically, but perhaps physically and mentally.  When I think of them saying *alliance*, they do not mean as in, mutual support of arms for defense.  I think they are referring to bringing us to another dimension, somewhere we do not belong, but are apparently (to the Orz) willing to go thereby being *happy campers* because we would no longer be at our *home* ... *home* being our dimension, or planet, or maybe even our sense of reality.  *Camper* meaning, away from *home*.
 Although a *home* could be the region of TrueSpace they occupying or the planet itself, that is to them currently, the Taalo *Playground*.

 I think the main things to keep in mind are these:
- We all know that the Orz sense of reality is completely different from ours.
- all words that appear in ** can mean more than just one thing.  For any one familiar with Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land, I like to think of these "words" as if they are like the word "grok".  They mean many things at many times often depending on the situation.  It will be difficult for you to understand because you lack the experiece/knowledge/sense due to your physical limitations and/or alternate upbringing.
- The Orz have a completely different agenda from ours.  We are looking for allies in a war.  The Orz really have no care or concept of why this is important to us.  Rather, it seems to me that it is more important that they somehow *pull* or bring *happy*(willing) *campers* (explorers, volunteers) to go through some kind of change.

  Reading others thoughts on this, I am now starting to see what they mean by the Orz being confused and upset about the whole matter of the Androsynth.  The Androsynth opened a *slippery* place (a portal) and it appears the Orz took this to mean that the Androsynth were ready and willing to go through this *party*, this process, this change.  But they weren't.  They were just doing research, something the Orz may not understand.  Something in the Party went horribly wrong.  Perhaps to the Orz, the Androsynth were supposed to be *happy campers* or else, why would they do this thing of opening a *slippery place*?  Instead they turned out to be *silly cows*.  They frustrated the Orz efforts to ?help? the Androsynth enter this new existence of being.  This must have greatly confused the Orz.

 I think that when they speak of the biggest *party* this is the Orz idea for this process of transformation (*become*), not just to their dimension, but into a new state of being.  What this new state is ... who knows.  I always thought that it could mean absorption ... not physically eaten, but an absorption of being, perhaps even becoming part of the Orz, willingly.
  The Orz at one time also refer to *cousins*, *sisters* and *relatives*.  It seems to us (the Captain) like they want to just form a militray alliance, but what they really mean is we are agreeing to go through the process (party) of becoming something new, something perhaps like the Orz or maybe even part of the Orz.  We are volunteering our *sauce* to be absorbed.

Aside from this, I don't read into the "Nggn" thing any further than that it is some "game" the Arilou like to do to keep themselves occupied that we cannot understand.  (Not solid enough)  I really don't see a connection either.  Although, I'll admit, the Orz, "Nnnnggggaaahhh" looks similar, to me, it's nothing more than a GRUNT of impatience and/or anger AND a coincidence.  I agree with ZeroArmy.  I see no evidence.

As for the *jumping in front*, the Orz say that they never *smelled* our *level* until the Androsynth made the *slippery* place, so for that to SPECIFICALLY mean that they were upset that the Arilou were keeping them out of this dimension seems flawed.  However, I do agree that the Arilou and Orz have met in on the *outside* before and that this simply means that the Arilou have been getting in the way of the Orz doing whatever it is that they do, and this is very annoying.  Though the Orz are from this other dimension, I don't believe they have IDF (portal spawning) ability like the Arilou.  This is why they refer to the Arilou as *quick babies* because they can get from one place to another quickly.  They were able to keep the portal the Androsynth made open though.  Perhaps once the Androsynth opened it, they didn't know how to close it, or they made an opening in a way that it could no longer be closed OR, since there is a lot of mention of the Taalo and this was their home space, this area of space just happens to be easily connected to the *outside*.

The Taalo did escape annihilation by the Dynarri ... although whether they are still the same beings once they crossed the threshold, that is not known.

 The reason I say this is because the Orz themselves say this:
Yes. Yes. You say words, then I say.  It is fun *in between*.  More fun than *dancing*.  Many *gravity centers* in *heavy space* make good *party places*.  This is why we like the *New Town*.  So many *Campers* and then what?  Even the *Playgrounds*!  Such a surprise!  At this *Playground*, Taalo are making *Time jokes*.  It is too funny for the Orz.  Taalo are in *heavy space* and next what?  They spread to *Pretty Space* because Dnyarri are chasing them.  Now Dnyarri are sleeping, so Orz can *chase* them.  Then we can have a *party*.  They are even better *campers* than you.  Do not feeling bad.  You are good enough *campers*, but not yet.
This could mean that the Taalo made it into *pretty space*, where the Orz exist, but without going through this *party* process, that the Orz seem so eager for you to experience.

So, I agree with ZeroArmy (yet again - scary isn't it) that the Taalo survived by making it into another dimension and that some how they have managed to evade the Orz with their *time jokes*, although the Orz still want them.

Never forget, the Orz are strange.

Orz cannot be *strange*. Orz is Orz. Strange is other thing.
You are the *silliest cow* even more so.
At least you can *dance* with Orz.
After the *dancing* Orz think you will make good *special sauce*.
Maybe even for other Orz *party*, so do not be sad.

-PsiPhi

Well that could be so, but it seems to be that the hyperspace Arilou aren't trying to hold anymore information then those at their homeworld (according to the base commander they didn't give us any information before because we were too busy fighting to ask). And even if they were trying to why wouldn't they simply tell us about the Orz so we could avoid them? I mean it's one thing to not tell us about creatures from another dimension, that way we won't even try to find them, but it's another thing when someone, who the Arilou think might harm us, enter our space.

EDIT: Ok I opened up a old saved game (one before I ever talked to the Arilou) and flew up to their space. After asking "I am confused about our relationship. Please elaborate" several times, (this is to the hyperspace Arilou) they said this...

"You know, we never revealed where in the galaxy one could find our homeworld. There was a good reason. We are not from your space, or your... *time*. Some of your more broad thinkers refer to such realms as other dimensions. Though trivialized, this is a suitable metaphor for your intellect.
Perhaps you know of the Orz. Like us, they are dimensional travellers but that is where our similarity ends. Do not trust the Orz, my Human Captain. They are dangerous. But as to your question... our relationship. To call our interaction with your kind an experiment would be much too simple and impersonal. Let us just say that we have a vested interest in your... development. You are one of our... extended family, just as other sentients in other dimensions have their extended families. We are proud of you as you would be of your children, and some day well, I have said too much already."

Notice the part that I bolded. The Arilou have no problem calling the Orz by their name there, (which means your idea as to why is voided) so why would they call them the *Nnngn* later?

Orz weren't in *heavy space* 22k years ago, so they must have slid to taalo's new dimension, and met them there.
[/quote]

Did you read what I said? I was saying that the Taalo entered the Orz's dimension themselves (in a post before I explained why I thought the Taalo could enter quasi-space when they met the Milieu). There was no way the Orz could've dragged the Taalo into their dimension 22 thousand years ago. For one they'd have to be friends with the Taalo to save them from the Ur-Quan (the Orz only make alliances when it suits them) and they'd have to KNOW about this space (remember they didn't even know it exsisted until the Androsynth's experements).

Yes, Yes I do.



I always took "easy place" to mean a natural occurence of interdimensional fatigue, that being the Quasi-space portal that appears for 3 days starting on the 17th of each month.

Frankly, I think the Nggn are like that little pixie the Pkunk says sits on your shoulder and makes funny faces at him ... it's just something quirky added to the game to enhance the fact that these are aliens to which you are speaking.
 Nggn are not Orz.  The Arilou's attitude towards Nggn is quite jovial and relaxed.  Hell, he releases them after he catches them, like it is some kind of game.  Maybe its the Arilou version of Frungy.  I don't know.  I'm not going to kill myself trying to read into something that was mentioned once as an obvious joke.  By contrast, the Arilou attitude towards Orz is quite cautious and unfriendly.
 If you make that connection, then you may as well start making outlandish connections like the Ultron is just a hyperwave receiver/converter and someone like the Umgah are behind some other farcical prank to mislead the Utwig culture.  Or that the Spathi Evil Ones are really just the last of the ZoqFotPik's Zebranky, that were transported by the Umgah to Spathiwa for a few laughs.  Actually, I'd believe THAT before I'd ever believe that the Orz are the Nggn, simply because they grunt "Nnnngggaaahhhh" whenever they are mad.
 But if you choose to believe that, well, I've got a real good deal for you on this powerful artifact called the Trident of Wimbli.

-PsiPhi

See that's what I was thinking, but the Arilou said that there is only one natural occuring portal to Quasi-space, while they said that there were 10 total "easy places."



lol. Call me crazy, but I like the idea of the *Nnngn* being pixies.  ;D



It's funny you say that because, while editing my post above yours, I was thinking that it maybe the Arilou's version of Frungy. And probably wasn't thought out in detail, like Frungy probably wasn't.



Aww, how cute, you're turning into a ranting maniac, just like me. ;)

Yeah, you are right and there are 15 entrances from Quasi to Hyper.  Even though it does say only natural portal, I wonder if they ommited "in this quadrant".  Pure speculation.  Other than that, no idea what an easy place is then.


Yeah, did you ever notice that there are a lot of races that are either psychic (Pkunk, Syreen, Utwig, Arilou) and a lot of them seem to joke about being able to see things you cannot, like the Melnorme trader always bringing up the Keel-Verezy?  I think this all just fits into the category of idle chit-chat tidbits thrown into the story that have absolutely NOTHING to do with the plot of the game.  But that's the brilliance of this game, because in that way it mimics real-life in a sense.  A lot of the time, you need to cut through a lot of the crap to find the gem of info that pertains to you.  My friend and I drove each other nuts looking for the Keel-Verezy.  We thought that's where we'd get the Cloaking Devce we had heard about.  Turns out, red herring.  It drove us nuts, but we loved it.


Truly strange.  And what does the Ultron tell you that I'm thinking now?    ;)


Oh, I was one WAY before this.  Read my other posts on various topics.  I mean how far of a stretch is it from being so insanely obsessive and actually taking the time to write an Orz dictionary, create my own map of the quadrant on graph paper (how do you think I found the last five or six rainbow worlds the first time so quick?  I picked up a ruler and said ... Oh, don't even TELL ME!), catalog the mineral content, bios, planetary dangers, and gravity of every planet of every star I visited in a notebook (which I seem to have misplaced) AND becoming a ranting maniac on the forums?

I tell ya, Juffo-Wup burns strong in me!

-PsiPhi

Hmm, need to take more time after the resurrection of the Yehat. Until now I've been ever successful to keep the Pkunk at the Krueger constellations until I've beaten the Sa-Matra. Therefor I never hat Furies or Yehat ships which I've build at the Starbase.

Need to check that out though. I'll be enjoying a new part! ::)

That's just what I want from a game: finished it at least 5 times from beginning to the end, but never had the Pkunk reach their Yehat brothers.... So stil new things to discover.  :D

*alliance party* = war alliance, therefor still refers to war. Even the Orz must *feel*, that they alone cannot pick it up against all others. And the humans are weak enough to be slayed later. At least at the moment you ask them.... ;)

 10 total *easy places* --> 10 rainbow worlds.



Ok, I don't believe it either, but I figured I'd mention it.

Thought of that also a few years ago. But that might mean that the Precursors made the rainbow worlds as "slippy places" for fast travel throughout the galaxy. Heck, maybe even the Precursors *manufactured* the Arilou, the Orz and so. Maybe the *Ngnn* ARE the Precursors! Just a hide and run game with the Arilou?
But who'd believe someone sitting in Aachen near a Hot-wine-garden? Lonely in a corner. Trying to find an ear for his stories. :'(
^{But I HAVE been abducted by the LaLe'lay!}

I think the Arilou are acting with a lot less altruism than they would like you to believe; mainly because the things they say are exactly what I would say to a talking resource to make it feel better and not try to run away before I expended it, e.g. an Arilou tells you "Rest assured, the well-being of humanity is at the forefront of every Arilou's mind." (Or something like that anyway, it has been a while).

Sounds comforting doesn't it? But if you replace "humanity" with "cattle" and "Arilou" with "farmer" well... the meaning is unchanged, the sentiment is unchanged, but the implacations are whole bunches different, and the Arilou hasn't actualy lied.

There are lots of other examples, but I would have to rebuild my legacy box to access my old savegames.

Also they are so very stingy with their information for an alleged ally with only our best interest in mind (of course they are you idiot, its a game... what the hell kind of game comes with an in-game walk-through? Aside from the Diablo^®s I mean.) *Aquisitor cuffs his imaginary 'friend'* Shut up you. Where was I... ah, yes, stingyness.

They say "we cannot help you with ships and beams, blood and bones, but knowledge trancends boundries and this we can give you for example, for the origins of the red probes, seek those on a planet with no surface" that is the riddle they give you instead of "Talk to the Slylandro on the Gas Giant at XX.x, YY.y" Honestly.

As to the behavior of the Orz, perhaps it goes something like this

1 Androsynth play with IDF tech
2 Orz and the poltergiest slashers notice the Androsynth
3 Slashers and Orz manifest; pehaps simultaneously, most likely not.
4 Androsynth concerned
5 Someone nukes the planet to prevent the spread of the slashers; maybe Orz, maybe Androsynth.
6 Orz remain to contain/eliminate/exorcise? the slashers and ensure no more sentients fall prey to them.

So when you talk to the Orz about the Androsynth, and make things *frumple* they kill you because they don't want the slashers turning up, not because it was the Orz that ate the Androsynth. Also notice the Arilou don't actualy say it was the Orz that did it. they say "The Orz are dangerous" (probably true, but so are all races) and they say "There are no more Androsynth, only Orz" and let you make the assumption that one was responsible for the other.

Consider: "The children were playing with matches and while they were doing so they could and did catch fire; now there no children, only firefighters." Now it would be silly to assume that the only people left after the disaster caused teh disaster in this scenario, so why does "The Androsynth were experementing with IDF. While they were doing so they could be and were seen. Now there are no Androsynth, only Orz" automaticly mean "the Orz ate the Androsynth"? (perhaps not literaly, but you know what I mean)

That being said, I still wouldnt trust the Orz either. Not until I knew a lot more about them anyway. For example: why does a creature that is only a *finger* need a medium to breathe? Do you even breathe the ethanol? or is it to stop you *disapating* or something? or is the ethanol more like a movie screen that the *fingers* are projected on? And what exactly is a *finger* anyway? Linguists! get that translation module functioning at least 98% ASAP!

The Orz and the Arilou seem to be subtly competing over us, but I get the feeling it is closer to a claim-stake rather than a custody battle.

I've never trusted the Arilou.  Rather than farmer/cattle though, I always thought it was more like Scientist/lab rat.

As for the "slashers", if the Orz were there preventing the slashers, 1) they wouldn't have let you land and 2) how did your scientist get hurt by them?

I still think that the Orz tried to make the Androsynth "enjoy *the change*" and it went wrong.  That's why they're upset about it, and why they say that "you will enjoy *the change*, but maybe not yet."  They realize now that we aren't ready.

But it's absurd to believe that even races in TrueSpace have words exactly corresponding to those in the English language. For instance, the Utwig strike me as the kind of race that would have about 200 different words for depression. But the translator still picks up on that. Context is very important for translation, and I think the translator know that.

A good example of words that it can't handle would by the Mycon's *chupwup* or whatever (it's been ages since I played with the text). Naturally, that's some sort of weird plant religious thing, but even we try and translate it to something like "the marvelousness of growing and eating sunlight and reproducing en masse via spores and stuff", we still don't approach an exact translation, because our language doesn't carry the appropriate concepts.

It seems reasonable to say that the case is the same with the Orz. It's fine to translate *below* as some other dimension, because that's only a vague approximation of a translation. But translating their words to things like "fighting", and "good", and "happy", and "stupid", well, I reiterate my hypothesis that if the translator could handle these in other races, they could handle them with the Orz. Of course, a vague approximation may be "fighting" or what not, but if it's only an approximation, then it becomes a LOT harder to figure out what the Orz are actually saying, because you can end up with situations like translating "engaging in battle to protect you" to "engaging in battle".

Two quick comments:

One: The Orz are one of my favorite races; they are certainly a large part of what makes SC what it is. Just think about it... everyone you meet who mentions them tells you that they are dangerous and can't be trusted. The Androsynth disappeared just as the Orz appeared - in the same region. They attack you for mentioning the Androsynth too much, and seem very suspicious. Basically, everything points to these guys being evil. Yet, their "translation problems" give them the funniest speech of all, and make them seem simply silly! I just love how that works.

Second: Just before they disappeard, the Precursors were apparently worried. "They were always hurrying from place to place, seeking knowledge as though they were in a desperate search for some important secret," the Slylandro tell us. The Androsynth, just before they disappeared. were desperately searching their computer systems for any information that could possibly save them... coincidence? Probably, but still something to think about. After all, it was apparently the Androsynth's experiments with multidimensional travel that led to their destruction... The Precursors were so advanced that it seems strange that they would never have done similar experiments. As a far larger and more spread out race, their destruction may have taken years... far longer than the destruction of the Androsynth.

All I have to say is that reading the Warlok files from Timewarp's site is very informative, howeverit also kinda ruins the plot if Timewarp follows it (and a very fitting name too).

This raises a question though; why the opposing meanings between the two?  *party* by itself in your opinion would seem to mean a definite fight between the Orz and whoever they were talking to.  Ex: We're going to have a *party* with so and so.  *Alliance party*, though, would have to be towards someone else, since the Orz join your side.  Granted, they seem to invade your star base, but they don't cause any harm; they seem like they're just looking at all the pretty buttons, and they do give you their ship designs.

So why would *party* and *Alliance party* have two opposite meanings/direct objects?  Only if *Alliance* were a sort of negatory adjective like "anti" on top of its normal function of giving the idea of teaming up, but you'd think the translator devices would at least be able to find a sort of closer match than that which would be less confusing if that really was the case. (less confusing being the operative word, since everything about the Orz is never clear, just several layers of confusion. Maybe that's what they're talking about with *above* and *below*; a high or low level of absolute, "out of it" confusion ;D )

maybe *Alliance* is a modifier, that means something like "with other people".

it isn't really an opposite meaning, it just means that the people the Orz plan to *dance* with aren't the people right there.

I'm sorry Krulle, but I still don't get how *party* can possibly mean "war"?
Take for instance this line from the Orz:
I am already telling the everything story. It is too much.  You do not asking about us the many.  Next it is the *party* and you will *become*.  It is best.  After this you are so *happy* you do not ask the many questions.  Do you anticipate? Yes! You do!  I am too *tired* the *silly* word *game*.
"Next it is the war and you will *become*  It is best.  After this you are so *happy* you do not ask the many questions."????
That just doesn't seem to fit.  Now, if *party* were to mean some process you will go through, with the help of the Orz, after which you will *become* (change into something new?).  That just makes more sense.  And if *alliance* does not mean our meaning for "alliance", than it must mean something else ... some other kind of joining.  A "joining process" makes sense to me.  Whether this means the Orz will absorb you, or you wil take on some new form of existence, I don't know, but it sounds a lot better than war.
This is my *house.* Did you come to *play*?.  Do not be sad if you are *other*. We can still have a *party*.  There are never enough *campers*.
Do not be sad if you are *other*(which I take to mean "enemy" based on other things they say).  We can still have a war"????
You want to *take* *silly* words in *slow time*. It is okay.  I will *spit* words and then perhaps it is the *party*.  Welcome to my *house* or *other house*.  It is a joke! Only it is my *house*.
I will *spit* words and then perhaps it is the war."????
Pleasant *combinations*! We have been *anticipating* about you.  Do you like *parties*? We do several times, and so much the better.
and
So much *juicy*! Let's have *party time* sooner.
Although I do admit lines like this:
If you are *sick* you should have a *party*.
We can come and *play* at your *house*.
and
*Extra sick fish* need *special training* for extra *fun*.  We will have a *happy party* now.
do seem to point to hostilities, but I still think the Orz are trying to tell you that if you went through the process, you'd understand them better and not be so hostile to them.
They say:
Going. Yes. Orz is go with you same place for *party*.  Nobody is forget.  Next is *alliance* *party*. Always promise is good to keep.  So much pleasure is coming, Orz and the you is change together as soon as *camping* is started.  You are not even aware, and then everyone is so happy.  You are not forget. Alliance is promise.
Orz are wait.
The line about changing together once *camping* is started hints that the Orz intend for you to go through some change with them or with their help.
And this line just kills the war meaning for me:
Orz is upset! Not one the many!  We are *squeezing* the *juice*!  You are showing that you are not *happy campers*  and so Orz cannot have the *party*.  Orz need *party* or there is no fun and we are *frumple*  everyday.  This is so sad, Orz is upset of course.
If we are not *happy campers* then the Orz cannot have the war????  Orz need war or there is no fun and we are *frumple* everyday????
If I am to believe you, then the Orz are the kin of Klingons because it would mean they REALLY love wars.
There's more:
*Sorry* is good fun. Yes, we are see it is the *game*.  You are strangest *campers*, but Orz is understand now.  We will come to your *house* and we will be *sorry* too.  Then is *partytime*.  Oh, the funny *joke* is *sorry*. There are no more *silly cows*.  This is *happy town* after all!
and
Orz are not *dissolve*! Why is the *silly cow* say Orz are *dissolving*?  Too much crazy perhaps. You are so sick even for a *party*.  Again I am *squeezing* the *juice*. Nnnggaaaahhh!!  It does not even helping.
and
Orz cannot be *strange*. Orz is Orz. Strange is other thing.  You are the *silliest cow* even more so.  At least you can *dance* with Orz.  After the *dancing* Orz think you will make good *special sauce*.  Maybe even for other Orz *party*, so do not be sad.
and
Who is it? It is the *not Campers*.  Maybe you have come to Taalo *playground* for a *Picnic*.  No!!! It is not the case! *Silly Cows* can never have a *picnic*.  Of course. Not even a party.  If you are gone, Orz can have fun some more.
and
Yes. Yes. You say words, then I say.  It is fun *in between*. More fun than *dancing*.  Many *gravity centers* in *heavy space* make good *party places*.  This is why we like the *New Town*. So many *Campers* and then what?  Even the *Playgrounds*! Such a surprise!  At this *Playground*, Taalo are making *Time jokes*. It is too funny for the Orz.  Taalo are in *heavy space* and next what?  They spread to *Pretty Space* because Dnyarri are chasing them.  Now Dnyarri are sleeping, so Orz can *chase* them.
Then we can have a *party*. They are even better *campers* than you.  Do not feeling bad. You are good enough *campers*, but not yet.
It seems to me that the Orz want you and the Taalo to go through this *party* (this process), but the Taalo are avoiding them.  It's not a war, it's something completely different.
Only *campers* can go to the *playground*.  *Alliance parties* are often a good idea for better *parties*.  Even for *picnics*.  Do you want to be *campers* for the *friendly days*?
and
Who are you? You are not Orz! We are Orz! Orz are happy *people energy* from the outside.  Inside is good. So much good that Orz will always *germinate*.  Can you come together with Orz for *parties*?
and
Here is *bright* and *smooth*. The other place is *hurt* Orz too much tired for keeping together.
Other place is **Frumple**. Orz are here now, but almost not yet.  Soon Orz are really here! You are help Orz with *parties*.  Orz looking for you, and find you. So much joy!!
Now *smooth* place all the time, and after now never going back to outside.  Never!!
and
This is my *house*. Do you want to know a *secret*? Do not *think* it to *not campers*.  You are so many *lonely* *juicy* *bubbles*. It is so sad.  Now that you are *campers* you will have more *parties*  and no more *sad* *lonely* *bubbles*.  This is the *secret*.
and
I am *expanding!* It is so much *squishy* to *smell* you!  *Campers* are the best! I have *anticipation* and then what?  Better parties in *the middle* for sure.
and
You are a *silly* *camper*. I am always Orz.  If I was not Orz, then I would not be, but of course I am Orz.  We are from *outside*. Also the Arilou *quick babies* are from *outside*.  It is the same, but not.  Orz are from *below*, Arilou are from *above*.  Orz does not like Arilou. Arilou are too much trouble.  We can not have *parties* when Arilou always *jumping in front*.  It makes Orz *frumple* so much.  These are *fat* words. Do you want to play this some more?
and
Pleasant *combinations*! We have been *anticipating* about you.
Do you like *parties*? We do several times, and so much the better.
and
So much the better! Orz have been waiting for *alliance* time.  I will show you the inside.  It is so good that you will never leave.  Oh, I am so excited for expecting *alliance parties*.  Yes! Yes! Reconsider is best.
and
Jumping *peppers*!! This is smiley time!
You are *campers* after all!!  We will start *alliance* *parties* for better enjoyment!
and
Yes! Think and then do! You will tell us soon. Soon is now.  *Parties* can be so much fun for other reasons.  *Alliance* is good.
and
We are not *dead*. Orz is never *dead*.
Orz is thinking *silly cow* are want to *dance*.  Orz can *dance* very well *in between* but not as much fun as *parties*.
and
I *smell* you so much. *Campers* are pleasant.  You are coming again to the *Playground*.  We can have extra fun for future *parties* in *quick time*.
and
I am so sad myself. You are not here and then I do not think of *parties*.  Oh well. It is so much excitement for the next time.  You must leave now so then you must come back.  Yes. I understand very well.

If you bothered to read through all these, you can see that the Orz speak of parties so much, it may be the single most important thing to them.  I am not saying I know exactly what party means to the Orz, but I very much doubt it means "war".

Well, it's late, so I'm not going to make a long-winded reply, but if you ask me, a *party* sounds like a process where the Orz can bring more of themselves over into the *smooth* space, aka TrueSpace.  Apparently though, it needs willing participants, for them to "anchor" on to in order to pull themselves into TrueSpace, maybe?

Garthor, that sounds right.  If they used the Androsynth *juice* or *sauce* to become more solid in TrueSpace, then they would need more *happy campers* to bring more of them here.  They seem to express that this space is easier for them and that they were hurt where they came from.

So, perhaps they did not kill the Androsynth, nor eat them, but rather the Androsynth are in some way, now part of the Orz.  This would fit the Arilou words:
There are no more Androsynth now. Only Orz.
Perhaps the Orz need to use matter from living beings from our universe in order to take form here.  This would also explain why the Androsynth were looking up ghosts.  If the Orz first appeared without solid form, they would be very much like ghosts.

And as for "long-winded", yes, my replies are often that, but thanks for the offhanded remark.   ;D

-PsiPhi

Ah the conversation turned to alien speech.  :-/ I always hated talking about it as it seemed that some get too sucked into it for my taste (ie: the translater does so and so therefor it should've put a better world in the place of *smell*). To me it's less of a translater and more of a script, it doesn't have to make complete sense (as long as it explains the game well enough, like it does, it's fine by me). Anyway, that said, I'm not even going to bother trying to respond, but I do have something new regarding "easy places" PsiPhi....

I was talking to the Arilou again and I realized something new. They said that there is only one naturally accuring portal from "hyperspace to quasi-space." So I was thinking that maybe there were 9 other, natural portals, which are based in different dimensions and that those are the Arilou's easy places. Ah well. I doubt we'll ever fully understand what an easy place is (besides that one time the Arilou never bring it up again).  :-/

Yeah ZeroArmy, that's kind of what I meant yesterday when I said:



Speculation on them being in other dimesions, just as likely.

Oh, and about the excessive quoting.  Sorry about that.  I think it's obvious I love to analyze things to death (why else would I be on a forum?),  I mean, after all, I am the guy who had made an attempt at an Orz dictionary 8 years ago.

-PsiPhi

Yep, seems that *nggn* aren't the Orz. You have me convinced. :)



I think that Taalo didn't *slide* to Orz's dimension but something else. When Orz arrived to truespace they found about Taalo.

Okay, i must confess that it doesn't seem completly rigth to me anymore. Although the translation did work for me quite good for a while. But i never translated
*party* := war, but *party* = +- war (e.g. any engagement to change one or the others status as living). And that seems be quite fitting with the other lines:
So I annoy the Orz about something. But they are happy, that I can *dance* them. (BTW, I never had this line, do they say this while we're *allied*?)
So Orz plans something with us. And he promises so. And the change starts the moment we ally. But the change seems to change Orz as well. But since nobody is able to understand what's happening, we might just have to wait. Maybe someone can ask Orz, if only some volunteers can enjoy the *party*, so that we can better understand, before all of humanity enjoys the *party*. Maybe that's possible, since Orz is ready to wait for us. ;)
Okay, Orz whishes to show us the *inside*, his inside?  :P
*become* part of him?  :P And according to Orz, we are anticipating (and thus waiting) for this to happen, although we might not know it ourself. Therefor the *change* cannot be something terrible according to the view of Orz. And if he needs us just for himself to live, i do not think he'd say something like us anticipating the *becoming*.
That can be translated as i suggested first with war. It is a common knowledge, that words can hurt more than weapons. So why can't a war follow some *spit* words. And *spiting* can mean the careless use of words. And history of earth shows us enough examples, that this can lead to very bloody wars.

For a new conclusion to me:
Orz whishes us to join *his party* to *become*, although he might show us the *party* *inside* and we'll never leave the *party* because we are enjoying ourselves there.
Sounds a little bit like the Borg to me. The Hive is now outside this dimension but whishes to spread to this dimension by making *campers* *become* part of the *inside* on a *party*.

Don't take this Borg-idea al too seriously, the idea might stay the same (the *squirting colors* could be our mind connecting to the hive, the *change* (assimilation) could convert our body, so that formerly differently looking drones all look the same. And a *finger* is therefore the single entity part of the hive). Just as another idea which came up to me. But even the Borg figth to expand. And even to the Borg expansion is important. Therefor war remains important to the Borg. If Orz is something like the Borg-Queen, the the Orz are the Borg-drones, and these have to fight for the expansion of Orz (the Borg-Queen.^{Okay, here it starts sounding like the Mycon spreading the Juffo-Wup.}
Should be enough for now.

But I thank you, PsiPhi for this productive discussion. Makes me discover more and more sideways of the SC-Universe. Thanks TFB, especially the Twin Gods Of Everlasting Entertainment Fred Ford and Paul Reiche!!!!!!! I really enjoy this universe you've designed so many years ago...

Oh sorry, I must've read past that.



heh, don't feel bad I'm the king of quotes. ;) But, anyway, at least you don't quote things incorrectly (remember the Ultron thing?).  ;D



Happy days and jubilation! My endless ranting and re-reading things, from the game, finally payed off!   ;)



Oh ok, I wasn't sure exactly what you meant before. Anyway, it makes sense, but I still don't get that what they mean by *time tricks.* It seems as though it would mean that the Taalo did something to them at one point or another and since the Taalo aren't in True-space anymore, it would have to mean that it happened in another dimension. Then again the Orz aren't known for making complete sense, so who knows.  :-/

Thank you ErikLich. Makes it easier for me to support my view of *things*.


Ship designs: We cannot use them when Orz leaves us. That's one of the most important basics in SC2. You have the designs but no officers to fly the ship.
*party* - *alliance party*: war - warcomrades. It isn't the opposite, but it ain't the same thing.It's the same, but then it is not.
BTW: The fight between Orz and the one he's been talking to is the *dance*.
Orz on starbase watching pretty buttons: They prepare to take the starbase apart??? Mind you, this is just another theory! And the starbase is constructed by the Ur-Quan Kzer-Za but doesn't need any Ur-Quan to be run. Therefor Orz might be interested in copying the design to run one himself, or to understand it before running this one after your assimilation.

That's an interesting new theory, PsiPhi...  a bit borg-ish, but hey, it too fits all the facts...

That doesn't quite explain the Taalo though.  If they had been changed by the Orz, the Orz wouldn't speak of them as they do.  So where DID they go?

Yes, this is what I am thinking as well.  I could see *party* meaning "war", or at least appearing to be a war to us humans in certain uses of the word.  This is what I was saying earlier when I said:

I am glad you are starting to see this as well.  I concede that there are places where war seems to be the best fit, but I just think there is so much more behind the word *party*, as is every other word inside **, that *party* is a concept we can never completely understand, unless we were to go through it, but who knows if we would then be able the same after it.  Most likely not.


Yes, in this case, I agree with you.  The Orz do not view *party* as a bad thing and they think that if we ally with them, then we want this change.


This is a very good metaphor.  Although, yes they are not the Borg, perhaps they may be something similar.  Yes, survival is important to all species.  I always saw Juffo-Wup to be the Mycon's coding instructions, in essence, their DNA.  If they are a construct and a tool for some other unknown, greater race (perhaps the Precursors), then as part of their DNA, there is an agenda, instructions with the intent to spread.  They brag about their DNA being so much more complex than ours and the Umgah confirm this.  If Juffo-Wup is a shortened way to describe Mycon DNA, and/or their overall agenda, than spreading their DNA throughout the galaxy is extremely important.  This goes for the Orz as well.  They have some unknown and complex agenda and *parties* definitely describes it, but in a way we cannot fully grasp.  If part of Juffo-Wup is making war, then part of having *parties* may have to do with making war.

Yes, absolutely.  Through reasonable collective discussion, we can come togehter to agree that both our points can fit into the meanings.  This is just part of the brilliance of this game.  It always leaves you guessing and dying for more.  There is always things you don't get to understand, but are driven mad trying.  Paul and Fred definitely captured this and used it to make all these people completely addicted to their story.

To ErekLich:  I don't claim this theory as my own.  It is only through discussion with others that I've come to see this as a possibility.  I have always believed the Orz to be a singular creature (at least of mind) with multiple *fingers* appearing to us.  It seems that others agree with this theory, thereby validating that my thinking was not completely out there.  Other people on this forum have referred to the Orz as a "hive mind" before Krulle compared them to the Borg here.
  As for the Taalo, make no mistake.  I've never said that they are now part of the Orz or are even willing to go through this *party* experience.  If any thing, it seems that they are completely uninsterested and trying to avoid the Orz.  Perhaps, like the Arilou, the Taalo have met the Orz in their travels in other dimensions when they escaped from this dimension.  The Orz seem to be after them for having a *party* with them.  Perhaps the Orz feel that finding the Taalo *Playground* makes this easier for them.  They are now closer to finding the Taalo.

Thank you Krulle for sharing your points and backing them with plausible data.  I only try to do the same.  I think through calm, reasonable discussion, we can learn more by fleshing out our points in a constructive manner.

-PsiPhi

PsiPfi - WOW.  There must have been some fairly substantial effort involved in making that list.

True, true.  Certainly the speculations being developed here point to where the original creators probably would have gone with the story (ie, the Orz's "process", an idea which definitely is sequel-worthy) but until the creators/authors make a return to this we can only go so far.  

Though apparently it's a moot issue to begin with for me  ::)

The Orz process is quite interesting. There was supposed to be a part in the real SC3 (not the joke from Accolade) that involved it.

It had to be done Azarule.  Those are direct quotes from the text file.  In order to reach some form of consensus, I felt it important we look at every mention of *party* by the Orz.

(oh, and it's spelled)
-PsiPhi

I have been wondering how much of the Orz' language can be accounted for by the fact, that they or their manifestations are fish. At least *Enjoy the sauce* makes pretty instant sense from a fishy point of view. If they are deep-sea fish, the basic pointers of the passage of time (sun, stars, yadda) are missing, replaced by changes in the seas, which may not be seasonal or in any way indicative of past time. Also the *above* and *below* could be "fishy" concepts, since movement in those directions is very natural for fish, but for humans walking upwards implies different things than walking forward.

So, what are you thinking ... tartar *sauce*?  Then perhaps that phrase is the Orz insult for "bite me"?  Lastly, should we infer then that the Orz are telling us the Arilou have gill-slits hidden somewhere on their bodies?  Wait ... NO ... Wings!   ;)

-PsiPhi

Whew, just started thinking of all the possibilities. Even several new "original" StarCons won't answer our questions. Following ideas are sequel/prequel worthy, just to answer us some questions:

Prequels:
 The Syreen voyage
 The Ur-Quan slave revolt
 The Taalo hide
 FRUNGY!
 The Mael-Num hide'run
 The Druuge treaching the Burvixese
 a kind of a civilization-style game with the Zoq-Fot-Piq vs. Zebranky
 The Adaption of the Shofixti by the Yehat
 FRUNGY!
 The development of the symbiotic relation between the Supox and the Utwig
 ...

Sequels:
 The Orz *Everything* *Story*
 The plan of the Arilou
 The findings of the Mark II
 FRUNGY!
 The Mycon story (could also be a prequel)
 The Umgah story (are they products of their own ancestors, tampering with the genes of others in their race? Do the live in brains and move "normal" bipedal beigns by touching certain nerves?
 The Shofixti/Yehat/Pkunk Threesome
 The Melnorme long range plan
 The Voyage to the Galactic core, to find out about the Rainbow-Planets
 More FRUNGY!
 Trapping the *NGNN*
 ....

Okay, some are going to be just time-killers like Solitaire (only more addictive), but
TFB, I think you've got more work than you have accounted for. So get starting! PLEASE![/i][/u]   ::)

That fits my feelings of the Orz-Taalo-Story also best.

That's what discussions are for.

Good evening everybody!

I believe similarly in that I think that the Orz are either the eternal1s themselves, as a projection into normal space or that they are a herald of the eternal1s, preforming similarly to the race calling themselves the heralds in scIII, but they, being as a similar form of existence as the eternal1s have to 'project' themselves from their space.

Okay, Krulle...

I don't think they need to make umpteen billion games just to answer one little question per game.

I actually think that things like Frungy ought to remain unanswered.

It's like in Calvin and Hobbes, whenever they talk about the "noodle incident".  There are no details, and I think that's awesome.  Things like Frungy would lose their magic if they were explained away.  I like far better the guessing and questioning.

That said, I would like to know exactly what happened to teh Taalo... but as for Frungy, the Melnorme's potentially ominous plans, and (as this thread is aobut) the Arilou and Orz, the guessing ismore fun than knowing would be.

Drak:  I realize you're new here... we beat the Eternal1 bit to death earlier in the thread, and finally agreed to leave SC3 out of it...

Alright then, just having played 1-3 thats the way I've assumed it would work out. SCIII had its problems, but it was a good game and atleast had some overall thought into how it would link to II, I would imagine it would be difficult to do given how the second one ends off. Its like they made SCII to finish off everything but left so much unexplained.

They are fish, so they most likely have more words for water than one. Most likely these words would mean different mixtures of substances in water and such stuff. Sauce could be a fine approximation of that. Also they live in water, they breathe it, everything they do is done in it and is somehow affected by it. Have a nice life, or maybe have fine weather or some such...

For the Taalo discussion, the Orz say "Taalo are in *heavy space* and next what?" and "They spread to *pretty space* because Dnyarri are chasing them"
So seems to me like they got away.

Actually, I have to agree with Krulle on the spirit of this, but Krulle, you missed out on one area with SO much potential.  A story taking place during the thousands of years of the Sentient Milieu, BEFORE the discovery of the Dnyarri.  There is such much room for originality here.  Who were the Yuli, Drall, Taalo, Mael-Num, Foz, Yuptar and brown Ur-Quan?  If anything, I think a story told from the perspective of the brown Ur-Quan would be ingenius.  Imagine, playing as a member of the race with SUCH a complex future, back when they were basically where the humans are in SC+SC2.


On this point though Ereklich, I couldn't agree more.  Things like Frungy and Nggn are better left mysteries to ponder and enjoy.


Thanks Ereklich.  If you didn't say it, I certainly would have.  Drakthius, please know that there are topics specifically dedicated to SCIII on this forum.  I enjoyed SCIII as well, as flawed in linear plot as it was and I also played them in order from SC through SCIII, but read all the past posts on here.  There's a lot ... this is currently one of the most if not the most active topics on the forum.  And I'm afraid I have a large portion of the honor/blame for its length.  If you can't find a topic that fits what you'd like to discuss, start a new one.  Thanks for understanding.

-PsiPhi

Yeah, you are right about that! Put it on the list of possible prequels.
Another one forgotten is the run of the Precursors running away from whatever they were trying to avoid.

Even I believe, nobody will be able to answer frungy. It's like 42 in the Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy (for me). Yesterday I answered all questions with "FRUNGY!" Man, that was fun, to see all these faces!  ;D   The people just don't know what to ask...
The list was meant as a collection of open ends. Not all answers need to be given, but each game with answers will arise even more questions. Whis to bet on that?

RE: Androsynth

I am a little late on this one, but the Androsynth were NOT exact copys of human beings.  They could not reproduce.  Perhaps when human scientist made this change to their DNA they cut out a little bit more than the fun stuff.  (I had always assumed that the Arilou's "changing the smell" occured in pre-human-historic times, anyways.)

Also, reading this quote reminded me of long forgotten confusion:

Taalo are in *heavy space* and next what?  They spread to *Pretty Space* because Dnyarri are chasing them.  Now Dnyarri are sleeping, so Orz can *chase* them.

Am I the only one who thought that the Orz are referring to the Dnyarri, not the Taalo here?  Perhaps the Dnyarri, with all of their psychic powers, could be used as a weapon against the psychic Arilou...

-DutchElmDisease

Hmm, Orz does know the difference between now and then, but his language does not have a past tense. But his language does differ for single beings and mutiple beings (Dnyarri are, Orz is). He uses the singular only for himself.

Good point. I've thought of Orz chasing the Dnyarri, but never thought of a reason why.

But i do not believe that he meant chasing the Dnyarri, because Orz couldn't even *smell* this *space*. But the Dnyarri were here, in this dimension. And the Taalo spread into *pretty space*.

Another interesting point: Orz didn't see the Talking pets, he saw the Dnyarri sleeping. He knew about the Dnyarri chasing the Taalo, he knew the Dnyarri are sleeping (remember the Umgah-talking pet talking about his dreams during the several years of subconsciousness?), although he (Orz) wasn't in this dimension and knew nothing about it.
Did the Taalo tell him?
Or are dreams part of another dimension, one in which Orz lives. And he is becoming a living nightmare? HELP!

EDIT: I've just started the Poltergeistalarm! But i know the game, therefor i won't start searching for describtions about being haunted. I'll just dissolve one day. Revenge me, if you still can....

How about this Arilou quote?
"No. We seek not to invade, but to pervade. There is a difference.
Your stories of evil creatures... these are just... side effects.
Pay them no heed."
Hmm... they also mention "our earth".

I know this topic died out a few days ago, but I just got here and had one observation I wanted to add...

Does it really matter if Orz knew about something before it arrived, if it does in fact exist in/at *all times*? Orz couldn't sense us/this dimension until the Androsynth started playing with the IDF technology, but once it did sense us/ this place it came. At that point, since it exists at all times, it knew about us before they got here, even though they didn't...
Same with their interaction with the Taalo. Does Orz exist in all times at the location it's *fingers* occupy? Then they could have conflicts with the Taalo when they lived in the same area of space, even though that didn't originally happen.
Just one of those wonderful time paradoxes to add to all the rest of the mystery. I'm not sure that I myself believe what I just posted, but it certainly is helping make even more things possible in my mind... as if there weren't enough possibilities already.

has it ever occured to anyone that the Orz may not be a sngular entity but rather a large empire like most other races?

Most empires often refer to huge fleets or armies as a tool or weapon like "The Hammer of the Emperor"

*fingers* is a bad translation of what could simply be fleets and ships or even individual Orz

The Orz's line goes something like this:

"I am Orz.  I am one with many *fingers*.  My *fingers* reach through into *heavy space* and you think you see Orz but it is really *fingers*."

This seems to fairly clearly suggest that what we see as an individual Orz is actually a small part, or projection of a larger entity, most likely one that doesn't even reside on this plane.  Of course other possibilities are present, but that seems like the most logical one.  Perhaps the Orz just have some form of hive mind.

The Spathi had to have been right. The Orz must have found Androsynth flesh to be delicious and ate them.

Okay, just want to through in an idea I had while playing the game.  I was thinking "if the Orz crossed into True Space from another dimension, where is the portal that brought them?".  Then, I started to wonder "well, maybe the Orz closed the portal after themselves, if they need a portal-type thingy at all".  That of course, begs the question why would they do such a thing.  What if they closed the portal/passage/easy place to prevent something else from coming through after them (so they are some sort of Inter-dimensional refugees)!  For example, I never really felt that the invisiable "slashers" on the Androsynth homeworld and the Orz were one and the same, the behavoir dosn't really match up.  But what if the Orz came to True Space in order to flee these "slashers", and the "slashers" are some of those Things Man Was Not Meant to Know that the Arilou mentioned?  That would explain a few things:

The Arilou don't trust the Orz.  However, in this version of events, it's not the Orz themselves the Arilou don't trust, but the association between the Orz and the "slashers".  They are worried that you getting close to the Orz will allow the "slashers" to *smell* humanity.  And maybe the Arilou aren't sure the Orz kept ALL the *slashers* out.  

The Orz don't like the Arilou, as the Arilou kept them from "migrating" to another dimension before.  Of course, the Orz don't like this, but from the Arilou point of view it was justified in order to protect True Space.  But that explains the Arilou-Orz mutual distrust.

The Orz don't want you asking about the Androsynth as they are worried that by you knowing too much these "slashers" will *smell* Truespace and come across (similar to the Arilou, but they can't explain it was well).  This might also explain why the Orz seem to be going out of their way to "fit in" with the normal True Space races, they are trying to mask thier *smell*.  And why they might of destroyed the Androsynth after they came (they knew too much).  It does NOT explain why they let you investigate the Androsynth homeworld, though.  Also, if the "slashers" could *smell* the Androsynth before, why aren't they coming to TrueSpace except on the Androsynth homeworld?  Maybe they can only *smell* the parts that people who Know Too Much live(d)?

It's possiable the Arilou and the Orz are not diametricly opposed, but simply have somewhat different views of the same subject.  Basically, the Arilou want to keep ALL extra-dimensional critters out of True Space, while Orz, now that they are here, don't want anybody else coming in either.  

What so people think, totally whacky or being some merit?  I don't have a lot of time to go through the dialouge looking for evidence, but I am sure I could find something to support this.  The biggest stumbling block is how the Orz say they are not *light reflections*, they are only *fingers*.  I have some ideas on that, but I've jabbered on long enough tonight.  :D  

My second, and much more mudane explanation, is that the Orz and Arilou have simply fought (or are fighting) some inter-dimensonal cross-time turf war, and have been fighting it for *time* out of mind, and Orz have opened up a new "theater of operations" (Hyperspace/Truespace, circa 2157 AD  ;)).  

-Will

P.S . Do people think the Orz crossed over with all the current technology they have, or developed after they arrived.  I mean, if you look at sphere of influence, it is quite small, implying (I think) a smaller number of ships.  So, did they have a small number to start with, or did they start from scratch?  Thier tech must also not be too different from normal, if your Star Base can replicate it.  Plus no interia-less drives or quasi-space portals like the Arilou have.          

See, I've just never thought that the plot of SC2 was all that complicated. To have that kind of big bad backstory and not mention it, um, at all, that doesn't seem like TFB's style. The Orz killing the Androsynth is the obvious answer, and I can't think of really any point in SC2 that had twists where the obvious answer WASN'T the real answer.

Just getting ready to try out the not so coveted SCIII, and I thought about something. This has got to be one of the most discussed issues in the SC series. What the heck do the Orz and Arilou have in common? I mean aside from the fact that they both seem like parasites to me.

The Ariloulaleelay and the Orz share only one "official" connection: from the context of their speech and patterns (and from the game SCII itself), it is clear that the Arilou and the Orz are both from a different type of reality/time/space/whatever than we are as humans. Though, yes, they do both seem kind of like parasites when you take certain things in the game into account...

By the way, I'd like to thank everyone who's posted on this thread; I never thought it'd grow to be this large, or that more than three people or so would give their tuppence. Thank you so much, everyone!

The portal was made by the Androsynth (IDF-research on their homeworld). These portals seemed closed when your scientist arrived.
Okay: I'd say you've proven that Orz has nothing to do with these slashers and that Orz doesn't know about them. Other wise he wouldn't have let you research the Androsynth ruins.
IF he knew about the slashers:
where did the slashers go after the destruction of the Androsynth? I just do not believe, that Orz made a population control of these *slashers* and cut of his own way home.

The Arilou LaLee'lay don't mind much about other Inderdimensional beings. Just about some of them (like the *Nggn*,...). Only those that can harm you.
And the Orz do not talk much about the subject lifeforms in the place of their origin.
Maybe these two are like the shadows and the vorlons (SpacecenterBabylon5). One (the Arilou) seems the better way, but both are not to be trusted beyond certain points.


Gotta get some sleep. Sorry for the weird answers?

Did SC3 explain whatever the *nggn* were? I don't remember SC2 every explaining a damn thing about that. I haven't even played SC3 yet, but I've wanted to for the longest time.

I always thought the Orz were an obvious reference to Edwin A. Abbott's "Flatland".  The implication being that they were 3 dimensional projections of the *FINGERS* of some sort of 4 dimensional creature whose nature and motives we will never be able to fully grok because of our three-dimensionalness.

Oh, and I think the Orz are evil.  Like the most evil creatures in the game.  Way more evil than Dynarri.  The Arilou are evil too, but only a little, and that really makes the Orz mad.  Only pure evil is good enough for them.

OTOH, the Orz might just be insane fish creatures talking about whatever nonsense happens to be bubbling around their heads at the moment.

WolfJaguar: No, SC3 does not explain the *Nggn*. It does not explain anything about the other dimensions. Even the way other dimensions appear are very different from SC2.

Tom Schumm: I do not know Abott's "Flatland", therefor i cannot confirm if it is a reference.

Here's my .02:



Basically I take this to mean that the Arilou's plane of existence is higher up than the Orz. Think of it as a pyramid, with Truespace being sort of the middle level, Hyperspace being a bit higher, Quasispace higher still. This correlates exactly with travel distance - hyperspace 'contracts' distances between stars in normal space, and quasispace 'contracts' distances even more. The Orz are obviously from something quite a bit below Truespace, and our space is also 'contracted' in relation to that dimension. Which kinda explains why the Orz prefer Truespace - their dimension must be incredibly vast, and, well, boring.



I think it's the things you see in hyperspace and quasispace, darting and leaping. *Nggn* is probably the Arilou word for them, and that's about as mysterious as it gets. What they actually are is anyone's guess, I'm betting they're some sort of 'energy source', at least in the sense that the Arilou benefit from them.



Well, most of the stuff already said here, I agree with, I'd only like to explain a few things that I have differing opinions on:

*many bubbles* - not cells, as someone put it, but three-dimensional matter - what are we, other than a collection of many bubbles (particles)?

*heavy space* - Truespace, and other planes of existence which have three-dimensional matter with mass. This ties in with:

*gravity centers* - Stars, planets, any occurence where gravity pulls all the 'bubbles' together to make actual physical places.



I also think the Orz is actually one single entity, and the fingers are something akin to 'souls'. Not the religious sense of the word, but 'conciousness'. The Orz are manifested here as fishlike creatures, but unlike us, they lack separate 'souls', and are instead a sort of 'puppets' that the Orz entity uses to make contact with heavy space. Since it seems the Orz dimension is non-physical as far as we understand the term 'physical', it makes sense for the creature to call the manifestations it uses to interact with things in this reality 'fingers'.

As to the Androsynth, this is pure guesswork, but I think they were used to create physical manifestations for the Orz. They're not *happy campers* because they resisted. As long as you are friendly and cooperate with the Orz, you are deemed as a willing 'donor' of your biomaterial. If you start asking about the Androsynth, you're deemed as unwilling and therefore unfriendly. The Orz aren't evil per se, they just think it completely normal that others sacrifice themselves for Orz. They consider us vastly different from themselves, and quite possibly inferior. I don't think they're evil in the classic sense, because a nonsocial singular entity can't really have a concept of morals.



Beats me. Probably using their understanding of linear time to their advantage in dealing with the Orz, whether that dealing means 'running away' or 'doing business' or whatnot.



Interfering, or more accurately, doing preemptive work to thwart the Orz. Since they have no clear understanding of linear time, they can't say 'getting there before we do', so they use the present-tense approximation 'jumping in front'.



Because our previously mentioned 'souls' (and I reiterate that I mean this in a non-religious way) are at least partly extradimensional, explaining why Earth scientists can't detect what the Arilou did to us. They probably tweaked our 'souls' so they moved to a dimension or realm undetectable to the Orz and other such entitites. The IDF experimentations negated this: Interdimensional Fatigue - creating cracks and fissures between various dimensions, probably resulting in a point or portal which can access several different dimensions at once. The Androsynth did this, and at first the Orz, and whatever else might have seen this portal, came through in their noncorporeal form, detectable to the Androsynth via their nonphysical 'soul', but not to any of their equipment, because that only detects normal matter and energy. After a bit of looking around, the Orz apparently started consuming the Androsynth in order to give physical form to its *fingers*. My take on this - Androsynth are dead, gone, never coming back.


And somewhat related to the discussion here, here's how I rate some SC2 races in order of evilness.

1. Melnorme - They seriously creep the bejesus out of me, what the hell do they need with the rainbow worlds?
2. Orz - It/they may not be doing it out of anything resembling 'malice', but if it/they needs more fingers, we're supposed to be *happy campers* and comply.
3. Arilou - I'm dead sure they're not altruistic, and doing this because they love us so much, but I don't think they're evil. I think they admire us, such as you would admire a puppy who learns that his tail is his own and there's no need to chase it. I don't think we're cattle to them, and although they're using us for some reason, they're also going to ensure our survival if they can.

Interesting...the Orz mention something about how it's too difficult to *hold together* in their home dimension, so they went to *heavy space* where it was easier.  If *below* was as much more spread out than Truespace as Truespace was to Hyperspace, thent that would make a good deal of sense.

Though I admit that risking getting into a debate with PsiPhi is madness, I had a thought.

The Arilou are experts in all things dimensions, right?
They are casual users of QuasiSpace, they try to catch *Nggn*, they know of other dimensions, of the Orz and of things that humanity would not want to be seen by (unless those things are the Orz) etcetera etcetera ad nauseam.

The Arilou, who are all of the above, say that there are no more Androsynth. That seems like a pretty conclusive piece of evidence against the survival of the Androsynth to me.

Comments?

Entirely possible.  There are a few other possibilities, though--for instance, though they seemed to know after the fact that the Talking Pet was dangerous, they still handed it over to the Umgah without thinking--clearly they don't know EVERYTHING.  And while the Arilou ARE experts on other dimensions, I would venture a guess that they're probably lying to you.  After all, if we pursue the matter further, we are likely to be "seen".

But on the other hand, it is unlike the Arilou to lie.  Usually rather than lying they just say "There is more to know here, but it is dangerous for you to know it, so we will not tell you.  Do not seek to find out" and just assume you won't.  And moreover, the Arilou are suggesting that the Orz are responsible for the destruction of the Androsynth--"The Androsynth showed themselves, and something noticed them.  There are no more Androsynth now.  Only Orz."  While this doesn't say directly that the Orz are responsible, it clearly indicates, or is meant to indicate, that they are involved.  I don't think the Arilou are lying--possibly mistaken, but not lying.  Anybody else have any ideas?

Of course the Orz are directly responsible..

"You cannot *slide* like Orz from *outside* to *inside* and *in between*.
It is sad, but Orz can *pull* the *campers* after being *connected*.
This is soon.
Orz are trying to *pull* the Androsynth, but they are so *silly*, they do not want.
Arilou can *slide*. Also Taalo. Many can *slide*, but Orz are better of course. "

The Arilou lie all the time, they just lie by ommision.

they KNOW full well that when they say "There are no more Androsynth now.  Only Orz" that you will infer that the Orz are responsible.  They may be or may not be, directly or indirectly, but I trust the Arilou about as far as the Portal Spawner.  They always have an ulterior motive.  Always.

I don't think the Arilou are the master manipulators you give them credit for.  They certainly appear to be trying to convince mankind to trust them, but no one does.  Obviously YOU don't.  What this suggests is that, unless their ultimate goal is to get mankind NOT to trust them, they're pretty bad at manipulating people.  I don't think dishonesty is in their nature.  They omit things all the time--there's HUGE amounts of information that they refuse to tell you, but they're always very clear about the fact that they cannot or will not tell you something, because you wouldn't understand or because it would be dangerous for you.

As for the Orz, I think you're probably right.  But this could be interpreted several ways.  Perhaps the Orz are trying to *pull* the Androsynth away from the invisible slashers, or are tryingn to *pull* them back from whatever mysterious dimension they're in now.

Heh... I didn't say they were good at manipulating, I just said they have an ulterior motive.

You're half-right; the Arilou do tell you when they won't tell you something.

However, they always seem to tack on an off-hand remark aimed at making you think you know what it is they're hiding.

Example: when you ask about their relationship to humanity, they won't tell you what it is.  But, they do say:

"You might even say we knew the first human"

this and some other vauge remarks hint at what they won't tell you, and I think they are intentionally misleading uswith those remarks in an attempt to keep us from being "seen".

I respectfully disagree.  I've always thought that those vague, hint-like remarks are just...well, OK:  Imagine you have a friend who's just playing SC2 for the first time.  He asks you something about what happens later in the game, and you want to tell him, but you can't.  So instead, you drop a vague, hint-like remark that doesn't really tell him anything, but when he figures it out he'll go "Oh, so <i>that's</i> what he was talking about..."  I think the Arilou are the same way.  They have some knowledge that you would never understand, or that they cannot share with you, but whatever it is is important to them, and they wish they could share it.  So they drop these vague remarks instead, purely because it's hard to keep a secret that big.

There's two things odd about your statement.  And please, I'm not trying to flame you, insult you, or belittle you in any way.  I'm just trying to figure out exactly what you meant.

First, it sounds like you're making this statement as though you're more familiar with the situation than I am.  I have no doubt that you're very familiar with the situation, but we both played the same game, and it's highly unlikely that one of us got significantly more information about the Arilou than the other.

Second, it sounds like you're really worried about me--that I might trust the Arilou too far, and it might lead me somehow to bodily injury.  It's great that you're into the game, but the fact is that the game inentionally leaves the question of whether you can trust the Arilou unanswered.

So maybe you're right.  But the question is purely academic, and only an issue of debate because we want it to be.  Within the game, it's impossible to tell.

I think they DO do some important stuff.  They find the Ur-Quan wreck, locate and rescue the talking pet, and give you four skiffs and a Portal Spawner.  The Portal Spawner is always the first thing I go for, too--cruising through hyperspace is slow even at top speed.

What you're suggesting is that the Arilou like you to think they're cool and mystical, but actually aren't that different from us?

Okay, now, I don't think the Arilou are that malevolent, and here's one of the reasons why: they give you free access to Quasispace, which gives you free access to their homeworld. Now, wouldn't this be awfully trusting of someone who was actually trying to screw you over? What if someone informs us of their evil intentions, and we proceed to whoop some Arilou ass on their homeworld? My flagship and her fleet can slice through those little skiffs like so much butter.

I don't think they're evil. Arrogantly patronizing, yes. But they're out for our best interests. And of course for theirs, but we're not being bred like cattle for the slaughter.

While the Arilou do not become close allies with you in either Star Control I or II (I ignore SC3 here, because the Arilou are portrayed as evil, psychic, A.W.O.L. bad guys), they do make their intentions clear.  The Arilou would never side with evil sides and just becaues they do not pledge their allegiance to the alliance as other races do, does not mean their loyalty be in question.  I believe, and have for some time, that the Arilou can be trusted, and maybe that's because I have always felt the bond the Arilou-Human relationship seems to have.  Being young when I first played SC2, I looked to the Arilou for advice since I saw them as all-knowing and wise little flying saucer dudes.

Sometimes I wonder where people get the ideas that the Arilou are bad, or that they aren't to be trusted... they are definately mysterious, and are not willing to reveal their entire life story to you, I think it adds more to their mystical and prominent existence.  Human beings are young and reckless, compared to the philosophic and all-knowing Arilou.  We should be the ones taking orders from them, but alas that is not their way...  they seem to have a fate much better than that.  I'm certain that Paul and Fred did not wish for the Arilou to be untrustworthy, I think their mysterious ways add to the appeal which makes the race unique and enjoyable.

Intriguing...I seem to walk the line between NEMT and Omni-Sama.  I've always felt that the Arilou were not malevolent, and never meant for anything bad to happen to us.  However, it seems like they think they know what's best for us, and I don't think that's true.  It's like a parent telling you what to do when you're already 25 years old.  What the Arilou think is best for humanity is not necessarily what is best for humanity.  Case in point: The slave shield.  They were happy, because we were safe.  We were miserable, because we were slaves.

So I don't think the Arilou are evil or manipulative.  I think they're pompous and arrogant, but I don't think they would intentionally hurt or betray us.  The trick is making sure that they're clear on what we want or need.  The Arilou might decide that betraying us to the Ur-Quan is best, since it would put us back under a shield...

For those who haven't read flatland or aren't familiar with it, here's the gist and how it relates to the Orz.  (Actually, it's been a long time since I've looked at it, and I've read a number of other lay-person books describing 4 dimensions that always refer back to flatland, so forgive me if I mix a few things up).

Basically, flatland is a story about the life and times of a two dimensional creature (a square).  He lives in flatland (a two dimensional universe) and is totally unaware of the existance of any further dimensions.  It goes on to discuss what life is like in flatland, the social structure, physiology, etc. dealing with the limitations of only having two dimensions.  All the citizens are polygons, with a caste system where the more sides you have the higher up you are.  The King is a circle.  It's a rather backwards society and all the women are narrow little triangles.  Our square is pretty much an average joe.

One day, something happens and our hero is pulled out of flatland into the three dimensional world we live in.  The square sees objects with volume and it completely blows his mind.  He discovers that flatland is just a big horizontal sheet sitting on a desk in some guy's basement.  He discovers the limitations of movement, etc. in flatland.  He can see everything and everyone in his whole universe, including their insides.  He can see inside homes, inside the palace of the king, inside everything.  None of their walls extend in three dimesions (nor does their skin).

He's returned to flatland, but now has the ability to understand three dimensions and move himself in three dimensional ways.  He tries to explain all this to his buddies and other people, but they all think he's crazy, and eventually he's captured by the king and his men and imprisoned for having unnatural powers.  Of course, they can't keep him captured because he can move about in three dimensions.  To escape their cage, he just lifts himself up into our world, moves, and drops back down.  To the King and his cronies, it appears as though he just disappeared and reappeared outside of the cage (clearly witchcraft).  He can also turn into a mirror image of himself simply by flipping over (which is otherwise impossible for everyone else in flatland).  While he's flipping, unless he pulls himself completely out of flatland, he appears to be just a line (in fact, the others would see a thin slice of his insides).  He can walk through walls by simply slipping over top of them, which the other flatlanders can't even percieve how to do.

If somebody (a person like you or me) walked up to flatland and tried to interact with it, what would happen?  If you stuck your fingers in it it would be like sticking your fingers through the surface of a pool of water.  The only things that would appear to the citizens of flatland are cross sections of your fingers - *BUBBLES* in their space.  Flatlanders would get a very wrong impression of what you look like, and would be talking to your fingers if you were having a discussion.

The whole thing is an analogy for what a four dimensional universe would be like for us.  If we got pulled into four dimensions, we could see the insides of everyone and everything.  If we were to turn ourselves around in four dimensions, we would appear to others to turn into a thin two dimensional slice of ourselves and reappear as a mirror image (imagine picking up a right shoe, flipping it around and setting it back down as a left shoe).

Our three dimesional universe would divide the four dimensional into two halves, the same way an infinite two-dimensional plane would divide ours into two halves.  Since we don't have a concept for two halves of a four dimensional universe on either side of our universe, the linguistic best fits might be *above* and *below*.  A four dimensional creature might be able to *push through* from one side to the other, depending on how dense our universe appeared to them (and it could be different densities in different places).  I can certainly stick my hand through the surface of a pool of water, but I'd have a rough time sticking it through the surface of my desk.  Since strong gravity wells distort our space-time, they might also make it easier for a four dimensional being to *push through*.  If they did push their *fingers* though, they would appear to be *bubbles* or many separate creatures (Orz).

Therefore, our ideas about the way space works seem silly and simplistic to the Orz, and since we don't have a good grasp on the idea of four dimensions, it would seem like they're talking about nonsense all the time.

In this analogy, hyperspace and quasispace would be two more three-dimensional universes lying in parallel to our own.  Since quasispace can only be reached from hyperspace, and it's inhabited (at least in part) by the Arilou, I'm assuming it's *above* hyperspace, which in turn is *above* truespace.  We can't exactly travel in four dimensions, but using advanced technology, we can push ourselves to these two adjacent universes.  Hyperspace is much like our own universe, but the laws of physics are different making it much easier to travel long distances.  Since our space is distorted by gravity wells, we it pulls away from hyperspace at these locations (hence, you have to be outside of any nearby solar systems to be able to get there or back).

Quasi-space goes further in that it's distorted and crumpled such that it touches hyperspace in just a handful of locations, and those locations would seem much closer together (again, the laws of physics in a foreign universe would be completely wacked out).

If you have a hard time picturing that, let's go back to flatland and imagine that there was another flat sheet lying on top of flatland - let's call it hyperflatland.  It's thousands of years later, so now our square is armed with a spaceship that can take him and others into this other sheet where they can travel to various interesting places.  The sheet is really slippery, and everything there seems much more light weight, so they can zip around like crazy.  When they've found a place of interest, they just drop back into flatland.  Some places in flatland (flatplanets for instance) are really heavy, and bend flatland downward, so they aren't close enough to hyperflatland so we couldn't just use the spaceship to fly inside the king's castle (since it's on a flatplanet orbiting a flatstar).

Suddenly, somebody hovering above hyperflatland gives the square a neat device that lets them take their spaceship to quasiflatland.  It's like a piece of paper that's been crumpled up and is sitting on top of hyperflatland.  The laws of physics are much different there, one effect being that distances between points seem very small, but correspond to long distances in flatland and hyperflatland.

To sum it up - Orz is a big four-dimensional monster living *below* our universe in one half of a four dimensional universe.  At some point, its interests were piqued by the Androsynth because they were playing around with some fancy technology that let them peer outside of our universe.  Orz decided to grab them and pull them out of our space (which may or may not have been intentionally malevolent), but that turns out to be both terrifying (imagine seeing the inside of everything - and that's just the start) and dangerous.  Even if they survived the process, they aren't in our universe anymore, so they actually (to our perception) don't even exist.  Orz continues to poke its fingers through our space the way we might dangle our fingers in a pool.  The cross sections of it's fingers that exist in our universe are what we percieve as the Orz.

The Arilou, being much more like us than Orz, are probably mostly three-dimensional creatures with good knowledge of three and four dimensions (and perhaps having a mind that is four dimensional) and are able to move around in four dimensions, probably with somewhat less freedom than Orz.  They live *above* our universe.  They would be much like the square in flatland after he became enlightened.  That would also support the idea that they are humans from the future.

Note, since our universe is actually sorta four dimensional (time and space) though which we have no control over our movement through time, the model is a bit more complicated.  Orz and the Arilou probably have access to time travel.

Oh, and that would also explain the interesting abilities of Arilou ships (no momentum and ability to disappear and reappear at will for example).

Very interesting.  I was not familiar with this story, and it sheds new light on the whole discussion.

Here's the question that bothers me--look at the Arilou ships.  They appear to have the ability to bounce around Truespace at will, they have no inertia, etc...Now look at the Orz ships.  Orz ships are very advanced machines of war, but they're not especially "alien" in any way.  There's no bizarre, otherworldly aspect to their technology that we cannot understand.  The manual even describes them as physiologically not unusual, saying "they appear to be straightforward gill-breathers."

It seems odd to me that the form the Orz take when pushing through from another dimension just happens to be so...physically comprehensible.  Especially if their thought processes are as alien as they seem to be.

Wouldn't they still be subject to the laws of physics etc.?  They exist in our Universe, so they would have to find a way to "live" in our Universe too.  That's what I always figured anyway. :)

I would like to point out that in Flatland, Square remains unable to move in three dimensions without the help of Sphere (who comes only once a thousand years). So he ends up stuck in prison for the rest of his life.

>>Here's the question that bothers me--look at the Arilou ships.  They appear to have the ability to bounce around Truespace at will, they have no inertia, etc...Now look at the Orz ships.  Orz ships are very advanced machines of war, but they're not especially "alien" in any way.  There's no bizarre, otherworldly aspect to their technology that we cannot understand.  The manual even describes them as physiologically not unusual, saying "they appear to be straightforward gill-breathers."<<

>>It seems odd to me that the form the Orz take when pushing through from another dimension just happens to be so...physically comprehensible.  Especially if their thought processes are as alien as they seem to be.<<

This is why I always figured the Orz had immigrated to Truepsace for good, and are not just "investigating" it, for lack of a better term.  I mean, why would wierd, extra-dimensional creatures exploring truespace need ships, or anything like that?  Or if they did need ships to get around, why build so many?  I mean, the Orz seem to have a fair amount of ships, esp. in their "core systems"?  Furthermore, why would they patrol and defend any systems at all, unless there were trying to claim them?  That's what leads me to believe, that regardless of where they actually came from, they are planning to stay in Truespace for good (or at least the forseeable future).  They trying to adapt to life in this dimension are thouroghly as possiable, and that may be the driving force behind there "Alliance Party" with you.  Of course, if they didn't have bodies as we know them from whereever they came from, they might have needed biological material to fashion them.  Provides a convient (if not entirely accurate) explantion for where the Androsynth went....

-Will      

How's that? They're HERE, and HERE you can't break the laws of physics, hence you're subject to them.

Wow. I had no idea that other people were insane enough to try to make a translation to the Orz language. A lot of the translations I saw were very close to mine, although there were some differences of course.

I have my own theory about the Orz and Arilou, but it seems that everybody does. I won't post it unless people will read and discuss it though, since it's long and brings up a lot of points that have supposedly been resolved. But if anybody's willing to discuss it (even by email), please let me know. =)

I will at the least, however, leave you all with this challenge: has anybody managed to translate **HYUIVBHJHG**? The only way you could do it (obviously) is via context, but even then I'm sure there would be several possibilities, depending on your assumptions about who the Orz are (or is) and where they (or it) truly come from.

Matticus

After a month away I'm back and what better place to post than here.  I can't believe some one resurrected this discussion.  Once I saw it fall to page three, I thought it surely dead.  It's nice to see others noticed and still have questions, as we all do.

Kizor - thanks for inferring that I'm mad.  It really brought a smile to my face to see that people have really taken the time to read through ALL these pages of posts, as a lot of us did, even the really long ones, like mine tend to be.

Matticus - thanks for inferring that I'm insane.  I guess when you enjoy something so fully, it crosses over to obsession and yeah, you look crazy to other people.  The insane fanatic ... yeah, that's me.  Seeing that you admit yourself one, why hold back?  Submit your ideas, no matter how long or how crazy they sound.  That's the point of the forum ... sharing ideas.  If you make clear, valid points and back it up, I'll read it and I'm sure others will too.
  I put out my old ORZ dictionary on here and it got criticized and "corrected" and rightfully so.  People had insights I failed to realize.  Others saw obvious flaws I just missed.  But I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong (yes, Kizor, it's possible), and I'd love to see everything presented in a new light.
  For instance, Tom Schumm's long, yet informative explanation of the concepts in the book Flatland possibly relating to how the Orz view our space and we view them is brilliant.  I've never read the book myself, but I've had many math teachers refer to it, especially my multivariable calc. professor, that I was already familiar with the ideas in it.  It fits perfectly with the idea of how one entity from another dimensional could be seen as multiple instances at the same time.
  This is why I love this topic and I'm so excited to see it resurface.

  I was recently going through an old folder I had stashed away that contained various game maps and hints from years ago and I'm so excited because I found my old SC2 notes on mineral content of various star systems.  But the best part was finding the map I had started making of Hyperspace.  It's six pieces of graph paper carefully taped together.  The entire grid is done and all the quasi space openings are marked in red, but it's mostly unfinished.  I really only added the stars in the Pkunk to Yehat region of space and I drew some of the circles of influence.  It's not very useful, but like the dictionary, it's a nice memory to have of one of my favorite games.

  Mad?  Insane?  Nah.  I'm just a die-hard fan.

-PsiPhi

I meant that they need to exist here as corporeal 3D beings in order to interact with this world fully, which is why they take the form of gill-breathing fishy things. This particular tangent started when someone wondered why the Orz were so mundane, if they're projections of an extradimensional entity. They need to be solid objects while here, because it's not as simple as the flatland example - whoever is behind the *fingers* can't simply break every law of physics in our dimension, because the access to truespace is limited to certain DF points. Unlike flatland, truespace is NOT visible from *pretty space*. My theory is that the Orz creature's conciousness, when tied to the physical shells of the Orz fishies, can 'communicate' interdimensionally, keep control of the bodies just like our individual conciousnesses control our bodies. But without a corporeal body, Orz is blind, it can't see or touch this world. Via DF it can however *smell* the conciousness of beings on this side, and that's what happened with the Androsynth - the Orz creature *smelled* them, and within DF points could convert their organic matter into the fish-creatures, in order to interact with our universe.

All this requires a certain amount of mysticism in the form of accepting (for the purposes of the game universe) mind-body dualism. I don't see this as a problem, though, since the Pkunk are far more mystic than that.

Before posting my thoughts on the Orz, I'd like to state a few things up front for the sake of clarity. I have always tried to refer to the Orz in the singular. This has been very difficult to do because the Orz appear to be separate beings. But as we all know, Fred and Paul have stated that this is not so:

<Fwiffo> In regards to the Androsynth: They were snagged by the entity who/which projected its fingers into our dimension (which looked to us as the Orz.)

So the Orz is from another dimension and it is a singular entity. Done and done.

And now I may begin. What follows is but a part of my take on the Orz.

I've been thinking a lot about the unorthodox nature of the Orz language that causes the translator such problems. I was reading a transcript of the Orz conversations and something about them suddenly hit me. They seem to have a tendency to communicate in a stream-of-consciousness fashion. There will be almost random insertions of related thoughts that go unanswered because the Orz just keeps talking. An example:

Oh, the *alliance party* *campers* are in the *now space*. It is *happy spices*. Why are you there? Of course because also the Orz are in the *now space*. So I am waiting for you to *spit*. It is a pleasure

See how it asks a question and then answers it right after? Why would it say that out loud and then not wait for a response? It just seems to be something that popped into the Orz's mind and then it immediately answers its own question. It's as though it's just speaking its thoughts directly. Another example:

Androsynth are not here. Orz are here. You are not the same too much like Androsynth. You are *happy campers*. Do you want to see our surprising toys*? No!! Do Not!! Androsynth are so silly. We do not *tell stories* a lot about them. No more Androsynth stories.

What sticks out to me here is the "surprising toys" comment. Why is it there? Is it something the Orz said to the Androsynth, or vice versa? Or perhaps it's a hypothetical question to the Captain that it (for some reason) answers? Or did the Androsynth incident simply remind it of a related thought or memory that it threw in there for no particular reason? Any one of those answers supports my assertion. Another quote:

We are not trusting. We like to be *together*. Do you want to be *together* with us?
Always the other *sad animals* go away, but first we have lots of fun. Too many fun is not enough!! Do you agree? I think you *smell* like you do. This is the story about trusting. It is sad and makes many Orz *dissolve* or burst into several. Why is it that you are trusting? What a funny question. I am tired.

Again, there is a pattern of asking a question and not even waiting for (or even expecting) a response. It just keeps going, almost on a kind of ramble ("I am tired.").

Ok, I believe I've supported that point well enough for some serious discussion. There are more examples, but I'll spare everyone. =)

The question that came to my mind in response to this was "Why does the Orz communicate like that?" And here is what I came up with:

The Orz communications are its internal thought process. The reason why their "language" is so unorthodox is that it's not really a language in that it isn't designed to be communicated to other beings. The Orz just barrages the translator with information without regards to its (The Orz's) own shifting contexts, knowledge, and assumptions. The computer is used to interpreting language, which has a specific structure designed to avoid such ambiguities in order to communicate in as clear a way as possible. This structure seems to be absent (for the most part) in the Orz communications, so the computer has to do its best to make sense of things.

This would also explain why all of the verbs in Orz communications are in the present tense. It is shown that the Orz have a concept of time. They say things like "Six or nine *pieces* ago..." and such. And yet all of the verbs are in the present tense. Why? Although the Orz can obviously remember and think about things that have happened in the past, it does this thinking and remembering in the present so that's how it is communicated. It's as though the Orz is replaying the memories in its mind and so communicating as though these things are happening in the present.

Well this would naturally bring about questions relating to how the Orz communicate with beings in its native dimension. My answer to such questions is that either those other beings share similar knowledge and assumptions and can just intuitively pick up the contexts of the information communicated or that there simply are no other beings in the Orz's native dimension it can communicate with. Either such beings do not have the capacity to communicate with the Orz or simply do not exist.

I have a tendency to lean more towards the latter. I believe the Orz is the only being to exist in its dimension. I believe this because the Orz doesn't seem to pick up on the concept that other beings may have different views and opinions of things than it does. It assumes that you will want a *party* and that you want to be *connected* in order for them to share other *levels* with you because that's how it views things. Such a being my have some trouble picking up on the nuance that there are other ways of thinking, which may be why the Orz react with such violent frustration whenever something happens contrary to what they think should happen. After all, what other point of view is there? There is also a statement that would tend to support that the Orz are used to existing alone:

Orz cannot be strange. Orz is Orz. Strange is other thing.

This shows a tendency to view reality as being only one of two things: Orz and everything else. And as everything else, by definition, isn't Orz, everything else is strange. This is further supported by the fact that the Orz doesn't seem to differentiate between other beings beyond its ability to tell individuals or certain groups from one another. For example, consider the Orz's take on the Androsynth and humans from one of my previous quotes:

You are not the same too much like Androsynth. You are *happy campers*.

Uh... humans aren't very similar to the Androsynth? Genetically, they are nigh identical but the Orz either doesn't recognize that or doesn't view it as being important. The Orz does differentiate between humans and Androsynth, but this differentiation is based on the attitude of the Captain towards the Orz as compared to the attitude of the Androsynth in general towards it. It seems to ignore or to be unaware of the physical similarities between Androsynth and humans.

Alright, to sum up: the Orz language causes so many problems because it is not a "language" so much as the direct inner ramblings of the Orz entity. This method of communication is the result of the Orz being the only entity able to communicate in its native dimension, or perhaps of the Orz being the only being in its native dimension. The latter would tend to be supported by the Orz's inability to understand why other things have a different point of view, and also its tendency to view all things in existence as ultimately being either Orz or not Orz. An example of the Orz's inexperience in classification is demonstrated by the Androsynth/human example.

So that's one part of my take on the Orz. Comments are welcome. =)

Alternatively, it would not be unreasonable to assume that creatures that have evolved in a similar environment to the Orz would have similar concepts, and therefore understand what the Orz is talking about.


This sounds a lot like the Orz is trying to assimilate you, because it has done so in the past, and the people it assimilated are happy as part of the Orz. This would explain the Arilou's concern about the Orz. In the case of the Androsynth, it seems that the Orz was frustrated at the Androsynth's resistance to something that, from an Orz point of view, is for their own good. Of course, one could argue that the Orz is not trying to assimilate others into itself; the fact that the Orz refers to the Taalo as a separate entity suggests that they retain this status despite having left TrueSpace.

Very interesting theories regarding the Orz! I particularly like the idea of their language being strings of thought picked up by your translatin computer.

I was wondering... this might be a bit strange for this discussion, but how do you people think that the Androsynth vanished? Like, I know the theories of why they vanished, but I want to hear peoples' takes on how it happened. In what manner did the Androsynth die, or get assimilated, or vanish? The lack of bodies on their homeworld seems to be evidence pointing to a method other than killing.

What do you guys think?

As I said before, I think the Orz creature slid to truespace on their planet, and after a bit of haunting/mindreading decided that it wanted to come here. Then it started to disassemble the Androsynth and creating the Orz fishies, and as this spread more and more, the Androsynth got desperate and did what humans would do in their place - nuked their world from orbit in hopes of killing off the Orz. Obviously, they didn't succeed.

Another variation is that the fishies didn't appear right away, that the Androsynth were nuking the poltergeist-like Orz who kept snatching their people away into *below*, and doing the conversion from androsynth to fish-creature there.

While we can be sure of the nuking itself because of the planet lander report ("It looks like someone blasted everything with nuclear bazookas"), that same report specifically states that there were NO signs of orbital bombardment. Such nuking would have had to be done in the confines of the surface.

He does say "nuclear bazookas" but I don't think that necessarily means it was a nuclear attack.  I think he was just exaggerating to describe the amount of destruction.  He was clearly a little rattled by the whole experience.

Nuclear bazookas? that reminds me of another thread in this forum where someone mentioned a tribute to the book "Starship Troopers". Let's say the Orz flooded the planet, like the Bugs. The Androsynth used "nuclear bazookas". To tell you the truth, I guess that the fact there were no bodies left wasn't really thought of by TFB! I remember reading somewhere that they said they WANTED to make the Orz mysterious and mostly horrific! (I remember saying to myself when reading that, "damn, you did a fine job! everytime I talked to the Orz I was a bit frightened!")

One thing though is their "suits" - if you'd notice, I don't recall any other race who use "spacesuits" inside their vessles! I guess it might mean that they can't exist in our dimension unless they use some special protection. Commander Hayes says something about "weird creatures in robotic suits" when you ally with them. I guess they don't exactly breath air.. though that would support them looking like fish!  ;D

Ah, let's face it; we're debating so deep we've long passed the true reason for all of this (which was probably Paul and Fred's morning cereal ;))

I keep getting the impression that Orz is like Lennie from Steinbeck's Of Mice and Men and that the Arilou are like George:

"Orz, you keep petting the Androsynth too hard.  They'll die if you keep them in your dimensional pockets."  
"Stop Chasing the Taalo; they don't like it."
"One day, Orz, we'll have a Nngn farm.  Yeah, you can pet the Nngn."
-Fictional Arliou/George quotes

You're absolutely right. What I meant was that it can be reasonably argued that nukes were used. Sorry about that. =)

That's an interesting idea, Culture20...

it seems interesting enough to perhaps be true.

Also, regarding hte space suits:

The Orz you talk to are not in suits; just the ones on the Earth Station.  I think it's because they require an exotic environment to breathe.

My theory is maybe they are just pissed because arilou can *jump in front* fast as moving through *pretty-space* like the orz only the arilou can move (or jump.. jump in front) fast in *heavyspace* as well.. well it is the arilou's skiff special secondary after all.. and the orz wanna *smell* this technologie

That could be quite deadly.. Orz Marines *jumping in front* of everyone, teleporting right into your ship!

... and left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. Interesting. A cool idea, but I don't think it is plausible - not without a lot more corroborating evidence.

I think *jumping in front* refers to more than just one thing. The fact that the Arilou can literally appear in front of them from somewhere else is definitely one. But it's more than that. Check out this line from the Fred/Paul chat:

<Mephisto_> Fwiffo: What exactly did the Arilou *quickbabies* do to piss off the Orz so much?
<Fwiffo> The Arilou always *jumped in front*, which was both a physical taunt as well as a political one.  They got to the humans first.

So the Arilou *jumping in front* means that they were one step ahead of the Orz in getting here and that really makes them mad.

Wchich once again raises the question : Why are the Humans important at all?

You'd think that in an infinite universe, especially the kind of multidimensional one that both Orz and Arilou seem to inhabit, the're'd be more than one race that could fulfill whatever it is that they need us for... I mean, if the Arilou really desperatly need us for some sort of future use, wouldn't it have made sense for them to have a few backups? Races far from here that they've done the same "thing" to as to us. So if we actually manage to get ourselves extinct, they'd have a few others to fall back on.. (Although I don't suppose this applies to the orz, they only just got here and wouldn't have any backups. But if they only just got here, and didn't know about the human race, how can they be annoyed with the Arilou for getting to us first?)

You know, it strikes me that this whole time we have assumed that the Arilou originated in TrueSpace.  This preconception probably comes in part from SC3.  But, ignoring SC3, how do we know that they came from TrueSpace?

The Orz say the Arilou are from *above*; not that they are from *heavy space* and live *above*.  Perhaps the Arilou are the same type of being the Orz are, i.e. one consciousness projecting may ways.  The main difference is that Arilou is older than Orz!

Maybe the Arilou is/are even Orz's parent!  It would explain a whole lot:

1) The Orz don't like the Arilou preventing it from doing things -- just like a child who doesn't understand why daddy won't let him play in the street or pet a stray dog.

2) The Arilou, being older and more experienced, know how to pop in and out of Truespace easily.  That explains why their ships can teleport.  The Orz, being younger, don't know how.

3) The Arilou know how to communicate with TrueSpace beings because they are old enough to speak properly.  The Orz, on the other hand, make baby talk!

4) The Arilou, being parents or at least parentlike, view humans as their adopted children or pets for some reason.  Why that is I'm not sure.

Any thoughts on this idea?

I suppose it all depends on how you interpret their comment

"This is our homeworld, Falayalaralfali, nestled safe in this TrueSpace eddy."

I mean it does seem to point to that the are from Truespace. On the other hand, if that is the case, why bother going through Quasispace at all? Maybe their homeworld is very far away from where we are, OR if it is a strange dyy os some sort, maybe the only way to get to Falayalaralfali is through Quasispace, their whole system might be a sort of bubble of Truespace inside Quasispace....

Another possibility is that they evolved in the "same" truespace as us, but they somehow moved their world, or entire system through quasispace into wherever it is now. How or why they would move it, I haven't the faintest clue...

I do like the idea about the Orz and the Arilou though. If we assume that the Arilou come from Quasispace, or maybe just that they've been there so long their perceptions have changed, they'd have pretty much the same starting point as the Orz. but the Arilou have been visiting Truespace so much longer that they understand it better than the Orz. It's even possible, like you said, that the Arilou somehow made the Orz. They might be disappointed i them, or just parenting them until they feel they are ready. That fits in quite well with Matticus Steinbeck idea: The Orz mean well but just don't quite understand yet, and the Arilou keep them in check

Maybe the simple reason that the Arilou view us as adopted children is that their nostalgic? If they started out here, maybe they sometimes long for "the good old times before we started mucking about in quasispace and catching Nggn", so they see us as a younger version of themselves?

I think there's more to it than just nostalgia. Some quotes:

To call our interaction with your kind an experiment would be much too simple and impersonal. Let us just say that we have a vested interest in your... development. You are one of our... extended family, just as other sentients in other dimensions have their extended families.
Another relevent quote:

We seek not to invade, but to pervade. There is a difference.
My guess is that humans are the only compatible species in this part of the galaxy (or who knows, maybe in this whole dimension) who would allow for this Arilou "pervasion" or whatever it is.

So they don't look at us as an experiment, more like family? And they are interested in watching us develop? I suppose you could view it a bit like the Yehat-Shofixti connection then, with us as the Shofixti. But the Shofixti were uplifted, if I remember correctly, either to help in the war, or because the Yehat saw much of themselves in them... I think there might be two versions of that story? Anyway, that probably doesn't bode good for us, unless it's just because they see us as something very close to what they once were, a strong protective family feeling, a kind of nostalgia fopr older simpler times.

In regard to the invade/pervade comment, it might not be that important. It could be just like the Kzer-Za saying But they do not wish to enslave us as such, merely protect us from ourselves and other dangers, whilst protecting themselves. What do they mean anyway, pervade? It sounds as if they cut off their connection with us, they might not make it...

Of course,both these comments might be something they say to a lot of different species that we don't know of...

In accordance to the importance of the human race, I assume it's evident... Star Control I and II do something that other games seem to ignore.  Instead of making the human race the central protagonists, or the strongest central force in the game, the humans are not perfect in the Star Control series, exmplified by the Cruiser... hehe.  They are us, of course, and while the humans in the series are not the most important, it adds to the game IMHO.  It gives you the feeling that earthlings are not the central of the universe, that there's so much more out there...  and that while we are important, there is so much more that is vast and mysterious out there.

My answer to your question about how the Orz are jealous that the Arilou got to the humans first (as described by Mr. Fred Ford) and how they even know about us is simple: The Androsynth.  Either that or the Orz look as highly upon the earthlings as the Arilou do... although they don't express it, since they're just looking for someone to *dance* with... I mean, who isn't?  While their nature is unknown, the obvious tension between Orz and Arilou is evident, especially when they "fight" and bicker over the fate of humans, something both may want to control or *play* with... hehe.

But that's my point exactly. The Humans aren't in any way special in the game. we're not the fastest, the strongest, the wisest, the most advanced,or anything like that. In fact, as a race we're pretty mediocre (and considering that we are the only race ever to produce better versions of ourselves, and then alienating them we could be called outright dumb). But here are two races, one obviously quite advanced, knowledgeable, and residing in another dimension, the other completely weird but still impressive, and they are both extremely obsessed with the humans!

Why, we're nothing special in the universe, which is good. then why are we special to them? why have we got something that noone else has? If we in all other ways are mediocre, what's this one important feature about us that attracts so much attention from the Arilou? And why has no other race got it?

Since when are the Orz obsessed with humans?

Sure, they like *alliance parties* and other fun stuff but they never seem to care which species.  You're just the first ones who actually wanted to ally with them.

So there is no grand coincidence, because the Orz aren't fixated on humans.  I mean, come on, the Orz talk about the Ta'alo more then they takl about humans!

Nothing in the Orz dialouge indicates that they find humans special in any way.  Now, if someone produces some dialouge AND makes a convincing argument that it shows the Orz like humans for some reason other than the *alliance party*, I will humbly stand corrected.  But I don't think there is any.

EDIT: As far as the Arilou, we've beat to death why they might be interested in us.  And who knows, maybe there are other races in other parts of the galaxy they are interested in.

I also love the fact that humans are not the center of the universe in the SC series... it's one of the things that makes it endearing to me.

Anyhow, the fascination with human beings could have something to do with the potential of the human race. There's nothing special about human beings that's evident right now, sure, but that doesn't mean there won't someday be.

Take a look at the progression of human beings in the SC series. According to the manual we get so close to nuclear war that it unites us into destroying most weapons and hiding the rest in the peace vaults. We unify, start exploring space, and even make a few outposts and stations within the solar system. There's the whole Androsynth debacle, and they are superior to human beings except that they cannot reproduce naturally. But what's to say that someday human beings won't be as advanced as they are?

Humans played a relatively minor role in the first war. Sure, they churned out cruisers and support vessels and participated wherever they could, but that's really just grunt work. After the war humans were slave shielded and if it weren't for the colony at Vela that would have been the end of it.

One could say humans got lucky what with finding that Precursor factory there. But it was more than just luck... the colonists figured out how to use the factory. And then the Captain started his journey, etc etc.

But look at the results of these events... in Star Control 2, humans come to the forefront of things. It's a human (albeit in a Precursor vessel) that resurrects the Alliance from its ashes and gathers the necessary resources to take out the Sa-Matra while everyone else does the grunt work. It's a complete reversal.

And all of this happens in the span of about 150 years.

I think what impresses the Arilou about humans is our potential. Perhaps the Arilou (and maybe the Orz as well) have some kind of insight that beings of our native dimension do not. They could see something truly special within humanity, something that's only a glimmer now but could one day grow into a shining light.

Of course, all of this is just conjecture by yours truly. But it's still worth thinking about, don't you agree?

ErekLich:

I personally think you're right about the Orz. But the fact remains that they are very interested in this dimension, if not human beings. But luckily that doesn't change any of the stuff I just typed about the Arilou. =)

Ok, obsessed is actually too strong a word to use for the Orz. I was was basing it on the quote

" <Mephisto_> Fwiffo: What exactly did the Arilou *quickbabies* do to piss off the Orz so much?
<Fwiffo> The Arilou always *jumped in front*, which was both a physical taunt as well as a political one.  They got to the humans first."

If the Orz don't particulary care for us, they shouldn't be annoyed that the Arilou got to the humans first. This can't be quoted from the game, seeing as they don't seem to say anything significant about us there, or care very much unless one mentions the androsynth.

But still it being annoyed about the Arilou got to us first indicates that the Orz really wanted to get to us first as well. So there must be some sort of interest?

another interesting thing is that they are both interested in us. but for the same reasons, or completely different ones?

Here's my new take on it:

Basically, both the Arilou and the Orz want control of the humans for one reason or another.  The Orz don't like being asked about the Androsynth.  Why is that, do you think?  Because the Orz were tricked into thinking that the Androsynth were human!  The Orz thought that the Androsynth were humans, and thus assimilated them, killed them, ate them, whatever.  But, after this process, they learned that the Androsynth weren't the humans, even though they were almost exactly the same.  They *smelled* the same as humans, but there was one main distinction: their history/future.  You see, the Orz and the Arilou have been fighting a long war, with the Arilou trying to prevent the Orz from entering TrueSpace.  When the Orz managed to put it's *fingers* into TrueSpace, it immediately *smelled* humans.  The humans it *smelled,* however, were the Androsynth.

Now, let's back up a second... why were the Orz and the Arilou so obsessed with the humans?  I have two theories.  The first is that the humans would, in some way, play a major role in the Orz - Arilou war.  This would most likely be a portion of the true Star Control 3, either as being mentioned, or what actually happens during it.  My second theory though, is that the humans are the Arilou.  This, of course, has been said before.  The Arilou wish to protect the humans because they are them, only in the past.  The Arilou have already mentioned how they are in many places and *times* at once, so it makes sense that the Orz could have this ability too.

Well, I would say more, but I have to go now.

I like the idea of the Orz mistaking the Androsynth for Humans. However, if this is true, then why don't they attempt to do the same to us as they did to them (assuming they did it). I mean they did whatever it was to the whole Androsynth nation (which I seem to recall having a sphere of influence of their own?) without too much trouble. However, the Humans only have a puny starbase, a slave shielded planet and one battlegroup of ships at hand. Admittedly ones flagship is stronger than the Orz, but fighting didn't seem to help the Synths squat. they just disappeared. So wy wouldn't the Orz assimilate us immediately?

The timetravelidea always gives me a headache, cuz it makes for such a problematic plot : ) either neither side can change whatever happened in the past, seeing as it's already happened in their future OR they did change it in the past and that's why the future looks like it does. They always went back, so they have to do it again. either way, the outcome in the future will be the same...

--------

On the other hand, both races do mention not viewing time like we do, so maybe it's more probable than I thought from the beginning?

Yeah, I was going to mention exactly why the Orz thinks that the humans are different form the Androsynth, but I ran out of time.  Basically, the Orz can't see other beings, only *smell* them.  Either this *smell* change wasn't present in the Androsynth, or it required constant revision, and the humans were due for a checkup when the Androsynth were created.  Either that, or after being tricked to think the Androsynth were humans, the Orz is / are now more cautious, and want to find out more about the humans before deciding that they really are humans.  (Damn, it feels weird to refer to the humans as "they.")

Also, on the topic of time travel, neither the Orz nor the Arilou can do anything about the future, because they're too evenly matched.  That's why the Arilou are recruiting the humans, and the Orz are trying to stop them.  And then, once the goal is accomplished, the universe (including seperate dimensions, thus the prefix "uni," meaning "one.") will collapse in on itself and destroy everything, bringing a nice, un-sequalable ending.

I don't know...  The Orz really do strike me as the "Lennie" type, as we've talked about... they don't really seem to have goals.  I like the idea of the Arilou wanting us for some greater purpose, but again: why humans?

Ah, but the Orz do have at least one goal: having fun. They're always saying things like "too many fun is never enough!!" and such.

I think the reason the Arilou and the Orz are interested in the humans are for different reasons.

It is evident that the Orz did something to the androsynth, which I think had something to do with assimilating, or *dissolving* them. The Orz also seem to want to assimilate you, also.

Next you must *dissolve* and *become* the second time. Orz will help you *dissolving*.

They couldn't find or exist in true space until they found the androsynth, so perhaps whatever they did to the androsynth empowered them do do something they normally could not?


On the otherhand, the Arilou are interested in humans I think because of thier great potential. I can't remember if this was said in Sc2 or Sc3 (I know Sc3 is irrelovent to anything, but I can't remember which one it's in, or both, sorry for my vaugeness), but someone mentions that humans are one of the few races that uplifted themselves into space. The sofixti were uplifted by the yehat, the urquan were nurtured by the miliue, the Mrrnmrrhm (sp?) were created by the precursurs and were no doubt given star-faring technology, and so on. This shows great potential in the human race, not to even mention the fact your commander leads the war.

I basically agree with the premise that the Orz could not take form in this dimension had it not been for the Androsynth. Otherwise there would be no reason for the Orz to stay in its own dimension, which we are repeatedly told isn't nearly as fun or cool to it as TrueSpace is. In fact, it's implied that everywhere else is very *frumple* to the Orz. And yet all we get are its *fingers*... what's stopping it?

Night_rouge:

It's in SC3.  Zor-Ath (Ur-Quan Lord #3) talks about how the Humans and the Ur-Quan are among the few speices to uplift themselves into space.

Maybe that is the Arilou's interest in us? To stop the Orz. They might not gove a rats ass about us otherwise, but for some reason we are the most likely tobring the Orz into this dimension, due to some inherent trait we have (Much like the Ur-quan were the likeliest to destroy the sentient Milieu because they were least resistant to mindcontrol. The others races fell under the Dnyarri as well, but they much preferred Quan's cause they were the easiest.)

If they percieve time differently, then maybe they know that one of the few way for the Orz to get in is through us. Possibly because of our tendencies to experiment with anything, regardless of consequences. Maybe they just don't like the idea of having the Orz in the neighbourhood, considering them slum from *below*, or they might be worried about what stupid "Lenny" could actually do here...

Btw. if the androsynth smelled differently cuz they hadn't had their last checkup, doesn't that indicate that the Arilou are very busy littel buggers? I mean, tin that case they'd have to change the *smell* of humanity on a constant basis, and if they missed even one... Bye bye hunams!

I think the *smell* thing is more something that we all have, but which becomes stronger with knowledge of certain things.

Okay, though this has little relevance to the actual discussion let's clear this up, shall we?

Take another look at my previous post. I did not say, state, imply, hint, suggest or, indeed, infer that you are mad. K? What I was saying is that making my previous post was an act of madness on my part because by doing so I risked getting into a debate with you, from which we can deduce that I obviously think that you're a good debater. Thus, what you seem to have taken offense at seems to be classifiable as  'compliment'.

Unless that comment of yours was sophisticated sarcasm that went completely over my head, of course.


Okay, now you're finding things from my posts that I never put there.


But to keep this post from becoming completely irrelevant, I find it possible that translated Orzspeech only has the present tense not because untranslated Orzese also has only one tense, but because of the strangeness and unorthodoxiness (is that a word?) of the language. Example: My native language, Finnish, has no future tense whatsoever. Instead, we use the present one, and get by well with everyone figuring things out from context. However, were a foreigner presented with a stream of Finnish babble ... *is chased off the public computer he's using*

Damn. Let me get back to you on that.

Your right, sorry about that.

Even so, the humans do have a great potential, though they are not physically strong like the Urquan, or as wise as the Chenjesu, or anything like that. Perhaps the Arilou sees this as the possibility that we might someday ascend to where they are, much like a parent will raise a child. The arilou do mention that they look upon us in a paternal kind of way. Seeing as we are close physically to the Arilou, they see the potential in humans.
Then again, maybe not, because they show little interest in the Androsynth and the Syreen, and both of those races are also very close physically, so it can't have anything to do with appearance.
I don't know, I confused myself. Maybe they're just perverts like Admiral ZEX or something.
Anyone else have thoughts on this? Why do the Arilou take interest in humans?

"You drew pictures of us on your cave walls..."
then came the X-Files...
A little narcissism and arrogance, anyone? I mean, really look how utterly condescending they are.
That's the cheap answer.

I don't know.

They never seem to act like its about them.  Keep in mind that this isn't one Arilou and one human, its the entire speices.

They seem to have a paternal interest, not a self-indulgent one.

Well, maybe the voice actor was just grating. "Good-bye my child" yecch. Anyway, I don't believe this answer. I just felt like saying they are here because of the X-files, because of the irony.

From the SC2 manual:
Like Earthlings, the Yehat entered space without the assistance of a more
advanced race.  It is not surprising that they grant Earthlings such high
honor and status for the same achievement.

Although the Humans did<typo>n't</typo> uplift themselves to Space, maybe they were lifted from the Stone Age by the Arilou...

Um, Culture20?  Aren't you contradicting yourself there?

Or did you mean to say "Althouth the Humans did uplift themselves"?

In any case, You are correct that it is found in SC2 as well.  I forgot that it's in the manual, I was just thinking about the game...

As far as the Arilou uplifting us from the Stone Age, that's an interesting idea.  Anyone have any evidence, for or against?

Since i got this game as a kid i wondered what the 'above/below' refrence is , i do no think they are in refrence to a place but a time. i think the Orz are what the Arilou were, the Arilou from a previous time since its pretty obvious they do not live in our 'time' so this could be quite possible.

Now THAT's an intriguing thought...suppose the Orz interacted with the humans in what would have been our stone age, and taking on human characteristics due to some symbiotic relationship with us, and eventually becoming the Arilou.

Of course, that poses the question of why exactly the Arilou tell you not to trust the Orz...

The Arilou imply this, but do not state it directly.

You might even say we knew the first human

You have painted our pictures on cave walls, erected standing stones and pyramids for us.

What's interesting is that the only other race they mention in relation to them is the Orz, and they clearly don't like them. They don't give squat about other races, not even the Androsynth. The Orz also mentioned we were different than the androsynth, and considering we're genetically and precisely the same, there must be a greater difference. Why would the Arilou invest into the humans so much, since the beginning of our history?

Actually, we're NOT the same.  They're sterile, and we're not.  That might seem like nitpicking, but in the grand scheme of things, it makes a HUGE difference, even if the dna strand is almost identical.  It makes us into a viable species, and keeps the Androsynth from being such.

Perhaps the Arilou/Orz are part of the whole ancient Egyptian Horus/Set war.  Arilou could be Horus, Orz could be Set.

Gah!  Stargate is bleeding over into my Star Control!  (Er, I mean Ur-Quan Masters...)

Seriously, though, I don't know that the Arilou would pose as gods.  They would be advanced, certainly, and powerful, but they don't lie, at least not directly.

Just some observations:
If we in 3 dim. view the "unfolding" of 4 dim, like a series of projections, or 'time', then any n-level being should see time as the "unfolding" of n+1 dim., with similar uncertainties. (I guess.) If appears that to us, in 3 are unable to separate duality(n-1) from our thought, or communication. So I think, maybe Orz can only reduce it's thought or comm. to (n-1) too.
I think this corelates with some of the further above.
For those who read flatland, seeing a dim. below is not, in fact, like seeing it's 'future/past/present' but more like seeing it's inside and outside at the same time. If each lower dim. is projected from the one 'outside' of it, then time is an illusion from which no being escapes. The translator is 'translating consciousness. ' from our point of view(as someone mentioned).
I think many of the theories above are fascinating and I apologize if I repeated someone's ideas.

No, they wouldn't lie, but I'll bet you that they WOULD come down to earth, do something amazing in the presence of humans who could never understand it, then fly back up into space and watch our reaction like we were little kids.  ("Oh, look!  They think we're gods!  How adorable!")

I assume because they were a bit less carefull with how they treated other life forms earlier in theyre evolution.. hense the poor cloneboys.

True.  But the Arilou think so highly of themselves, you'd think they'd be a little less harsh with the Orz if the Orz were...er...also...themselves.

It's not possible since the Orz couldn't have *smelled* our *level* until the Androsynth started messing with Dimensional Fatigue.

Also, when the Arilou realized they have found our *level* they made sure the Orz can't *smell* us.

Hence Arilou were here before the Orz.

Oh My God!!  It's the thread that won't die!!

;D

Back to the debate

-Will

Here's a question I've beeen wondering about on the Arilou-Orz theme.. The Arilou mention that they wont help you, because in the last war so many of them were forcibly "discorporated" or some such. The Orz tell us they're just "fingers" and not like us.

So, given that you can blow both kinds up, what kind of bodies do they leave? I mean, I assume the Arilou actually have regualr bodies, due to the fact that they seem individual and "real" so to speak. Btu what happens to a "finger" when it dies? Does it dissolve and fade away? Or does it leave a body behind to be examined? and ifso, what could be leanred from this? If the body is real and physical, it must have some sort of contact with the Orz home, otherwise, it wouldn't be able to move it's fingers. When the body dies, is the contact svered? Or what?

I think you are treating the word "fingers" too verbally. Let's use the Star-Trek Borg analogy - each ship is a part of a huge collective. That'd make sense - the Orz's "fingers" are simply ships sent through the portal to our dimesion. That's the only reason they're called "fingers" - because it's not the whole race, just an expedition, so to speak.
I don't say the Orz have a collective mind, but perhaps an overlord..

Possibly :)

I have to say, the idea that the Orz are a drone race, with a collective conciousness is a lot more belivable to me than the idea that the Orz is an entity, that somehow projects itself into our entity. But if they are all indeed separate creatures, with the same large all enspanning mind then how do they look in their dimension? The same as here? Different? If they look the same, what's with the poltergesit stuff, and if they dont look the same and are simply a race in another dimension, then how did they build their current bodies?

Questions I fear will never be answered :)

Yeah, I would also think that, however TFB has explicity said that the Orz is a projection of a singular entity.  Here's a link to the famous chat (forgive me if this has already been posted, but I didn't see it):

http://www.classicgaming.com/starcontrol/history/files/scchatlog.txt

This is a great topic BTW; I've read through every post over the past few days.

I'll add one hypothesis that I haven't seen anybody mention:  What if the Taalo were the "ghosts" that the Androsynth were researching?  While the Taalo *slid* out of Truespace, perhaps some vestigal remnants of themselves was left on their world as an imprint and manifests as apparitions; or, perhaps *pretty space* in this case is a parallel dimension where they would still present on their homeworld in some sense, but invisible to creatures in this dimension (this doesn't match with the little we know about *pretty space* though).

I don't really believe that the ghosts are the Taalo, as the poltergeists appear to be either the "slashers" or the Orz, and clearly the Taalo wouldn't be either the "slashers" or the Orz.  I did think the idea was interesting though.

I agree that it is more believable but that's why the idea doesn't appeal to me as much. I mean, the Orz are from another dimension. As far as story goes, that leaves a lot of room for creativity. You don't have to approach their development with the same limitations that you would with races native to our dimension. I'd hate to see that kind of potential go untapped.

But that's just my opinion.

That's a creative name you got there  ;)

Yeah, I know the way it is and has been stated, I'm just saying that's what I'd personally prefer, not that it has any bearing whatsoever on what really is...

Good point Matticus, beings from another dimension should be very different. I suppsoe I just can't cope with the unknown. Well, maybe an Orz *finger* will visit me one day and explain...

-------EDIT

Forgot to answer the thing about Taalo ghosts.. It's a neat idea, it could well be that seeing some sort of energy remnant of the Taalo is what got the Synths started on researching IDF. ANd then the slashers came

Kizor - I just want to clarify that I was joking.  Yes, that was a bit of sarcasm, but I took no offense.  It's near impossible to convey here that I'm kidding around without me saying it explicitly.  When I said I smiled when I saw that people had taken the time to read through all these posts, I meant it.  I know you were complimenting me.  If you actually took the time to read through all these debates, that is a great compliment to every one who has contributed.
  The reason I said "But I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong (yes, Kizor, it's possible)", is that good debater or not, I have been convinced that other's ideas had more merit than mine.  So, although I was not offended by you saying it was madness to argue with me, I was concerned that you would think it futile to try.  It was just my sarcastic way of saying, "Don't give up.  I'll listen."

Matticus - I'm glad to see you posted your thoughts.

Concerning the humans not being the center of everything because the cruiser is a ship with limitations, and in SC1 they were low on the list, let's not delude ourselves that this continues on into SC2.  Yes, the Alliance lost.  Yes, the humans on Earth were slave-shielded.  But a human, you as captain, saved EVERYONE from total annihilation at the hands of the Kohr-Ah.  Yes, you could not have done it alone, single-handedly.  So many contributed to the cause through ships, crew, technology and information, but in the end, you as a human, along with the incredible ship you commanded were the focal point through which final victory was realized.  Aside from the commander and crew on the starbase and the people of Vela, humanity as a whole may have played a small role in contribution, but it was a human that blew up his treasured ship to make the total difference.  If that doesn't make humans important in the SC universe, then what does?
  I don't believe the Orz are interested in humans alone.  They not only mention that the are interested in the Taalo, but I recall they also approached the VUX, although they ended up *dancing* because the VUX constantly asked about the Androsynth.  The Orz are interested in our dimension and its species as a whole.  Why specifically?  I don't know and neither does any one else here.  We can all just speculate.  The Arilou on the other hand, are interested in humans specifically ... almost blindly.  They really don't seem to care about any of the other local species (other than rescuing the Dnyarii).  Whether they care about other species in other places ... again, pure speculation.  (Unless you count the Nggn)  :P

  Aside from the recent connection made with Steinbeck's Of Mice and Men, which I really only find sort of humorous to contemplate (a bunch of Space-Lennys ... LOOK-OUT Space-rabbits!), I feel that this thread may be exhausting itself in fresh ideas.  I see the same sort of posts showing up, asking the same questions, trying to squeeze information out of the same text, with little more than pure speculation.  Even some of the speculation is starting to sound repetitive.

I think wminsing may be right.  Even I'm overwhelmed at the size of this thread.

-PsiPhi

But it's a nice homely thread... i like it :) And in todays harsh and modern world, it's nice to know that some things are immortal.

So how about it, what do you think of them Orz guys huh?

I thought I would add my own ideas into the fray:



Others have explained this fairly well -- Arilou and Orz are each from different dimensions, but the Arilous are from a dimension more like our own, whereas the Orz dimension would be more energy/psonic based as opposed to a physics-based one.  

In the Arilou dimension your ship can still fly,  your bodies are still intact, and the Arilou also exist.  

Since the Orz say Hyperspace is *heavy* it would lead me to believe that the *below* is more energy as opposed to matter.



The Arilou are basically saying that there are forces and creatures that exist that either we, as humans, naturally cannot sense, or from which the Arilou have hid us.  I would think the *Nggn* are the former; we cannot sense the *Nngn* and do not have the ability to "catch" them by our physical means.

The Arilou alluded to this many times, saying that "[we] don't want to be seen" and the like, and the Melnorme also allude to this by mentioning Keel-Vereenzy vessels or something similar.  The *Nggn* are no different.



Off-hand?  Sorry! :D  Others have done this, though -- kudos to all of you. ;)



The Orz are most likely a psychic being from another dimension.  Everything the Orz says alludes to a single identity, and the Arilou also support that idea.  

The Androsynth were "pulled" into the psychic dimension once they opened a portal into their dimension through IDF practices.

The Androsynth were all probably pulled because they were clones.  The humans could not be seen because Androsynth and Humans do not have the same genetic make-up; all Androsynth do, however.  It wouldn't be too hard to pull them all in once one was discovered.

The Human who was "seen" in Vulpeculae suffered from wounds all over his body that became increasingly worse.  He was "seen" but all of humanity was not -- the genetic construct is different.

Either the attack is psychic -- creating some sort of horrendous "placebo-effect-gone-wrong" or it is from an invisible, metaphysical Orz assailer.  <shrug>

To relate to SC3: the same happened to the Supox; all of the colony Supox were taken by the Orz, but the Arilou clearly tell you that all other Supox -- in the Lyrae stars -- are fine.  This shows that the Androsynth were clearly a special case and why NONE exist.  Even some Shofixti survived in extreme cases, like Tanaka, when thought extinct.  There are no reported Androsynth.



Most likely that the Taalo's inherent psonic-resistance abilities -- that made them the target of the Dynarri since the Taalo could not be controlled -- are doing the similar to the Orz, either because they are alive and countering the Orz in psychic *below* or through vicarious means such as the Taalo Shield interfering with the Orz IDF portal(s) into *below.*  Take your pick.



The Arilou probably prevented the Orz from entering Hyperspace, as well as from recognizing and taking *campers.*  The Androsynth problem could not be avoided as they were a clone race without reproductive abilities; hence, no genetic diversity.



Ghosts and poltergeists have to do with energy -- includiong psonic energy -- which the Orz and Arilou possess.  The Pkunk do have psychic abilities, but theirs is more of a clairvoyance as opposed to the former species' control or dominance.

The rest I explained above.

---

Those are just my ideas!  Take care!

-Ben

From what the Arilou tell you, you could conclude that the Orz are some kind of parasites. It would fit their ship's secondary attack (GO! GO!) as well!

There are parasites. Creatures who dwell Beyond.
They have names, but you do not know them. They would like to find you
but they are blind to your presence... unless you show yourselves.
The Androsynth showed themselves, and something noticed them.
There are no more Androsynth now. Only Orz.


BTW, did you ever wonder how did the Orz evolve? I mean, with those fins it'd be pretty hard to invent the wheel  ;)

Good idea. I haven't thought of this (yet).
This leads to more knowledge about *smell*s. Even a small change in the DNA construct seems to change our smell sufficiently to become unnoticed.

Apparently talking to Orz through the screen, and not from face to face, makes it difficult for Orz to smell me (the captain) and *pull* me. Lucky me!

What happens if Orz *smelled* some humans and notices the fine differences, and learns how to predict the differences and thus *smell* in advance?
Humanity is doomed!

Well, bye for now.
Martin

You are forgetting the Orz "invaded" the Earth orbital station when they allied with you, and commander Hayes tell you fish-like aliens are moving around in mechanical suits blah blah blah..

I think this *smell*ing thingy is not necessarily done by physical contact, perhaps some psychic connection - that could explain the ghosts/poltergeists..

It's like, "if you wouldn't believe in fairies you won't be able to see them", so once you "believe" in the Others (or however the Arilou call them) - then you can "see" them - and they can see you too.

You are right, [Censored]. I forgot about them.
A... Okay, nothing more to say for now

In the hope that people will keep it all togeather and post in this thread instead of Slyendro's....   BUMP!

Actually, all they'll have to do is read this entire thing and know...well, as much as we know about the whole ordeal.

Yes, and now everyone will agree on the subject (for the most part anyway.)!

Oh my, it's been a year already?!

and now everyone are repeating the same questions and discussions, aren't they? ;)

lol

Is this the biggest thread in forum history?

i do not know, but with this kind of talk continueing here, it surely will be...

Almost the biggest. It almost have the same post with the thread about "why do the ur-quan don't use their battle thralls against the koar-ah?", but that thread is over. They have the answer. Here we will NEVER have an answer.
Lets get to topic, shall we?

I really really don't have time to read the WHOLE thread, so excuse me if I repeat something that someone said.
I think that everything has a connection. Deep JIffa(ahem *children*), the Orz and *they*. I mean, they all talk about the same *thing*. Every race has its own goals to achive for them. I honestly don't know what is the job of the mycon(Maybe preaparing the land for the right tempature for *civilization* )but I know that both Orz and Arilou have the same goal: Destroy humans. The Orz killed our "brothers", the synth and I agree with sc3(not 100%) that the Arilou are just using us. I have a long theory about things in sc universe, but it will take to much time, and you know I am lazy, and people don't understand what I write... :P

Deep-Jiffa, how do you want to restart the discussion if you are not exposing your theory for a debate?

And for me, yes, the Arilou are using us.
But they are not trying to kill us (they could have done so, when they visited the Kelts. remember, they even liked us so much, that they took the name, the kelts gave them, as their racename). And the Mycon, Orz and Arilou do not want the same. In the eyes of the Mycon, they are not killing us, they are voiding the non. Granted, for us the effect is the same.
I do not know the plans of either the Arilou or the Orz.
I cannot really speculate and provide hints for the theories possible.
Only the Mycon are clear to me: a faulty programming made them voiding the non, and that means results in killing everything, which makes them even worse than the Ur-Quan Kohr-Ah.

Enjoy!
Krulle

But the question still remains - who took/killed the androsyn? the Orz or *they* or both?

I'm certain it's in this thread, but:

That's good enough for me.  And BTW, that's not the in-game fwiffo, that's PR3 using fwiffo's name in an old chat.

rrrrrrrrrRRRRRRAAAAAAARRGGHHH!!!!
They are NOT "Androsyn"!!!! You WILL add the 'th' to the end of the name or I will get an entire clone army to deeesstrrroooy yoouuuu!!!!

CALM DOWN NECRO - you are sound like a Orz who is mad!

OK - Take a deep breath - Good - take another one.

OK - I think his point is *they* are the Orz

Well look who came out of the wooodwork! Nice to see you again Censored, and yes, I distinctly rememeber this thread from around the time I joined.

On topic I have nothing to add, other than that anyone wanting to plow through this entire thing has got a lot of work ahead of them... But it may well be worth it.

...And I dedicate this thread to you Luki!!! :)

*Throws a pilow on luki's head*

Why are you throwing pillows DJ - I mean this topic is still open - Only once you have answered the question(s) can you allow yourself to be taken in by the pillowfight fever!

Not really...

Excuse me *many times* for not reading all those 16 pages ... are you writing a book here or what?

But what I hastely gathered, it seems everyone has their own theories for the Orz and Arilou ... you know, both being uncomprehendable and mysterious, mainly living in their own region of dimension etc. I'll give you my boring theory, which nobody understands (read my previous posts on other threads).

I think it is possible the Arilou and Orz are in a Kzer-Za vs. Kohr-Ah -like situation. Arilou try to do something and the Orz try to do the same thing, but differently. I hope you all know the Arilou are trying to modify humans or that-a-like since they are on the edge of their existence... Are the Orz nearing the end as well then?

I didn't make any sense this time either ...

Oh and Orz are evil. Really they are. They float in ethanol, they gotta be evil, or at least drunk.

I dont like the idea of a official explanation for the orz.
the reason why I would never have ine is that there are thing in our real would that can never be explained and if they ever were figured out this world would seem a dull and boring place.

so if you ever explain the orz, arilou and other mysterios races the game would lose some of that life.

Exactly. We don't break topics, we take over the finished ones. In that spirit, consider this:

If the Orz, as stated by the creators if one single entity, does it have any concept or understanding of the damage and hurt it can cause others? Can it understand the concept others? When the Orz *dance*, is it able to comprehend that the others do not only get their *fingers* *cut*, but their lives extinguished? And does this make it inccoent, even though it is capable of mayhem?

Just because Orz has been explained as one 4+D creature doesn't take away its mystery.  I would think it adds to it.  Explaining it as "dimensionally traveling bacteria" or something we can comprehand easily smacks of Star-Wars Metachlorians.

Responding to the original post by Soviet_Inclination:

In general, you have to consider where the Orz and Arilou are coming from.  I teach English as a second language and often find my students making well-meaning errors of speech (like confusing take and get - pretty understandable - then using it in a phrasal verb, like "I take it!").  They are using words that humans don't use (much).  

1) Arilou from Above

It sounds like the Arilou and Orz are both from other dimensions.  Not the same one, but both different from this one..

Remember when humans first started to realize how big space was?  We had a hard time defining direction - which way is UP?  Which way is NORTH?  Suddenly, we had to invent a whole new set of terms - but even today, most laymen prefer to use 'right'. 'left', 'up' and 'down'.  So it's hardly surprising that the Orz might, as well.  

2) We seek to trap *Nggn*

I don't think this is important.  Some people have noted that the Orz say something like this when they get angry, but I don't know if the two are actually related.  It sounds like a hobby for the Arilou, just to reinforce how *ALIEN* they are to us humans.  It's kind of refreshing, after meeting so many "humans in funny hats".  

3) Orz translation

There is a good stab at this already:

http://uqm.stack.nl/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Gendiscuss;action=display;num=1061290648

It alone will answer some of your questions.

4) What ARE the Orz?

I concur; the Orz are probably a single interdimensional entity.  Ever played Rifts?  

5) Taalo time tricks

I always figured that the Taalo escaped from the Ur-Quan the only way they knew - by time travelling.  I remember some other hints that made me think that the Arilou were also time travellers.

I always figured that either the Taalo had travelled to another time, or had entered a different 'phase' in the same time - ala the Flash from the old, old DC comics.  Some other people have suggested that they are endlessly replaying their final moments, hoping that someone can come, break the loop, and save them at the same time (*sequel idea*).

6) What does it mean when the Orz say that the Arilou are always *jumping in front*?

My guess is that the Orz keep trying to break into this world only to find the Arilou already there, waiting for them, to stop them, from wreaking havoc with them.  This makes a lot of sense if the Orz and Arilou really DO travel in time.

7) Again, what DID happen to the Androsynth?

I believe the Androsynth opened up a portal to Quasispace, whereupon they encountered the Orz.  Not having the same protection given to humans by the Arilou, the Androsynth "smelled" good to them, and they tried to drag the Androsynth to them - exchanging places in the process, or possibly just possessing the Androsynth and taking their place.

I suspect the latter, and that it happened gradually, which would explain the "land war" your scouts suggested.  If the Androsynth on the ground became Orz, their former cousins might well have fired on them, hoping to turn back the inevitable tide.

Hope this helps!

Scanning Anomaly

Thanks  ;D
actually I was trying to finish another Integral and Differential Math exam from two years ago, when I'm getting this email.. seems the forum still remembers me pushing the "notify of replies" button, so now I keep getting an email for every response here @)#%*)@#%  ;)

Well, as long as you're here, why don't you stay a while, and have a look? It's good to see an old face, not many around these days. Did you notice that we have a brand new off topic section?

Also I shall be remembering for future reference that if you are ever eneded, all that needs be done is a post in this thread.

On-Topic: If the Orz have no concept of morals, does that mean the Arilou have none either? are they simply more adept at hiding this?

That's a good point. It's even fun to invent wacky theories and discuss them endlessly. ;D



Well if they are manipulating humans, I think they have no concept of morals. Both (Orz and Arilou) do almost whatever they please.

oh well.. as long as I'm here ;)



concerning Arilou morals -
if I remember correctly from the game, I think they hint you at some point that they "need" humans (in order to survive?) and thus morals can be questioned.
however, they do say they changed humans so they would not be "seen". Is that a moral deed? did they do that to protect us humans or to protect themselves? (by not letting "it" invade this dimension). have they been hiding here from "it" ?

you can't really tell what the Arilou are or their purpose. Also, considering they are far ancient than humans, you'd guess they have evolved 'beyond' morals, or at least our definition of it. so, you can't really judge their acts from the moral view of it.

I think the Arlou need our ?DNA? to survive in because they are have mutations in their DNA. I personally think that the moment the Arlou get what they want from us they will leave.  - For good.

how do you back that up? considering they've first modified human genes over quite a few thousand years, is it taking them *that* long to extract whatever they need from us?

They specifically say they "watch over us", that we're "their children". seeing as we're strong enough to survive, they "are content" and only come to check on us at times.

Aaugh!  :o  No, no, no!  "The Arilou want our DNA" is a plot idea wholely from SC3.

The closest the SC2 Arilou Lalee'lay come to saying that they need soemthing from us is this:


It seems to imply that their interest in us is because of a interdimensional-familial bond.  Maybe like the bond a US citizen and a Brit would feel if they bumped into each other in the middle of Africa.


As further evidence, the arilou imply that what they did is not something that they decided to do, or were compelled to do, but that they were following Natural Law (of our universe or theirs) by changing our smell.  If they _chose_ to use our DNA, then their experiments wouldn't be automatic.

Really?
I have never played SC3.. must be memories from past discussions that come back to haunt me.

I've seen a movie called Memento some two weeks ago.. (for those who haven't seen it - it's about a man who loses the ability to transfer memories from short-term to long-term, which essentially makes his memory "reset" every 15 minutes)

now every time I forget something I feel bad  :P maybe I've killed someone just half an hour ago?

OK - Here is the story for all people. I have played SC2 before SC3, HOWEVER I got frusturated by SC2 because I was having trouble with a certain part and I am personally against walkthroughs. So I started on SC3 and beat it without trouble (I did use a walkthrough for that because I heard it was not good at all) Anyway the resulting factor is I have the SC3 ideas in my head first. So if any of you see me trying to include SC3 in any of my ideas then please slap me with a pillow!  ;)


Now on topic: I still have not figured out, if the Orz DID NOT "took / killed" the Androsynth then then why are they so touchy about it? And why are the Arlou so willing to talk about it. (Of course the could be lying).

Off Topic: When it comes to SC3, I liked the story line. Now before you guys flame me - I want you to consider this. I liked the idea of the Precursors coming back. Now I think that they did not do it properly at all - I think that only the creators of SC2 can do it right. That went for a number of I ideas in the game. Now a number of the ideas were just bad, bad, bad, But just remember this before every is on be for bringing up SC3 (by accident)! (Yes, you still have permission to hit me with a pillow).

As TFB have stated, Orz "snagged" the Androsynth. Whether or not the Androsynth are alive is another question. TFB referred to them as "missing". That seems to imply that they are alive.

The Arilou are willing to talk about Orz as a warning, but they refuse to go into any detail.

Like I said before, sc3 plot is great, but they did it incorrectly... :'(

Finally someone who agrees with on SC3!!!  ;)

The idea of explaining the precursers is not bad on its own, but is a very very broad idea.
The way they did it is what I don't like at all.

The Arilou are from Quasispace and the Orz are from an as-unnamed space.  'In between' would be 'normal space'- the realm which we inhabit.

A more vague interpretation would be that the Arilou are from one dimension, and the Orz are from another.  Basically the same thing, but this theory implies that Quasispace is not nessecarily the Arilou's home.

Personally I'd have to go with the former.



Nggn sounds like some sort of creature -remember when they mentioned their catch and release policy?  As for not being quite solid enough, its alluded to in related conversations with various races throughout the game- you, as a normal human, exist in only one plane at a time.  

In contrast, the Orz and the Arilou are pandimensional beings that can exist on more than one plane at once.  In fact, its pretty much stated flat out that the Orz that we know are not in fact the real Orz- they are just projections, or 'fingers'.

It stands to reason, then, that the same is true of the Arilou- though their comments on their comrades being 'forcefully discorporated' during the War with the Ur-Quan can be interpreted as belieing that theory.

In any event, the idea is that other 'realities' inhabit the same space as our own, but we cannot touch them.  A being that can be in more than one reality at once CAN, by its very nature, touch things in more than one reality, thus, the 'not solid enough' comment.



The lingual best fits are like Chinese symbols, they generally do not stand for any one word, but rather, for a concept or series of words.



They're either one single entity (mmm, the Mycon come to mind here.. but thats probably a false trail), or a community of entities, which can project themselves into other realities- like ours.

As for what they did with the Androsynth- the Orz either killed them or are keeping them captive and doing unpleasant things to them.

Personally I suspect that they got 'eaten'- though perhaps not in the traditional, gory way.

If one presumes that the Orz are 'they', or that the Orz have things in common with 'they', then the Arilou's comment about 'they' being some kind of parasites casts a sinister shadow over the mysterious lack of bodies among the shattered Androsynth buildings.



Pretty space- Hyperspace, Quasispace, or the aforementioned as-yet-unnamed-space.    This being as opposed to 'Heavy space', which is very clearly our 'normal' space.

As for time tricks.. I honestly haven't the foggiest...  maybe it means some Taalo are still alive?  The interdimensional beings in this game tend to have a very different view of 'time', so we can't really be sure WHAT that means.



Oh come on, that one is obvious -_-.  The Arilou are always interfering.

A more literal interpretation would be that this is a reference to armed conflict between the Orz and the Arilou, in which the Arilou employ their ship's teleportation ability.



My theory is this:  They researched and researched, popping holes into other dimensions and expanding their understanding... until suddenly they became aware of things in a way that they had never been before.

Its like having really bad cataracts in one eye all your life, then suddenly having successful cataract surgery.  Suddenly everything has a new side to it a new 'dimension' if you will.

This sudden intellectual and spiritual leap was the rough equivalent of standing straight up in a rice paddy during the Vietnam war.  The  phrase 'please shoot me' comes to mind.

This is also what happened to the unfortunate human scientist who learned too much from the Androsynth's computers.

He was spotted, then slowly ripped apart- 'eaten' by unseen forces.

Think of that old quote; 'any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic'.

If an interdimensional parasite started eating your people and exerting its will in your building, wouldn't your first thoughts be of the paranormal?


P.S.  The email I entered into the 'email' field on this page is spammed to hell.  If anyone wants to contact me, please do so on ICQ (27320261)
AIM (Majin Ohki)
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or
Yahoo (Sephlock)

This sudden intellectual and spiritual leap was the rough equivalent of standing straight up in a rice paddy during the Vietnam war.  The  phrase 'please shoot me' comes to mind.

I laughed so hard at this i spilled my coke =/ All in all, the best short explanation i've ever heard.
Sure, you can see everything, but they can also see you.
Its like turning on a flashlight during a knife fight when your not aware of the knifee and you dont have a knife.

And it's explicitly outlined that the Arilou did NOT evolve in Quasi-Space. They moved their home planet, from normal space, into it.

Arilou are obviously meant to be far more like us than Orz; their motivations are more understandable to us (they use the language of parenthood and such), they speak our language, they appear in more familiar bodies, and they specifically tell us we and they have much in common. We may even share genes, if we take some of the language about their experiments being their "children" literally. (Splicing certain Arilou genes into human genes to give humans important traits, using those genes in a fertilized ovum, putting the ova in kidnapped women, etc.)

Arilou specifically tell us that the only commonality between them and the Orz is that they're both interdimensional travelers; otherwise they're opposed in all ways. I take this partly to mean that Arilou are an ascended "mortal race" like humans, which is why humans are (probably) going to be their successors in some way. And Orz are something entirely unlike mortal races, fingers of some grotesque extradimensional superbeing, and Arilou oppose them because they're in favor of our kind.

At least that's what the Arilou want us to think. :)

Just gotta say this is both one of the best sequel hooks and *the* best Taalo theory I've seen. It's an extremely plausible way to get both Ur-Quan species in on the Captain's side working with him after the war, yet it builds up all kinds of drama and tension and possible conflicting ramifications. And it creates the possibility of timetravel to the past and *seeing* the Dnyaari Slave Empire ourselves, and it creates an interesting niche for the Orz as primary antagonists (maybe the Orz have been the ones keeping the Taalo timewarp isolated from the rest of the universe for their own dark purposes).

And hey, it even makes the title "Timewarp" make sense.

Is anyone from there listening?

I think that is a pretty darn good sequel. However, they're really gonna need to come up with a replacement Taalo anti psi rock, because the last one was locked up with the Talking Pet when the Vindicator went Boom.

Well, but then the last intelligent Talking Pet was locked up with the Taalo anti-psi rock when the Vindicator went boom, so the problem solves itself. :) (The Ur-Quan are *not* stupid enough to keep using those Talking Pets after what happened. They almost certainly squished them all immediately and fell back on using Melnorme "How To Speak Human" phrasebooks to communicate.)

I never said that it'd be a good idea to bring back the *Dnyarri* just because we're bringing back the Taalo in the sequel. Let the Taalo have their own personality beyond being the Magic Anti-Dnyarri Plot Device. Cute as the little guy is, I'd rather not take him up on an offer to make a game about action, drama, gratuitous alien sex scenes, and "the glory of... ME!" He's vaporized, end of that story arc, let's find a new villain.

Well, I think the Ur-quan would just find a new creature to use, as they think they are above talking to the humans directly.....

What, like Spathi? *pictures a Spathi with an Ur-Quan translator earpiece* "Um... Greetings, uh, rebel human slaves! You, er, you think you have won the war, but our superior *ulp* species shall still, uh, still prevail. We will fight to the... death... and though you de-de... *destroy* the whole rest of our fleet we have no-- no fear-- of your-- p-p-puny weapons... *PLEASE MASTER, I CAN'T DO THI-- OWW!* *whack* so... go on and att-attack, your att-attempts mean nothing... *sob*"

Wouldn't work too well.

Seriously, part of the Ur-Quan losing the war is gonna have to involve them getting an attitude adjustment about this whole "superior species" nonsense. The Sa-Matra was supposed to be the ultimate symbol of the whole "heirs to the Precursors" superior species thing. Losing it completely to some two-bit rebel inferior races in an area they thought was completely subjugated -- that's got to cause some sort of philosophical split.

Also the Dnyarri's status as intellectually neutered telepaths means they really were the only species that could function as translators the Ur-Quan didn't have to actually learn any other languages to use.

Ooh, I see I was replying to the wrong post. You mean the sequel going back to the Dnyarri Slave Empire and all.

Yeah, if you actually went back in time to the Taalo homeworld as it was about to get its butt blasted, you'd probably need some sort of shield against Dnyarri interference.

Then again, you don't need a new anti-psi rock, because if you go back to the past *before* it was destroyed (to the point in time when it was originally invented) then your problem's solved again! :)

I think a illwrath would do the job nicely - or they could just make a automated machine.  

Wait, were you talking PRE Taalo disappearence, or POST Taalo Disappearence?

Honestly, PLEASE don't mess with time travel. If the Captain simply takes the rock from the then taalo smouldering ruins, then he will instantly be desintigrated, as he would never have it in his past but the universes future to control to Dynarri to wipe out the Sa-Matra. *breath* Then he would lose the war and die and could not travel in time to take the rock again, so it would still be there in the future/past for him to use on the Dynarri. BUT THEN HE WOULD WIN THE WAR AND TRAVEL BACK AND TAKE THE ROCK AND START ALL OVER AGAIN ARGGHHHHH.

Migraine =(

That's interesting....Would the Kzer-Za know what it was that made them all leave, or was it like the spell 'Suggestion' from D&D?

BTW, i think that they will stop considering us inferior pretty damn quickly, especially when i take Lord_1 and Death_1 and trap them in the Delta Crateris system, guarded, with 5 Excruciators implanted into each of their brains.

The main point regarding Ur-Quan translation is that they speak in ultrasonic frequencies, while most of the other species we meet that talk seem to talk in the same aural frequencies that humans use. So other than using the telepathic Talking Pets or some other telepathic translator, to communicate with us they'll have to construct some artificial device to translate their speech, which means that in the process of doing so they'll have to learn our languages to program that device, which means contaminating themselves with knowledge of inferior cultures. So no matter what if they want to participate in the new galactic civilization they'll have to give up some of their high-and-mighty prejudices.

Re: Time-travel paradoxes. Yeah, mucking around with time travel opens up huge logic difficulties. Though your reasoning isn't necessarily sound; you can just *use* the Taalo Shield while you're in the past, do whatever you need to do to bring the Taalo to the present instead of being annihilated in the past (either way they disappear from the past so no history is changed) and leave the Shield behind you when you go, since there are no Dnyarri in the future. It'll still be there for your past self to find in the future.

A couple cannon discrepencies:
Arilou "moving" their homeworld is a SC3 fantasy.
Ur-Quan with squeeky voices is an (IIRC) Interbelum fantasy.

While I'm correcting things, allow me to correct your 4D grammer, Art.  
"It'll still be there for your past self to find in the future." -> "It willen being there for your past self to having found in your past-self's future." ;)

The coolest logical, practical use of time travel for problem solving was regarding the key/distraction/trashcan in Bill and Ted's Rxcellent Adventure, IMHO.

The 4D grammar was AWESOME =p
Oh, and if you take the Taalo device, then it will still make you disappear and be trapped in the infinite loop I mentioned.

Well, Arilou moving their homeworld is only made explicit in SC3, but it's... fairly well implied by SC2. Pockets of TrueSpace with inhabited planets on them presumably don't just pop up by themselves in QuasiSpace.

As far as Ur-Quan communication... hrmph, have I really been caught quoting fanon? (Yes, I do consider SC3 fanon and not canon.) Well, the Talking Pets must either be translating Ur-Quan thoughts into speech directly, or the Ur-Quan must be capable of communicating at inaudible frequencies, because there's no audible noise made when the Talking Pet "translates". I think the latter one makes more sense since it means that Ur-Quan don't have to change their normal way of talking at all when talking to inferior species.

Hey, there's a reason that all but the first few pages of that book are printed blank -- no one has the patience to slog through that nonsense.

But according to Bill & Ted logic, if your mission succeeds without a hitch, you'll put the device right back where you found it before returning to the future, and history will be just peachy. If you *fail*, you'll lose the shield somewhere in space, it won't be where you need to find it in the future, and your past self will get killed in the war and the events of the sequel will never happen. Since you *didn't* get killed, and the events of the sequel *are* happening, that means that it's an established historical fact that you won the scenario in the past and you're protected by fate, right? :)

Im sorry Art, i know how much you like to prove me wrong with 3-4 pages of well written text, but whenever i think about Time Travel, it just gives me a freakin huge headache =/

They might if you accept the 'QuasiSpace is a mental plane' argument from the 'They cannot see you now' thread, which seems about as reasonable as any conjecture abou the nature of other dimensions (such as HyperSpace and QuasiSpace).  And actually, the argument about QuasiSpace travel requiring 0 fuel use, and yet your ship coming to a swift stop when you're not thrusting, is fairly compelling; that doesn't make any sense by normal physics, and it doesn't even make much sense by slightly-odd 'closely related but different dimension' physics.  The idea about QuasiSpace (and therefore your ship, while you are in QS) being a psychological construct is kind of a good one, IMHO.

On the other hand, the Arilou *do* refer to their homeworld as being "nestled in a TrueSpace eddy", which suggests an actual physical planet and not a psychological manifestation.

*shrug*

The main thing is that if the Arilou are native QS-ians who have always been pure spirit, there's no reason for them to carry their rigmarole of ships and bodies and stuff to the point of making a home planet for your benefit. Particularly because seeing it there is actually more shocking than not seeing it, and because they don't actually let you go down and explore it anyway -- it has the feeling of something that's there because the Arilou want and need it there, not something they need you to see. Which makes it more believable that Arilou are, like you, TrueSpace beings who went into QuasiSpace and took their TrueSpace trappings with them, rather than QuasiSpace denizens who live as pure mind.

Your mind needs your ship to come with you when you travel through QS, so it does; probably in just the same way the Arilou needed a world to live on when they migrated en masse to QS, so Falayalirafali came with them, and is still there even if it's been changed to something more than an ordinary planet.

Well - thinking about it - it starts to make less and less sense about the quasi-propell/no fuel problem. See, you are required to get a ur-quan warp pod for it to work. Now, the pod will require fuel - And not just 10 units to get started - I imagine - to keep it going, you have to have it taking in fuel at quite a bit of speed.  

Hm?  I always thought the warp pod just needed fuel to power it while it did whatever it does with the Arilou's IDF-generating equipment; once the portal has been opened and you've gone through it, is any of that stuff still running?  I figured you were just in QuasiSpace at that point, so the warp pod wouldn't be doing anything.

Yeah, the Portal Spawner does gulp down fuel every time you use it. Forgetting about this fuel cost has left me in trouble before, stranded in Hyperspace on my way back to Sol. Time to call the Melnorme again.

It is creepy how those guys have a way of turning up no matter where you are. Makes you wonder what they're not telling us about what they can do...

Oh, yeah, also the Portal Spawner definitely isn't what you use to go through QuasiSpace. It can't be, because before you can get the Portal Spawner you have to enter QuasiSpace using the natural portal and go to Falayalirafali and ask them to make it for you, all with nothing but your regular ship and its regular engines.

Excellent point  - Maybe the ship used umm..... Quasi - Rocket Boosters?  ;)

That would be neat though (and slightly unfair) if the precursor ship could appear anywhere in hyperspace. Come to think of it - It really should with a little reverse engineering. I would not mind paying 10 in fuel every once in a while to get where I want. Though the postions would be seriously messed up compared to hyperspace...  

I don't think they know how to make Quasi-Rocket Boosters at the Starbase so it's unlikely the Vindicator comes with any pre-installed. I think the QuasiSpace as spiritual-dimension thing works a bit better than trying to think of a way where QuasiSpace somehow follows alternate laws of physics.

And... not having to rely on QS portals would make using QS seriously messed up, since if the portals really correspond to Hyperspace by some rule then the topology of QS is seriously messed up relative to Hyperspace. More likely the portals are constructs within QuasiSpace that either by accident or design (of the Arilou) lead to various Hyperspace locations irrespective of their QuasiSpace locations, just like portaling into QuasiSpace leads you to the same QS location regardless of whether you use the Spawner or the natural portal (and regardless of where you spawn the portal).

Space is 3D, how do we know that because we are looking at it from a VERY different angle to hyperspace, it just appears to be messed up?

On the subject of Ur-Quan speech, keep in mind that you don't really hear most of the races.  They're your computer translating.  

You can't hear the true Ur-Quan speak because the verbal communication is comming from the Talking Pet.  You have to remember that being a translator is their ultimate punishment, hence one reason they never take the time to personally learn your language.

My personal thoughts have always been the Ur-Quan thinks directly into the Talking pet, and the talking pet translates and transmits it indirectly to your ship.

One confusing idea...
What beef do the Ur-Quan have about learning our language? None of the races do learn any other language, the universal translator does that for them?

Ur-Quan seemingly view themselves as the top life form around.  Makes sense, I suppose, as they are one of the oldest.

Why should THEY have to stoop down to OUR primitive level?

I've always been skeptical about the idea of "universal translators" in general; if one has to exist, I'd prefer it be an artifact of the super-powerful Precursor computer and not something you can buy at any Spathi hardware store. After all, as you say, the existence of universal translators as technology make the Talking Pets a lot less necessary or interesting. Moreover, UTs are just such a *powerful* technology -- they bespeak either an incredible ability to process huge amounts of data (from spying on radio transmissions and computer networks) to write a dictionary in a relatively short time, or else some sort of hand-wavy ability to read different aliens' "brainwaves" and make a dictionary from that (which is really too silly an idea for words, but Star Trek likes it).

Even if there were such a thing as a universal translator I doubt it would be as effective as actually learning another language, since unless the computer is *itself* as smart as a human translator who knows and fully understands both languages something will always be lost in translation. And being able to fully communicate in something as fuzzy and intuitive as a human natural language makes a computer awfully close to being truly sentient, and we don't get the impression that truly sentient machines are common desktop items in Star Control 2. I'll admit maybe the Precursor ship computer could have that capability, or at least the ability to cleverly simulate such a capability (since Precursors are supposed to be miracle workers), but c'mon, not every standard Cruiser shipboard computer.

Also, it makes more sense for several of the aliens if they aren't talking through a translator; why on Earth would a translator give an alien an accent in the translation? Do real-life interpreters speak their English translations in French accents to add "flavor", or to remind you that the original speaker is French? Is there any reason why one should?

Furthermore, should wordplay (like changing the word "worship" to "warship") carry over in a translation? How the hell could it?

You tell the Ilwrath to say "yuubuu" instead of "you"; this is funny and sort of makes sense because yuubuu rhymes with "you". So if the Ilwrath word for you is "druk", what does the computer tell the Ilwrath to say? "Drukbuu"? "Drukbruk"? What if "drukbruk" is a word that means something while in English "yuubuu" means nothing? Then the computer's changed the meaning of the original alteration of the word, hasn't it? The computer would have to *think* to come up with the best way way to translate the pun to make sense, and no answer is exactly right because the Ilwrath language wouldn't have the same sets of homonyms as English -- same with puns like "worship" and "warship", or the Spathi "huge-glands" for "humans". These things are highly, highly unlikely to be the same across languages, and a computer would have to be actively creative to preserve them in a way that stretches believability. At the very least the process of doing so would be more complex than just talking normally and assuming everything will get through translation okay. Also troublesome is the ability of aliens to speak "untranslated" and then give the translation to make a point -- the Supox, for instance, call their world Earth, the translation of Vlik, and then tell you that Vlik means Earth. Well, in what language, if the translator by default translates the word into English? How does the translator know when to translate and when not to? Is the Supox flipping the translator switch off and on quickly when he's saying that? C'mon.

I can buy the existence of a UT for plot purposes just to communicate with races that have been previously completely undiscovered, like the Orz (though bear in mind that that translation is still highly choppy and vague, and it may not be just because the Orz's language is "unorthodox" -- after all, Earth human languages are so different from each other you can't point to a single model for what an "orthodox" *human* language would be, much less alien languages). It may also be necessary to talk to races that probably can't physically speak our language, like the Mycon or the Chmmr or the Probes or the Slylandro, though notice all of these conversations are utterly lacking in the artifacts of natural speech -- accents, wordplay, and so on -- and both sound and feel like you'd expect a computerized translation to sound and feel, a bit too perfect, a bit too polished, a little uninteresting, even if in different ways each time based on the underlying personality of the speaker.

Though even then I wouldn't say these people *need* to be translated by UT; Chmmr and Probes may be able to communicate with your computer directly in a way that the computer translates to human speech, Mycon may create specialized forms for the purpose of communication -- a good explanation for having humanoid Mycon at all, and the Slylandro are talking to you through a Precursor broadcasting satellite to a Precursor ship, so the translation may be entirely through known, preprogrammed dictionaries of Slylandro-to-Precursor-to-Human. It'd explain why they have a name derived from Greek, a human language ("Sky-Man"); Farnsworth or Zelnick may have found a reference to "Sky-Men" when originally testing the computer and chosen a poetic Greek name for that mysterious race.

The Slylandro in every way are a lot less like us and a lot less ordinary than, say, the Yehat, yet the sound of their voices and the sentence structures they use are a lot more everyday and ordinary than the Yehat's, probably because the Slylandro's communication has been piped through programs that make neat little translations and the Yehat's haven't.

After all, we don't *need* to assume the existence of a truly universal translator in every situation. This isn't like Star Trek where we're constantly landing on planets that have never been explored before. These are mostly races that have lived in the same part of the galaxy all their lives, many of which have just participated in a decades-long war where there were many opportunities to communicate with each other. Learning the languages of one's enemies would be a priority, and remember that the Human race is unique because it's only recently made first contact, and learned about Hyperwave transmissions and how to shield them; for its entire industrial history it's been throwing huge numbers of unguarded radio transmissions into space, and the Star Control 1 manual specifically tells us that most of the neighboring aliens were monitoring their transmissions closely and with great interest.

We're told the VUX had already learned to speak English, and the Humans were surprised that they did, a blow against the idea that truly universal translators are a common device in this part of space (or else Rand would never have thought that he was "safe" while the transmitter was on, since anyone could hear anything he was saying just by turning on a universal translator).

Sure, a UT on the surface of things looks like it makes things easy in science fiction, since it makes it look like everyone's speaking English without explaining why, but in reality it creates a lot more problems than it solves, and in many situations it's simpler to just say that people are speaking English and come up with an explanation for why. Here it's not all that farfetched; you're the inexperienced boy thrust into command without formal training, so you haven't learned anyone else's languages, but the majority of the people you talk to are ambassadors, PR reps, or else just grizzled veterans who have spent a lot of time fighting for or against your race, with its tendency to send random transmissions into the ether. In any case claiming that the UT is a panacea rather than a powerful but flawed device to only be used when necessary. The only point in the game when we're sure we're using a translating computer is talking to the Orz, and even then we don't know what's going on -- the computer says "translation computer", not "universal translation computer", and there's no reason the Orz can't be speaking an extremely garbled version of a known language from nearby space like Androsynth or VUX (which would make "unorthodox structure" a much more sensible comment). Certainly there's no good explanation for why a species that was originally a single entity in a nonphysical dimension would have a "native language" at all.

More on this later, as this is one of my pet peeves -- my sister is a linguist who really likes fantasy and sci-fi languages like Elvish or Klingon, and universal translation computers are basically the ultimate slap in the face to linguistics as a science -- a statement by sf writers that the problems of language aren't really interesting to them and that in their imaginary worlds alien languages are just English in a secret code.

There's a lot more that can be said about the Ilwrath and the Spathi and other stuff (the whole Dogar and Kazon exchange has a hard time making sense whether you decide there was a translator computer or not), but I'll leave that for another post.

No go. Time and distance are measurable in SC2, and that stars that are close together on the map are close together in reality (take a short time to go to, take little fuel to go to) means that the 2D map projection we're using accurately represents the stars' actual relationships to each other in distance. Unless the ship is perversely taking some paths that are much, much longer than they need to be to simplify the map, there's no way you can make sense of QS portals' position in QS that matches the distances in HS -- if there's no bending and twisting involved, then portals that are closer together in HS will *still* be closer together in QS.

It's better to ignore the third dimension entirely anyway, since you can't really make sense of anything in SC2 otherwise; in real life there's no meaningful justification for moving in a plane when you could save time moving in 3D in space, so we should assume that in the "real" SC2 universe the Hyperspace map we see is just the only way we, the players, have of understanding the "real", 3D Hyperspace map. Otherwise we'd also take the game literally about such things as a Shofixti Scout being a fifth of the width across of a planet, or laser beams making sounds when they fire in space.

How incredibly freaking boring would this game be without all of its 'nagging' little inaccuracies?

Heres my idea.

Most races, before achieving hyperwave broadcast, sent out many many radio signals, These radio signals were collected and stored by the Mhnnrhmn, the only ones i think could have.
After exploring all of known space, the Mhnnrhrhrm built translator devices, and with the cross referancing of the multitude of words, and a lengthy study of this, they were able to produce a workable UTD. The Orz are garbled because they're new, and from a different dimension.
The Slylandro use a Precursor satellite, which i assume translates extremely well.
The Ur-Quan both use Talking pets, which translate thought to speech in any language. ( If your gonna slam Talking pets communicating, then just think how ridiculous an idea Telepathy really is.)
No matter their differences, all races immediately realised the enormous importance of communication, regardless of their opinion of the Mhrhrnm.

Now, Accents.
The UTD has been built after a huge length of time, and the Mhrhmmmnm have no knowledge of any type of accent, because theyre machines. So, any translations would carry over the original accent, because they can't distinguish between say, an umgah accent, and a texan accent.

As for sound traveling in space, I always assumed the ships computer simulated the sounds for the benefit of the pilot. That way he can use more than his sight to fly.

Hyperspace is not necessarily 3D. We know that true space has at least three dimensions + time. The in-game map of Hyperspace has to be adjusted so that humans can read it, so if Hyperspace has three dimensions, it is flattened into two dimensions, making it inaccurate. If hyperspace has more than three dimensions, the 2D map is most likely even more inaccurate.

The starmap in SC3 was a True Space map, which showed the actual positions of stars. Hyperspace can twist true space in ways we can only guess, or maybe even can't guess, because it involves physics too alien for us. Human imagination is not limitless - for example we can't think of more than three dimensions.

Of course we cant.

Also, almost anything we know about space is theoretical at this stage.

Any atronomical star locations known today would be irrelevent to SC2 Hyperspace, because the stars are the same names as we have now, assigned at random (though, in constellations).

BTW, are you sure this is the right thread?

Quasispace >= Space Mutable by Thought:
That's a great theory and it does solve a lot of those nagging questions about QS.  Some of them were already mentioned, but I'll list three more:

1)  Why do the arilou only have a sphere of influence in TS, why no skiffs in QS?
The arilou, upon entering QS, realize they don't need their ships, and in fact can travel instantaneously in QS by imagining themselves wherever they need to be.  Freakishly powerfull, but fitting.

2)  Why do you always start in the same location in QS, no matter where you use your spawner/natural portal?
The Arilou said it was so; and it was good.

3)  Why do QS portals drop you in plot-important points, and only in this sector of space;  why are they so dense in the center of QS?
Again, the Arilou decided that this arrangement would benefit you the best.  Supposedly, these could be the easiest portals for them to imagine/create too, and they only happen to be close to usefull places (an explaination for the portal that leads to the lower-right corner of the map).


Universal translators:
The VUX do have a UT; their tech in that field is above anyone else's current tech.  That's why Rand got caught.  Presumably, earthlings have limited UT (mostly for the U.N.), or something they got from another race.
The Precursor ship does have a UT, and it only hiccups with the Orz and (sort-of) Arilou.  I say sort-of with the arilou, because they seem to be putting in the lingual best-fits themselves, in your language instead of making the computer do it.
The Ur-Quan don't care about learning other languages; it's the act of communicating itself that the find distasteful, no matter the language.  I doubt a UT would help with that aversion, so despite what some people say, the Dnyarri may have a job even after SC2. *shrug*

Hyperspace:

Hyperspace pretty much has to, itself, be an ordinary 3D space (or 4D space-time). People can navigate within it even withut use of the autopilot, and can draw intelligible maps of it, and know where things in it are relative to each other. This would be impossible for an average person if Hyperspace somehow itself contained more than three spatial dimensions.

Since perceiving extra spatial dimensions is impossible for our bodies -- we're made in three dimensions, we don't have anything to see an extra dimension *with* -- if we could travel along an extra spatial dimension every step along the way would be perceived by us as a separate 3D space, just like a Flatlander moving around through 3D space would probably see himself as moving through a series of separate 2D planes. (Read the book _Flatland_ if you haven't; it's one of the best ways to get some grasp on what the idea of "higher dimensions" really means, by examining our 3D space from the perspective of a 2D being.) The most natural explanation for "interdimensional travel" is just that we live in a giant universe of lots of spatial dimensions, and every time we change our orientation within it we perceive the new "slice" of space-time as a 3D universe; in fact it's hard to imagine how we could *not* do so, how a human being could actually stop perceiving a 3D universe and start perceiving a 4D or 5D one.

This also means that just because the Hyperspace map in the *game* is 2D doesn't mean that a "real-life" Hyperspace map in the "real" SC2 universe is 2D. It's preposterous to think that either Hyperspace itself is 2D; any space a 3D person occupies is by definition a 3D space. And there's no reason why it'd be more natural for humans to read a 2D map than a 3D map; Hyperspace is a *space*, not the surface of some planet, and leaving out the dimension of depth in such a situation would make a 2D map nearly useless except as a very abstract form of representation. We have devices that can project 3D images now, either stereoscopically (3D glasses) or holographically -- we don't use them now because they're expensive and we don't need them for anything important, but could a ship designed for moving through huge spaces from star to star have any reason for *not* having one?

In any real universe Hyperspace navigation must be 3D or it's meaningless, just as in any real universe the relationship between how well a ship's armor absorbs damage, how much the ship's systems are damaged and how many crew actually die in a fight would be very complex. In SC2 both are grossly simplified for *game-playing* purposes. The real SC2 Hyperspace isn't meant to be 2D; it's just shown to us in 2D.

We assume it's a simplification of the relative distances between close-by stars, removing many key points where the direction of travel is *into* or *out of* the map rather than over its surface; this would be roughly possible since on the large scale the galaxy is arranged as a disc much wider and longer than it is thick, though there'd still be plenty of distance separating stars across the Z axis on the small scale. It's a game-representation, just like the real SC2 ships probably don't lose exactly four crew members with every shot then suddenly explode when all the crew are dead. Just like playing Counterstrike is not a perfect simulation, and real-life counterterrorists don't have one minute to purchase all their equipment before a mission, or are able to instantly measure their health as a percentage of their HP, and so on.

Languages will be on a separate thread because this one is already insanely long.

So... you're saying that a 3D0 game can't have Doom III graphics?  ;)

I agree completely that hyperspace isn't 2D. That was just the limit of gaming systems back then. You couldn't have an expansive 3D hyperspace area, because the computers simply couldn't handle it. A 2D hyperspace area works perfectly with the rest of the game, and it allowed the best graphics and experience possible.

Of course... they could've done a vector graphic hyperspace, but I don't think you'd enjoy it too much. You'd be flying around a Vindicatior made of twigs, in a big black twiggy space.  :)

On the other hand, HS and QS could have two large extensive dimensions and one smaller one which wraps around quickly. There is no point in navigating in the third dimension, since you would quickly wrap around to your initial position. Also, General Relativity suggests a mechanism by which the 'natural' width of this dimension could be very small and grow to accommodate masses which suddenly appeared within it.

Secondly, it is well-established that the Hyperspace coordinates do not have a nice correspondence to the relation of the stars in normal space. However, TS, HS and QS could be different projections of the higher-dimensional manifold in which all are embedded.

My explaination is simpler, they just do not have the other tense. Ask your Chinese friends about what they think about English tense. http://uqm.stack.nl/yabb/images/wink.gif


China has neighbors such as Japan and Korea which has much more complex tenses and completely different syntaxs, but it doesn't affect the way that Chinese speaking. :-)


I prefer the view:"Everything uncommon is strange."
If you have never heard of marsupials, when you see one, of course you will think that it is strange.

Suppose Orz said:" You are so strange."

What do you have in mind? Of course you will think: "You are strange, not me."

It doesn't support that Orz is the only sentience being in their home dimension.



Thanks, Arilou! :-)
In our senses, we recognize that human and Androsynth are similar in the level of genes. But beyond that we can not recognize what's difference. Orz however, recognize objects in difference aspects. They *smell* objects. If what Arilou said is true, then Orz will not realize the similarity between human and Androsynth because they have different *smell*.

Human make (what the damn tense I should use?) perfect copies of themselves  to make Androsynth in genic level, but probably nothing else. Consider a photocopier, it can perfectly copy the image and text, but it can not copy the smell (literally) of original document.



Apperently Orz have its own language. And it is trying to learn. Because:


*Campers* like to say `hello' when they *smell* the Orz.
We have learned this. It is *no function* but Orz want to make *campers* happy everyday.
Okay... Hello!! Now you are happy I am sure.


All the misunderstanding is because we (and they) do not have time to get enough training set to build a desirable translator.

Well, not just being tenseless but lacking any context with which to judge time. Chinese by nature doesn't contain any way to inflect a verb to give it a place in past, present or future but to infer anything from this about a Chinese attitude toward time is premature. In ordinary conversation Chinese speakers use plenty of cues to locate a particular action in time when it's important to the conversation -- time-words form an integral part of the sentence, and take the place of Indo-European tensed verbs. Sure, in Chinese you *can* leave out time when it's clearly implied or you want to be purposely ambiguous or general. But the Orz seem to make all sorts of statements in the present tense (or what the struggling translator translates as the present tense to us) with zero clarification or indication of time. No "First the Taalo are here long before now, then the Taalo leave 77 time units later". The difference is one of attitude and culture, not just language; the Orz are blantantly blase about the whole business of when things happened and in what order.

This is especially disturbing when you think that Orzese is probably not a totally new language, both because the translator, even a really smart translator, prolly couldn't make a dent in a totally new language that quickly, and also because the Orz don't seem like they had language or culture as we know it pre-Androsynth-disappearance since they were just one being -- "just Orz" -- before pushing in their *fingers* into our world. The translator's complaints, in my interpretation, probably come from the fact that they're speaking some mixture of known languages that *do* normally have tense, but perversely refuse to use tenses and keep everything in present tense by choice, reflecting their worldview.



Yes and no. In real life you can only tell so much from how "strange" a language sounds, but the clear impression that the makers of the game wanted to make by having so much of the basic word base of the language translated and yet having the langauge still sound so stilted and weird was to make us feel that the cultural assumptions of the Orz were very different from our own. Language systems may remain separate, but cultures that interact for a long time will begin to share basic assumptions about the world, and diverge greatly from the cultures of other parts of the world. China, Japan and Korea are all very different from each other, yet they considered each other much alike compared to the Indians, or to the Europeans. That's the real problem with postulating that *Pretty Space* is populated with humanlike creatures; it's very hard to imagine that a place where Orz is the dominant life form would be hospitable to creatures like us; we'd either become more like them quickly or die.



Well, yes, but the way it's stated is meant to give it weight. (Yes, I'm arguing this from the fact that it's in a game and we're meant to pay attention to it, even though it'd be weaker evidence in real life. Sometimes you have to do that, particularly in an often unrealistic game like SC2.)

The Orz have a generalized word that the translator interprets as *other*, and are convinced that *other* -- not just you, but the general concept of "other" -- is *strange*, by definition, and *Orz* can never be strange, by definition.

It may be true that Americans think everyone else in the world is strange, but they don't believe it's a natural law that one is either American or strange, no exceptions. (Not most Americans, anyway.) Americans live their whole lives with each other and recognize that even fellow Americans, fellow New Yorkers, fellow Manhattanites, fellow members of one neighborhood, fellow members of one *family* -- that people can be strange and hard to understand to each other. If one person asks another "Why are you so strange?" (assuming they're friendly enough for this not to immediately lead to hostility) the other person will hopefully try to consider what's *different* about the two people and explore that difference. They won't adopt the egocentric viewpoint that strangeness does not depend on point of view, that by definition I Am Not Strange -- I am what the universe bases its definition of normality on -- and therefore The Other is always strange. That's the attitude of a child, or a sociopath.

So it's a bit clumsy of the Captain (he's only a kid, remember!) to put his foot in his mouth and flat-out ask why the Orz are strange, but it's more disturbing that the Orz don't answer the question, or think the question worth answering. They don't try to explore what makes human life different from Orz life -- they just laugh at you, basically, and flat-out contradict you and insist that the strangeness is all on you.



An apt analogy, but a flawed one, since human beings are all "photocopies" of each other anyway; our actual body mass is just made out of all the random food we eat and air we breathe. A human being born from a mother's womb is just a bunch of random organic crap the mother ate rearranged according to the data in a few strands of DNA. An Androsynth is just the same way, even if the DNA was poked around in a petri dish rather than being made by the random shaking and mixing of sex. In fact we don't know what Ho's process was, but I doubt Androsynth were significantly genetically distinct from "real" humans; the way they're described they're pretty much the same as what you'd get if you did a talent search for intelligence, athleticism, physical beauty etc. (as well as various medical conditions that lead to sterility) and picked the absolute best "natural" specimens in the world. It's like saying there's a difference between a pair of dice that comes up sevens when you roll it and a pair of dice that you carefully arrange into sevens with your fingers. They're physically identical; the only difference is origin.

Since They, or the original Orz-entity, or whatever ate the Androsynth seems to be an entity of spirit and not matter, I doubt that the "smell" the Arilou talk about is some literal chemical difference between Androsynth genes and our genes, or the quality of food you get in Vulpeculae as opposed to Sol, or whatever. I think it's partly mental and cultural conditioning as well; humans have some block put in place by the Arilou that keeps them from messing with Dimensional Fatigue research, psionics, and other dangerous fields, but the Arilou did nothing to stop the Androsynth from trying the same stuff. Whether it was the actual experiments themselves or something deeper -- some racial "spirit" of the Androsynth, like in Interbellum, that seeks out other worlds while the human spirit doesn't -- it's something caused by the Androsynth's cultural separation from humans, not their physical nature; I doubt Androsynth would even be considered a separate race were it not for humans' original prejudice, and its aftermath.

This is an important real-life issue to me, by the way, since there actually is a lot of blind hysteria about genetic engineering and cloning of humans out there, and some maniacs who go on about how human clones will not be actual human beings. I fear that real-life Androsynth will suffer very similar problems to the SC2 ones, at least at first.



See... this little passage is disturbing because it actually goes against the evidence that the Orz are just like us and the translator's just screwy. At least we see that the idea of greeting or hailing a stranger whom one has met -- something that all other SC2 races we meet do, and something that the Orz seem to confirm is common among normal races, with their use of the general *campers* rather than "you" -- is utterly alien to the Orz, and they only do it because they think it makes us happy. To them it has no function -- they're not used to having to be alerted or have their attention drawn to others' presence, interestingly, and they don't go through social rituals to initiate contact with others. They *still* don't understand the concept of greeting to establish friendly intent as a social ritual -- they think greeting-words like "Hello" are magic words, that they can use to automatically alter humans' mood, like pressing a button. They don't understand how we think, nor do they seem to really care to; they figure out what makes us happy -- what keeps us from making trouble -- and they just do it because it suits them, and they expect it to work on us mechanically rather than thinking about our point of view as thinking beings.

Maybe that's a lot to take from this, but I do think it's what we're *meant* to take from this by Paul and Fred. The Orz are sinister, and they're meant to be not just 'cause they're different from us but 'cause they're just different from our whole kind, sentient individuals.

I don't think the case is closed that the Orz-entity is unique. I do think it's silly to claim that the Orz are just ordinary guys with really good telepathy, or that the Orz are all remote telepresence units and the "man behind the curtain" is a sentient being just like us. The Orz-entity obviously doesn't deal with difference and with interaction the way we do; whatever "others" there are, it doesn't have the same forced relationship with them as we do with our physical neighbors. The idea of Orz and their unnamed *cousins* as separate floating mind-gods in empty dimensions is a compelling one, and one that I think is very likely -- Orz might have cousins that are similar to it but it's never really had to talk to them or share with them or whatever, since they all think like it anyway, and none of them physically impinge on each other, need anything from each other, or whatever. They might mindlessly share thought (if they didn't then Orz might not even be able to function at the level of using language at all) but they don't need to communicate functionally the way humans do.

And yes, I do think having Orz christen the Eternal Ones as *friends* was one of the few good ideas in SC3. (The Precursor thing was sort of a good idea... and the Eternal Ones themselves... could've been good with a little work... but yeah, it's a short list.)

Actually Chinese does have tenses, but using present tense is still Ok. By the way, if you consider that orz is learning English, and you are his teacher, how do you correct his grammar?


Yep, but do you agree that some people talking strangely means that they have no neighbors? I don't think so. I use that as example to object Matticus's points.


We, and other life forms in this sector are unfamiliar to Orz. But apparently they are familiar to themselves. If we define that "unfamiliar" as strange, then the life forms in this area, including you, are strange. Orz is familiar to him/herself, of course they are not strange.

We can not expect every alien replies the "You're strange" comment positively.



You totally miss my point.
If Orz identifies a life form by DNA or genes only, it can immediately recognize you and do the same thing to you.
But it didn't do that to you, because it notices something different. DNA is not the major feature for Orz to classify the life forms.

For example, scientist used to apply some perfume on worker ants, and those ants were attack by others when they returned their nest. Does perfume change their DNA? No.
Why were they attacked? They smelled different.



1. Translator is screwy doen't means it will make mistake all the time.
2. IMHO, if translator is not screwy, it should translate "no function" to "useless".
3. What I am trying to claim is:
  a. Orz doesn't not much about human.
  b. Orz tries to understand human.
4. Orz might not consider that "hello" is the magic word as you described. You said "Hello", a few minutes later you have a peaceful ending. They might conclude that "hello" is a positive word which is good to say.

Chinese doesn't have tensed verbs that change their form based on time. It does, however, have many ways to tell us the time frame a sentence takes place in. The Orz language as we have it presented to us contains no such indications; either their time-indicators are impossible for the translating computer to figure out, or the Orz don't use them. The former may be more likely, but the latter is more interesting in the game's context and is probably how the creators wanted us to view it. Remember that this is, after all, a game; the Orz are not real people but fictional characters whom the creators want us to see a certain way, so we should probably take odd things that we notice about them with more credence than how we'd view them in real life.

And the Orz aren't learning English -- they aren't even speaking in English in the first place, they're being translated by a computer. There are two possibilities that I see: the Precursor computer is able to magically translate the Orz's language as they speak, but the weirdness of the Orz's thought processes makes the translation inaccurate, or the Precursor computer can translate Orzese because Orzese is based on a different language, and the weirdness of Orzese is *introduced* into that language by the Orz's mindset. The argument that Orzese is just a language that randomly happened to evolve with a certain structure that made it seem weird to us is least compelling to me, since the language thing is clearly meant to be part of an overall presentation of the Orz as more alien than all the other (very non-human) aliens we've met.



The way they talk strangely might point to the fact that they have neighbors in the sense you mean, or that they don't deal with their neighbors in the way that we're used to. There is hard and fast evidence that the Orz are a single entity with many projections that can exist on a higher dimensional level than human beings -- this is both the obvious reading of many, many of their lines and also something that has been commented on and confirmed by the creators outside the game, so no matter what they will not -- *cannot* -- think of their sentient neighbors the way we do, any more than we could understand what it was like to be an ant, or a desktop PC. For us being someone's neighbor involves some concept of physical proximity, competition for resources, etc., and from their words and actions the Orz don't seem to truly get these concepts, because, as they say, they are not *many bubbles*. They are alone in a sense that human beings are never alone, even if they aren't alone in every sense.

I do think there are other Orz-like entities separate from the Orz-entity, and I think the lines about *cousins* support the idea that there are. But the Orz are not neighbors with anyone the way we are neighbors with anyone, just like they're not neighbors with each other, and several lines of their dialogue seem explicitly constructed to make that point.



Sure, but they don't reply to it so dismissively, either. The VUX's response to an attack on their appearance is tinged with all kinds of things -- defensiveness, a judgment of our character, territoriality, aesthetic appreciation. The VUX even acknowledge that their reaction to us is irrational but they can't help it because of their instincts and such.

The Orz don't react this way at all; they don't get hostile or attack you at this point, or even seem to understand that being called strange is meant to be insulting. The idea of strangeness is so *simple* compared to our idea of "strange" (note that their *strange* is a best-fit word) that they seem to treat it as very odd that anyone would even try to call them strange -- as silly an idea as telling them "You are over here, not over there" or "You are not you, you are me". They *equate* the idea of "strange" with "non-Orz", which means that no Orz ever finds "another" Orz strange and no Orz can understand how any non-Orz might find Orz strange (can switch points of view with his non-Orz counterpart). Both of those are unlikely traits to find among adult human beings, at least openly expressed.



Oh sure, I don't think we necessarily disagree. The difference between Humans and Androsynth is there, and is *very* strong for the Orz -- so strong that they don't even notice we and the Androsynth are similar at all, much less confuse us for each other.

I would argue that the difference is not physical, however, as you seem to be implying. The difference is one between humans' and Androsynth's "upbringings", their culture, their national spirit, something of that nature. Physically, Androsynth and humans *would* be identical, or at least extremely similar, so much so that anyone who judged by appearances would notice it. Your original point was that the Androsynth were imperfect copies made out of different essential "stuff" from human beings, which is a common misunderstanding that I objected to -- all human beings are imperfect copies of other human beings made from new organic stuff; it's that principle that makes cloning possible, and clones would not in any way be physically different or physically less human than a natural-born human being. Androsynth would only be slightly odd human beings physically; it's their bizarre and traumatic history, leading to a certain cultural mindset and psychology, that would make them unique.



See, what you overall seem to be trying to say is that we shouldn't draw conclusions about the Orz at all because they're just different from us, we've just met them, and we may misinterpret things.

I'd be all for this in real life, but 1) that'd be totally boring, and 2) it *is* a game written by human beings who probably did have a purpose in mind when making the Orz the way they are. Most of the aliens you talk to in the game are not humans, but they saw fit to make it so that you can communicate with them in more or less plain English without the kind of deliberate obscurity there is in Orz-talk. It's pretty clear that they *do* want the Orz to seem more weird than everybody else, and that they probably want us to draw conclusions from the way they wrote the Orz dialogue about *how* the Orz are more weird than everyone else.

So yes, the translator is screwy, but it's not randomly screwy -- as the translator tells you, it's trying to give English words that carry some set of connotations that roughly match what the Orz is saying ("best-fits").The creators want us to get some ideas from the sorts of best-fits they use.  *No function* is different from *useless*, since useless is more pejorative than no function (you say a tool that's broken is useless, while a rock that's just sitting there has no function), and the grammar of "It is *no function*" implies that a function might be something an object is, not just something an object has -- implying a stricter classification between objectively functional things and objectively nonfunctional ones than humans see (perhaps self-centeredness), referring to the mathematical definition of a "function" as an expression that predictably returns one dependent value for every independent value -- perhaps referring to "hello" as a word with no clear definition or a variable, emotion-based definition... and so on. None of these are definitive or meant to be, but they all convey *ideas* that the word "useless" doesn't, just like the use of *party* instead of "battle" conveys certain emotions and ideas, or the use of *fingers* instead of "representatives", or *squeeze* the *juice* instead of... whatever *squeeze* the *juice* might mean.

That said, point 3, also, is disputable; we don't know much about the Orz's thought processes at all, obviously, but most of the time they really seem to be going along their merry way without much concern for understanding you, your motivations or your needs. If we take the "hello" exchange as meaning to give us real information rather than just saying "Orz don't understand the Earth custom of greeting", then it's an example; the Orz don't actually ever ask you why you say hello or what greetings are (they don't ever actually ask you *anything*), but they tell you hello because it makes you happy, and say it multiple times so that you will be happier. Say what you will but this shows that, at the very least, they are content with a very limited understanding of human customs (and at most they have a frighteningly detached attitude toward our customs and toward us in general).

Correction: Upon rechecking, "strange" is one of the words the translator is sure about, not a best-fit. I think the point still holds however.

By this statement, I am reminded of Xorinia from the Ultima series.  Xonrinia is the name of the Dimension that the Wil 'o the Wisps come from, and each Wil 'o the Wisp is just a projection of Xorinia; the Dimension and the Entity are one in the same.  Its "purpose" (supposedly self-appointed) is to act as a communications conduit between other dimensions.  I bring this up because every time you initiate conversation with a Wisp, it says (paraphrased): "Greetings Britainia [the fantasy earth-like dimension in Ultima; -C20], I know that you wish to act as if this is our first meeting on occasion, so I state that I am Xorinia.  By what name do you wish to be called during this conversation?"  It is a font of usefull info, but it clearly doesn't understand the concept of more than one intelligent being existing within one dimension.  Side note:  Its "free gift" to you in Ultima6 is the spell armegeddon, which kills everything in a dimension.  It doesn't do it out of any sinister intent, instead it realizes that the spell is worthless, and therefore should not have a price attached to it. :)

I guess the Arilou did a good job, then. ;)

I don't think the Orz are detached from humans at all. Rather, we've been detatched from them somehow. The Arilou insinuate that they've somehow made humans invisible to the Orz. The Orz can see our *many bubbles*, but they can't *smell* any other part of us. That *smell* is what allows the Orz to *know* of our existance. Even when the captain is face to face with the Orz, the Orz never know that he is *alive*, since he's odorless and tasteless. ;D

We are so *strange* because we act like all the other creatures, and are made of *many bubbles*, except we don't have that *smell* that the Orz care about so mucn. To them, we are not very different from the Slylandro probes that wander around the Galaxy. We're just some tastless precursor probe. :) So they smile, say hello, invite us into their party, and move on. Oh, yeah. And probes don't go around asking too many questions, or they get blown up.

I'd hate to think what would've happened, if the Orz knew what they were dealing with. They would've played with the captain until there was nothing left but a puddle of primordial ooze.  :-X

Sinister as they are the Orz don't seem to have immediate apocalyptic designs on the rest of the sector. The VUX are still around, after all, and they speak of *alliance parties* as though they were a common occurrence that they already knew all about (though if the Orz have a twisted time-sense, then who knows?)

Well, I will clarify something first.
1. In terms of Chinese, the characters doesn't change to reflect the tenses, but you can add certain terms to express the tenses. (I'm a native speaker, are you?)

2. The reason I mention Chinese here is that some of the guys weight the tenses too much. I would like to introduce the "tenseless" view.  :) As I said before, we don't care the tenses most of the time unless we really need them.



Like you said, it is just a game, so for players' convenience, the precursor translating unit is able to get the main idea, but lacks the knowledge. But for me, orzese is not that hard to understand. As long as you don't limit yourself in *tense*. You can understand them better.



In simple words, the creater might said that Orz is a single entity, but he didn't said that Orz doen't have sentient neighbors. And I quite doubt they will said so. For following versions may have the story about the Orz's neighbors. :)


Orz is not very hostile to human, but that's exactly what they answer, isn't it?



Well, currently, this kind of problems is identified as "Word sense disambiguation (WSD)". You can search the citeseer or google for literatures. :)




Learning doen't not necessery contains asking. For example, Supox learns from copy. And a human infant is too young to have language to ask.

*Campers* think *fingers* mean many, is it so? Orz is not Orz, Orz is *people energy*, it is *no function*.

1) My thought on this is that the ariloulaleelay (did I get that right) were originaly inhabitants of normal or *heavy* space and they moved to quasispace to avoid a feeding, unless of course you get rid of SC3 TOTALY at which time I have no clue. I am sure some aspects of sc3's overarching plot are valid but mostly not.
With the thought that the arilou were originaly from *heavy space* and if you considered quasispace to be equivalent to subspace then I can see the arilou being from above in a semi-literal sence.

6) Ever noticed that the arilou seem to interfear or play around alot?  Thats probobly what the *jumping in front* means.  The arilou either get there first or when the orz are doing something that the arilou are interested in the orz are interfeared with.

Yes, I'm a native speaker, and I know that Chinese can get along by expressing time without the use of tensed verbs.

Nonetheless, I doubt that Paul and Fred, when they were writing the Orz dialogue, thought that they would just make the Orz language slightly different from ours and have a tenseless structure similar to Chinese. The reason we *see* the unusual characterstics of Orz language and have all the other alien languages translated perfectly (or have the other aliens speak to us in English) is because Orz are meant to be seen as different. As an in-game explanation, the translator program can't deal with the Orz language because contextual clues point to the Orz actively disregarding the idea of tense and time, not just not having tenses in verbs. Notice that they don't ever include time-words when such time-words might be very necessary to our understanding, such as letting us know when the Taalo escaped to *Pretty Space* and whether or not they still exist or are extinct, something that's entirely unclear in the translation.

For whatever reason, the translating program you're using isn't putting in proper tenses in its English translation when doing so would be necessary for full understanding.



Yeah, but the reason the translation is messed up is not just because Paul and Fred thought it'd be cool to have a half-translated language at some point -- the Orz *are* supposed to be weird and supposed to think differently from humans, and their language reflects that. We're not meant to imagine that they have the same concept of time as we do and just have a langauge that can't express it; we're meant to see the problems with their language as indicative of their thought processes.




It's not quite certain what intentions the Orz have towards humans; it seems like they aren't what we'd call "hostile", but just because they don't feel hostile to us doesn't mean their plans for us are something we'd enjoy.

And like I said, I agree the Orz may have *cousins*; I do think, nonetheless, that the original points about the Orz being poor at grasping social concepts stand. They and their *cousins* aren't part of any society, as we understand it.



Yes, learning would have to start from imitation and detective work before asking for help could take place, since you need a common language to be able to communicate at all.

However, I think my point still stands; the Orz not only don't ask us about our custom of greeting, they don't seem to be trying to learn it from imitation either; they take no notice of our confused or dismayed reactions to their non sequiturs. Obviously my impression is subjective, but it's not really true that the Orz are "trying to learn"; most of the signs point to their not giving much of a damn.

What do you mean by "valid"? Paul and Fred have said before that absolutely none of SC3's overarching plot had anything to do with them. So if you consider the canon Star Control universe to be stuff that comes from the original creators, none of SC3 has any validity at all. Everything -- the Eternal Ones, the green Deep Children, the collapse of Hyperspace, and so on -- came out of the minds of the folks at Legend Entertainment with zero blessing from anyone involved in SC2.

Also, most SC2 fans seem to think that the SC3 creators were so careless and unthinking in the way they diverged from SC2's ideas that there's not much reason to give them any more respect than any other fans' ideas, and I would tend to agree.
My preference would be, when talking about SC2 itself, to leave out SC3 entirely, and only give SC3 explanations as one possible answer out of many for SC2's questions. If you think the Eternal Ones are a cool idea and an interesting possibility, you're free to speculate on them, but in my experience most SC2 fans won't feel that explanations involving the Eternal Ones have any greater weight than explanations that assume there's no such thing.

I've been fighting orz so much (i ask about androsynth almost everytime :D) I have come to conclud that *dancing* is death as in *Naghhh it is time for dancing i am clear*

There evil little bird fishs from Quasi Space!!!  :D :D :D

Sigh. I hope you've read more on your own by now, but just to clarify some things for your benefit:

We've mostly reached a consensus that *dancing* refers to death, or more specifically to ship-to-ship combat. (The general concept of death is probably better expressed by a different word, like *dissolving*.)

We've also reached a sort of consensus that Orz are probably not from QuasiSpace; the Arilou are from QS, and the Orz say that Arilou are from *above* and Orz are from *below*; in general we come upon a lot of references to Arilou and Orz being from different, opposite places.