The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

Is a place where France recently voted Non to the new law. Anyone on this forum French, or European at all for that matter? What is your opinion on this, how do you think it will play out in the long run? How do you feel about the union in itself? Did you prefer your old currency to the Euro?

I'll start it out by saying I doubt this will sink the union. It'll delay certain aspects, but I believe that the E.U is here to stay for good, and that in a few decades, our countries will merely be states, as it is on the other side of the pond.

Anyone feel like discussing, sharing, quoting pertinent information at eachother?

Semi-ignorant American perspective here. I don't think the many countries of Europe see eye to eye well enough to work as a bloc. Yet. Also, the eastern section needs to ramp up its economic muscle so as not to be a burden to the likes of Germany, England and France. And France may be a point of frustration, but they are the second largest economy in the region so their needs should be taken into account.

Well, I'm not sure I see the EU becoming much of a singular nation or superpower. Historically speaking, it is very rare that a superpower dies, and then comes back. Europe has already had her shot. So has the US, now it will probably be India or, if we are all very unlucky, China.

The EU and US have enjoyed some pretty nice golden eras, and we've grown fat on the spoils. I think you really need a base of modest, hard working, and intelligent individuals with a little bit of patriotism/cohesiveness. The two federations' obsessions with social programs, useless construction projects and entertainment, and our lack of foresight reminds me of the final period of Rome's history, just before her collapse.

I think the next superpower will come from a 3rd world nation with a focus on advancement. One that is less prone to blustering and more towards productive action, as compared to the old guards.

Sure. People have been saying this for centuries, and I think that in the end, one of them will be right about it; but so far, they were all wrong ;)

The EU only exists for a mere 40 years or so. Many people are older than that ;)

I'm Dutch... the dutch had a referendum like the French a few days after, and also voted "no".

In both cases, it's probably more a vote against the current governments, than against europe.

Imo the referendum wasn't a good idea, because the issue is too complex. In order to make a decision, you need to
* read all the 500 pages of the constitution
* understand all of them
* decide on a yes or no to the whole set of them.

Or, you can skip these steps and follow the voice of a leader, and follow his opinion, but what's the point of having a referendum then?

Those laws are already in place and as far as I know, those laws are going to stay. So, not much will change, really.

Wow. I'm with Synchris, except...

I see two possibilities: As energy becomes more expensive, the market will constrain people to use less. Either that or our exploitation of the weak is ratcheted up until it gets to be unbearable. Then the Umgah hits the fan.

Or, Antarctica collapses. The sea level rises. Then it's like the Umgah dropping the fan on Earth... at 0.9999999c. Har har har!

As for the EU, I don't think it's dead. The benefits are too great, and the real disadvantages too complex to be comprehended by enough people (heck, I forget what they are!)

"* read all the 500 pages of the constitution"

Hehe, I remember reading about the EU's super constitution in the economist a while back. I was sure they would have wisened up and downsized it by now. Usually, when lawmakers create legal documents that lengthy, it's because they don't want us little people to know how the game is played. Signer be aware.


"As energy becomes more expensive, the market will constrain people to use less."

Ok, alrighty, we'll just car pool and stuff. But what happens when the food grows scarce?


"either that or our exploitation of the weak is ratcheted up until it gets to be unbearable."

Then it's WW3. Now's the time to get some good shades.


"Or, Antarctica collapses. The sea level rises."

That alone is not very devastating. An ice age might be a little worse, though.


"As for the EU, I don't think it's dead. The benefits are too great, and the real disadvantages too complex to be comprehended by enough people"

The disadvantage is that the EU, to some extent, turns into the US, which most europeans probably would not like so much. But I don't think it'll go that far. The EU will probably just become a lucrative economic arrangement for many or a few.


US: Join me, and together we will rule this world with an iron fist.

EU: I'll never join you! You're destroying the future.

US: No, I am your future.

EU: NO. . .NO. . .that's not true. . .that's Impossible!

US: Search your corrupt constitution, you know it to be true.

hahahahaha...that was pretty good.

"hahahahaha...that was pretty good."

It was all too easy.

You underestimate the power of a rising sea level to inundate a coastline. Imagine the expense of putting a dike around, say, New York, let alone, say, Florida. If Antarctica collapses, Florida will need one very quickly.

"Imagine the expense of putting a dike around, say, New York, let alone, say, Florida."

Imagine the savings of not having to dish out for rich people, when ever a flood/hurricane takes out their 5th vacantion homes and they cash in on their flood insurance. No land, no rebuilding. And if you can guestimate where the new shoreline will eventually be, you can pull a lex luther and get miles of coastline, dirt cheap. Cities eating your ozone? Let's see how much crap they emit when they're at the bottom of the sea.

Not a valid answer. Imagine what submerging an industrial city would do to the ocean. Chemical plant here, nuclear power plant there, oil refinery there... It would make Exxon Valdez look like someone broke a can of WD-40.

Anyway, Florida would be almost entirely gone; and it isn't only occupied by rich folks who build expensive houses in precarious locations. Florida is one of the most populous states, after all.

Well alright, so it wouldn't be the cleanest coastline, but it'd be yours and you wouldn't have many neighbors to fight with.

Sheesh, always looking at things as half empty.

Nitpicking, but the E.U has never actually been a superpower. Certain european countries have been superpowers through the ages, but Europe as a whole has never stood united. Since it hasn't died, you argument doesn't quite hold up. Not that I think E.U is going to become  superpower, we have far too many leaders who just love to talk...

Personally, i think the setback might be a good thing. It'll delay the entry of new countries into the union for a while, which will give us a chance to raise the living standards in eastern europe



Well, there is an African Union as well... Who knows? they certainly have the resources, if they'd just stop fighting eachother, they could probably achieve a lot.

Interesting. I read in the news today that the G8 countries are set to cancel the debts to the 18 poorest countries in the world - a considerable number of which are African. This will definitely stimulate economic growth in the area.

Only if they were actively paying on that debt.  Lenders aren't going to instantly think they're a good risk just because another lender let them off.
It's mostly a hollow gesture, or at best a realization that GB can't squeeze blood from a turnip.

Well, as hollow gestures go, it's one of the better I've seen. Besides, clearing off debt is always good. The fact that officials in eight of the most industrialized and powerful nations in the world can actually agree on something worthwile for a change is worth noting, as well.


EDIT: Um, looks like you thought I meant GB, Great Britain, while what I did mean was G8. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G8

You're right; I misread the 8 as a B.  Substantailly more debt nullified, but still the same argument from me.

Then what SHOULD we be doing? Please answer in a different thread, entitled, "What you should be doing, since Doomsday is coming soon."

No, it's more like this:

"Wipe them out. . .all of them."


I believe in linear consciousness. Do you think you can kill me, Zan? You haven't been too successful in the past.

Plus, I think you admitted that humans have linear consciousness and therefore you believe it exists too. Kill yourself.

about the future of energy: It looks like we CAN make energy with fusion, which would bring us cheap energy for all eternity. I'm not too worried about that.

"Of course I can kill you."

Then do it. Now.


"about the future of energy: It looks like we CAN make energy with fusion,"

Has there been a recent scientific break in this area? If so, do tell. Energy sources/mediums make up the most important area of scientific research, that is, the one with the widest applications.

I was actually being serious about the energy source thing. A more powerful, smaller power plant could make for some very interesting things. Energy weapons, space ships, etc. I would be interested to know about any break-throughs in the realm of cold fusion.


I don't think I'm dead yet, Zan. Is that all you've got? Come on, kill me. Maybe you're not so powerful.  Perhaps you're just a kid with a keyboard after all.

We don't seem to be making any progress on cold fusion, but our hot fusion is progressing. If slowly.

I'm truly, utterly at loss as to how these posts even remotely fit under the headline "The European Union".

Seriously. If you stray too much off topic, start a new thread. Your opponent in the discussion will read that as well, have no doubt. This is getting really annoying.

Sorry, back on topic.

So I don't think the EU will become much more than an economic and somewhat weak diplomatic entity. I don't think europe any longer has the attitude necessary for superpowerdom. Relatively speaking, its people no longer have the drive and willingness to make some sacrifices, just as the people of the US no longer have these.

It may be better this way too. From a freedom standpoint, an individual has more power when he is a member of a smaller group. 1 tribesman of an 800 person tribe is much more important to his people, than 1 of 1,200,000,000 chinese citizens. If you think this is cold, think about it some more. If someone dies in the house next to you or in your apartment complex, isn't there a much better chance that you'll hear about it than if one of your countrymen dies someplace? The smaller the whole, the larger a part of it you are. Divided into smaller groups, each one of you has more of an ability to customize your goverment in a way that can meet your specific needs. You don't need to worry as much about pork, in fighting, or unreasonable self serving voting blocks and lobbies. The smaller and less powerful the nation, the easier it is for its people to manage it and protect their rights. The more powerful the nation, the greater the corruption.

Not exactly Cold Fusion energy production, but here are 3 slashdot articles on a recent experiment that fuses deuterium at close to room temperature with the intent of producing a particle stream:
http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/27/1930218&tid=232&tid=126&tid=14
http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/28/1518226&tid=232&tid=14
http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/06/07/1635251&tid=126&tid=14

I have firm faith that big empires will collapse eventually. And smaller countries go through changes. Most Chinese dynasties lasted for about 300 years, and Rome held on for close to a millennia (and much longer if you take the Byzantium side into account). The Soviet Union didn't even make a century. The United States is a little under 250 years old and the EU a few decades if you count from the economical organizations it is based on.

The technological and social changes of the last 100 years have never occurred before. Examples: complete dependency of one country on the other for energy, the sheer number of people on earth, extreme urbanization, fast global communication, globalizing economies (almost all the stuff in my house is imported from abroad, for example). The world is a *lot* smaller than it used to be, even if many people don't realize this. Therefore, you can't simply assume the past will repeat itself. Oops, I forgot global terror. So, a state of complete "independence" is gone.