The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release => General UQM Discussion => Topic started by: Death 999 on July 21, 2005, 07:21:06 pm



Title: Choose your path
Post by: Death 999 on July 21, 2005, 07:21:06 pm
You are in the same position as the Ur-quan just before the first doctrinal war. What are you calling for?


Title: Re: Choose your path
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on July 21, 2005, 08:26:45 pm
"Try to get over it, start a new Sentient Milieu"

And wipe out the Dnyarri ofcourse.


Title: Re: Choose your path
Post by: Master_azlak on July 21, 2005, 08:28:40 pm
"Try to get over it, start a new Sentient Milieu"

And wipe out the Dnyarri ofcourse.

looks like you have writed just what I was thinking.



Title: Re: Choose your path
Post by: Deep-Jiffa on July 21, 2005, 08:29:51 pm
"Try to get over it, start a new Sentient Milieu"

And wipe out the Dnyarri ofcourse.

looks like you have writed just what I was thinking.



I am enlightened after all  ;D


Title: Re: Choose your path
Post by: Dillrat on July 21, 2005, 09:52:13 pm
I think id go wipe out the Zoq Fot and the Pik in one swoop while forming an alliance with the drudge.


Title: Re: Choose your path
Post by: Mr._Jiggles on July 21, 2005, 10:29:33 pm
I'd have to go the Kohr-Ah way, unless my Taalo friends came back whacked me on the head with a hammer and gave us the "Shame on you" talk  ;D


Title: Re: Choose your path
Post by: harth1026 on July 22, 2005, 03:37:08 am
I would save the Zerbranky from the Zoqfotpik. 


Title: Re: Choose your path
Post by: Halleck on July 22, 2005, 04:40:12 am
Put the sentients on a ringworld, because ringworlds are cool.


Title: Re: Choose your path
Post by: Death 999 on July 22, 2005, 05:05:28 pm
Yeah. To elaborate on that option, the reason they'll never get off is becuse you can't mine on a Ringworld, you just get down to the scrith and either can't dig or get sucked into space. There are no spare material resources to speak of.


Title: Re: Choose your path
Post by: Mr._Jiggles on July 23, 2005, 02:30:35 am
wth is a ringworld, are you speaking of a gas planet. Or sumthing like jupiter errrr......  ???


Title: Re: Choose your path
Post by: Kohr-Ah Death on July 23, 2005, 05:21:22 am
a planet with rings around it. DUUUHHH, have you ever seen pitch black or hitchhikers guide to the galaxy?


Title: Re: Choose your path
Post by: Novus on July 23, 2005, 10:14:45 am
a planet with rings around it. DUUUHHH, have you ever seen pitch black or hitchhikers guide to the galaxy?
*Bzzzt* Wrong, but thank you for playing. A ringworld (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringworld) is a huge ring (roughly 1 au in radius) built around a star. Ringworlds are generally assumed to be designed for habitation.


Title: Re: Choose your path
Post by: Kohr-Ah Death on July 23, 2005, 03:26:22 pm
what you you said there brings halo into my mind for some reason, but alot bigger.


Title: Re: Choose your path
Post by: Halleck on July 24, 2005, 03:45:09 am
Yes, because Halo ripped off Larry Niven. ;D
(so did Sc2 :P)

Acutally, I think the concept of a ringworld was around before the novel was written, but he sure as hell popularized it.


Title: Re: Choose your path
Post by: Captain_Smith on July 24, 2005, 04:38:09 am
I'll admit I didn't know what was meant by "ring world" until it was explained.

If you want to go further into sci-fi vernacular, the Star Trek series (old, new, whatever) refers to them as Dyson's Spheres when they've appeared in the shows.


Title: Re: Choose your path
Post by: Halleck on July 24, 2005, 06:44:53 am
Ringworlds are not the same thing as dyson spheres. Dyson spheres are theoretical structures that are built to surround an entire star, trapping nearly all it's energy. A ringworld is best thought of as a slice of a dyson sphere, which forms a ring around a star but does not enclose it.


Title: Re: Choose your path
Post by: Death 999 on July 25, 2005, 04:42:05 pm
The advantage of a ringworld over a dyson sphere is that you can spin it to make gravity. The disadvantage is that you need some unbelieveably strong material to hold it together. It would be some 100 times stronger than the strongest material we've ever seen.
Niven calls it 'scrith'.


Title: Re: Choose your path
Post by: Halleck on July 25, 2005, 05:20:31 pm
The same is true of a dyson sphere- though in that case, it actually would be more plausible and practical to build a highly dense sphere out of individual collectors instead of a continuous structutre.


Title: Re: Choose your path
Post by: Deus Siddis on July 25, 2005, 05:59:46 pm
How do you hold the atmosphere in place on a Dyson's Sphere?


Title: Re: Choose your path
Post by: VOiD on July 25, 2005, 06:33:25 pm
How do you hold the atmosphere in place on a Dyson's Sphere?
Um, since Dyson's Sphere would be built around a star, there wouldn't be any atmosphere to hold, right? Or am I misunderstanding something?


Title: Re: Choose your path
Post by: Austin on July 25, 2005, 07:11:15 pm
Wait is a dyson's sphere for habitation pr energy collection.  Because if it is for habitation Deus_Siddis has a point. Unlike a ring you couldn't generate gravity to keep the atomosphere in place around the edges.  And you couldn't flood the sphere with atmosphere, many gases namely oxygen which would be require for human settlers are flameable.... A star is one big ass spark... boom!


Title: Re: Choose your path
Post by: Deus Siddis on July 25, 2005, 08:32:02 pm
Oh, it is not a habitat? So then why would it need centrifical artificial grav, anyway? I assume that ring worlds have walls on the edges of their inside surface, to prevent the atmosphere from flying sideways into space. But for a sphere, I don't think this method would give the poles much of an atmosphere. If it is just for energy collection, you have to wonder why anyone would expend such great resources to encompass an entire sun from a considerable radius, just to catch some rays. 8)


Title: Re: Choose your path
Post by: FalconMWC on July 25, 2005, 11:31:43 pm
I wonder how practical a dyson sphere is EVEN if you could make it.

First: There has to be a better way of collecting energy - even if it means going to other stars. If at the time life can't go to other stars, then what the heck are they doing covering up one of their only means of light and heat?

Second:  (spoken from a person who does not know that much about the sun) How high do sun flares go? Even if there were no sun flares, what is the average degrees of searing heat that far above the sun? (the sphere itself is about ten miles off - max?) Also - what kind of stresses would this structure have to take while its hot? That is a incredible/impossible material.


Title: Re: Choose your path
Post by: Culture20 on July 26, 2005, 02:13:53 am
Dyson Spheres are generally described as being the radius of Earth's distance from the Sun.  Mass could be localized in places on the sphere's interior to create gravity wells (comparitively little bumps of atmosphere, water, and dirt).


Title: Re: Choose your path
Post by: Chrispy on July 26, 2005, 02:58:19 am
Which brings up another problem, what do you make it out of, and where do you get it from?


Title: Re: Choose your path
Post by: Kohr-Ah Death on July 26, 2005, 03:38:41 am
The advantage of a ringworld over a dyson sphere is that you can spin it to make gravity. The disadvantage is that you need some unbelieveably strong material to hold it together. It would be some 100 times stronger than the strongest material we've ever seen.
Niven calls it 'scrith'.[/
i]

then

The same is true of a dyson sphere- though in that case, it actually would be more plausible and practical to build a highly dense sphere out of individual collectors instead of a continuous structutre.


Title: Re: Choose your path
Post by: Halleck on July 26, 2005, 04:28:00 am
Um... Death 999 said "The advantage of a ringworld over a dyson sphere is that you can spin it to make gravity. The disadvantage [of a ringworld over a dyson sphere] is that you need some unbelieveably strong material to hold it together. "

and i said "The same is true of a dyson sphere." As in, you would also need unbelieveably strong material.

What's the big catch there? What are you trying to show?


Title: Re: Choose your path
Post by: Kohr-Ah Death on July 26, 2005, 05:02:27 am
nvm i'll delete the post if you dont get it ::)


Title: Re: Choose your path
Post by: Deus Siddis on July 26, 2005, 05:14:03 am
"Ringworlds are not the same thing as dyson spheres. Dyson spheres are theoretical structures that are built to surround an entire star, trapping nearly all it's energy. A ringworld is best thought of as a slice of a dyson sphere, which forms a ring around a star but does not enclose it. "

So then are they the same sort of thing, or do they have different purposes, like artificial environment versus energy collection?


"Dyson Spheres are generally described as being the radius of Earth's distance from the Sun."

That seems too big, where would you ever get enough material? Maybe if it was around the orbit of venus (which could be less hot if it had a different atmosphere).


"Which brings up another problem, what do you make it out of, and where do you get it from?"

You make it out of something really strong and really cheap, and you get it where ever you can find it (anywhere and everywhere). :-\


"What's the big catch there? What are you trying to show?"

I guess he's answering Chrispy's question with your and Death_999's words. I'm not sure if it's correct, though. Does a ring world need so much centrifical force to hold in its atmosphere, that it rips itself apart unless crafted of unrealistically strong alloys?


Title: Re: Choose your path
Post by: Kohr-Ah Death on July 26, 2005, 05:26:31 am
is there any better pictures of the dyson sphere or the ringworld?

it'd be kinda cool to have a nice picture for my desktop


Title: Re: Choose your path
Post by: Halleck on July 26, 2005, 07:14:12 am
Dunno, there must be cool ones from star trek. Also, wikipedia had a ringworld picture on the ringworld page. Also, I recall seeing pictures on the sci fi scale website.

EDIT: Ringworld: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/58/Ringworld1024x768.jpg


Title: Re: Choose your path
Post by: Megagun on July 26, 2005, 11:51:39 am
Whoa, seems like a lot of us don't know what it's like to wear an Excrutiator for months on end... 8 people vote for "try to get over it"! :P

(I can actually sort of guess why the Kzer-Za chose what they chose for, really..)


Title: Re: Choose your path
Post by: Art on July 27, 2005, 11:36:22 am
Quote
So then are they the same sort of thing, or do they have different purposes, like artificial environment versus energy collection?

The main point of either a Dyson sphere or a Ringworld was originally that people pointed out almost all of the energy from our Sun is "wasted", shooting right past the planet Earth out into deep space where it does no one any good (except that maybe some alien living on Algol 3 can see it as a star, make a wish on it, use it to calculate his horoscope or whatever.) Even if we lived on all the solid planets in the Solar System the vast majority, over 90%, of the Sun's light would be leaking right past us.

The amount of energy that reaches the Earth from the Sun is already tremendous by human standards, remember, and is the ultimate source of nearly all the energy we use in our civilization (excluding nuclear power), so can you imagine what we could do if we used 100% of the Sun's output rather than 0.001% like we do now? All those projects that seem like they'd take ridiculous amounts of energy -- like building a machine that could warp space and let us travel faster than light, or whatnot -- might not be quite so impossible then.

As far as plausibility, I remember reading somewhere that if you took all the mass of the objects currently orbiting the Sun and squished them together (mostly the mass from the gas giants) you'd have enough mass to, theoretically, make a Dyson sphere a few miles in thickness, although the thing would never hold together.

In theory a Dyson sphere doesn't get any hotter at any one point on the inside than Earth does (after all, think of Earth as just one tiny fragment of a Dyson sphere built at 1 AU's distance) and for something the size of a Dyson sphere the comparative mass of an Earth-sized "bump" would, I imagine, be negligible.

The question is what you're doing with all the energy you're collecting from the rest of the Dyson sphere -- how you're using it and/or safely dissipating it in such a way that the whole damn thing doesn't vaporize and kill you all.

By the way, on the Ur-Quan poll -- I don't think any of us would actually say that we'd prefer to go on a genocidal frenzy after that kind of situation. I think one of the strengths of the game's story, though, is that it drives home that:

1) We really do have absolutely no idea what the Ur-Quan went through, a kind of suffering of a *scale* that takes traumatic human events like the African slave trade or the Holocaust and goes beyond them (total slavery, mental and physical, for *millennia*; whole species the victims of genocide that they were forced to carry out by their own hands), and

2) Even if we did, the Ur-Quan are a different species and inherently different from us, and we can't really understand them. We're a social species with built-in, instinctive responses that make us feel empathy for others who are suffering, to feel safer in groups than alone, to want to sacrifice ourselves for a common cause. The Ur-Quan had none of that. Living in an organized civilization with laws and ranks and jobs and things is as hard for them as sitting on an egg immobile for six months on the Antarctic ice shelf would be for us.

So yeah, the Ur-Quan were crazy. Bleeding batshit insane. But you can't really *blame* them, can you?


Title: Re: Choose your path
Post by: VOiD on July 27, 2005, 01:14:11 pm
All those projects that seem like they'd take ridiculous amounts of energy -- like building a machine that could warp space and let us travel faster than light,
...or building a Dyson sphere. I imagine that would take a whole lot of energy (not to mention quite a bit of raw materials).

By the way, on the Ur-Quan poll --
Hey, hey, Art, cool down, will ya? Don't go ruining another perfectly good discussion by winning it.


Title: Re: Choose your path
Post by: Novus on July 27, 2005, 03:45:29 pm
can you imagine what we could do if we used 100% of the Sun's output rather than 0.001% like we do now? All those projects that seem like they'd take ridiculous amounts of energy -- like building a machine that could warp space and let us travel faster than light, or whatnot -- might not be quite so impossible then.
Actually, the Earth only accounts for one 2 500 000 000th of the surface area of a Dyson sphere at the same distance (assuming my calculations are correct). In other words, we only get 0.00000004% of the Sun's radiation (and that's assuming we absorb 100% of every ray that hits Earth!). We are talking about ridiculous amounts of energy here, not just plain huge.


Title: Re: Choose your path
Post by: Deus Siddis on July 27, 2005, 04:07:33 pm
I heard a scientist theorize that to "warp" space enough to move a craft to alpha centauri in a reasonable time frame, it would take all the energy the sun uses in it's entire lifetime. That is a more ridiculous amount of energy.


Title: Re: Choose your path
Post by: Death 999 on July 27, 2005, 04:35:21 pm
Well, only using the Alcubierre drive. If you're content to merely coast along at 0.7c, it will take a much more reasonable amount of energy.

I agree with Art though. Is there a way for me to zap a poll entry and let those people re-vote?