The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

What do you think about this game? Did you play it? How did you like it?
I really liked the game and it was that game that brought me here in the first place. It's on OK game and it is a strategy so it is different then the SC2. I also have on idea: implementing SC1 in The Ur-Quan Masters. I don't know is this possible, thou 'couse I don't know if the source cod was released.  It would be very interesting seeing the game again and this time a little less confusing in the full game.

The SC1 source code is apparently lost (which is surprising considering the number of different systems it was ported to; surely someone must have a backup somewhere!), although large parts of it appear in UQM (with improvements). SC2 Supermelee is essentially an updated SC1 Melee, so the only interesting part is the strategy aspect of the full game. Without source code, reconstructing it accurately would be somewhat time-consuming at least.

After playing UQM through, I "found" a copy of SC1 lying
around. I installed it, not an easy thing to do on
a Linux box, and played it a couple of times. I'm
not sure if it was because I was running it in an emulator
or the game design, but the space battles were slow
and ... not smooth. Fun, yes, but basically just
a virtual board game + super melee.

Zeep-Eeep: was this the DOS version, or genesis? The genesis version is known to run much slower than the PC.

As for me, I love Star Control 1. In my opinion it's one of the best titles available for genesis, along with a few other classics like vectorman.

It's only really fun when you have a human opponent... the computer can be too predictable.

Hi. SC1 is the best! I loved SC2, but SC1 has so much more replay value.

Cheat= hold Left during 'entering new star cluster' screen. This gives you 30 precursor items instead of 10.

Where can I get an emulator for my computer for sc1?

Or, if anyone knows any more cheats.

But... you don't need to cheat to get lots of precursor artifacts. Just make a custom map and ask for lots of artifacts.

It's not a masterpiece like SC2, but it's definitely a good game, and I wish they had kept the strategy part in SC2. It holds a special place in my heart, because I'm pretty sure it was my very first "real" (non-educational game).

I don't recall there being a custom map generator on the genesis version. As far as I know, the cheat listed above is the only way to flood the system with artifacts on the genesis version.

There we go: the PC version had one.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but surely it's easy enough to recreate SC1, should someone have the time and interest?  Besides the starmap generation and percentages, everything else is very no brainer stuff.  The meat of the game, the combat system, is already readily available.

You state that it would be a 'no-brainer' "besides the starmap generation and percentages" which I take it you mean maps and stats... I.E. the entire game mechanics would have to be reconstructed through observation or reverse engineering, because the source code was lost.

So yes. Other than completely reconstructing the game mechanics from scratch and writing all-new interface code, it would be a cakewalk.

I didn't mean it wouldn't be TIME-CONSUMING.  I only meant that there are no mechanics that are truly mind-bending to program.  (Since the rules are about a simplistic as a board game, if memory serves.  There aren't gonna be complex algorithims for whether or not Ship X manages to destroy Colony Y, it happens in a set number of turns.)

It's not like having to program a physics engine with collision detection and complex player inputs and uses of graphics.

So yes, I'd venture to say, compared to that, it would be a cakewalk. ;p

Again, I haven't played SC1 since the Genesis days, so my memory may be fuzzier than I initially thought.  But I don't REMEMBER the strategy game using any complex-to-program rules, or really, much of anything at all that can't be reasoned from observation.

Except, of course, the formulas used to generate the maps, as I mentioned.

read here:
http://uqm.stack.nl/forum/index.php?topic=2635.msg33563#msg33563

You could possibly get one here: http:\\www.zophar.net
and remember, downloading roms from the internet is illegal ;D

I got my hands on the DOS version. I was running either DOSemu
or DOSbox at the time.

Hey all, I just read this forum and wanted you all to know I too love the idea of the strategy game.  I actually started a remake of the strategy section about 3 months ago!  I have the interfacec taken care of as well as the general shell of the game.  I am currently working on the map generation.  It is proving to be more difficult than I originally thought b/c I went into the project wtih the goal of making two changes:

1) The map won't be 3d or rotating (I know it was cool but this will save a crap load of time and provide the same strategy elements).

2) There will be 2-4 players supported.  To clarify, the strategy portion will be up to 4 players.... the melee combat will still take place between exactly two players.  The idea here is simple actually... as I'm sure everyone knows any randomly generated sc1 map has a central star which combines the two arms or spirals of the galaxy... this is still the case however there can be up to four spirals/arms.  The top and bottom spiral/arm are always generated for players 1 and 2.  The left is generated if the game is set to 3 or 4 players (for player 3 to start in) and the right is only generated if the game is set to 4 players (for the fourth player to start in).

With all that being said,  I have kept the same prices/build time/destroy time/income levels for everything to try to keep it as close to the original as possible.  I recently moved to Atlanta from Columbia, SC and started a new job so I haven't worked on it in about 3 weeks.  I was looking through some code last night when I decided to post something about it here today.  I am going to try to get in touch with the timewarp team to see if they would be interested in using their combat system for that part of the game.  It didn't occur to me until now that that may be an option.  I actually started making this game before I knew timewarp existed....  Anyways, their game is very well done and looks great as well.  It would be nice to use it for the battles since that is the hardest part to program and I don't have as much time anymore after starting this new job in Atl.

I'll check back here soon to see if anyone has any questions/ideas for me.

btw-I'm using C# to code the game in vs.net 2005.

Have you looked through the old SC1 threads? There were some others building such a thing, and I presented a few ideas on map-generating algorithms; they were well-received, so I suspect they might be good ones.

I will check it out!  I may redo it if you had a better idea than mine.  I actually have all the stars generating fine, randomly (with exception of mid star), and not too close together.  The complicated part is connecting them all, or determining which ones can travel directly to which ones.... and then making sure that there is a path from each to the middle.

That is precisely the problem I addressed. I didn't make my algorithm for more than 2 players, but it should be extended easily.

http://uqm.stack.nl/forum/index.php?topic=1111.45

I'm just finishing a course in Data Structures and Algorithms, and we had quite a few methods for creating trees, graphs, searching them and whatever else you want. I hate this course.

However (unless you took it yourself), I can help you with algorithms for computer AI to choosing paths, for example. I also think creating the star map might be even easier then you'd think if you were (are?) using a tree data structure or graphs (a more formal approach to what Death999 suggests in his algorithm).

I have an idea too (had it for a long time, but haven't tried it out yet). The idea is that you subdivide your area in ever finer pieces, and update paths between the stars each time you refine the map.

Step 1 (start):
create 4 points on the boundaries of the map, and create 2 triangles.

Step 2 (iterative):
Each triangle has a certain area, calculate that value for all triangles. Choose randomly one of the available triangles, weighted by their area.

Step 3.
Choose a random point inside your selected triangle. Note that you can choose 2 legs of the triangle, and choose randomly a point on those two. Then use the point in-between the two. In addition, you have to do additional scaling to get a uniform choice (because the legs are not parallel) - you've to take the root of the chosen position, the position being scaled between 0 and 1, if I remember correctly and hadn't made a mistake.

Step 4.
Reconnect the new point inside the triangle to the points of the neighbouring triangles. It may turn out, that one of the existing sides of the triangle you are in, is pretty long, compared to what would happen if you'd delete that side and connect your point to the opposite corner of the neighbouring triangle. You've to add/delete the sides to get the short ones.

Repeat this over and over, and I think you'll get a nice map, with shortest paths. If you want to try this, let me know the result please. In any case, I'm going to try this some day myself.

at first I ran it on dosbox.. but then i accidently ran it straight from winXP pro and it ran without any issues (that I can recall) with 0 emulation...

As for reconstructing the game in Ur Quan, I think its possible and should be done...
The original game was so simple, I think I can write down most of the rules and info from memory (and the rest can be gotten by running the original game). All it has to do is call on the current super melee system for its space battles, the rest would be easy...

Thanks for the link death....  also the rest of you for helping.  Yeah, that data structures and algs class was a pain but important... I took it I think 4 or 5 years ago.

I think I am gonna try death's method it looks real good.  I will post a screenshot sometime this weekend (would right now but am at work) of a randomly generated galaxy w/ my current alg.  I will make sure to post a shot of 2, 3, and 4 player galaxies.  Once you see that it will be obvious why the clever triangle method mentioned wouldn't work for me.  I have the 4 players starting somewhere on each edge of the screen (and must go thru mid to get to each other), not the 4 corners of the screen..... also I plan on getting everything fully up and running before I even consider implementing any AI.  I will probably try for network support before AI as well.  I really am more interested in being able to play 2-4 humans in the strategy game.....

Thanks all, keep throwing me any ideas u come up with and look back throughout the weekend for the screenshots!

Adam

Here is a nice implementation of the Kruskal and Prim algorithms with spanning trees - a maze.
If you think of it, it's exactly the same approach as the one you should take for a star map.

there is no need to re-invent the wheel.. all the algorithms, data structures, theories - and heck - even readily-made code.

http://www.cut-the-knot.org/ctk/Mazes.shtml

I recommend you move a bit down to the second applet (the big maze), click the arrows to size it down to 5x5 or so, then it's easier to visualize a starmap out of it.

all you have to do to make it random is assign different weights each time. it's also easy to cancel out dead ends.

good luck!