The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

There's a preview of the Ilwrath music available at The Pages of Now and Forever (www.star-control.com).  It's in mp3 format and it just rocks.  I can't wait to get my hands on more of this stuff and listen to it all the time! (no doubt, when I play Civ3 and MOO3, I'll listen to starcontrol music :) ).

I just listened to it.  It's quite nice!

I hate to be a nay sayer, especially to someone as hallowed as an Original SC2 Music Composer, but.. This is bad.  Not bad as in a bad song or anything, because it is actually pretty cool and groovy.  However it does not fit the Ilwrath at ALL.. Those happy synths and the loss of that lovely pounding effect to the bassline make this seem more like a ZoqFot theme than an Ilwrath.  At least, that's my opinion.  

I just hope we can elect to use the original soundtrack in UQM?  Even better:  Can we pick-and-choose songs to use the original, and others to use the remix?

 

you raise a very interesting point, quetzalcoatl:

how does one try to top on music that has taken on a personality of its own?

when the remix project started up, the idea was to take the original music from the game, modernize and remix, and bring something different to the end result for the 10th anniversary.

i think of the guys in the group, i'm the fanatic as far as trying to keep things as close to the originals as possible.  this isn't necessarily the best perspective to take, but it's the one i'm stuck with. (:

the characters in the original game were lovable, adorable, could be related to, etc.  they had good content, story, background, converstations, and the like.  the music that went with the characters had equally as much, if not more, personality.

the challenge for all of us has been to try and take those original themes and do something a litte different with them.  the original ilwrath theme was raw, almost industrial, and relatively hard.  i loved those qualities of the original.

(interesting point to note: the new popular style of music at the time picking up mainstream momentum, which eventually died later, was that of industrial.  where is Ministry now?  they were sure all over the place back then tho ...)

when i heard a copy of the remix, i was able to instantly envision the ilwrath fitting into the context of the music.  for some reason, it seems to have clicked.

some of the remixes are going to strike nerves with people in good ways, some in bad.   i've heard rumors that the possibility of using the old and/or new music will be available in the game.

i almost hate to say it, but for the most part, the remixed music isn't going to be exactly like the originals.  i can think of a couple that are dramtically different off the top of my head.  the tools of today are vastly superior to the four-channel mod-makers of 1992.  please bear in mind that we are remixing, not just cleaning up.  it's an exciting project, and hopefully the end result will bring out good tracks that touch on the magic of the original game.

it's still tough to compete with nostalgia i hear you loud and clear. (:

I enjoyed the Ilwrath track, and I see where you  might decide it's too happy to represent the Ilwrath.  But on the other hand, there is a deep beat beneath it that does pretty well for them.  I'm gonna have to abstain from the vote on this one.  But not from the conversation on it, of course :-)

I can't wait to listen to this while conversing with an Ilwrath somewhere in deep space  ;D

...
It was probably because I was 10 or 12 when I first got into SC2, but this game was so... atmospheric. The music and sounds, of course, played a pivotal role in this. The addition of echoes and reverbs here surely will heighten this sense.

I'm just wondering... how will this music be played? Will it be generated real time just like the MODs of old, or will they simply be played like MP3s or WAVs?

The reason I wonder is that... well, I don't know if anyone remembers this. As a conversation sequence ended, and the game was about to return to Navigation or Battle, the last instrument of the last note the MOD song would be played, and then fade out, the result of the nature of the MOD music. It was sort of a neat transition from the Conversation mode that I remember as distinctly SC2, if it was intended to be a transition at all. This "feature" would be lost if it was not a real time generated song. But alas, I am grateful that this amazing undertaking (the whole re-release shmeal)  is happening at all  ;D

As one who've done my share of remixes, I can tell you this about remixing:

It's not very easy =)

You tend to forget / ignore what you were trying to do in the first place. All you want to do is to fix this, make that sound cooler, add these tricks that you just learned, and use that sound you just found. Usually, a remixed song doesn't sound "real", because you're trying to change it into something it's not.

Of course, sometimes it really works out. All the revamps of classic Nintendo songs in Super Smash Bros. Melee for the Gamecube is a good example.

Personally I kinda liked the Ilwrath remix but it's not really what I had expected, and there's a risk it won't fit in the game. I'd like to hear another, less breakbeaty version just for comparison.

Bassline in the remix is too weak. It's not scary as the original.  :-/

I agree that the original Ilwrath music was more sinister, but I think this music manages to capture that while also conveying the absurd religiosity of the Ilwrath (that everyone seems to be forgetting about).

Again, I'm VERY impressed with the remix.

Yep.  This is a good track, just - not for the Ilwrath...

I agree, you guys shouldn't have stuck with the original as closely as possible.  But IMO the best result is achieved through changing and modernizing the sound (and even the music itself) while keeping in touch with the original "feel"... and it's this latter part where the ilwrath remix kind of.. well, fails, IMO.

As I posted on the PoNF, I think the hip-hop beats (spider-rap?  ;D) and those "ethereal"-sounding synth pads are quite inappropriate for the Ilwrath... but that's just me.

And btw I believe SC2 was released a bit before industrial really started to get big, haha... but the good thing about it was that the music in the game had nothing to do with what was popular or mainstream at the time.  It had industrial (Chmmr), techno (Starbase.. kinda), metal (Druuge), stuff that sounded like Carribean music (Pkunk), ambient (Kohr-Ah), and a myriad of cool sounding tunes that can't even be grouped into some kind of popular genre.  I hope that the new remixed soundtrack doesn't fall into the trap of making it sound 'modern' and 'popular' - the first example that comes to mind is those hip-hop beats that have infested almost every genre of popular music in the decade since the release of SC2.  They CAN work in a SC2-ish context, but... not for the Ilwrath, alas.

Just my $0.02.

I like the remix too.. listened it many times again and again, etc :) We'll probably let the user to specify what music he wants track by track later on, to ensure best possible playing experience as music is very important part of that.

It's nice to notice that the sneak peek of new music generate lots of discussion.  

The way of doing music have changed quite much in the last 10 years. 10 years ago it was possible to use only 4 channels - now it is possible to do what you want without thinking the limitations. That's why I, and other remixers, are not just cleaning the old tracks. The new remixes try to catch the old feeling *but* they are different from the original ones, some more, some less.  

New music is released as optional 'module'. You can download it as an extra if you want. That means that you can choose what you want to listen; listen your favourite original tracks, new remixes or even use your favourite artists music! So the choice is totally yours!

I am really happy to notice that you still love our old music! Hopefully we can make something different - like we did 10 years ago - this time also!  

And yes, we surprised you. We will do it again. Wait and see.

- Riku (Composer of Ilwrath remix)  8)

Optional?

Do you mean as a separate download, or included in the release, and then player can choose from: old / 3do / new ?

my understanding is that the remixes will be available as a seperate download package (because all those mp3s together will actually be fairly large) and there will be the option to choose which songs you want played.

there were very few songs modified for the 3DO but i would imagine that the few that were will be available as well (when the remix thing started, i got copies of the three-dee-oh tunes and was extremely impressed with the quality improvement of the few songs that were touched upon).

riku is absolutely correct.  ya'll're in for quite a few surprises. (:

in response to vilerancour, i was a freshman in high school when ministry's Psalm 69 was at the height of its popularity in 1991.  starcon2 was released a year later.  boam .  :D

I think we'll decide that kind of stuff at later stage (after new resource system has been implemented).. inclusion with the release depends how big increase in size they would cause, and such, but too early to worry about them for now :)

Hehe... I was at 6th grade then, so you're probably right.  8)

I find it amazing that anyone can see fit to carry on a critical discussion with people MAKING A FREE GAME FOR THEM, without at least sugarcoating it a bit. More power to the developers if they don't mind it, but sheesh, when you are the beneficiary, you do not get dispense criticism as an equal. Ideally.

In response to Stubbs' comment, it's about time someone said that  ;D I find myself growing impatient and wanting to know some sort of concrete release date because this is really driving me nuts, but I fight myself remembering that it is indeed a favor done for me (and everyone else here) for free. If I haven't said it enough times, THANK YOU to all that are working on this project. If there's anything I can do... I mean actions speak louder than words.

But yeah. I asked this earlier, but I'll ask it again. What will the format of the music (new remixes and originals) be? Will it be generated real-time like the original PC game's MOD music, or will it be a WAV/MP3 type file?

Question #2: Was the 3DO version's music generated real-time?

Format for PC music should the user choose it is still the original .mod's.  Format for the 3DO and remixed music is and will be .ogg.

The 3DO's music was in a strangely compressed AIFF format, not generated real-time but played back.

The original PC version of the Ilwrath music was quite boring, ringing the same tune over and over again. This remix just doesn't seem to have anything old in it, but it's still better.

No! 4ch music is the right music! It needs skill to make good 4ch music, and that talent must *not* be discarded, or I start *dancing*!

I personally love the Ilwrath remix, but not as an Ilwrath tune. I can imagine The Matrix lobby scene with that music playing in the background, but it just doesn't seem to fit with my image of the dill-rats

[reposted from my comments on TPoNF]

I have to agree that the new tune doesn't fit the Ilwrath as well as the old. (I realize this is an optional patch you're working on, but I think y'all still want to match the music to the alien, yes?)

The Ilwrath are spiders. More specifically, a pulp-comic arachnophobe's nightmare of a spider. They're comic-opera evil, but they should exude the same sort of creepy feeling as a tarantula crawling up the inside of your pant leg.

Spiders are not frenetic; they're not hyper. They are extemely patient. They don't skitter around, they don't make any unnecessary movement. They spin their webs, then perch, waiting for prey to tumble into them. (Okay, some spiders aren't like this, but the spiders the ilwrath are imaged after are-- Ilwrath are based on a literary archetype of spiders more than a taxonomical average of them).

Anyway, with this in mind, one can see why the older version sits better as "Ilwrath Music" than the newer. The older tune's more syncopated sound, with the the notes more clipped and distinct, gives a feeling of a spider's movement-- individual legs twitching, mandibles clicking-- than the "smoother," more blended-together sound of the newer track. When one watches a spider walk across its web, it seems more of a syncopated action than, say, the movement of a mammal, which generally looks more fluid.

Equally more fitting is the older track's "bursts" of rhythmic sounds, which seem to match the spider's habit of remaining perfectly still, then moving all at once in a burst. The newer track's more even rhythm tracks lose that feeling.

Anyway, the new track's overall "smoother" sound would be more fitting for a cat burglar (or even a prowling cat) than an ilwrath-- the syncopated and clipped sounds of the older track capture a certain feeling of skittering, insectile movement better than the smoother, more even sounds of the new one.

please bear in mind that when you're dealing with a cult classic like this, the music becomes a part of the personality of the race in question, and vice versa.

to be bluntly honest with you, the original ilwrath music has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the race in question.  it was not designed for it, it was not composed specifically for the ilwrath, nothing.  it was a theme written for the pool of songs to be submitted to the game. (:  in fact, if you take a close look at the credits for the original .MOD song, it was written as a concept song for the Ur-Quan Kzer-Za.

having said that, ten years later the music played along with the Ilwrath on your screen telling you all of the nasty things they're going to do with your entrails are so integral a part of the race itself that there isn't a single thing that could change that for most players and listeners.

this is a remix project.  we are not cleaning up the original mods, we are remixing.

some of the remix themes will be very similar to the originals, some will be moderately close, some will use the original theme a little bit, and at least one thus-far is completely different from the original.

not a single one of the remixes will make everyone happy. (:  in fact, some might not make anyone happy for that matter.  hard to improve on what people perceive to be perfection, in spite of the fact that had it not been tied to a game, the tune would likely be turned off in quite a hurry. *grin*

in the example of the post right above mine, meticulous detail is put into describing exactly why, ten years later, the music as is shouldn't be changed.  *shrug*  can't say much to that, really, since it's hard to convince anyone who is immovable about something they love so dearly that a change for the newer times might be better.  however, do remember that riku has feelings too . (:

also remember that all of the remixed songs will be optional.  none of them will be required to be in the game.  who knows?  throw it in when the game comes out and you may be surprised.

(of course, now this makes me afraid to have any of the ones -i- have worked on released as a preview. *gulp*)

Don't worry Norg, I for one love the new remix!

its flavor actually does remind me of the spider, in more of a spinning-the-web sense then anything else.

keeping in mind that I have not yet been able to hear the old version (sc2 can't run with sound on XP); I think that this music fits the Ilwrath.  Its certainly a better fit than much of the music put in SC3.

I just gave it a listen.. the ilwrath now sound like a very friendly/happy race. I envision sunshine, rainbows and friendly, cheerful smiles on a hip, happenin' dance floor.

I haven't snagged the song yet, but if someone touches my Kzer-za music they shall be bludgeoned to maimed by my shirt. No song in all SC2 demans more respect or fear than the Kzer-za

I actually thought the new remix fitted the Ilwrath rather well- maybe I'm just a sick bastard, but I found them very funny the first time I played the game, just all the ridiculously over the top bad guy stuff, and given their 'comic book badguy' quality, imo the new remix expresses the horrific things about the Ilwrath as well as their absurdness. In a way, the slightly cheery quality of the new remix makes them more chilling than any cliched 'evil' theme would.

Just listened to the remix and I think it sounds fine.  Reminds me a little of the Invader ZIM theme, actually. :)