The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release => Starbase Café => Topic started by: Mr._Jiggles on March 27, 2006, 06:23:23 am



Title: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Mr._Jiggles on March 27, 2006, 06:23:23 am
Abdul Manan is being sentenced to death in Afganistan for converting from Islam to Christianity. That isn't right and heres a news article on it by ABC news:

By DANIEL COONEY

KABUL, Afghanistan Mar 19, 2006 (AP)— An Afghan man is being prosecuted in a Kabul court and could be sentenced to death on a charge of converting from Islam to Christianity, a crime under this country's Islamic laws, a judge said Sunday.

The trial is believed to be the first of its kind in Afghanistan and highlights a struggle between religious conservatives and reformists over what shape Islam should take here four years after the ouster of the Islamic fundamentalist Taliban regime.

The defendant, 41-yer-old Abdul Rahman, was arrested last month after his family accused him of becoming a Christian, Judge Ansarullah Mawlavezada told The Associated Press in an interview. Rahman was charged with rejecting Islam and his trial started Thursday.

During the one-day hearing, the defendant confessed that he converted from Islam to Christianity 16 years ago while working as a medical aid worker for an international Christian group helping Afghan refugees in the Pakistani city of Peshawar, Mawlavezada said.

"We are not against any particular religion in the world. But in Afghanistan, this sort of thing is against the law," the judge said. "It is an attack on Islam."

Mawlavezada said he would rule on the case within two months.

Afghanistan's constitution is based on Shariah law, which is interpreted by many Muslims to require that any Muslim who rejects Islam be sentenced to death, said Ahmad Fahim Hakim, deputy chairman of the state-sponsored Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission.

Repeated attempts to interview Rahman in detention were barred.

The prosecutor, Abdul Wasi, said he had offered to drop the charges if Rahman converted back to Islam, but he refused.

"He would have been forgiven if he changed back. But he said he was a Christian and would always remain one," Wasi told AP. "We are Muslims and becoming a Christian is against our laws. He must get the death penalty."

After being an aid worker for four years in Pakistan, Rahman moved to Germany for nine years, his father, Abdul Manan, said outside his Kabul home.

Those people in Afganistan are horrible, this is the kind of democracy our government set up there. Good job Bush, you had them right a constition liking that of Iran's.....


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Shiver on March 27, 2006, 09:44:16 am
Two things.

1) Their decision to execute the guy is a horrible affront to humanity.

2) It's their right to do it. The Afghani people can make up their own minds about Afghan law, can't they?


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: NECRO-99 on March 27, 2006, 12:43:01 pm
Er, the extremists aren't the only ones that want this guy dead- they all do. Sorry if that's a shock to you, but that's how the Middle East's culture has been for thousands of years. Everyone does things the way that they are, because thats how things have always been done. Someone upsets the flow, they are punished.

To them, this man is seen as wreaking havoc and causing unwarranted commotion in the community, his denouncal of their religion (and therefore way of life) nonwithstanding.

I feel for the guy, but he should've seen it coming. I mean, his own family turned him in. Turning against Islam is illegal in Afghanistan.

This (http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/news_service/middle_east_full_story.asp?service_id=10821) appears to be a bit of hope for him. However, this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4841334.stm) makes a soul wonder what's going to happen if he is indeed let go.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Zeep-Eeep on March 27, 2006, 05:03:36 pm
As was already pointed out, if the court releases this guy,
the people will likely kill him in the streets.

Hey, guys, look at the bright side. If he's right and
Christianity is the way to go, he'll be in Heaven soon.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: XR4-IT on March 27, 2006, 09:53:29 pm
I was just listening to my local news radio (KSL in Utah) and they said the courts through out the case.

Perhaps this will embolden others who may keep the beliefs under the table to come out in the open and really change things over there.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: Mr._Jiggles on March 28, 2006, 04:23:59 am
I don't think they threw the case out, let me see an article on this.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: Uejji on March 28, 2006, 06:29:07 am
Well, Qu'ran-only Islamists do not typically/always feel that apostasy should bring a death penalty, as the Qu'ran seems to mention how to deal with a person who has commited apostasy multiple times.  Meaning to them that this wouldn't be possible if they were killed after the first time.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: guesst on March 28, 2006, 04:49:20 pm
Now, I actually knew an Islam guy who when he converted to Christianity his father lobodimized him. It was an act of mercy. Clearly, since he's crazy (now) he's not resposible for the religion he attends.

It's messed up, but as Zeep-Eeep said :
Quote
If he's right and Christianity is the way to go, he'll be in Heaven soon.
The guy's gotta know that and be willing to accept that risk when he converted.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: XR4-IT on March 28, 2006, 06:54:07 pm
http://civilliberty.about.com/b/a/2006_03_28.htm

Here is a URL to a new story that says that he was let go because he was "mentally unfit to stand trial."

So being Christian makes you nuts.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: grayfox777 on March 28, 2006, 08:57:45 pm
http://civilliberty.about.com/b/a/2006_03_28.htm

Here is a URL to a new story that says that he was let go because he was "mentally unfit to stand trial."

So being Christian makes you nuts.


Well, at least it's 100s of times better than being put to death. If I were him, I'd leave that damn country and never return. His family doesn't seem to care enough about him, so why should he bother coming back?


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Zeep-Eeep on March 29, 2006, 03:05:21 am
I think the moral is converting to Christianity in a country where
they'll kill you for it is nuts. Converting to Christianity in most
places....might not be as nuts.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: Lukipela on March 29, 2006, 08:09:30 am
It's not really even christinaity that's the issue here, is it? I thought it was against religious law to convert from Islam. Meaning he could just as well have become a Buddhist or a Hindu, and he'd be in the same pickle.

Still, it's sad to see that we once again lack initiative and eagerness in the west. Why are we not demonstrating in front of Afghani, Pakistani and Iranian embassies, demanding that they stop persecuting Christians? Flag burning would be nice too. After all, the idea of demanding respect for your religion should work both ways.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: NECRO-99 on March 29, 2006, 10:14:31 am
Because we don't care.

ADD: Actually, it's because we don't want to step on any toes by protesting about a man's religious rights (or lack thereof) in another country. A country the average American knows next to nothing about, save the commonly negative images the mass media feeds them.

Don't want to agitate anyone, after all. Just keep your head down and go about your business, citizen...be politically correct and no one gets hurt...














...or do they?


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Zeep-Eeep on March 29, 2006, 03:17:17 pm
Why don't we protest? Because the last thing anyone
wants to do is tick off a crazy person.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: XR4-IT on March 29, 2006, 08:00:22 pm
My task masters would not tolerate my going out and protesting anything.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: guesst on March 30, 2006, 12:42:49 am
My task masters would not tolerate my going out and protesting anything.

You married too?

And so we don't go too off topic, we don't protest because America is about 200 years past being the protesting type. Sure we were esentally formed based on the idea of religious freedom for all, but now we got ours, so you get yours, and d*mned if we'll help you do it.

On the other hand if we do help you secure for yourself the freedoms that our forefathers fought and bleed for our own people will protest us for doing it. So d*mned if we do, d*mned if we don't, eh?


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Deus Siddis on March 30, 2006, 03:55:29 am
I heard he's in italy now, been granted asylum.


Quote
2) It's their right to do it. The Afghani people can make up their own minds about Afghan law, can't they?

Democrasy in action.


Quote
I think the moral is converting to Christianity in a country where
they'll kill you for it is nuts.

Or maybe not trying to kill the people who'll kill you for it is nuts. If I were in his shoes (not much of a family, not much of a country) they'd better prey to ala that I make it to the sactuary of another nation. The first one to try and stone me for bullshit like this, is the first I'd send to his 72 virgins. Hey, if they're going to kill you anyway, why not go down as a fighting martyr.


Quote
It's not really even christinaity that's the issue here, is it?

No, that's just what he converted to. You could also complain about us mentioning the detail that he is a man, saying his gender isn't the issue either, couldn't you?


Quote
Still, it's sad to see that we once again lack initiative and eagerness in the west. Why are we not demonstrating in front of Afghani, Pakistani and Iranian embassies, demanding that they stop persecuting Christians? Flag burning would be nice too. After all, the idea of demanding respect for your religion should work both ways.

I suppose we could, but it'd make life rougher for our troops over there, and we need the tiberium. :)


Quote
Because we don't care.

And because we can't "liberate" them from they're own violent stupidity. We removed the taliban, but unless the current regime is unpopular, we can't just go and kick them out too.

It's a real morals twister. To fight injustice, one must embrace tyranny and dictatorship over the masses.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: meep-eep on March 30, 2006, 04:10:57 am
"Democracy or freedom, pick one."

Although both are relative.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: NECRO-99 on March 31, 2006, 06:42:47 am
Hey, if they're going to kill you anyway, why not go down as a fighting martyr.

Jesus went peaceably, look at the impact he made. Violence begets violence, but as Ghandi said, an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. If they just killed you, no effort to resist on your behalf, the shockwave created would probably be pretty big.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Deus Siddis on March 31, 2006, 04:10:20 pm
Quote
Jesus went peaceably, look at the impact he made. Violence begets violence, but as Ghandi said, an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.

Jesus and Ghandi sorta got killed. Ghandi also wasn't talking to me, because I don't subscribe to the this=that law of vengeance or whatever. If someone comes to kill you for something like this, he'll probably hurt many other innocents for similar "violations" of islamic bullsh*t law. So, if you can't get away, why not save all those lives he would have someday destroyed, by stoning/blowing him away, with divine justice (gods on your side, remember.) :)


Quote
If they just killed you, no effort to resist on your behalf, the shockwave created would probably be pretty big.

Oh, well now that you put it that away, I guess getting killed isn't so bad. (You're not the kind of person who looks both ways before he crosses, are you?) ;)

But, if I allow him to kill me for being a christian convert, think of all the christians around the world who would look down on muslim's for this. So to follow in Jesus' and Ghandi's wishes, I must not allow myself to lay down and die as a martyr for increased animosity between the two religions.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: JonoPorter on April 01, 2006, 09:19:57 am
Jesus and Ghandi sorta got killed.
Jesus was raised again on the 3rd day after his death. Ghandi was not.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: Ivan Ivanov on April 01, 2006, 01:41:48 pm
Jesus and Ghandi sorta got killed.
Jesus was raised again on the 3rd day after his death. Ghandi was not.


...and  when Brian Boitano travelled through time to the year 3010, he fought the evil robot king and saved the human race again...
What's your point?


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Deus Siddis on April 01, 2006, 05:43:29 pm
That could actually be very true, in a dull, non-supernatural way. Many have been entombed alive, by their dumb-ass relatives who don't wait until they start to stink or stiffen up. Jesus could have been in a coma, or taken some zombie fish, like those in the caribean. Then later some strong friends are paying their respects, and Jesus is like "Yo, like I'm totally trapped in here" and so they roll the rock out of the way. Then his wife and mother come strolling by and sayeth "Shit, the lord hath taken him upeth to the kingdom above and. . ." interrupted by the other dudes "No, he was just in a coma from all the partyin' during the last super, he jumped on a carivan headed back for India."

The rest of the official story is then written out by other members of the cult.

Of course, if you want something more exciting, Jesus could also have been abducted by pervert aliens in a flying CD.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: Baltar on April 01, 2006, 10:20:14 pm
Jesus and Ghandi sorta got killed.
Jesus was raised again on the 3rd day after his death. Ghandi was not.


...and  when Brian Boitano travelled through time to the year 3010, he fought the evil robot king and saved the human race again...
What's your point?

I have two possible interpretations.  Both stupid, and therefore befitting of Bio Slayer:

1) He doesn't want Christ thrown into a category with anyone else, especially with a smelly brahmin,  because Christ is uber special!

2) Christ was brought back to life, therefore not killed and thus not a martyr at all.

Take your pick; both are irrelevant.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: JonoPorter on April 02, 2006, 01:42:49 am
This is rather interesting and all too common. The moment I bring up the resurrection of Jesus Christ, people try to attack my faith with statements that are either not relevant or generally insulting. Only Deus_Siddis came up with an intelligent attack. A problem with his is that the Romans posted guards on Jesus tomb and would not let him walk away out after sentencing him to death. Another is while Christ was still on the cross Romans pierced his heart with a spear to make sure he was dead. Jesus Christ did not die to become a martyr; he came to do the ultimate sacrifice so that our sins may be forgiven if we only believe in him.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Zeep-Eeep on April 02, 2006, 02:09:10 am
I'm usually content to leave others to their faith, but
I've got to throw up a red flag on this one. While it
does say in the Bible that the tomb where the body
of Jesus was kept was guarded, no where does it
say the Romans pierced his heart. The book of
John is, I think, the only one which refers to Jesus being
stabbed by a guard while on the cross and it just says
he was stabbed in the side.

In an eariler book, I think Mathew, it says when Mary comes to
the tomb, the Roman guards appeared to be dead/asleep. Jesus
might have been snuck by them.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: Baltar on April 02, 2006, 04:38:08 am
This is rather interesting and all too common. The moment I bring up the resurrection of Jesus Christ, people try to attack my faith with statements that are either not relevant or generally insulting. Only Deus_Siddis came up with an intelligent attack. A problem with his is that the Romans posted guards on Jesus tomb and would not let him walk away out after sentencing him to death. Another is while Christ was still on the cross Romans pierced his heart with a spear to make sure he was dead. Jesus Christ did not die to become a martyr; he came to do the ultimate sacrifice so that our sins may be forgiven if we only believe in him.

Really?  That's nice.  I'm afraid you got it all wrong.  Noone was attacking your faith.  They were just attacking YOU. ;D

Your original comment is still utterly irrelevant.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Zeep-Eeep on April 02, 2006, 05:50:57 am
I think Bio had a point. I mean, Ghandi was killed for
preaching peace. So was Jesus. However, if Jesus really
came back from the dead (as Bio points out) then it
was a different sort of sacrifice. As far as I know, Ghandi
didn't pull off any resurrections. Is one really giving
their life for the cause if they can return from death?


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Deus Siddis on April 02, 2006, 07:01:26 am
Quote
especially with a smelly brahmin,

Are you sure Ghandi was a Brahmin? I thought he was a lawyer or something.


Quote
Only Deus_Siddis came up with an intelligent attack.

It's not an attack, I honestly think that is a possibility. Besides, he's not my savior, but I don't mind a happy ending for him.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: JonoPorter on April 02, 2006, 08:45:29 am
I think, the only one which refers to Jesus being
stabbed by a guard while on the cross and it just says
he was stabbed in the side.

In an eariler book, I think Mathew, it says when Mary comes to
the tomb, the Roman guards appeared to be dead/asleep. Jesus
might have been snuck by them.

OK so I got heart and side mixed up, but the rest correct.

Here are the passages you mentioned.

John 19 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+19&version1=31):33-34:
Quote
33But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.

Even if it wasn’t his heart the blood loss would have killed him if he wasn’t already dead.

Matthew 28 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Matthew+28&version1=31): 2- 4
Quote
2There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. 4The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men.
Matthew 28 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Matthew+28&version1=31): 11- 15
Quote
11While the women were on their way, some of the guards went into the city and reported to the chief priests everything that had happened. 12When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, 13telling them, "You are to say, 'His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.' 14If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble." 15So the soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has been widely circulated among the Jews to this very day.

So was Jesus. However, if Jesus really came back from the dead (as Bio points out) then it was a different sort of sacrifice.
I think you may miss interpret or miss understand what the sacrifice was and is. The Jewish community before Christ came had to do periodic sacrifices. Jesus came as the ultimate Lamb of God and was sacrificed so our sins can be forgiven, the last sacrifice. All you have to do is believe in him to be forgiven and saved.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: Ivan Ivanov on April 02, 2006, 12:56:11 pm
This is rather interesting and all too common. The moment I bring up the resurrection of Jesus Christ, people try to attack my faith with statements that are either not relevant or generally insulting.

Could it be because you started talking about Jesus' existance and resurrection like it was a universally accepted fact, expecting that people should respect your faith even tough you cannot respect their leack thereof?

I'm sorry if I came of as insulting.
I just wanted to state that, as far as I'm concerned, we might as well be talking about Brian Boitano's time travelling adventures, and ask you what was the point of bringing up details of the story of Jesus?


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: Culture20 on April 02, 2006, 10:55:31 pm
John 19 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+19&version1=31):33-34:
Quote
33But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
Slightly interesting side notes:
The Romans used to break the legs of people who were still alive to speed up their deaths.  Without their legs to support them, the strain on the torso from their arms/shoulders being tied (nailed) into place would suffocate them.  The fact that they only stabbed him meant he was dead. 
Also, many people believe that the "water" that came out with the blood was fluid from the pericardial sac around the heart, thus leading to BioSlayer's original conviction regarding the heart-stabbing.  For this fluid to have been visible along with blood, he would have had to have lost a lot of blood (not surprising since he was nailed to the cross unlike most of the others sentenced to death in this fashion).


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: JonoPorter on April 03, 2006, 01:36:34 am
Could it be because you started talking about Jesus' existance and resurrection like it was a universally accepted fact, expecting that people should respect your faith even tough you cannot respect their leack thereof?
In this thread there was mention of Jesus and that he died. In my mind you can’t talk about Jesus’ death without talking about his resurrection. So I mentioned his resurrection in reply to the mention of his death.

How have I disrespected yours or others' lack of faith?


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: Baltar on April 03, 2006, 02:29:20 am
In this thread there was mention of Jesus and that he died. In my mind you can’t talk about Jesus’ death without talking about his resurrection. So I mentioned his resurrection in reply to the mention of his death.

You just avoided the point.  What does the resurrection have to do with the rest of this thread?

Quote
How have I disrespected yours or others' lack of faith?

Because you bring it up as if it were fact, and again without being germane?

The only 'rather interesting' bit to this whole affair is that you consider your faith under attack when someone raises facts that run counter to your faith  yet didn't consider yourself to have been attacking anyone else's faith when you brought up your own set of 'facts' in the first place.



Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: JonoPorter on April 03, 2006, 03:26:57 am
What does the resurrection have to do with the rest of this thread?
Let me restate your question in a way that it appears to me.

"Why are bringing up a fundamental part of Christianity in a thread discussing a person who converted to Christianity?"


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: Baltar on April 03, 2006, 04:15:46 am
Let me restate your question in a way that it appears to me.

"Why are bringing up a fundamental part of Christianity in a thread discussing a person who converted to Christianity?"

Yeah?  And?

The particular tangent you interjected in had to do with martyrdom.  In that context, why where you trying to make a distinction between Jesus and Ghandi?

Now let me restate your point as it appears to me:  you deliberately interjected an irrelevant statement of Christian dogma precisely because it is irrelevant, would provoke a response, and thus you could hop on your "oh lawd we are so oppressed!" soapbox.  Did I get that right?


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Draxas on April 03, 2006, 10:21:16 pm
I think Bio had a point. I mean, Ghandi was killed for
preaching peace. So was Jesus. However, if Jesus really
came back from the dead (as Bio points out) then it
was a different sort of sacrifice. As far as I know, Ghandi
didn't pull off any resurrections. Is one really giving
their life for the cause if they can return from death?

Aren't we neglecting the fact that, according to his religion (Hindu, at least I assume), Gandhi would simply be reincarnated at some later date? I suppose that means he was resurrected as well.

Quote
I think you may miss interpret or miss understand what the sacrifice was and is. The Jewish community before Christ came had to do periodic sacrifices. Jesus came as the ultimate Lamb of God and was sacrificed so our sins can be forgiven, the last sacrifice. All you have to do is believe in him to be forgiven and saved.

Now, speaking as someone who would know, the Jewish community would give a very different reason why they stopped making burnt offerings. We're not buying what you're selling, thank you, try the house down the road.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Zeep-Eeep on April 04, 2006, 01:40:08 am
Okay, I'll bite, why don't people in the Jewish community give
burnt offerings? The smell? The waste?

As for the reincarnation vs. resurrection, I think they're two
notably different events. In the first, one returns to Earth with
no memory, in a different form/body and starts from scratch
(as a baby). With resurrection, one simply comes back to
the life/body/memories one had prior to death. Also, the
part of the resurrection many Christians like is the idea that
one does not die again after being resurrected.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Nathanael on April 04, 2006, 04:53:29 am
I think Bio had a point. I mean, Ghandi was killed for
preaching peace. So was Jesus. However, if Jesus really
came back from the dead (as Bio points out) then it
was a different sort of sacrifice. As far as I know, Ghandi
didn't pull off any resurrections. Is one really giving
their life for the cause if they can return from death?


U guys seem to think of death as simple ure dead its not. U must remember in christianity we believe that our souls will continue in Heaven or Hell. Or in the case of the Catholics they believe in Purgatory,which i'd like just one Catholic show me in the Bible where it speaks of purgatory?But anyways.And his death was not just any other. He was put through the most painful of tortures,The Bible tells us he wasnt even recognizable as a man when he died.Can u imagine?!!! Watch The Passion of the christ.And look at him near the end hes still recognizable which means it coulda been even more gruesome.

The point of him dieing for our sins is that he was SINLESS and didnt deserve to die.But he died so we could go to heaven he sacrificed himself. He shed the most innocent of blood that ever was on this Earth.

And i'd like to congradulate u bio,for being very well spoken.Well i tend to think so anyways.(I as well believe in christianity very strongly).


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: Arne on April 04, 2006, 06:13:49 am
Quote from: Nathaniel
You *campers* think of *dissoving* and it *dissolves*! It is not. You must remember. In this *game* our *fingers* will *slide* in *above* or *below*. The other *silly babies* think you *smell* then *slide*! This is not the *game* we play! It matters not. *Squishy* one is *dissolving* like no other. So *fat* and *frumple*! Can you imagine? If you could *smell* our *special game* you could *open*! These are *fat* words.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: XR4-IT on April 04, 2006, 06:14:04 pm
I think its great how Christians love to fight each other just as much as they love to fight others. One person reads the Bible and interprets it differently other people so they start arguing about what the Bible actually says. I served as a Christian missionary for two years so trust me I know how that goes, every one is willing to tell me what’s wrong with what I believe, and while there at it they go on and tell me why they don’t like there neighbor (How Christian of them).

So any how I guess that it dose not surprise me that the debate on the resurrection of Jesus got started because of how zealous any one is about there beliefs.

As to Gandhi he probably will be resurrected because according to my beliefs all mankind will rise from the dead, and then assigned a glory according to their faithfulness (being judged by there knowledge of the law).  See 1 Corinthians 15 : 39 -43

39
All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, [and] another of birds.

40
[There are] also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another.

41
[There is] one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory.

42
So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43
It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

Any how that’s how my beliefs work, and I think that Gandhi and others are going to be pretty well off in the next life ( better then most Christians I know)

I like to hear what other people believe so give me your thoughts.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Deus Siddis on April 04, 2006, 10:09:02 pm
Quote
Aren't we neglecting the fact that, according to his religion (Hindu, at least I assume), Gandhi would simply be reincarnated at some later date? I suppose that means he was resurrected as well.

This whole comparision between Gandhi and Jesus is ridiculous. They were both radically non-violent and both had big followings. The similarity ends there.

Gandhi we almost definitely know existed (you never 100% know someone unless you've met him/her) Jesus probably existed. Gandhi wished to remove occupiers (and succeeded,) Jesus did not. Gandhi was bald, Jesus probably was not. Gandi did not perform "miracles," Jesus was said to have. Gandhi is not the center of a religion, Jesus is. Etc., etc., etc,. . .


Quote
Now, speaking as someone who would know, the Jewish community would give a very different reason why they stopped making burnt offerings.

If you really know why, just say why.

Maybe there was a famine, and those who kept up with the sacrifices went extinct from starvation.


Quote
In the first, one returns to Earth with
no memory, in a different form/body and starts from scratch
(as a baby).

You can have memories, memorilessness is not a requirement for reincarnation. I think it sometimes/always is so in the old celtic religion(s). In fact, I can't think of any religion that believes in reincarnation, that also believes that nobody can remember back.


Quote
But anyways. And his death was not just any other.

He might not have died. Like I said before, using certain natural potions, one can seem very dead. He was perhaps buried alive (as many have been throughout history) and the let out by followers. I wouldn't put it past him, he was quite the warlock, with all kinds of skills and understanding of medicine (from what is legend.)


Quote
I like to hear what other people believe so give me your thoughts.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "glory." Does that mean uniqueness, merit, honor, holiness?


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: XR4-IT on April 04, 2006, 10:45:32 pm

He might not have died. Like I said before, using certain natural potions, one can seem very dead. He was perhaps buried alive (as many have been throughout history) and the let out by followers. I wouldn't put it past him, he was quite the warlock, with all kinds of skills and understanding of medicine (from what is legend.)


Quote
I like to hear what other people believe so give me your thoughts.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "glory." Does that mean uniqueness, merit, honor, holiness?

All we really know about Jesus is what is in the Bible and other holy books, and from what is written in those books we know he had died and took up his body again.

Christians gain understanding that what is in the Bible and other scripture (ancient or otherwise) are truth because of conformation from the Holy Ghost.

We believe that the Holy Ghost is sent to men form God to comfort us, give us direction in our lives, and teach us truth.

As to my uses of the word glory, think of it as receiving different levels of Heaven after the resurrection of the body. The level of glory one attains is based on our merits in mortality, and our faith in the Atonement of the Christ the Holy Messiah. The Atonement is the sacrifice that Jesus made for mankind and through repentance and obedience to the laws of God one can be washed clean through the sacrifice that Christ made for us; therefore we can be admitted clean to stand in the presence of God after the time of the resurrection.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Draxas on April 04, 2006, 11:27:53 pm
Okay, I'll bite, why don't people in the Jewish community give
burnt offerings? The smell? The waste?

The reason has more to do with practicality than anything else. In the days of the first and second temples, people had a place to gather to make these offerings, and a dedicated, on-site clergy to care for both the location the sacrifices were made, and the rites and customs necessary to sanctify the sacrifices themselves. However, with the destruction of the second temple, the Diaspora (which scattered the Jewish people across the world), and the general move away from an agrarian society and toward other ways of life, making burnt offerings of crops and livestock was considered an impractical and outdated practice, and was discontinued. In their place, the Rabbis suggest mitzvot (good deds) and tzedukah (roughly translated, charity) instead.

Quote
As for the reincarnation vs. resurrection, I think they're two
notably different events. In the first, one returns to Earth with
no memory, in a different form/body and starts from scratch
(as a baby). With resurrection, one simply comes back to
the life/body/memories one had prior to death. Also, the
part of the resurrection many Christians like is the idea that
one does not die again after being resurrected.

Actually, according to Hindu beliefs, once a soul reaches a sufficient state of enlightenment through repeated reincarnations, they are able to retain all of their memories of all of their past lives. Now, I don't know what he thought of himself exactly, but you can bet his followers believed he had reached that state.

Mind you, I've known some Christians who take great offense at the idea of reincarnation. The reason was twofold:

1) Coming back from the dead was something special that only Jesus could and should do, not something that can happen to any old schlub.
2) It flies in the face of the idea of going to heaven/hell, and the fear of living free from the terrible, crushing guilt overrode their distaste for said guilt.

Anyway, I suspect that this will be the last comment I make in this particular thread; some people find my tongue-in-cheek attitude and devil's advocacy offensive when placed in the context of religion. I, for one, can't figure out why, but I will retire for now in the interest of pretending to be Switzerland. :P


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Deus Siddis on April 04, 2006, 11:47:02 pm
Quote
All we really know about Jesus is what is in the Bible and other holy books, and from what is written in those books we know he had died and took up his body again.
Christians gain understanding that what is in the Bible and other scripture (ancient or otherwise) are truth because of conformation from the Holy Ghost.
We believe that the Holy Ghost is sent to men form God to comfort us, give us direction in our lives, and teach us truth.
As to my uses of the word glory, think of it as receiving different levels of Heaven after the resurrection of the body. The level of glory one attains is based on our merits in mortality, and our faith in the Atonement of the Christ the Holy Messiah. The Atonement is the sacrifice that Jesus made for mankind and through repentance and obedience to the laws of God one can be washed clean through the sacrifice that Christ made for us; therefore we can be admitted clean to stand in the presence of God after the time of the resurrection.

Long definition. Glory = Good (ie not evil then.) So why did you christians switch from believing in reincarnation, to believing in going from one life on to heaven? Also, what is the retirement plan for you and your competitors-- In short, what is the Christian concept of heaven like exactly, and how does it compare to the Islamic or Jewish Paradise/Reincarnation?


Quote
Anyway, I suspect that this will be the last comment I make in this particular thread; some people find my tongue-in-cheek attitude and devil's advocacy offensive when placed in the context of religion. I, for one, can't figure out why, but I will retire for now in the interest of pretending to be Switzerland.

I don't think anyone here has a problem with what you've said on this thread (that I can recall, it's covered many topics.) But stick around, it's a religious thread, so it will eventually blow up in everyone's face, which is good if you have a good afterlife waiting for you (so far, mine sucks.) :)


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: XR4-IT on April 04, 2006, 11:52:07 pm
Okay, I'll bite, why don't people in the Jewish community give
burnt offerings? The smell? The waste?

The reason has more to do with practicality than anything else. In the days of the first and second temples, people had a place to gather to make these offerings, and a dedicated, on-site clergy to care for both the location the sacrifices were made, and the rites and customs necessary to sanctify the sacrifices themselves. However, with the destruction of the second temple, the Diaspora (which scattered the Jewish people across the world), and the general move away from an agrarian society and toward other ways of life, making burnt offerings of crops and livestock was considered an impractical and outdated practice, and was discontinued. In their place, the Rabbis suggest mitzvot (good deds) and tzedukah (roughly translated, charity) instead.

I never thought of it that way.

I thought that it was because the line of priesthood that was held by the Sons of Aaron and the Levites was broken, and because of that there was no one left with the authority to perform the ordinances of sacrifice.

I could be wrong though. I don’t know that many Jews, and they could still be conferring the priesthood on the Sons of Aaron to this day.

Draxas if you happen to read this let me know.




Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: nathanael on April 05, 2006, 04:58:46 am
I wonder why the Jews stopped too I mean if they dont believe Jesus was the Mesiah then they need to continue giving burnt offerings for thier sins.

And Deus what do u mean Why we switched from believing in Reincarnation WE NEVER I REPEAT NEVER BELIEVED IN REINCARNATION.

Draxas Please stay. Only guy im gettin upset with is Deus but thats just cause he seems to like to twist words and stuff. But I still listen to him. So u most deffinately deserve to stay voice ure oppinion.(As long as u respect what we say too anyways ;D)


Title: Name that religion!
Post by: Zeep-Eeep on April 05, 2006, 02:07:49 pm
I'd like to share a little game I sometimes play. I look at
or listen to a person for a few minutes. Then I try to
guess their religion without asking any questions.
If I can guess the religion of the "target" I get a point.
If they have to tell me, I don't get a point. It's best played
with a small group.

Anyway, I bring this up, because I'm going to take a shot
here. XR4-IT, would you be a member of the LDS?

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. Someone here
asked where in the Bible it talks about purgatory. I
think in the book of Mathew, it touches on the idea. It
depends on the inturpretation. You see, Jesus dies
(that's the theory, anyway) and goes to Hades. The
translations differ quite a bit between Bibles. However,
sometimes it's refered to as "Hell", sometimes as
"Hades" sometimes a "land of the dead". Depending
on your translation of the text, you could view it
as purgatory.  In which case Jesus would have been
in purgatory for three days, rather than Heaven or Hell
before returning to life.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: Lukipela on April 05, 2006, 02:08:39 pm
Because we don't care.

ADD: Actually, it's because we don't want to step on any toes by protesting about a man's religious rights (or lack thereof) in another country.

Which is fine and dandy. But you would still have the right to do so. Just as muslims can go out and protest if you do something offensive to their religion, you are equally entitled to demonstrate if you feel they are violating your sense of ethics. I just find it curious that in the western world, not even die hard fanatic zealots seem to have grasped this. Had I been the head of some large sect, I'd have had my followers torching flags in the street long since. After all, I have full right to express myself.

Quote
Don't want to agitate anyone, after all. Just keep your head down and go about your business, citizen...be politically correct and no one gets hurt...

I seem to recall Chamberlain adopting a similar atitude.

Quote from: DEUS_SIDDIS
No, that's just what he converted to. You could also complain about us mentioning the detail that he is a man, saying his gender isn't the issue either, couldn't you?

Way off the bat there DS. To begin with, I'm not complaining. I'm merely stating a fact. To follow up, the reason I'm doing it is because otherwise a topic name like this is easily misinterpreted. In several places, I've already met people of the firm belief that this is an Afgani anti-christian thing, when it in fact is simply an anti-everyone thing. I simply grow tired of hearing people talk about how christinaity is under seige without cause.

Quote from: BioSlayer
How have I disrespected yours or others' lack of faith?

Well, you could have just said:

Quote from: BioSlayer
I believe that Jesus was raised again on the 3rd day after his death. Ghandi was not.

It still wouldn't have added much to the discussion, but the way you stated it offended our atheists (who are an easily offendable bunch sometimes).

Quote
I'd like to share a little game I sometimes play. I look at
or listen to a person for a few minutes. Then I try to
guess their religion without asking any questions.

Do you play this over the internet? And how specific are you? Does just "Christian" or "muslim" suffice, or do you need to get the presbyterian or sunni part right as well?


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: Ivan Ivanov on April 05, 2006, 02:32:31 pm
Which is fine and dandy. But you would still have the right to do so. Just as muslims can go out and protest if you do something offensive to their religion, you are equally entitled to demonstrate if you feel they are violating your sense of ethics. I just find it curious that in the western world, not even die hard fanatic zealots seem to have grasped this. Had I been the head of some large sect, I'd have had my followers torching flags in the street long since. After all, I have full right to express myself.

Do you mean a protest in general, or a flag burning fest in particular?
I haven't heard of any protest against the treatment of this man (tough I miss a lot of things), and it is quite interesting.
But if you're wondering why we don't engage in flag-burning I think it's because even the fanatics are aware it's a quite silly thing to do. If I burned the flag of a country with witch a disagree, all that would accomplish is turning people from siad country, that might have agreed with me, agaisnt me.

Quote
Quote from: BioSlayer
I believe that Jesus was raised again on the 3rd day after his death. Ghandi was not.

It still wouldn't have added much to the discussion, but the way you stated it offended our atheists (who are an easily offendable bunch sometimes).

That would still leave the question of the reason for such a distinction... but I admit, I'd proably leave the Brian Boitano part out of my question, if it was worded this way.


Title: Re: Name that religion!
Post by: XR4-IT on April 05, 2006, 05:43:40 pm
I'd like to share a little game I sometimes play. I look at
or listen to a person for a few minutes. Then I try to
guess their religion without asking any questions.
If I can guess the religion of the "target" I get a point.
If they have to tell me, I don't get a point. It's best played
with a small group.

Anyway, I bring this up, because I'm going to take a shot
here. XR4-IT, would you be a member of the LDS?

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. Someone here
asked where in the Bible it talks about purgatory. I
think in the book of Mathew, it touches on the idea. It
depends on the inturpretation. You see, Jesus dies
(that's the theory, anyway) and goes to Hades. The
translations differ quite a bit between Bibles. However,
sometimes it's refered to as "Hell", sometimes as
"Hades" sometimes a "land of the dead". Depending
on your translation of the text, you could view it
as purgatory.  In which case Jesus would have been
in purgatory for three days, rather than Heaven or Hell
before returning to life.


You hit me ;)

Any how we of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, Also have a similar doctrine to what you call purgatory, though we simply call it the world of spirits (I think I have seen it called Sheol as well).

This is where the spirits of the dead wait between death and the resurrection. We believe that during the time that Christ was in the world of spirits he taught the spirits of the righteous to prepare them to teach the spirits of those that did not receive the gospel in mortality.

As too the question about what Christian heaven is like, different groups of Christians have different ideas and beliefs.  I can tell you what the LDS people believe though.

First you must understand that we believe that we (all man kind) are the literal spirit children of our Father in Heaven (God). He sent us here to earth to gain a body, experience, and to be tested to see if we can be faithful to him. When we were borne a vale was placed over our memories so that we could not remember our pre-mortal life in the presence of God.

In this life we are tested to see if we can choose good over evil, when we choose good we become more like Christ and our Father in Heaven and grow spiritually.

After death and the resurrection we are judged according to how we did in mortality. If we have repented of our sins and obeyed the laws of the gospel, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ we can be cleansed and found worthy to enter into the presence of God.

Because we are the literal spirit children of our Father in Heaven, if we enter into the highest glory of heaven we can continue to progress and become like our Father in Heaven.

We also believe that families can be together in heaven, and that marriage need not end at death, but that husband and wife can stand together through eternity.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Deus Siddis on April 05, 2006, 06:21:26 pm
Quote
And Deus what do u mean Why we switched from believing in Reincarnation WE NEVER I REPEAT NEVER BELIEVED IN REINCARNATION.

I've heard that early christians believed in reincarnation (which doesn't mean they didn't believe in heaven as well.) Are you every christian who ever lived? How can you be so sure, just because you have read one book (the bible) seven ways to sunday. Your savior didn't write the bible, it was written, rewritten, and translated many times by various non-savior people.


Quote
Only guy im gettin upset with is Deus but thats just cause he seems to like to twist words and stuff.

I'm not twisting words, as I'm not deriving all my points from quotes of the bible. I think the bible is the one that is maybe twisting words, and giving false impressions of events.


Quote
Way off the bat there DS. To begin with, I'm not complaining. I'm merely stating a fact. To follow up, the reason I'm doing it is because otherwise a topic name like this is easily misinterpreted. In several places, I've already met people of the firm belief that this is an Afgani anti-christian thing, when it in fact is simply an anti-everyone thing. I simply grow tired of hearing people talk about how christinaity is under seige without cause.

We didn't think it was christianity, specifically, that was under attack. Hell, many or most of us aren't christians anyway. An anti-everyone thing is actually worse for us. Of course, if most christians really thought they were specifically under attack, it would make them more likely to follow your advise and protest the man's persecution.


Quote
It still wouldn't have added much to the discussion, but the way you stated it offended our atheists (who are an easily offendable bunch sometimes).

I for one am an agnostic, and I didn't feel offended.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: XR4-IT on April 05, 2006, 07:15:00 pm
Quote
And Deus what do u mean Why we switched from believing in Reincarnation WE NEVER I REPEAT NEVER BELIEVED IN REINCARNATION.

I've heard that early christians believed in reincarnation (which doesn't mean they didn't believe in heaven as well.) Are you every christian who ever lived?

One of the problems with the early church is that when the gospel was taken to the gentiles (non Israelites)   many of the converts brought with them many of their old beliefs with them. Pall wrote several letters trying to correct many falls ideas that had entered into the church.

Quote
How can you be so sure, just because you have read one book (the bible) seven ways to sunday. Your savior didn't write the bible, it was written, rewritten, and translated many times by various non-savior people.

This is true, what we call the Bible today was not even compiled until a few hundred years after the death of Christ.  Some books of that were considered for the Christian Bible were altogether thrown out, and other books were destroyed before the Bible was compiled as well.

This is one of the reasons that The Church of Jesus Christ believes in our rather large cannon of scripture namely the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price.

We believe that these books were revealed to us by God, the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price were given to restore lost knowledge, and to correct false doctrine.

We also believe that new Prophets and Apostles have been called by God to lead the Church. These men continue to receive revelation from God. Also we believe that priesthood authority that was given to the ancient Apostles has been restored which allows the church leaders to act in the name of God.     

You are also right that Christianity was not under attack in Afghanistan but rather common human rights.

Quote
We also believe that families can be together in heaven, and that marriage need not end at death, but that husband and wife can stand together through eternity.
Quote

Kind words, but meaningless against the harsh truth. I wonder what you would tell one who believed and was then betrayed by such a lie.

I was curios why out of all the beliefs of mine that I have listed, you did not like this one.


Title: Re: Name that religion!
Post by: NECRO-99 on April 05, 2006, 07:43:49 pm

Any how we of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, Also have a similar doctrine to what you call purgatory, though we simply call it the world of spirits (I think I have seen it called Sheol as well).
This is where the spirits of the dead wait between death and the resurrection. We believe that during the time that Christ was in the world of spirits he taught the spirits of the righteous to prepare them to teach the spirits of those that did not receive the gospel in mortality.

I hate to bash apart anything, but "Sheol" is, IIRC, the Hebrew word for "the grave". Mistranslated (and misinterpreted) by Latin and then into English, you have the word "Hell".

I'd check with my pastor, were I you, as my knowledge of religion can be sketchy at best. I'm Christian, but I don't brag about it. I've been staying out of this discussion for that very reason, but I just thought I'd share this little, nonconsequential bit.


Title: Re: Name that religion!
Post by: XR4-IT on April 05, 2006, 07:51:46 pm

Any how we of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, Also have a similar doctrine to what you call purgatory, though we simply call it the world of spirits (I think I have seen it called Sheol as well).
This is where the spirits of the dead wait between death and the resurrection. We believe that during the time that Christ was in the world of spirits he taught the spirits of the righteous to prepare them to teach the spirits of those that did not receive the gospel in mortality.

I hate to bash apart anything, but "Sheol" is, IIRC, the Hebrew word for "the grave". Mistranslated (and misinterpreted) by Latin and then into English, you have the word "Hell".

I'd check with my pastor, were I you, as my knowledge of religion can be sketchy at best. I'm Christian, but I don't brag about it. I've been staying out of this discussion for that very reason, but I just thought I'd share this little, nonconsequential bit.

Thanks for the input.

Perhaps if there are any Jews reading this thread they could tell us a bit more. 


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Deus Siddis on April 05, 2006, 09:24:28 pm
Quote
This is one of the reasons that The Church of Jesus Christ believes in our rather large cannon of scripture namely the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price.

So what is the point of the whole multiple-wives thing? Why can't a wife take multiple husbands? (Or have I misunderstood mormon's concept of polygamy?) Doesn't this make marriage less meaningful?


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: Lukipela on April 05, 2006, 09:38:31 pm
Do you mean a protest in general, or a flag burning fest in particular?
I haven't heard of any protest against the treatment of this man (tough I miss a lot of things), and it is quite interesting.
But if you're wondering why we don't engage in flag-burning I think it's because even the fanatics are aware it's a quite silly thing to do. If I burned the flag of a country with witch a disagree, all that would accomplish is turning people from siad country, that might have agreed with me, agaisnt me.

I was thinking more of a general protest, I used the flagburning as an example of a extreme protest. Camping outside embassies of countries that enforce sharia law, demonstarting and protesting was closer to what I meant. Yet, noone seems to be doing that.

Quote from: Deus_Siddis
We didn't think it was christianity, specifically, that was under attack. Hell, many or most of us aren't christians anyway. An anti-everyone thing is actually worse for us. Of course, if most christians really thought they were specifically under attack, it would make them more likely to follow your advise and protest the man's persecution.

Who are these "we" you speak of? Unless you are the spokesman for some larger group, you might want to not speak for anyone else. Just because you didn't think so didn't mean everyone did. Someone simply looking at the topic without prior knowledge of the incident would have no way of knowing this. And if you reread what I already told you:

Quote from: Lukipela
To follow up, the reason I'm doing it is because otherwise a topic name like this is easily misinterpreted. In several places, I've already met people of the firm belief that this is an Afgani anti-christian thing, when it in fact is simply an anti-everyone thing.

You'll find that I am making no claim that someone here had misunderstood it, only that it could be misunderstood.  Which is why I tohught it would be good to ensure that it wouldn't be misunderstood. I am aware that it is briefly mentioned in the article quoted by the OP, but it is just one line, and easy to miss. Comprende?

As for what I don't understand,

Quote from: XR4-IT
Quote
We also believe that families can be together in heaven, and that marriage need not end at death, but that husband and wife can stand together through eternity.

Kind words, but meaningless against the harsh truth. I wonder what you would tell one who believed and was then betrayed by such a lie.
I was curios why out of all the beliefs of mine that I have listed, you did not like this one.

Where did this exchange happen? I only find it in your post  XR, not in any previous one.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: Arne on April 05, 2006, 11:16:08 pm
By the way, mormons have the most awesome star/planet names I'll be sure to include these in any random star-map generator I write. Sort desc.

  • Os
  • Flis
  • Shineflis
  • Kible
  • Oansli (didn't Elite have a system called this?)
  • Way-oh-ox-oan (crazy!)
  • Waine
  • Venisti
  • Vusel
  • Zip
  • Limdi
  • Kae-e-vanrash (Sounds like some generic RPG demon name)
  • Enish-go-on dosh (my favorite!)
  • Oliblish
  • Kolob (used in Battlestar Galactica, sounds like a root vegitable they eat in Poland though)


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Draxas on April 06, 2006, 12:12:07 am
Quote
All we really know about Jesus is what is in the Bible and other holy books, and from what is written in those books we know he had died and took up his body again.
Christians gain understanding that what is in the Bible and other scripture (ancient or otherwise) are truth because of conformation from the Holy Ghost.
We believe that the Holy Ghost is sent to men form God to comfort us, give us direction in our lives, and teach us truth.
As to my uses of the word glory, think of it as receiving different levels of Heaven after the resurrection of the body. The level of glory one attains is based on our merits in mortality, and our faith in the Atonement of the Christ the Holy Messiah. The Atonement is the sacrifice that Jesus made for mankind and through repentance and obedience to the laws of God one can be washed clean through the sacrifice that Christ made for us; therefore we can be admitted clean to stand in the presence of God after the time of the resurrection.

Long definition. Glory = Good (ie not evil then.) So why did you christians switch from believing in reincarnation, to believing in going from one life on to heaven? Also, what is the retirement plan for you and your competitors-- In short, what is the Christian concept of heaven like exactly, and how does it compare to the Islamic or Jewish Paradise/Reincarnation?

As far as I am aware, the Jewish plan isn't terribly exciting. You die, and take a dirt nap. The end, at least until the messiah shows up. Then the dead are revived, and all get to live in Jerusalem together, or something... That's about where things get pretty sketchy. I'm not really the most learned scholar on the subject.

Quote
I never thought of it that way.

I thought that it was because the line of priesthood that was held by the Sons of Aaron and the Levites was broken, and because of that there was no one left with the authority to perform the ordinances of sacrifice.

I could be wrong though. I don’t know that many Jews, and they could still be conferring the priesthood on the Sons of Aaron to this day.

Draxas if you happen to read this let me know.

Read, and responded as per your request.

To this day, members of the tribe of Levi, and the Cohen (priesthood) are qualified, and even required, for certain services and blessings, especially on holy days. However, there is (as far as I'm aware) no formal training for these positions anymore.

Quote
I wonder why the Jews stopped too I mean if they dont believe Jesus was the Mesiah then they need to continue giving burnt offerings for thier sins.

Draxas Please stay. Only guy im gettin upset with is Deus but thats just cause he seems to like to twist words and stuff. But I still listen to him. So u most deffinately deserve to stay voice ure oppinion.(As long as u respect what we say too anyways)

It's a tough call. I have some choice words about some things that have been said, but I know when to excersize restraint. However, you can see one of those statements in the quote above. Use your imagination, please don't make me elaborate, and above all, practice what you preach.

Quote
I hate to bash apart anything, but "Sheol" is, IIRC, the Hebrew word for "the grave". Mistranslated (and misinterpreted) by Latin and then into English, you have the word "Hell".
Quote
Thanks for the input.

Perhaps if there are any Jews reading this thread they could tell us a bit more.

I've heard the term before, but my Hebrew is rusty at best (more like atrocious and nonexistent in reality), so I can't really vouch for that. Seems reasonable; it wouldn't be the first bit of Hebrew that was mangled and mistranslated, intentionally or otherwise.

Quote
Where did this exchange happen? I only find it in your post  XR, not in any previous one.

Not to insinuate anything, but there is a telltale edit on the post DS made just before that one... I'm inclined to believe that he may have regretted typing that out, and tried to go back and remove it before anyone saw... But it looks like he wasn't quick enough. Ah well, these things happen, I can't count the number of times I've done the same thing (on other forums).

Anyway, I think I'll try to fade into the background again now, at least until someone brings up another set of points I feel the need to pick apart and add useless information to. :P


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Deus Siddis on April 06, 2006, 12:29:24 am
Quote
I have some choice words about some things that have been said, but I know when to excersize restraint.

If they're about me, go ahead. It really doesn't matter, we'll all see who was right when old grimm comes a' knockin'. :)

Seriously, holy wars and disputes are much better fought through text.


Quote
Not to insinuate anything, but there is a telltale edit on the post DS made just before that one... I'm inclined to believe that he may have regretted typing that out, and tried to go back and remove it before anyone saw... But it looks like he wasn't quick enough. Ah well, these things happen, I can't count the number of times I've done the same thing (on other forums).

Yea, that was me, I often post things and then proof-read them, because it is hard to read in these little black boxes. I didn't read what you said carefully enough (specifically, "in heaven".) My bad.


Since you seem eager to explain the ideals of your somewhat mysterious, and perhaps misunderstood religion (by fellow christians and outsiders alike), I'd point out that what most people don't understand, is mostly the (one-gendered) polygamy (and maybe the secret temples somewhat as well.) Why is this allowed, in your faith, and opposed to by your counterparts (within christianity, obviously.)


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Draxas on April 06, 2006, 12:40:19 am
Actually, I have none of those choice words for you, Deus. As a man of science, I always enjoy watching people approach these rediculous debates from a logical standpoint (though I prefer playing devil's advocate myself). Carry on! ;)


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Zeep-Eeep on April 06, 2006, 02:30:50 am
To answer an earilier question, the Name That Religion game
I play is usually in person. That is, I'll spot someone on the
bus or in a mall. Anyone who holds still and appears to stand
out in some religious fashion. (Carrying a Bible, holding
prayer beads.)
I try to get as accurate as possible. For example,
Catholic, Mormon, Baptist. I'm pretty good at pegging
Christian groups. Since there are very few Jewish or
Muslim people in this area, I generally just shoot for a
general category there, rather than a specific group.

Anyway, it looks like I got a point for this one. Thanks XR4-IT.

PS. As I understand it (and I hope someone will correct me if
I'm mistaken) but most Mormons don't like the idea of
polygamy. I think it's a case of a sort of brnach off the main stream
Mormon faith. As I understand it, the church of LDS doesn't offically
support marrying multiple partners.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Ivan Ivanov on April 06, 2006, 11:01:52 am
I was thinking more of a general protest, I used the flagburning as an example of a extreme protest. Camping outside embassies of countries that enforce sharia law, demonstarting and protesting was closer to what I meant. Yet, noone seems to be doing that.

I've been thinking about, and I came to the conclusion that Europeans (tough I can't speak for any country but mine) protest for more pragmatic reasons.
There are loads of protests by labour unions (especially if the government is about to discuss the budget), ssome anti-globalisation protests, every once in a while people protest in order to change a particular policy of our country, but the only protest that could be put in the same category as protesting the tratment of the Afgani man, was a recent one about the presidential elections in Byelarus.

Outside of that and maybe a few anti-Bush, anti-war in Iraq war protests going on from time to time, there was absolutely nothing happened in ages that could be compared to the hypothetical protest you speak of.

And quite frankly I hasitate to make this comparison between the mentioned protests.
Byelarus is our neighbor and we're involved in the war in Iraq, so it's not like there is nothing to loose/gain in those issues, whereas Afganistan is far away and there are no Afgani minorities over here.
So maybe the reason why no one is protesting is because people think we should mind our own buisness... or they just don't care.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: XR4-IT on April 06, 2006, 05:42:01 pm
Quote
This is one of the reasons that The Church of Jesus Christ believes in our rather large cannon of scripture namely the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price.

So what is the point of the whole multiple-wives thing? Why can't a wife take multiple husbands? (Or have I misunderstood mormon's concept of polygamy?) Doesn't this make marriage less meaningful?

I’ll gladly answer your question.

First the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints dose not at this time practice polygamy at this time, but we did in times past.

In the Bible some of the great patriarchs had multiple wives, like Abraham and Jacob. The Book of Mormon has this to say on polygamy: Jacob 2 : 27 – 30

 27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any aman among you have save it be bone• cwife; and concubines he shall have none;
 
 28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the achastity of women. And bwhoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
 
 29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or acursed• be the land for their sakes.
 
 30 30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up aseed• unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

As to why women don’t take more than one husband, I don’t have a good answer for that.

I don’t see it as making marriage less meaningful, as long as all in the marriage hold up the covenant.

I am however glad that I don’t have to do it my self.

Also only a very small percent of the church ever practiced polygamy when the church did do it.

edit
I would have answered sooner but my power was out and I could not get back on until now.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: XR4-IT on April 06, 2006, 09:36:44 pm
Ok as I was rereading the thread I saw that there was a question asked of me about our temples in general.

I’ll try to give the best general answer I can on this subject.

Fist of all you have to understand that we believe that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was restored by revelation and also by heavenly messengers, angels if you will, to the Prophet Joseph Smith.

Jesus taught that of the importance of priesthood and revelation to his disciples in Matthew 16:15-19.

 15 He saith unto them, But whom say aye• that I am?
 
 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the aChrist, the bSon of the cliving God.
 
 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon aBar•-jona: for flesh and blood hath not brevealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
 
 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this arock• I will build my bchurch; and the gates of chell shall not dprevail• against it.
 
 19 And I will agive• unto thee the bkeys of the ckingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt dbind• on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

We believe that the “rock” Jesus spoke of was not just Peter, but also the revelation that Peter had received from God, and that it was the rock of revelation that Christ built his church on. You will also note that Peter acted as head of the church after Jesus ascended into heaven.

We also believe that keys of the kingdom of heaven are necessary to bind in heaven covenants and ordinances that are performed here on Earth.

This binding or sealing power was restored when Elijah appeared to Joseph Smith this happened in fulfillment to prophecy that was given in Malachi 4:5-6

5 ¶ Behold, I will asend• you bElijah• the prophet cbefore• the coming of the dgreat• and dreadful eday• of the LORD:
 
 6 And he shall aturn the bheart• of the cfathers to the dchildren, and the heart of the echildren to their fathers, lest I come and fsmite• the gearth with a hcurse.

Now to Temples. We use temples for ceremonies, like the Israel did in the Old Testament; we do not perform sacrifices in the temple because there was no need to do so after the law was fulfilled by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

The main ceremonies that are performed in the Temple are the Endowment and Marriage Sealing.

The Endowment is a ceremony in which we learn about our relationship with God and his plan for us. We also make covenants with God to obey his commandments, and he to bless us as we keep the commandments.

Marriage Sealing or commonly referred to as Sealing, is a wedding ceremony that allows marriage to continue after death, and through eternity in heaven.

We do these ceremonies along with Baptisms for the Dead in behalf of our dead ancestors who did not have the opportunity to hear the gospel in this life, which may have chosen to fallow it in the world of spirits; Hence the harts of the children turning to there fathers.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Ejap on April 08, 2006, 02:44:14 am
Well that was *interesting* to read XR4-IT, but you’re long winded.  :o


Title: Ask a Mormon!
Post by: guesst on April 11, 2006, 02:59:23 am
Well that was *interesting* to read XR4-IT, but you’re long winded.  :o

Honestly, it was not a simple question. What did you expect. Although I (the other resident Mormon on these boards) would have answerd the question a little differently. Oh, XR4-IT did a dandy job. But my answers would have gone...

Temples -
Why doesn't your religion have temples? Where in the new testiment oes it say, "Verily and behold, ye shall no longer worship at the temple. Synagogs should just about do it, only we're going to call them "churches" now." You find me that reference.

Now, in these latter-days we recieved the revelation that not only did God never do away with Temples, but that we were to commence the building of new ones. That revelation can be found in Doctrine and Convenants 58. (I'd link to it, but http://scriptures.lds.org seems to be having some trouble right now.)

Polygamy -
Doctrine and Convenants 132 lays out the intricacies and details of eternal marrage. In it polygamy is detailed as being no against Gods will and actually a part of the new and everlasting covenant of marage. For some reason this is a difficult thing for people to accept. But polygamy is not and never was about sex, so get that out of your head. If you can, read D&C 132 and if you still have questions, well, XR4-IT or I will attempt to answer them the best we can.


Title: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Deus Siddis on April 11, 2006, 05:38:00 am
"Why doesn't your religion have temples?"

We do have one, the Hand of Nod. There's also one we use that was built buy the Xel'Naga, but it is hard to make the pilgrimage there without a wormhole gateway.

Seriously, I said I was agnostic, so what would I have a temple to (other than my cat?) And who cares about temples, anyway. People might just be a little curious that they are closed to outsiders and that the ceremonies that take place within are often secret.


"You find me that reference."

The book of endurium, passage 54-12.


"In it polygamy is detailed as being no against Gods will and actually a part of the new and everlasting covenant of marage."

So why not allow multi-husband marriages?


"But polygamy is not and never was about sex, so get that out of your head."

I didn't say I had it in my head. So then what kind of relationship is it supposed to be? Are all but one of the wives expected to keep their virginity?


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Zeep-Eeep on April 11, 2006, 12:49:29 pm
The Mormon church offically did away with multiple marrage
partners in 1904, 14 years after the US government outlawed
the practice.



Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Deus Siddis on April 11, 2006, 02:36:20 pm
But didn't Mormon himself practice or at least proclaim that polygamy should be acceptable?


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: XR4-IT on April 11, 2006, 06:08:37 pm
But didn't Mormon himself practice or at least proclaim that polygamy should be acceptable?

Mormon never said anything on the subject that is recorded in the Book of Mormon.

Mormon was an ancient Prophet Historian who lived on the American continent about 400 AD. He compiled and abridged a record of his people the Nephites, who were a branch of the house of Israel that left Jerusalem about 600 BC at the time of the Prophet Jeremiah.

For those of you who are not familiar with the Book of Mormon it is a record of this branch Israel that live as I said on the American continent, The book tells about there dealings with God. The book also tells us that after his resurrection Jesus Christ visited these people and taught them the gospel.

Mormon and his son Moroni wrote the record on gold plates, and after there civilization was destroyed by wickedness and wars, Moroni hid the plates in a hill.  Later God sent Moroni as an angel to Joseph Smith and told him where to find the plats. Joseph was given means to translate this other testament of Jesus Christ in to English, and later the book was translated in to other modern languages.       


Title: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Deus Siddis on April 11, 2006, 11:17:19 pm
Wow. So then how did the Nephites get to North America? Isn't that sort of hard to do, from where they started?

Also, where are these gold plates? If they were brought to public attention, they would maybe turn some heads, assuming this is all true.

And about Joseph Smith, didn't he endorse/practice polygamy?


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Neonlare on April 11, 2006, 11:25:08 pm
Out there, they are a bunch of over-extremist nut-cases, to be honest, I'm not sure it would do so much harm to storm in there and change thoose laws, they breach humanitarian rights...

One thing decent about the Ur-Quan Kzer-Za, they'll end up destroying evil people in what they do.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: XR4-IT on April 11, 2006, 11:42:31 pm
Wow. So then how did the Nephites get to North America? Isn't that sort of hard to do, from where they started?

The Book of Mormon reads that during the time of Jeremiah the Prophet the people of Jerusalem where in a state of wickedness, and that the city was going to be destroyed. Lehi (Nephi’s father) was warned of the impending destruction by God, and was told that he his family and a small group of people were to flee from the land of Jerusalem. The Lord directed them in the wilderness too the sea (ocean), and commanded and instructed them to build a ship so that they could travel to a promised land; the American continents.

Quote
Also, where are these gold plates? If they were brought to public attention, they would maybe turn some heads, assuming this is all true.
Yes they were brought to public attention, and a good many people had some things to say about it.  The testimonies of several people who saw the gold plats are printed in every copy of the Book of Mormon.

After the translation was completed Moroni took them from the prophet, and they remain in his possession to this day.

Quote
And about Joseph Smith, didn't he endorse/practice polygamy?
Yes.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Zeep-Eeep on April 12, 2006, 01:16:52 am
Yes, J. Smith supported the multi-marrage thing. But
the Church of LDS forbid the proactise in 1904 (14 years
after the US government told them to knock it off).

Just to clear up one point. From what I understand
of the origin of the translation and the gold plates,
good ol' Joe was the only one to actually see them.
Then, once the translatio nwas finished, an angel
came to take them away. This seems awfully
suspecious in my mind. The only piece of physical
evidence was taken away by an angel?

I thought the Nephites were destroyed by a rival clan
on the North American land? Doesn't the BoM suggest
the rival civilization were the same people we call
First Nations/Natives?


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: XR4-IT on April 12, 2006, 05:42:08 pm
Just to clear up one point. From what I understand
of the origin of the translation and the gold plates,
good ol' Joe was the only one to actually see them.
Then, once the translatio nwas finished, an angel
came to take them away. This seems awfully
suspecious in my mind. The only piece of physical
evidence was taken away by an angel?
There were others who saw them. To clear up confusion I’ll post the above stated testimony of witnesses.

THE TESTIMONY OF
THREE WITNESSES
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.


OLIVER COWDERY
DAVID WHITMER
MARTIN HARRIS

THE TESTIMONY OF
EIGHT WITNESSES
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

CHRISTIAN WHITMER
JACOB WHITMER
PETER WHITMER, JUN.
JOHN WHITMER
 HIRAM PAGE
JOSEPH SMITH, SEN.
HYRUM SMITH
SAMUEL H. SMITH
 
Quote
I thought the Nephites were destroyed by a rival clan
on the North American land? Doesn't the BoM suggest
the rival civilization were the same people we call
First Nations/Natives?
Yes you are corect.

After the party reach the American continent, and the death of Lehi, the group divided into two nations the Lamanites, and the Nephites. In the end the Lamanites destroyed the Nephites after they had fallen into wickedness.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Zeep-Eeep on April 12, 2006, 08:10:23 pm
You know, for a non-Mormon, I think I'm doing pretty
well at this. Can I get a prize or something?
Here on Mormon Jepordy .....


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: guesst on April 13, 2006, 01:51:05 am
Doing well at what? Getting all your facts wrong so they have to be corrected? Good job there, Zeepy.

Reading that again, it can be taken rather like I'm being mean. Which I'm not. Entirely. Maybe a little.

What I'm trying to say is, Zeep, if there's a contest for enflaming a Mormon to make verbose posts, you've taken first prize. And before you say anything, DS, don't even vie for 2nd. You only get first in proving why nobody likes religious discussions with agnostics.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Deus Siddis on April 13, 2006, 02:42:23 pm
Quote
What I'm trying to say is, Zeep, if there's a contest for enflaming a Mormon to make verbose posts, you've taken first prize.

Yes, because he finds the disappearing plates a little fishy, he is trying to inflame you.


Quote
And before you say anything, DS, don't even vie for 2nd.

Ah shit, I SO wanted to win the "enflaming a Mormon to make verbose posts" contest. Everyone back home had such high hopes that I'd at least take second.


Quote
You only get first in proving why nobody likes religious discussions with agnostics.

 :'( You don't mean that !  :'( :'( :'(

Nobody? As in you?

I (and my name is not nobody) don't dislike being in a religious discussion when I'm in it with myself (who is an agnostic, from what I've heard.) I also don't mind other agnostics or atheists or religions of anykind in religious discussions.

Seriously, you don't even think any agnostics want a religious discussion that has themselves or other agnostics in it?

. . .Or is an agnostic just nobody to you?


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: guesst on April 13, 2006, 06:28:37 pm
I had seriosuly hoped to catch my post before you got a chance to respond to it DS. It was mean and unnecessary and I regreteed it shortly after I wrote it, but unfortunately too late to do anything about it. I appologize for intentionally offending you.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Deus Siddis on April 13, 2006, 06:56:32 pm
Quote
I had seriosuly hoped to catch my post before you got a chance to respond to it DS.

Don't worry, I'm sure an angle will be along soon to remove your post from the earthly realm. Hehehe, sorry.


Quote
It was mean and unnecessary and I regreteed it shortly after I wrote it, but unfortunately too late to do anything about it. I appologize for intentionally offending you.

Fear not, for I am not offended (never was, actually.) I simply take every opportunity I am given to be melodramatic. I really don't take religion seriously at all, which is why I enjoy these sorts of threads. Its also why I call myself an agnostic. Those who call themselves Atheists usually believe there is/are no god(ess)(e)(s). I just don't believe or care on this subject, unless it is interesting or funny (and it usually is both.)


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: XR4-IT on April 13, 2006, 08:08:14 pm
Yes well I wish there were more people viewing this thread, because I liked getting more peoples views and questions, but the news story that started this is old. O well. 


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Death 999 on April 14, 2006, 05:12:59 pm
Speaking of the news story, he was released and left the country safely.

All's well that ends well, right?


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Zeep-Eeep on April 14, 2006, 10:27:00 pm
It sets an interesting base. I mean, perhaps the flood
gates will open and Islamic people will start fleeing
their religion en mass. Or maybe, just maybe, this
will give some people ideas about tolerance. A theme
I'm told appears a lot in Islamic and Christian religions.

Okay, I'm sorry. I'm done being silly now. I think it's
good the guy has been set free and has taken up residence in
a safer environment.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: guesst on April 15, 2006, 07:28:56 pm
Hmmm, this has been going on for years. The've met with varing degrees of consequences. Like I said, I knew one a few years back who'd father, in an act of mercy, lobodimized him, just a little bit, so that he could practice his religion. It's not been often they've recieved press coverage, but it probably doesn't make a difference. Especally if it ends in happily ever after. Maybe a mayrter or two will shake things up, but I'm not voulenteering.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Deus Siddis on April 16, 2006, 05:21:08 am
Martyrs wanted, now hiring.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: meep-eep on April 17, 2006, 02:46:01 am
Martyrs wanted, now hiring.
"Good pension plan"


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: NECRO-99 on April 17, 2006, 09:47:22 am
But don't you fellows read the comics? There's no room left in heaven for them!


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Zeep-Eeep on April 19, 2006, 01:45:29 am
I might sign up if their life insurance was better.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: Decebal on April 20, 2006, 11:14:03 am
Maybe now we should kill every human being who converted to another religion  ::)


Title: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Deus Siddis on April 20, 2006, 03:32:30 pm
"Everytime I try to get out, they pull me back in."


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: NECRO-99 on April 20, 2006, 07:09:14 pm
On a scathing side-note, the creator of this thread and the wonderful "OMFGPETABBQ" thread hasn't logged in for quite some time now.

I say mission accomplished, one less troll.

NECRO takes out his knife and cuts another tally mark into the side of his monitor.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: Mr._Jiggles on June 28, 2006, 01:04:09 am
you know what i say?


Go to hell....


I have a life.

I have a job.

I will occasionally stroll by this site every week and read some of the topics. I like to read from the sidelines insted of participating and you should respect that. I have made a reasonable topic about a "past" current event (joy, another oxymoron). Funny you choose to say this while I was gone. And about the PETA topic, i might have been a little over emotional about the topic but it certainly wasn't OMFGPETABBQ. Good job with the tally thing, go buy yourself another monitor, because i just bookmarked this site again due to your smartass remark.



Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: meep-eep on June 28, 2006, 01:35:21 am
Didn't I warn you once before about large pictures in signatures? In fact, didn't I warn you twice before?
Get rid of it, or I will.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: Mr._Jiggles on June 28, 2006, 01:51:46 am
Not that i remember,  It would have helped if you had sent me a message...

I'll have it fixed by tommorrow...


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Deus Siddis on June 28, 2006, 04:40:36 am
It's at times like these, that I am glad to only be a mod for a calmer forum.

Is it fair to ask how it could take 24 hours to delete your sig? Why not just put a link to that ytmnd in your sig instead (it is pointless without the music.)


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: Lukipela on June 28, 2006, 08:21:34 am
I might sign up if their life insurance was better.

It is. Martyrs quite often get given a large sum of money, that then provides for the family they leave behind.

Quote
It's at times like these, that I am glad to only be a mod for a calmer forum.

You're a mod somewhere? Must be an interesting place.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: meep-eep on June 28, 2006, 11:51:19 am
I'll have it fixed by tommorrow...

And your ban will expire in 2 weeks.

Get rid of it means get rid of it, which you could have done in the time it took you to write that post.



Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: Lukipela on June 28, 2006, 12:36:09 pm
I'll have it fixed by tommorrow...

And your ban will expire in 2 weeks.

Get rid of it means get rid of it, which you could have done in the time it took you to write that post.

Dare I say pwned?


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Deus Siddis on June 28, 2006, 03:23:47 pm
Quote
You're a mod somewhere? Must be an interesting place.

Yes, so interesting in fact, that over the past year or so, I've had to delete a post (because the poster asked me to) and break a line in one so that it didn't take too much width (though my screen is small, so that was probably overkill.)


Quote
Dare I say pwned?

EDIT, oops, I missed meep's come back. Good stuff. :)


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: Halleck on June 28, 2006, 03:32:57 pm
I'll have it fixed by tommorrow...
And your ban will expire in 2 weeks.
Ouch... burned.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: NECRO-99 on June 30, 2006, 10:52:01 pm
Mmmkay, counter point time.

you know what i say?
'ere we go...
 
Quote
Go to hell....
Go to hell? Is that a very Christian thing to tell me to do?

Quote
I have a life.
Amazing!

Quote
I have a job.
You too? Crazy!

Quote
I will occasionally stroll by this site every week and read some of the topics. I like to read from the sidelines insted of participating and you should respect that.
You do -not- like to read from the sidelines, you like to troll and use emotionally-based, informationally biased rants to suck people in to your threads.

Quote
I have made a reasonable topic about a "past" current event (joy, another oxymoron).
Your topics don't look "reasonable" when they end in a deluge of exclamation marks, or when you have to reaffirm your own statement by putting (true!) behind the topic itself. They look hyped and troll-ish.

Quote
Funny you choose to say this while I was gone.
I honestly didn't know if you were temporarily gone or had left for good.

Quote
And about the PETA topic, i might have been a little over emotional about the topic but it certainly wasn't OMFGPETABBQ.
Oh? Allow me to quote you a few times from that particular thread:
Quote
thought you guys might want to know the truth...
"truth" is a subjective term.
Quote
those hypocritical bastards....
This sight also uses raw emotion to pull mostly the younger generation that has been targeted more because you know, young people are like clay (easy to tell them whats what)
My favorite, here...it speaks volumes for you, especially because it follows right after what you said above (even though you deleted it from your post...)
Quote
DAMN YOU PETA YOU LIARS!!!

Quote
Good job with the tally thing, go buy yourself another monitor, because i just bookmarked this site again due to your smartass remark.
Excellent! I hope to help you become a more objective discussant! That is, when you can come back...

NECRO takes his knife out again and, with permission, cuts yet another tally mark in the side of meep-eep's monitor.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: Lance_Vader on July 01, 2006, 05:21:31 am
If this wasn't so dated, I'd give it its own thread.  However, this seemed to be the closest place to put it.

http://www.exile.ru/2006-February-10/arise_ye_danes.html  (http://www.exile.ru/2006-February-10/arise_ye_danes.html)

Yes, it's old.  It's about that Danish Cartoon that made such a ruckus.  More accurately, it's about the Danes, and how they react to violence now vs. a long time ago.

It's politically incorrect.  It's kinda wrong/incorrect in a few minor places.  But the heart of the argument is great.  There are times when I'm proud to be Danish (at least a little), though there are other times when I claim German or English heritage instead.  When Denmark so recently bent over for Islam's religious extremity, I was a German.  When we talk about vikings, then I'll be Danish again.

I love America!


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: Lukipela on July 04, 2006, 09:39:27 am
Counter pont mania

Relax D'thunk ,and put the knife away. This is a pillow forum, remember?

Hits Necro with a pillow of tranquility to calm his apparently boiling blood.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Deus Siddis on July 04, 2006, 03:46:54 pm
His name isn't "Necor," Neal. :)


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: Lukipela on July 04, 2006, 05:16:56 pm
My mistake, Siddius ;)

I meant to do that


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: NECRO-99 on July 04, 2006, 05:39:43 pm
"Boiling blood"? That wasn't anger. Anger shows you're losing an argument.
I'm a clone, goofball. Clones don't get angry.Well they do, but not at stuff like this.
Sorry if the knife scared you- it's for the tallies, thats all. Here.


NECRO draws a big pillow on the side of Luki's monitor.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: Vic on July 09, 2006, 01:34:33 am
After reading all this, this is turning into a flame war. I think this topic was for discussion on the issue, not chipping away at peoples ideas, values, and reputations. All and all, everybody please stop fighting.

Moderator please lock this thread, it has strayed to far away from topic, plus the event is months old...

And Necro, why would you mark your computer for something as moronic as that ;)


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Deus Siddis on July 09, 2006, 01:57:38 am
Okay, so for future reference, please check the dates of posts before complaining about "flame wars" (even if they were flame wars, they are obviously over at this point) and always remember to take your meds before posting. ;)


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: Novus on July 09, 2006, 02:05:49 am
Vic, I suggest you take some time to familiarise yourself with a forum before getting too involved in forum politics. One of the primary reasons for the off-topic forum is to have a place to present goofy but interesting ideas and have them vehemently attacked by rabid regulars (see the "Cool Comic Booklets" thread, for example). This allows us to keep the General and Technical discussions on topic.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: NECRO-99 on July 09, 2006, 06:07:02 am
4 posts and you start the insults. You're going to go far, I can tell.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: Vic on July 12, 2006, 11:25:51 pm
Right you are Novus, this is a very hostile forum it looks like  :D

Necro, i was asking a question, asking "Necro, why would you mark your computer for something as moronic as that" is not even compared to the comments submitted by you in dozens of topics.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: Novus on July 12, 2006, 11:47:58 pm
Right you are Novus, this is a very hostile forum it looks like  :D
Nah, many of us just have quirky senses of humour. We also have our own particular brand of forum etiquette (I suggest you lose the image in the sig block before meep-eep decides to ban you, too). Most of the flaming was in jest (although the banning wasn't).


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: Vic on July 13, 2006, 12:50:39 am
Whats wrong with signitures?

This one is small and doesn't have animations...

Are Signitures restricted because they cause problems for people trying to load the page?  :-\

Looks like Mr. Jiggles got banned for his signiture.  Is he really banned for two weeks for something moronic as that. I read his posts following up to his ban.

Mr. Jiggles Quote: "I'll have it fixed by tommorrow..."


Factoring in this quote I can say (Select one)

1. Hes lazy.  ;)

2. He might have wanted to photoshop it later to reduce size.

3. It was late at night and he wanted to sleep

I was wondering also, what did his signiture look like and how big was it?





Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: meep-eep on July 13, 2006, 01:06:33 am
100 pixels in height is not small. It takes up quite a significant part of a the vertical space, and it does so for each posting that you make. It is also distracting.
Sure, it's not as big as what some people have tried, and at least it's not animated, but still it's too big.
So as a moderator, I'm asking you to shrink or remove it.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: NECRO-99 on July 14, 2006, 02:37:22 am
Sorry. Cranky that night.

Who is that guy anyway? Looks familiar.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: Lukipela on July 24, 2006, 01:43:14 pm
So what happened to the original topic man? Is he now living happily ever after in Italy? Or did he go somewhere else?


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: Lance_Vader on July 26, 2006, 08:27:19 pm
The original topic, after seeing that his services were no longer required, split to Maui, where he is happily vacationing with his wife and three child topics.

Oohhhh, wait.  You said the original topic MAN.  Nope, no idea what happened to him.  Probably just a short-lived flaming troll.  Or falling star?


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: Ivan Ivanov on July 26, 2006, 09:51:47 pm
The original topic, after seeing that his services were no longer required, split to Maui, where he is happily vacationing with his wife and three child topics.

Oohhhh, wait.  You said the original topic MAN.  Nope, no idea what happened to him.  Probably just a short-lived flaming troll.  Or falling star?

No not that man.
The man that the original topic mentions, the Afghani.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: Mr._Jiggles on July 31, 2006, 07:03:20 pm
Great way to cause an unnecessary vendetta Lance.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: Lukipela on August 04, 2006, 08:27:25 pm
Great way to cause an unnecessary vendetta Lance.

A vendetta? soon you'l be making him an offer he can't refuse bambino. And yes, Ivan is correct. Last I heard, Italy accepted him as a refugee. I was ust wonderign if anyone has been following the story since. If there is a story that is.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Deus Siddis on August 05, 2006, 12:16:08 am
Quote
A vendetta? soon you'l be making him an offer he can't refuse bambino.

But little did Luki know, that by standing up against the internet mobster, he had made himself a target for an e-wacking.


Quote
I was ust wonderign if anyone has been following the story since.

Yes, he eventually migrated up to france, where he lived happily in downtown paris, until he was beaten to death by a mob of angry muslim immigrants, during a riot set off by a french newspaper's rendering of Mohammed's penis.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: Mr._Jiggles on August 05, 2006, 12:49:00 am
Quote
Yes, he eventually migrated up to france, where he lived happily in downtown paris, until he was beaten to death by a mob of angry muslim immigrants, during a riot set off by a french newspaper's rendering of Mohammed's penis.

Just when I thought this couldn't get anymore derailed...  ;D

Havn't seen that cartoon yet  :o



Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: meep-eep on August 05, 2006, 01:08:59 am
/me pictures Mr._Jiggles googling for "Mohammed's penis".
/me pictures confounded Google employees noticing a search for "Mohammed's penis" on their big screen of searches


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: Lukipela on August 05, 2006, 04:23:54 pm
Be sure to make a google image search for that, I'm sure it'll produce some farily interesting pictures.

I think anyone monitoring google searches is pretty hardened already. When LotR was released, I read somewhere that there was not only a huge amount of searches for Legolas porn, but also a disturbingly a large amount of people googling for Gimli porn.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: meep-eep on August 06, 2006, 04:30:16 am
I don't think they're really monitoring, but I've read somewhere that they have some big screen somewhere where searches are displayed.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: Mr._Jiggles on August 06, 2006, 06:15:09 am
Quote: meep-eep pictures Mr._Jiggles googling for "Mohammed's penis".


Thats even more disturbing that you think I would be googling it  :-\


Im more of a Yahoo person  ;D




Seriously im just kidding, but really Meep-Epp, never in my right mind would I be looking at that, that is way to disgusting  :P


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: Lukipela on August 07, 2006, 06:42:26 pm
I don't think they're really monitoring, but I've read somewhere that they have some big screen somewhere where searches are displayed.

I don't think the example I mentioned was from google, but rather from some other sort of organisation that monitors searches. Or maybe it's an urban legend, who knows.
You think they have one gigantic screen somewhere that is just filled with searches all the time? Changing and shifting, like quicksand. All the darkness of the net, contained within one screen. The madness of this electronic ocean, struggling to free itself, squirming against its physical bonds, and wishing to wreak terrible havoc upon us. Lets hope not.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: meep-eep on August 07, 2006, 07:06:28 pm
I think it was some large projection screen, and the searches are scrolling past. Probably not all searches; perhaps just from one server. All just for fun. There may even have been a photo. It's probably been a couple of years ago when I read it.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
Post by: Lukipela on August 08, 2006, 12:54:09 pm
I think it was some large projection screen, and the searches are scrolling past. Probably not all searches; perhaps just from one server. All just for fun. There may even have been a photo. It's probably been a couple of years ago when I read it.


Still, can't do much for your empleyy morale to have a large screen that is slowly cirling through "hot midgets", "nubile rocs" and "DOTT erotica". If we could conserve this, I'd start doing searches like "I know you can see me, kil lyour coworkers" just to see if I could get a subliminal message through.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Deus Siddis on August 08, 2006, 03:15:49 pm
Quote
If we could conserve this, I'd start doing searches like "I know you can see me, kil lyour coworkers" just to see if I could get a subliminal message through.

Hehe, a new weapon in the fight against big brother.


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Mugz the Sane on August 24, 2006, 09:15:17 am
religion, politics and urban legends... who can resist?

On religion: The moslems worship their image of God - Allah. The christians & neo-christians worship their image of God - Jehovah. And the Jews worship their image - Ychw, I think it is. Yahweh. Yachweh. Something like that.
The key point is that all three Gods are supposedly the same deity/entity. Sooo - if moslem attacks jew attacks christian, well... The Judaic/neo-Judaic religions (neo-Judaic referring to christianity and islam) could thus be said to be in a permanent state of theological war. Okay, we already know all this.

What I would LOVE to know is what God Himself thinks about all of this. If I was God (thank God I'm not) I'd make a policy of either letting them fight it out, or taking a personal hand:

'Okay, boys, kiss and make up!' cue sound of heads being banged together - hard!


Title: Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
Post by: Zeep-Eeep on August 24, 2006, 04:18:55 pm
From Dogma, pardon me if I fumble the quote:
The thing that bothers Him the most is the #$%@ that
gets carried out in His name."