The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release => General UQM Discussion => Topic started by: CZone on April 20, 2006, 04:03:26 am



Title: A guy can Dream can't he (SC Sequel)
Post by: CZone on April 20, 2006, 04:03:26 am
I would die a million times over with pure and utter joy if...

There existed a Starcontrol Massivly Multiplayer Online game.


Everyone would play as a ship captian for whatever race, you'd be able to fly around collecting resources from planets, or battling space Pirates, or evil Ur-Quan Remnants to gain experience and money which would let you upgrade your ships in various ways as well as increasing your abilities, letting you mine bigger scarier planets, blow up meaner bad ships, and whatnot.

Then the various storyline-quests could involve unlocking the mysteries of the precursers

You could even involve grouping into fleets for harder space encounters, or even "Raid Style" encounters where you need fleets of 20 or 30 other ships of various makes and styles to handle different aspects,  Earthling cruisers providing point defence, Pkunk Fury's spinning around taking out fast moving enemy projectiles,  Arilou's who can park themsevles next to the enemy engines without fear of colliding with them, thus slowing down the enemy -- etc etc.



Title: Re: A guy can Dream can't he (SC Sequel)
Post by: XR4-IT on April 20, 2006, 04:26:44 am
That would be cool, but I think that it sould be done after the sequel.

Make this ever questesk game like some sort of sinp off.


Title: Re: A guy can Dream can't he (SC Sequel)
Post by: TiLT on April 20, 2006, 06:37:49 am
OMG OMG, I want to be a level 45 Melnorme Barbarian with a +5 Vorpal Eluder!

... Or maybe I don't think a Star Control MMORPG would be a good idea.



Title: Re: A guy can Dream can't he (SC Sequel)
Post by: Halleck on April 20, 2006, 08:00:26 am
I would prefer a SC MMORPG to a remake of SC3... which isn't saying much.


Title: Re: A guy can Dream can't he (SC Sequel)
Post by: Wahooney on April 20, 2006, 08:54:01 am
Uhhh, you guys do know that TFB want to make a SC sequel right? They've even setup a petition at sc2.sourceforge.net.


Title: Re: A guy can Dream can't he (SC Sequel)
Post by: Neonlare on April 20, 2006, 10:27:56 am
No no no! he's not talking about leveling! It'd be pure skill, like Counter-Strike, not this level up crap.

You guys just don't see this :(.


Title: Re: A guy can Dream can't he (SC Sequel)
Post by: TiLT on April 20, 2006, 11:36:12 am
...to gain experience and money which would let you upgrade your ships in various ways as well as increasing your abilities, letting you mine bigger scarier planets, blow up meaner bad ships, and whatnot.

How is this not leveling?

In my opinion, a SC MMORPG would remove everything that's unique and interesting about the Star Control games, namely the funny and engaging dialogue, the fast and responsive ship-to-ship combat, and the epic storyline where YOU make the main impact. If you know how to include those three things in a MMORPG, give me a call. You see, I have this bridge I'd like to sell...  ;)


Title: Re: A guy can Dream can't he (SC Sequel)
Post by: Neonlare on April 20, 2006, 11:46:31 am
...to gain experience and money which would let you upgrade your ships in various ways as well as increasing your abilities, letting you mine bigger scarier planets, blow up meaner bad ships, and whatnot.

How is this not leveling?

In my opinion, a SC MMORPG would remove everything that's unique and interesting about the Star Control games, namely the funny and engaging dialogue, the fast and responsive ship-to-ship combat, and the epic storyline where YOU make the main impact. If you know how to include those three things in a MMORPG, give me a call. You see, I have this bridge I'd like to sell...  ;)

Uh oh, did not see that, there should never, ever, be a leveling up system in a game where skill is needed, uuungh...

It would be nice to be able to change the fate of races though, you could have the Melnorme Players be the guys who supply the planets with supplies...


Title: Re: A guy can Dream can't he (SC Sequel)
Post by: Pyro411 on April 20, 2006, 06:45:27 pm
:-) I vote for a race that's great for research & development with that race being able to create new items depending on how many RU they're willing to invest in it.


Title: Re: A guy can Dream can't he (SC Sequel)
Post by: Griffin on April 21, 2006, 03:20:59 pm
Battlefield 2 has a level up system, and I think its very well implemented. And there could always be stuff you can buy with enough RU or Credits or what not to improve your fleet. This doesn't mean it wouldn't remain mostly a matter of skill...

Regardless, I think a Star Control MMO would be boring, so no.


Title: Re: A guy can Dream can't he (SC Sequel)
Post by: Staffy Star on April 21, 2006, 08:19:02 pm
Lets face it. When the "real" star control 3 comes out, we will all be disappointed. It's like starwars episode one, blues brothers 2000 and doom 3. Releases several years after the original thing never realy works. However I belive that  star control 3 will be a very very good game although not as good as teh original.

This is mostly written with spelling correction so no talk about engrish please!
 Amerikaner som aldrig vill lära sig någon annans språk :)


Title: Re: A guy can Dream can't he (SC Sequel)
Post by: guesst on April 21, 2006, 08:33:58 pm
Lets face it. When the "real" star control 3 comes out, we will all be disappointed. It's like starwars episode one, blues brothers 2000 and doom 3.

Hey, the only thing wrong with Doom 3 was the running around with the lights off. No body expected awesome story. They wanted blood, gore, and the next generation of 3D graphics. Doom 3 delivered. What nobody expected was the necessity of finding a bad guy with your flash light, lowering your flash light and empyting 20 rounds into the dark, raising your flash light and seeing the monster still bearing down on you, emptying another 20 rounds into the dark, raising your flash light again and then hitting the monster with your flashlight for the kill. That flashlight killed more monsters in mars base than the BFG or soul cube combined.

But as for next generation game play, the interactive menus on in game objects, hey, that was cool. And the graphics, pretty.

Now episode 1 sucked, true. If you pinned George down I'll be he'll even admit he spent too much time thinking about special effects and not enough time thinking about story and charater development. I am seriously praying that UQM2 doesn't fall into that trap. But even if it does, I'm shelling out my hard earned cash. Heck, I bought Star Control 3 after reading the novel. If that doesn't show I posess a serious lack of financial judgement where sequels are concerned nothing will.


Title: Re: A guy can Dream can't he (SC Sequel)
Post by: Novus on April 21, 2006, 10:40:23 pm
Lets face it. When the "real" star control 3 comes out, we will all be disappointed. It's like starwars episode one, blues brothers 2000 and doom 3. Releases several years after the original thing never realy works. However I belive that  star control 3 will be a very very good game although not as good as teh original.
Sure, bad sequels aren't uncommon, especially when someone is trying to cash in on a successful earlier movie/game/whatever. On the other hand, classics can sometimes get sequels that improve on the game without losing its essence (such sequels include: System Shock 2, Monkey Island 3, Star Control 2). Besides, I strongly doubt TFB would do UQM2 just for the money.

Quote
This is mostly written with spelling correction so no talk about engrish please!
Amerikaner som aldrig vill lära sig någon annans språk :)
Alla era bas är tillhöra oss! ;)


Title: Re: A guy can Dream can't he (SC Sequel)
Post by: Arne on April 22, 2006, 01:37:22 am
Herzog Zweii, Dune II, Megaman 2, Elite Frontier, Paradroid 90, Utopia K240, Pinball Fantasies to mention a few more 2's, but what about 3's?. Are 3's different from 2's?

Milda makaroner vad det ryker ur farmors ödla!


Title: Re: A guy can Dream can't he (SC Sequel)
Post by: Staffy Star on April 22, 2006, 02:36:10 am
All these doesnt count! The prequel were still "in the times" when the sequel were released.


Title: Re: A guy can Dream can't he (SC Sequel)
Post by: Culture20 on April 22, 2006, 12:53:30 pm
SystemShock2, SC2, and Dune II were not around the same time as the originals...  there were enough years to seperate them.  How about another example though:  Day of the Tentacle (the sequel to Maniac Mansion).  Even though it was more point & click, it was better than the original.


Title: Re: A guy can Dream can't he (SC Sequel)
Post by: Novus on April 22, 2006, 10:56:37 pm
SystemShock2, SC2, and Dune II were not around the same time as the originals...  there were enough years to seperate them.  How about another example though:  Day of the Tentacle (the sequel to Maniac Mansion).  Even though it was more point & click, it was better than the original.
Day of the Tentacle is a good example; it retains the spirit of the original but updates the technology and story-telling techniques. Dune II, however, is not really a sequel to Dune; comparing them is meaningless.

Herzog Zwei was released shortly after Herzog but seems to have changed the game in some important ways. Paradroid 90 is essentially Paradroid with updated graphics.

Warcraft 3 could be considered to be a major update to Warcraft 2, as it added 3D graphics, (a few) role-playing elements and much more variation in units.

Staffy Star does have a point, though; even if we include Star Control 3 in the Star Control series, UQM2 would follow after a void of at least ten years. None of the above sequels were separated from the games they sequelled by such a long time (Warcraft 3 was 7 years later, Day of the Tentacle was 6 years later, System Shock 2 was 5 years later).

Anyway, what does all this mean for UQM2? Although few younger gamers are familiar with SC2, the chances that they have played or heard of UQM recently are quite high. Although no new Star Control game has been released in 10 years, UQM seems to have rekindled interest in Star Control, making now a quite good time to start making UQM2.


Title: Re: A guy can Dream can't he (SC Sequel)
Post by: Staffy Star on April 23, 2006, 01:13:38 am
Many younger gamers have problably heard about UQM from a european magazine called retrogamer. The paper had UQM on its cover dvd a year ago.

Thats how I heard about UQM. I was born in1981, but didnt play the game until one year ago.


Title: Re: A guy can Dream can't he (SC Sequel)
Post by: Arne on April 23, 2006, 02:02:05 am
Quote
Dune II, however, is not really a sequel to Dune; comparing them is meaningless.
No, Dune II is a sequel to Dune, comparing them is meaningful. They are both strategy games, and just because the sequel was the inspiration of an entire new genre (Stonkers and Herzog are less known) doesn't mean it's not a sequel.

Herzog Zwei is also a sequel. As with Dune, the two games are set in the same universe, has similar graphic design and are both strategy games. The Zwei at the end means that the developer wanted it to be a sequel.

In the case of Paradroid I could agree with you, the game is more of an Amiga version of C64 Paradroid, although they changed gameplay quite a bit with the bullet physics, turreted weapons and sensors. Many sequels however are essentially just updated versions of the originals with better graphics and physics. In other cases the gameplay change radically, like with Dune II, Herzog Zwei or Utopia K240. If those aren't sequels then Star Control 2 isn't either, having dumped the entire turn based 3D starmap strategy thing for a story, just like other games dumped story for strategy.

Quote
Lets face it. When the "real" star control 3 comes out, we will all be disappointed. It's like starwars episode one, blues brothers 2000 and doom 3. Releases several years after the original thing never realy works.
Metroid Prime. Supreme commander (well, it's looking good so far). LaserSquad:Nemesis (although, it's a bit unknown maybe).

I wonder when Elite 4 is out.


Title: Re: A guy can Dream can't he (SC Sequel)
Post by: TiLT on April 23, 2006, 03:24:48 am
Dune 2 is definitely not a sequel to Dune 1. It was developed by a completely different developer, with a different publisher, on a different continent, with a different genre and overall style. "Dune 2" is named as such because "Dune" was taken.

Today that situation would have been handled differently, and they would probably have called Dune 2 something like "Battle For Dune" (which was the subtitle of Dune 2's spiritual sequel).


Title: Re: A guy can Dream can't he (SC Sequel)
Post by: TiLT on April 23, 2006, 03:50:23 am
I'd like to add that unlike in movies, sequels to games are almost always an improvement. It's very rare for a publisher to greenlight a sequel to an old game, but it does happen, and the results are usually good.

Examples include:

- Monkey Island 3, which came out many years after #2. Even though the second game in the series had an ending that was almost impossible to make a sequel to, they managed to do so and ended up with a game that is a contender for best Monkey Island game.

- System Shock 2. This game has enough worshippers to form a minor religion.

- Civilization 3 arrived years after Civ 2, and even though it had its problems, it was a solid game. With Civ 4, perfection was achieved.

- Fallout. Although not technically a sequel, it was a spiritial successor to an old game called Wasteland, and was a crowning achievement among CRPGs in the 90s.

- Red Alert 2. Westwood returned to this series after doing several other games in between, and it turned out to be one of their biggest successes in their later years.

- Day of the Tentacle. The sequel to Maniac Mansion and a massive improvement in every department.

I can also think of a few games that failed to reach the pinnacles of their distant prequels, but that's the nature of games:

- Dark Reign 2.
- Masters of Orion 3.
- Lands of Lore 2.



Title: Re: A guy can Dream can't he (SC Sequel)
Post by: Cronos on April 23, 2006, 10:41:38 am
- System Shock 2. This game has enough worshippers to form a minor religion.

**cough** Why, uh, whatever do you mean?

The Insect Knows! Destroy Him! I command you!

No! It's Too Soon! We must remain hidden until the time is right!

You are an insect!

I know I know!

Errr...

**cough**

**runs**


Title: Re: A guy can Dream can't he (SC Sequel)
Post by: 1ceph on April 23, 2006, 11:18:09 am
Back to the original subject of the thread...
In fact, I had another idea about a multiplayer SC2-based game.
Imagine a super melee screen, but a really huge one.
If it is a deathmatch, everyone start as drones, scouts, stingers (may be selectable) or some other junky ship and appear in random locations. Violent action ensues :)

Killing a ship earns points and frags. Frags are simply score, points can be distributed to select a better ship after death. Destroying better ships will earn more points. And so on and so on...

If it is a team game, players split in teams (say 8x8) and get a role like in the Team Fortress. Now this will be impressive fights. In such a game most ships will get an absolutely new use and new value. Long-range cruisers will become a serious threat if protected by Terminators and have a Scout flying around the formation for checking the surroundings for enemies... But after all, Scout will not notice this cloaked Avenger, who will burn the Cruisers when the formation is being distracted by this irritating suicidal Drone... )

But, after all, that's just a random idea. )


Title: Re: A guy can Dream can't he (SC Sequel)
Post by: TiLT on April 23, 2006, 12:35:22 pm
What you just described is pretty much the game Subspace, IIRC.


Title: Re: A guy can Dream can't he (SC Sequel)
Post by: MasterNinja on April 23, 2006, 12:59:29 pm
There may be lot of fans of those games, but I prefaere C&C1 and Red Alert before Tiberian Sun and Red Alert II.  It was like everything made out of candy and all these colored lights which made it hard to see anything. And things were stolen from StarCraft, very obviously was the NOD Siege... *cough*...  Artillery in Tiberian Sun and the Aircraft Carrier in Red Alert II

I did not play System Shock 2 but it released so many years after the awesome first part... It really can't be as good as System Shock 1 I think.  ("Nooo! This is my elevator! *g*")


Title: Re: A guy can Dream can't he (SC Sequel)
Post by: TiLT on April 23, 2006, 01:10:46 pm
You're right. It's not as good as System Shock 1. It's better. :)


Title: Re: A guy can Dream can't he (SC Sequel)
Post by: Cronos on April 23, 2006, 02:03:58 pm
System Shock 2 is a better game. The music is not as good as that of SS1, thats about all I can really fault about it.

Seriously, SS2 is the SC2 of the SS universe. Get it. Play it. Make Love to it Love it!


Title: Re: A guy can Dream can't he (SC Sequel)
Post by: Deus Siddis on April 23, 2006, 02:30:56 pm
Why is everyone talking about System Shock? I never played it, what makes it such a classic?


Title: Re: A guy can Dream can't he (SC Sequel)
Post by: Culture20 on April 23, 2006, 03:16:42 pm
Why is everyone talking about System Shock? I never played it, what makes it such a classic?
The Original SS came out when everyone was playing Doom2, and offered so many changes to the FPS genre that it was almost like a TFB game.  Doom2 had psuedo-3D maps.  SS1 had _real_ 3D maps (you could walk under passages).  It also had an incredible plot, puzzles, abundant sub-games (how many levels did you get in Overland before you remembered you were supposed to be blowing up the radio-transmitters?), and fun elevator music (which would sometimes morf into an evil-sounding key). 
SS2 is seen as a great game by most, and does have a great plot, but as a follower of Thief, I just kept expecting the Annelid guys with the pipes to say something about the "Builder".


Title: Re: A guy can Dream can't he (SC Sequel)
Post by: Cronos on April 22, 2006, 07:46:25 pm
**leans back in chair, and whistles**

Where should I start?

Well, okay, System Shock 1 I guess.

System Shock 1 came out in 1994. The only other truly notable release that wasnt a sequel for that year was Warcraft.

System shock was amongst the very few FPS games to have a true 3d environment. You could look up or down and levels often went in all three dimensions as well. This was before the 3d graphics revolution had rightly begun.

In addition, System Shock 1 was one of the first FPS/RPG games to actually HAVE a storyline. Prior to this it had been "Wolf 3d KILL THE NAZIES AND FIND THE KEYS!" and "DOOM 1 & 2 KILL THE DEMONS AND ROCK OUT!". **cough**

System Shock 1 put you in the shoes of a hacker. You were busted hacking into a giga-corporations computer network and your most likely screwed. You are however, offered an ultimatum. Do a favour for Edward Diego, a corrupt executive, and he'd let you off. Even let you have an R-Grade cybernetic implant that would let you have access to any and every system.

You of course accept, since it's what you wanted in the first place and it's better then jail. Diego gets you to hack into the Shodan AI (Shodan = Sentient Hyper Optimized Data Access Network :P) and remove a few ethical constrains. Nothing Major...

You wake up 6 months later and everyones dead, dying, or worse. You suddenly get an email, saying the higher ups know exactly what that favour was and that you MIGHT get off if you can stop Shodan from  burninating Earths cities with Citadel stations Mining laser.

Is this so different? You ask? But of course!

In almost every game before or since, the main enemy has always skulked behind the scenes, sending underlings to destroy you before arrogantly attacking you and being destroyed.

In SS though... The main badguy is EVERYWHERE. Shodan IS Citadel Station. She watches you through security cameras, Taunts with her emails, threatens to destroy you at every turn, belittles you when you succeed and congratulates you when you aid her.

Even more innovative was the use of Cyberspace. This was in essence a game within a game. You could jack into cyberspace and open locked doors within this game within, gain new programming upgrades, find little tidbits of useful (and oftentimes necessary) information. Indeed, Cyberspace was the ONLY way to defeat Shodan.

Weapons were also unique and innovative for the time. Several weapons had 2 or 3 different kinds of ammo, certain weapons were useless (stun guns, for instance), and energy weapons had a power slide bar that allowed you to make incredibly powerful or incredibly weak shots. The drawback was that, using too much energy would deplete your reserves (which were finite, but could be recharged fairly easily) and overheat the weapon itself (which could make it explode).

It was one of the first games where you actively had to search corpses, draws, cyberspace etc for crucial pieces of information. You actually had to READ and LISTEN to emails and personal logs to get through certain locked doors or get vital equipment.

The music was also unparallelled for it's time. No game before, I'm fairly sure, had an enhanced version that allowed for higher resolution and a CD full of music that you not only listened to but ENJOYED.

I honestly could go on forever. It was simply astounding and well deserving of a place in history as one of the greatest games of all time (up there with SC2, of course :)).

SS2 built upon it's predecessor. It took things in a different direction but stayed true to the original. Things were streamlined, and the continuing story of the SS universe brought a decided twist to things.

As a final note, the creator of the SS music track has a website where you can download his works legally. He is better known for his work on Hell March I believe. http://www.chicajo.com/frindex.php


Title: Re: A guy can Dream can't he (SC Sequel)
Post by: Novus on April 22, 2006, 08:53:46 pm
The music was also unparallelled for it's time. No game before, I'm fairly sure, had an enhanced version that allowed for higher resolution and a CD full of music that you not only listened to but ENJOYED.
You must have been on the Mac or something; the PC CD version only had MIDI music, same as the floppy version (either that or my memory is slipping). The CD version did have some very nice speech, though (Shodan is seriously creepy).

Quote
SS2 built upon it's predecessor. It took things in a different direction but stayed true to the original. Things were streamlined, and the continuing story of the SS universe brought a decided twist to things.
For starters, I really like the way they managed to simplify the user interface without losing any flexibility (give or take leaning around corners). System Shock has this seriously overkill control scheme using most of the keyboard plus clicking and dragging on both mouse buttons to walking, look around, aim, crouch, lean sideways, throw things, shoot things and so on without even using a separate inventory display. Having three hands would help. :) System Shock 2 only requires 2 hands to play.

Quote
As a final note, the creator of the SS music track has a website where you can download his works legally. He is better known for his work on Hell March I believe. http://www.chicajo.com/frindex.php
Uh... Chicajo has remixed a lot of tunes, but he wasn't involved in any of the System Shock games nor Red Alert. System Shock 1's music is credited to Greg LoPiccolo and Tim Ries and System Shock 2's to Eric Brosius. The Command & Conquer series (Hell March first appeared in Red Alert, but appears in many C&C games) is almost entirely Frank Klepacki (http://www.frankklepacki.com/).


Title: Re: A guy can Dream can't he (SC Sequel)
Post by: Cronos on April 23, 2006, 07:51:09 am
Thanks for correcting me there, I was typing that up at 4 AM and was positive I'd gotten something wrong.

And I've got SS1 Enhanced sitting on my old 30gb HDD, the music sounded very much above midi quality. If they are midis, then they're damn well done midis.

{Edit}

I retract part of what I said above. They ARE midi's, but they're damn well done midi's after all.

{Edit Edit}

Found an archive for the audio logs from SS1 :)

http://www.ttlg.com/ss1/voiceres/index.htm