The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

I believe your right.  The stars are aligned for a game like this to hit the market, or rather become a hit in the market.

But it needs to be done right.

1.  It needs to be massive
     (Perhaps a system can be implemented where the players can create their own solar systems, name
       them, etc.)

2.  It needs multiplayer
     (in the story area as well as an arena mode like hyper melee)

3.  It needs some rpg elements.
     (this can be as simple as the upgrades you get from the Melnorme. The key is decision making, do I
      upgrade lander to be resistant to lightning or fire, but not both.  This decision making will add to the
      multiplayer aspects.)

4.  It needs to move over to 3D-FPS-flight model.
     (Wing commander, Descent, etc.)


I have thought alot over the years about something like this. 
Star Control is one of my favorites.

The one idea that bounces around my head that keeps distinguishing itself is the idea of adding SG1 elements into the Star Control Universe.  They are pretty similar as is.  But so is Star Trek.

Sounds like a big undertaking to me, because you'll have to compete with Star Wars Galaxies, which is already fulfilling most of these.   So good luck.

It should be massive, could be multiplayer, but definitly not an MMORPG.

Witty alien character, and epic adventure are what made SC2 so great.
Niether of these things can be found in MMORPGs:

Character, because in MMORPGs you're interacting with other people, who will assuredly not provide brillantly and comedically scripted alien dialog.

Adventure, because in an MMORPG, you can not save the universe. It just doesnt work in a persistant world.

I would like to see it stick to the format of starting off isolated in an unjust universe, gathering resources, and working its way into full blown alien war. And, of course, full of interesting and funny characters along the way.

Yes, it does need to be 3d. I'd say First Person and DX10 as well.

MMORPG is exactly what this needs.

The problem with all current MMORPGS is the npc's,  They make the NPC's control the story of the universe.    Well, my solution hand it over to the players.


Here's an example.

I make a Shofixiti,   Somehow in my career, I was able to become the head honcho over the whole race
(the races will work like guilds)  and I decide to declare a genocidal war against the Vux.   Thus allowing for spontaneous combat between these 2 races.   Maybe perhaps putting a penalty on players for attacking races they are not at war with.

Believe you me, humans can provide more interesting and unpredictable interaction than any  AI counterpart.   Not to mention, it takes a human to make these witty characters, so why not just play with the source.

IMO, it takes Toys for Bob to make these witty characters. Not you, and not the countless 14 year olds shouting "pwned!" and "roflcopter!" over the chat lines.

Now I dont think a Star Control MMORPG would be a bad thing, if done right. But as far as SC4 goes, I want classic Toys for Bob.

And if suddenly the producers at Toys for Bob decide to make another race like the pkunk, that say nothing but you just got pwned, would you get mad and stop playing.         


I still rest my case that even those 14 year olds you just mentioned, do more for interaction than an AI with a scripted output.

This shouldn't even be dignified with a response, but yet, here I am...

First: The world does not need another MMO. Period. Not even one based in a brilliant game universe like Star Control. We have enough of these, and they show no sign of letting up.

Second: An SC MMO would strip the game of every appealing aspect that made SC2 so great. No alien dialog or interaction. No true RPG elements. Nothing to do but run around and gather resources or pick fights with other players. NO PLOT! What's the point?

I put my trust in TFB, because if anyone knows what they're doing when designing a Starcon game, it's them. But if they decide to throw in a race that does nothing but shout "PWN3D" and "ROFL" at me though the entire game, hell yes I would be disappointed. I already know they're better and more capable than that. On the other hand, I fully expect idiocy like that from an MMO crowd, and I wouldn't be able to tolerate it for more than 5 seconds before I quit and never looked back.

I'll get right to the point.

It needs multiplayer. It needs ome form if interaction, between the players.  

Without it, your game is destined to become just like SC2 a great game the first time thru.  But with each succesful completion it loses that much more of it's magic, because it's always the same story, every time.

With multiplayer.  And I'll say again, in story mode as well as a pvp arena.  Your game will become timeless.  Played by all types of players of all ages for a very long time.   Because unless your an anti-social bug,  humans have this deep desire to interact with one another, in all things, we all look for some recognition from our brothers.  Because let's face it, where's the satisfaction of saying you got pwned, to something that consists of 1010101010101..  

So in the same sense that sex sells.      It's true for multiplayer in games.

And that's where this question comes in. Are they in it just to make money, or to make a great game.

What the heck is it that makes people want every franchise to turn into a MMORPG these days? Let's face it, every MMORPG is pretty much the same with different graphics. Star Control is one of the very very few franchises that not only was unique when it was released, it's still unique all these years after. And you want to turn it into the least unique genre in the world of games? What am I missing here?

You say least unique, because it's the most popular right now. People arn't flocking to MMO's because they suck.

They realize the importance of building a game with multiplayer in mind first if they want to become as large as Halo was for the Xbox,  you probably hate that game too.   That's alright, your in the minority.

But your all disgracing MMO's.  And that's not right.  Humans interacting with each other during a game is the present and future of all gaming, so hop aboard.

Your thinking is greatly flawed in the realm of multi-player
RPGs. Multi-player will make the game timeless and
more popular? Have you taken a look at how long
SC2/UQM has been around? Now, how long did
Halo last before no one gave a damn anymore?

It's nice to have a game in which parties can interact
over the 'net. However, it should not the base for
any game. A good one-player game with the option
of interaction will gain a much stronger base. The
only expection I can think of is Subspace and it's
basically a multi-player Super Melee.

I have a better Idea than you do.

How many people frequent this forum?
How many still play halo?


I'd bet, rtcwolfenstein, has more players that frequent it than sc2.sourceforge.net gets hits from the internet.

so stop being delusional.

Speaking of wolfenstein, could you imagine if there was no multiplayer in that?  That game would have lasted..... a week perhaps. a month if they were lucky.

*BEEP* *BEEP* Random, faulty facts detected. Initializing emergency escape sequence! *BEEP* *BEEP*

Oh yes, I remember the days of playing Wolfenstein multiplayer. Yes. They all happened in my dreams, several years later, since Wolfenstein didn't have multiplayer.

Funny you should mention subspace.   Most the people that play that are probably SC2 fans.  But quite a few people still play it, because if its MMO counterpart,  your in an arena with at least 30+ other people at the same time.   The more the merrier, I look for the servers with the most people on it.

Now, how do you take the star control universe, and allow hundreds, if not thousands, or even millions of people to interact in it, within it's story, and with each other seamlessly.

I ment Return to Castle wolfenstein.

Just want to make sure we're on the same page.

Trust me, we'll never be on the same page. Except we're on the same page of this thread, but that will soon change, mark my words!

Speak of the devil...

Multiplayer?  I think not.  The story will not lose its appeal.

Perhaps you haven't played SC2.  But in SC2, you need not do everything in the game to complete the game.  It is likely that you will oversee a lot on your first run.  If TFB just creates a lot of these things in SC4, it is likely that the game will become just as fun each time you play it.

I am tired of seeing these MMORPGs, and you're really going nowhere, I get bored of them very fast.

Besides, SC4 should NOT score a large giant force of fans.  What I love about SC2 is that its fan base is limited, and hopefully only smart and thoughtful people would enjoy it and come back (which you have proven me wrong in).

Yes, it is likely that it will recieve new fans SC4.  Think of Transport Giant, nobody knows that game.  But it is still a great game, and for the small fan base it has, people enjoys and loves it.  So greatly they made an add-on.

We are not here to win the masses, we are here to win the fans' acception.

Except that TFB can't feed their families with just fan recognition. However, they wouldn't be able to feed their families by making a MMORPG either, since that market is saturated (reminding me a lot of the RTS genre in '97-'99 or so)

Looks like you're on your own, Eos.
Elitism. Look, we all like to feel good about getting something the average guy would not. But videogames have to make money.

To elaborate on what Tilt said:

 If SC4 has a cult following, it will be a commercial flop, and we will never see SC5. If Activision doesnt absolutely believe that SC4 will rake in some dough, it will never be made.

Profit (projected or otherwise) has a direct correlation to production value. More money means better graphics, bigger universe, and more time Toys for Boy will be able to invest into making it everything we wish it could be.

For the sake of having the best Star Control experience possible, it needs to be as big a success as possible. Period.

I'm on chapter 5 buddy.   Your still reading the table of contents.

Chapter 1 Computer Games
Chapter 2 FPS Start to push the boundaries
Chapter 3 MMORPGS flood the market
Chapter 4 Microsofts Xbox live gives everyone a taste of what real gaming is.
Chapter 5 Multiplayer experience deemed as essential for all games to be succesful.

So you want to be big, make SC4 for consoles. as described in chapter 4, why consoles are better for multiplayer than PC's

Because the console puts everyone on a fair playing field, where the power of persons PC doesn't affect th outcome of the winners circle.


and you say your not looking to make a game of this caliber?   then why bother.    Your gonna make a game for a couple thousand nerds who played sc2 back in the day?  That's just a waste of time.   The series is actually better left with loose ends if that's the case.

So throw in a melee mode. But if you think that means it has to be MMORPG, I have two names for you

Half-Life 2
The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion

Huge commercial successes. Stelar games. And both have a story content that MMORPGs never could. Well.. Half-Life 2 does at least.

Hey, *I* was going to play the Oblivion card! UNFAIR!

You could pointd out that it doesnt even have multiplayer, as I failed to. ;)

Ok, I see where the problem lies, when I say MMORPG, you immediately think along the lines of everquest.

Well not all MMORPGS are the same, just as all FPS are not the same

Deus Ex, and System shock are 2 good examples.  They are FPS but with RPG elements.

So please don't try to disregard the whole idea because you think making it an MMO means making another everquest.   There are more possibilities than that.

I feel so senseless saying that now.  Cause of course you're right.  They cannot.  And I am sure, it will.  Even without multiplayer (if multiplayer would make the game worse).

Now, I must have a counter argument; if the games does not live up to the old fans of the series' acception, it is likely that this information will spread, and new people to series will not pick since they heard that its own fanbase is not fond of it.

If you get my meaning.

And as for you playing the Oblivion card, last I checked.   It said there were 1,362 players playing on a saturday around 9:30 pm.

Seems like a game with that much hype would have at least 10,000 playing. I'm sure they sold even more copies than that.

Because as I, and most people have found out, playing oblivion is like playing morriwind all over again.    It gets boring real quick, when you realize your still playing with yourself.

Okay. First of all, this is getting out of hand...
Second of all, an SC-themed MMORPG could turn out to be rather neat.. But then again, it could also suck very muchly, especially since with MMORPGs, the communities make the game..

MMOs are fun, however. I've had a neatish idea myself for a longish while, which involved Boneyards (TA for the win), Battlezone (the first wireframe one), A regular FPS and some more stuff like that, combined together, cooked for a while, stirred for 5 minutes...

Now, multiplayer + SC = great. Remember Starcon (AKA Star Control 4 that got canned)? It had a neat system where another player could touch the 2nd player controller, and immediately the game would go to splitscreen mode, and it changed into a cooperative mode. Cooperative mode with Star Control sounds really nice to me, if done right... That and a lot of melee... :)

3d? Nah. I'd rather have it Pseudo-3d (like Flatspace and Aftermath did)...

  ::) That must be a tally of those playing Oblivion while connected to Xbox Live, as there is no other tally to take. And why be connected to Xbox Live when playing a single player game?

Oblivion has been the top selling PC game for a month. It has been the fastest selling Xbox360 game ever. 15 days ago, they sold over 1.7 million copies.. lord knows what that stat is now. (For a point of reference, the #9 highest selling PC game of all time, Half-Life 2, has sold 3 million copies).

http://www.gamewatchers.net/node/43

What in my opinion made SC2 so great was

• the humour
• the story
• the game atmosphere (partially due to the music, partially due to the way the game is structured; eg. too much micro-management would be bad for the immersion)

Now it seems to me that these elements aren't limited to the kind of game SC2 is. They aren't even limited to the SC2 universe (although you've already got great humour, great story background, and part of the atmosphere there).
Any game of any genre which has these elements has the potential to be as great as SC2 was (to me, at least).
And if TFB is given enough free reign, and they manage to avoid the pitfalls, I expect that they will in fact make a game that is at least in the same league as SC2.
That said, putting these elements in a MMORPG would be difficult. It would be hard to have a big enough "humour density" in such a game, it would be hard to have the story on the foreground in a MMORPG, and the atmosphere would most likely be ruined by the other players. I say "bad idea".

Last post in this thread.

The next thread should be all of you brainstorming on how to implement a multiplayer that consist of more than the simple melee mode, and allows everyone to interact within the "dynamic" universe.  Otherwise, don't even waste your time making the game.

I have to vote no on a MMORPG Starcontrol as well. Multiplayer battles are great, but the campaign needs to have dialogue based around a strong storyline from one of 5 or 10 of the only really great game universes, not on the abbreviated conversations a bunch of knuckleheads have about cheeseburgers or how long their toe nails are. :P

I like all your ideas, and in fact they provide the basis to build the multiplayer story mode around.  The fight to control space.  It would be almost like going back to SC1 where you were focused on gaining control of star systems and trying to discover ancient precursor technology.

Referring to a game called Guild Wars.   A team would have to battle for the Hall of Heroes in PvP, so long as that team could hold the halls, everyone from their country (USA, Korea, Europe) could gain access to previously unaccesible areas in the Story portion of the game, where they could then collect and buy items that are only found in those restricted areas.

Now back to SC-MMO. 
Races are fighting to expand their influence in space, and control key points in space that are known to contain wormholes to secret places containing precursor artifacts. 

At certain points or at the descretion of the program or sysops, the locations of these artifacts can change, to keep the universe dynamic. (It would be interesting to see spheres of influence constantly moving around in the space map in a desperate rush to find artifacts).

Some of the artifacts that you find, might consist of something that perhaps a single ship can equip, or an entire fleet that was present during the find might equip.   Maybe limit the kinds of precursor mods they can equip to a single ship or type of ship. 
(Diablo 2 uses a suffix\prefix item system, in the same idea you could randomize the precursor items that they find, just not as extensive)

See where this is going? And again, this is all coinciding with the original SC1.

Now for the more technical aspects of keeping the game alive.

One problem I foresee is getting people to play a good mix of all the races.  Making it difficult for someone to play particular races because everyone is flocking to the chmmr avatars.  One way to fix this is to tie material harvesting to fleet size, maybe even put in a formulae to penalize races with more players so they have to harvest more to keep the fleet intact.  And most of the fleet will no doubt be AI controlled, but the human players will have the precursor mods to stand out above the average AI ship.  Making players into bosses so to speak or the ACES. But not so much so that they are able to single handedly wipe out entire fleets by themselves.  Make the AI difficult.

Also perhaps, have players respawn into a brand new ship devoid of any modifications they may have found previously.

For the spheres of influence, perhaps make systems have a checkpoint similar to Battlefield 1942, once they claim the resource they can rebuild at any of the planets they control.

etc. etc.

Now, how do you tie in the story. It can be done. Perhaps tie in the finding of artifacts to how much of the story is revealed to the player, similar to building the precursor bomb to destroy the sa-matra, you might find artifacts to create a wormhole that takes you to the "next dimension" that the orz refer to in SC2.  In this, some people may finish the game and learn the secret to life in SC universe, some might not ever get close.

These are all just a few of my ideas.

Good riddance, cretin. We don't need Star Control turning into another money-sucking treadmill with juvenile morons running around spamming nonsense.

your all sad little people, selfish too. 

I say selfish, because you'd all have TFB make a game just to appeal to you, a handful of nerds who played and still remember SC2 from back in the day.

Don't overlook perhaps the greatest thing to happen to video games because you don't know how to interact or ignore immature 14 year olds that bother you with what they type on chat lines.    It's not the people that are chatting away in the game that are socially inept. It's you people who get so flustered by the fact that people are actually using the chat lines for WHATEVER reason.


You act as though  it is remotely impossible for the races in SC universe to go around spamming nonsense like cheeseburgers and toe lengths to each other.

If you want to make another SC2 then go play SC2 again.   But if your going to make a new one, make it worthwhile and get with the times. 


I didn't want to post again, but someone called me a cretin, for actually putting an idea forward. on what could be done with the game.  Too bad your all too selfish and socially inept to realize it.

I remember when people had the integrity to not post in a topic after they said "last post". It's as if someone ripped ass in this topic a whole week ago, yet the smell remains even after I sprayed the whole place down with Glade. Some of us have JOBS, kid, and don't have the time to throw away our lives on MMORPGs. Aren't Everquest II, FFXI, Guild Wars and World of Warcraft enough for you? And speaking of which, look at Squaresoft and Blizzard! The two biggest giants on the playing field haven't made a real game in years now because they're expending all their energy maintaining their pet. Not only is asking for Star Control to go down that route a bad idea, it's implausible. Toys For Bob is a tiny company - Activision would grant them the resources to make an MMO when penguins rain from the sky.

Talk about integrity, calling me a cretin when I have my back turned shows how much you know about integrity.  And if you say, Activision won't approve of the resources to make a multiplayer game, what makes you think they'd even want to look twice at this proposal of a game without multiplayer? 

Activision is a company that knows the market, and last couple of games I've played online have had Activisions name on it.

And what you don't realize is, an SC-MMO would not involve grinding and killing monsters for weeks on end just so you could lvl-up and take on an area.   The grinding part of MMO's that your referring to won't even exist.  Not all MMO's are the same.

If you haven't already, go play guild wars.  They are on the right track, even their business model is right, no monthly fee to play.  But it has it's flaws. It's major flaw comes from making the game more friendly to the avg player,  before you knew it, you had everything unlocked, you've tried every skill and skill combination and there was nothing left to do. Other than that, it's a great online game.  One of the best.    I still play it, just to keep my skills up for the upcoming expansion.

Ahem... I think the mood here would improve severely if we stopped feeding the trolls. Thank you.

Merged Mr.Eos posts from non-mmorpg thread to here and locked.