The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

First off, we all should have already raised our voices (http://sc2.sourceforge.net/petition/petition.php) for how much we'd love to see Toys for Bob make another Star Control.

I would like to see it stick to the format of starting off isolated in an unjust universe, gathering resources, making allies and enemys, working its way into full blown alien war. And, of course, full of interesting and funny characters along the way.

I think this sums up much of the spirit of SC2, and what most of the purist fans would love to see in SC4. (Tell me if I am wrong)

But times have indeed changed. So much more is possible now, and so much more is expected by gamers.

But what, exactly, should be updated? Heres what I'm asking you:

Should the game be 2d or 3d? If 3d, should it be 1st or 3rd person?
How should they handle resource gathering, both interface-wise and the in game logistics?
And if it were released only to console, would you purchase that console?

Now we're all dreaming here, but hey, lets dream away!

Heres my thoughts -
I dont like to play games.. I like to experience them. This means 3d, first person, all the way. While this will change dogfighting significantly, I would hope they can do this while keeping the spirit alive.

For resource gathering, I'd also like a first person experience. Intense dropping in and out of orbit would be a blast (though perhaps could get old quick if not fast). As for the logistics of harvesting, I havnt a clue. Should we have to sit for a couple seconds to harvest?

As for platform, I hope its dual platform game including Windows Vista.  But, if faced with no choice, I would buy a console for the sole purpose of playing another Toys for Bob Star Control game.

Long live the Spathi!

As for cross-platform, I hope it will be as cross-platform as the UQM open source project is.  Which includes *nix systems.  id Software normally does this for their games, releases a .bin file a bit after the real game is released, which is basically a port for *nix systems.

As for the 3D:  I do not know how you would do the battles, let alone the star map!  It would highly complicated.  But I suppose, given it is a game released in this age and time.

I am somewhat unsure about first person, because battles would become far too complicated.  But whereas other things such travelling around my be easy enough - perhaps a back mirror in the spaceship?

 Keep the combat 2D, it feels right.
 I would like to see an open ended RPG that takes place in the post war, post occupation SC universe. The ability to choose your path and which 'faction' to be part of. ..soldier, spy, merchant, bounty hunter (every name used in Super Melee coud be a war criminal to some one and have a price on there head) and combinations of these.
 The chance to expand your governments sphere of influence or just your own.
 Earth with a balanced fleet! The ability for an Earthling character to command and build their ships so they need not rely on the other races as much.
 The Black Spathi as a place for a Spathi character to gain access to.
 Some special 'gimmik' for each species that is represented as a PC.
 Modable so the friendly programmers out there can share their adventures and make it a living RPG environment.
 The only multi-player option it should have isship to ship combat in an arena type setting as a seperate program. I have never seen an MMORPG that was not dominated by socialy inept people.

Youre right. A 3d star map would be a headache.
Still, imagine a compass with waypoints.. punching an X,Y,Z coordinate into your ship and being pointed in the right direction. Quest logs, etc..  could work..

lol @ the mirrior in the spaceship.
I imagine a run down Shofixti Scout with the rear view mirror of a 73 pinto.

The Starmap of SC2 is not a true-space map as you all know. A true-space map would be 3D of course, like it is in SC3. Since the 2D hyperspace map was explained fairly in SC2, I don't see any reason to discard that fact from the SC universe.

All that compass, waypoints, XYZ coordinates -talk refers to true-space, in which the player only is inside solar systems.

Since solar systems are pretty 'flat' in reality as well, the third dimension could be a waste. Fighting is a different thing.

about 'flat' solar systems: All planets orbit the star on a pretty much same 'level', forming a 'circle' more than a 'sphere'.

The same is true for galaxies. The Milky Way is nearly flat.

I like the idea of 2D 3rd person. First person anything,
with the possible exception of Privateer, drives me
up the wall.

I realize this was brought up, flamed and shot down in
another thread, but here's an idea about the
multi-player system. Perhaps SC4 could take some
lessons from Neverwinter Nights. There was a game
with great NPCs, good story and large map, but
it also had the option of being multi-player. That
way, players could go through the game, play
the adventure and then, if they wanted, interact
with other SC4ers in a large, interactive, on-line galaxy.

Or maybe TFB will just do their thing and we can all praise
them later.

Yes. However, it's still about 1000 light years thick (about 3000 in the middle). From our point of view there are stars in pretty much every direction (although there are more in the general direction of the Milky Way's plane). A sphere of 1000 light years contains a lot of stars, even in our neighbourhood.

True, but that's in reality. SC2 never tried to be a simulator, no did its predecessor. So there's a lot of slack in a stylized game such as this.

But perhaps Spore will do a good job with its 3D starmap and then TFB can just copy that (if they even want a 3D starmap.)

I think the universe itself is more interesting than the game. I'd pretty much would be happy with any gameplay (rpg,mmorpg,shooter,'elite',tbs,rts) as long as the universe (and art / design) is done right. I think I prefer persistant universe simulation / sandbox above all else though... and that's not really a game at all.

<concur>As long as there are no Eternal1s</concur>

I agree completely. SC1 and SC2 were completely different games except for the melee portion and the art/story. Look how much we like both.  ;)

So begging TFB for an "SC2 remake" or "in the vein of SC2" is probably unwise. I trust them to create a gameplay experience that will be enjoyable, even if it's not what we were expecting.

Hi yall
Its probably wisest just to make sure that we get as many people as possible to sign the petition, and send postcards and emails and what not, and never stop focusing on that to try and design a game. Thats what Toys for Bob do.

The other thing we can do is try and get the precursors amazing jobs as a token of our gratitude to those truely noble (and damn funky) souls.

So begging TFB for an "SC2 remake" or "in the vein of SC2" is probably unwise.

I gotta disagree with that.. Take the original premise and story and simply improve upon it. Perhaps make planet landings  and resource gathering more challenging and envolving. Perhaps add new purchasable services to the Melnorme such as one way gates, mercenary services etc. Add more variety to your precursor ship's loadout. But don't mess with the basic gameplay principles.

Screw any multiplayer aspects other than melee battles. Screw micromanagement / colony building. Just say no to 3D of anykind other than a spinning planet or solar system graphics. This game has an old school feel and removing that might very well make it teh suk...

I think PR3 and FF should make the game they WANTED to make with SC2 ,but instead were rushed and limited by funding. What happens when I take the Orz to Quasi space? What is *heavy* space? Where do those rainbow worlds really point to on the Galaxy map?

If TFB could make a living by making games purely for your liking, that'd be a good strategy. But in the real world, a 2D remake of SC2 would have a far less likely chance of succeeding than a 3D game that possessed a story of its own, in the same universe. Besides, SC2 was probably made a 2D game back then, because the primitive 3D technology of the day would not have been a good conduit for making the game they wanted to make. But if they had today's technology, then, it probably would have been 3D and you'd now be asking for a 3D remake.

Given the amount of time that has passed since SC2, you really can't expect the same kind of game, running on a modern system (save handhelds, perhaps.)

Indeed. It's been almost 15 years since the game was released for DOS PCs (which says a lot in and of itself). While it is a classic, I'm not too proud to say my desires for the next installment *might* be clouded by a bit (lot) of nostalgia. I trust TFB to make an awesome game without bowing to my (or any of our) suggestions on what it should be like.

I think about the only thing I would actually balk at buying on release day would be an MMO. Seriously. Even if the game turns out to be a Spathi-tossing-multicolored-rocks-at-monsters-from-up-in-a-tree simulator. ;)

<b>"But if they had today's technology, then, it probably would have been 3D and you'd now be asking for a 3D remake."<b>

Oh would I? *cough* Star Control 3 *cough*,

Look ,I guess you do have a point Seud..er Sidios.. or what ever name you're using this week ;) I'm resigned to the fact you and I will probably always disagree on pretty much.. well everything, I just feel that turning the game into yet another, run of the mill 3D shooter isn't the answer. Games like TimeWarp and Weird Worlds show how great 2D games can still be made, even in today's 3D world... I'm more concerned with game mechanics rather than flash. SC2 had it right mechanically IMO. And yes that is MY opinion and don't expect everyone to agree.

I'm a big 2D fan, and by 2D I mean just having a flat playing area, it could very well be drawn by a 3D engine. There's something very 'graspable' and playable about 2D, and in my opinion having that often makes up for the false reality stuff you get with one less dimension. It's also easier to make content for 2D. With 3D, the player starts to expect more and more because suspension of disbelief has been broken with this reality-ish thing. I fear that with 3D there'll be so much content having to be done that the universe will feel dilluted and thrown together, and I'd hate to see the interior of a Spathi Eluder being some misaligned repeated textures inside a phong sphere.

However, if I were head honcho at some game developer today, 2D would probably seem very risky. Geometry Wars did well though, and retro gaming is on the rise. There's a lot of nostalgic 20-30 year olds out there, some even with jobs and money! Hmmm.

Regardless, the publisher and mainstream audience are probably going to cry for:
- Online play, ladders, community.
- There'll probably be a great deal of pressure for 'next-gen' 3D
- Pick up and play (aka dumb it down and probably forget scalability)
- Ports to many platforms (hopefully it wont be scaled after the weakest platform)
- A super linear story (Okay, they won't put it like that, but it almost seems like most players wants to be nannied, choices are confusing, ruins pick up and play and makes people drop the joypad in frustration over not knowing what they're supposed to do. Sandbox is of course completely pointless. What's the point in comparing stories if you have different stories, like "I lured the Ilwrath into a black hole with the Hyperwave caster" and "Oh really? I played Ilwrath and took over the entire galaxy, clacking my mandibles together in delirious joy as I feasted upon the remains of VUX babies at my altar."... no, that's not good, how about something like: "I rescued the priness!", "O really? Me too! I killed the last boss with the clear spindle", "Yeah! I stabbed him in the eye and there was a long scripted death scene!", "OMG, That's exactly what I did! It was so cool when the boss fell in slowmotion to the side and just whammed into the ground with Zelnik sitting in a crazy-awesome spider-man pose on its head!!!")

That's actually not a bad idea for a mini game. Would add some extra TFB style to the game.



That's actually a 2D game, methinks.



Exactly what other names do I have? Notice that I have an actual account on this forum (hint, hint) and my post count for this account is sorta hard to get up to within a week's span. ;)



I think weird worlds was 3D, it only operated on a plane. Timewarp is freeware, and WW is not a real high-end game, like Activision would most likely expect (demand.) The only way TFB could really make a successful fully 2D game, is in somekind of handhelds market, but I don't think that is the plan.


But, I do think there will be good gameplay, even if it is different. Perhaps TFB will have a fully 3D combat engine, but if you prefer, you can set it so battles are limited to a 2D plane. I suppose it is a possibility.

Check this out ....

I am downloading the client and have looked at the images.

MMORPG with 2D battles, planet colony screens, etc.
Alien races, colonies, trading.

www.starportgame.com

Actually, I think WW and SAIS were both 2d. Just that wierd worlds had high-rez sprites and lots of nifty graphical effects.

Aftermath, on the other hand, is true 3d graphics on a 2d plane.

Actually, if we go back in gaming history, I'm not so sure PR3 and FF would have made SC2 in 3D "had the technology been available to them" as suggested. Games like Wing Commander and Doom ran on 386 DOS machines just fine. PR3's first popular game was Archon, a top down chesslike battle game. Very popular and ported to many platforms. Next was SC1 which was basicly Archon in Space with a bit of story added. SC2 was pretty much a polishing of the SC1 melee engine with a much richer story & universe added.

SC3.. Activision tried to make a "blockbuster" using many of the newer popular gaming techniques of the time.. seudo-3d ships, 3D starmaps, animatronic looking puppets which did give a 3D look but ultimately was crap.. Gone was the feeling of piloting your ship and the campy, old school chram of SC2.

I suspect many advocates of a 3D rendered starcontrol sequal may be dissapointed by the demise of "Starcon" and yearn for it's final frutation.. To me, 3D works great for games like Doom, Quake,Tomb Raider, Halflife,Call of Duty , BattleField, Rainbow Six, CounterStrike,....and their umteen million spin-offs and mods. Personally, I've played enough of these first person 3D games to last a life time. Besides,do we really need the Star Control series to cater to quake kiddes just to sell copies ?

For all intents and purposes the SC story is like a good movie. It has all the same elements: A plot, character interaction, heros and villans etc. Take the classic War of the Worlds for example. How many times has the classic Orsen Well's story been retold? Some of the movie remakes aren't as good as others but the very premise is rock solid.

Note that 3D doesn't mean it would have to be based around you running around as a dude with a gun, in FP perspective. What made SC3 melee sort of suck, was the isometric renderings of ships (not that they were rendered from 3d models,) a mistake later repeated by ambrosia in their 3rd escape velocity game. It is really hard to aim with this perspective. The fools. . .

I've already made many posts on this subject, but what the hell...

And not to be an ass or anything, but something inside my head begs me to correct this:


You might want to give H.G. Wells most of the credit, IIRC-he wrote the novel everything else is based off of. Orson Welles just did the (in)famous radio adaptation.

*notices all the annoyed looks*

Okay, back to what I was originally coming in here for:

Part of the reason why SC2 is the greatness it is would definitely have to be the characters. Each of the races have this charm to them that I can't quite describe. Few games have had characters as memorable as Fwiffo or those Frungy nuts...

Another bit of icing on the cake is a simple-yet-effective combat system.

The music makes up one of the best soundtracks in gaming history, and little details like different text for the dialogue of the various races are also nice.

As far as the next Star Control is concerned, all of those things have to be included for good measure.

Graphics-wise, I don't mind if the game is done in 3D, but it would probably work best if it were cel-shaded. Also, moving to 3D would make life a hell of a lot easier when it came to animations and re-using art assets instead of having to create new ones.

Note that I did NOT say that the game had to make use of all 3 dimensions. It could still play out in 2D for all I care-it's just that 3D brings the advantages I just mentioned.

I actually did not find the 3-d galaxy of Sc3 to be a problem. The only real problem was the need to use a spreadsheet to determine how to allocate people (solving that problem was a LOAD of fun, very enjoyable brainwork. Sadly, for me, I'm not joking, but I can see how most people would hate it). Simply making planetary allocations better -- and seperating out "where they are working now" from "where you want them to build next" would go a long way towards making the colony building process better.

Not to mention: Give us better response options. The fixed choices in SC3 just did not account for things properly. And, truthfully, I actually tried one game giving the vux the best planets, and the most planets. They still complained, and there was no "You already have the best/most" option.

<Sigh>. Ok, SC3 wasn't TFB.

Here's what I want:
1. The ability to use all the ships in game. Maybe not all at the same time -- allying with X may make Y an enemy. (come on, the torch was the most fun ship to play with in melee, and yet there's only one in-game, and it's a neutral.)
2. If there's a melee mode, the ability to take our game-fleet and use that as a melee mode fleet.
3. If ships have upgrades, use either base or upgraded in the melee mode
4. Better AI opponents. Pay attention to players, how they fight, and model the AI after that.
5. Make it easier to see ships, and facing, when scaled out on the combat screen.
6. Perhaps going to "split screen", rather than dynamicly moving single screen.
7. Melee currently only takes the two ships into account. Yet all too often, the planet is crucial to strategy, and not shown. Just keeping all three in view at once would be a big help.

3D space battles? No thank you. Realistically, you'd have computerized control of stuff. Just think about the speeds people are moving around the planet at, how crazy those speeds are, (heck, how crazy is two days to cross the solar system?). Maybe with a specialized display and information system, it wold be doable, but if it really was manually piloted, we'd have a 3-D display (holographic, or something) showing how things were interacting. And, for just two ships, two velocity vectors, you'd probably model it with a flat plane that moves through space. (A plane that moves is adequate to keep one ray and one point on the plane as the second point moves along its ray.)

A  pc game up to quality standards today, means being 3d, and made by a whole army of people. Small medium size companies can't easily survive anymore.

Yet though, nothing stop teams of like 5 persons to do  an independent project, which takes the risk, though selling at a lower price (usual game buyer of AAA titles have a lot of demands about the techy thing )

That army you need, is really really expensive. Star control is a good license and surely an strong user base to start with (=ensured sales) .But seems big distros do really want no risk and not be blamed of using an old technology. Remember that is considered old even using prerendered 3d. heck, it's considered really old not even using normal , parallax maps in real time 3d...

My very personal opinion is...while I like doing and playing 3d games, for me is perfect a game in old school 2d. Or in whatever the technique. And I don't have a need of the game being techy or whatever. Neither huge with a million of linear and boring equal levels like today games... But I am a very rare case.

There's a going back for retro style, but only at portable consoles and mobile, and unsure if it'll last much more now that chips are really evolving there too...

But if the $ bet is really valliant, then, TFB should have full freedom to do whatever they think is better for the game. Not what is marketable (anyway, in long run, marketable means loss these days, in many cases; often playing safe is a loss among a load of companies just "playing safe")  But financial pressures are a big issue ,though. So whatever the line followed, it must be understood by fan base, imo.

btw, 3d does not mean automatically first person.

I think the main point of this game is the control in third person view, with the gravity and all addons it has. I mean for combat.

Building a huge universe all in 3d would be such a pain. maybe more in the line of strategy games like Rise of Nations, would be more realistic and better for the game; you could keep a similar combat gameplay and build from there. yep, adding lots of stuff, but not wrecking it for the fan base. (and for the strong point in game itself)

What is more, if it's small staff, is the only way. No way to go and try to make a huge title of today if not 2 years or more and an army of artists and very pro, experienced (expensive) programmers...Today would need physic programmers, ppl dedicated to AI, ragdolls, etc, etc, etc....A tittle today is sooo different. But What i meant, is...it depends on if they really depend their plate of food on it or not...stuff changes dramatically.

"""Yet though, nothing stop teams of like 5 persons to do  an independent project, which takes the risk, though selling at a lower price (usual game buyer of AAA titles have a lot of demands about the techy thing)"""

The problem is, I don't think Activision would go for this. And I don't think they'd allow the TFB team to go AWOL while they worked on their own independent SC game.

Oh, Actiivsion...
going for a big title.

Well...

Can be good...

I think that 3D Melee would make some of the ships completely unplayable. Imagine playing an Umgah Drone in 3D. You don't know where you're zipping, not to mention you can't see anything through that cone in front of you. And flanking ships would become incredibly overpowered in 3D.

well, you can do fixed camera 3d, like in Rise of nations, having the 3d advantages and look.

If you ask me, I personally would love it be 320x200 again. But sure Activision wont think so :)

"Should the game be 2d or 3d? If 3d, should it be 1st or 3rd person?"

I wouldn't mind seeing a combination of the two if possible. I have an image in my head of a game featuring lush 2D maps for star systems, hyperspace travel, and planetside resource gathering, with combat becoming fully 3D and playing roughly similar to how Star Trek: Legacy is looking like based on E3 gameplay footage. A little of that can be found buried around the middle of this interview here. (http://www.e3insider.com/video/?type=fancam&articleID=5J4F9I9PGG)

"How should they handle resource gathering, both interface-wise and the in game logistics?"

For the most part, I'd say the existing structure from Star Control 2 ain't broke, so why fix it? However, it could certainly be expanded in a few interesting ways. Asteroid mining could provide a fun alternative to running around planets, if balanced correctly. Some kind of general information database containing entries on the materials you're collecting - among other things - would add a little depth for strange people like me who enjoy reading such minutiae (I remember spending at least an hour and a half reading through the Freespace 2 database before even starting the first mission. Don't even get me started on Star Ocean 3.)

"And if it were released only to console, would you purchase that console?"

Most likely yes. However, unlike most people, I consider a console with even one truly great game to be worth its cost. The Sega Saturn had Dragon Force. The Xbox had Knights of the Old Republic. So on, so forth. I can easily imagine a new Star Control game developed by the right people being one of those games.

Count me among those who think the 2D version of the game was just fine.  I think that in terms of learning curve, play stile it should be similiar to SC2. 

Have a larger universe, many of the old races, plus several new ones.   For example you would start the game in Sol but there would be much more area to work with, lots of new adventures, both necessary, and unnecessary to complete the game.  I'm thinking of areas west of where the Chmmr, Ilwarth, Arilou were in the game, as well as south of where the Pkunk, Yehat, and Shofixti (their destroyed homeworld) and east of the Druuge/Burvixese/Utwig.

Adventures where you would free races that the Kzer'Za enslaved, where you'd find the worlds of races destroyed by the Kohr-Ah, like the Gg, races that somehow avoided being found by the Ur-Quan (after all the Melnorme, or should I say the Mael-Num did it why not others).  And of course some major problem that has to be solved requireing you to fly to very remote parts of the galaxy in search of clues.

Have your Precursor ships look something like the Mark II that's shown in the dialogue when you finish SC2 successfully.   Make you have to work to improve it like in SC2 (I hated the Colony ship in SC 3 it was way too weak)  just find a different way to obtain the improvements to the Precursor ship.  Fully upgraded the Precursor ship should superior to any enemy ship, but there should still be need of escort ships, not sure how to best balance it though.

The ship upgrades in SC 3 was one of the few good points about that game IMO.

In Super Melee mode allow for larger teams and allow for every ship in all the Star Control game to be flown.  The way that each ship had a picture of people (aliens) operating the ships controls, comparable to what the ship was doing in SC2 was a nice touch.  Something similiar in all combat please.

The 2D combat in the first 2 SC games was just fine the way it was, though I agree with previous posters who said we need to know where the planet is, perhaps there could be an arrow on the edge of the screen pointing at the planet if it's off screen, simply position it in such a way as to not intefere with the view of combat.  Make sure that the planet's gravity isn't too strong (I hated that in SC3 to get ships caught in the gravity and unable to leave).

Just diving in because I've playing UQM for the first time over the past two days and heard an interesting rumour.

I heard there was a bootleg dump of an early alpha of Star Control 4 doing the rounds amongst the very exclusive guys who deal in that kind of stuff. Anyone heard this? If my background reading was correct then it was something more similar to SC2 than the final product (StarCon).

If this is the sort of thing you want to waste your time chasing then two possible points of contact

1. Escapist magazine. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/
One of the back issues deals with this

2. If any of you are goons then Red Eye in the Games forum knows a lot about these things and has an interesting website with a bunch of assorted rarities (lostlevels.org).

I think Chad of PONAF has one of the StarCon prototypes. I also remember seeing one for auction on ebay a while ago, but it was quite expensive.

Evidently, the thing is a console bolted shut so you can't get the actual disk out, or something.

Do you recall who ownes the rights to this semi-developed game? Could it be made legally downloadable or would that lead to trouble, I wonder. . .

This doesn't really matter to me, I'm sure people could re-adjust to whatever interface is offered, and the gaming scene, graphics and processing power have changed so much since the original SC2.


In SC2, the resource gathering was incredibly well-balanced with the pace of the plot and exploration aspects, and I'd like to see that continue. Certain stars, races and resources were put within near reach, and the way the starmap was laid out subconsciously encouraged you to explore in certain directions. You found things out gradually, then flew greater and greater distances, and found out more. Hard to do, but perfect when done right. If possible I'd like to see that done again.


Probably not; I'm not a console gamer.

One of the previous posters said "I dont like to play games.. I like to experience them."  I'm of a similar mind. I want to feel immersed in the universe, so the plot and dialogue is incredibly important to me. Also the fact in SC2 that your actions have consequences - you're Making Stuff Happen. Having a rich story and universe is the way to go.

Another important feature, which I desperately would like to see but I doubt would be implemented, is the auto-fight mode. Save the game before the battle and let the computer fight it out.  This made the game incredibly accessible to us adventure gamers who suck at battle/action games.

Here's a question though. If this is going to be a sequel, there's going to have to be a synopsis of SC2.  What's the best way of summarizing what happened?  The Earthlings made a lot of different things happen in their interactions with each alien race. Plus some game threads were optional... was it necessary to send the Ilwrath after the Thraddash? Which optional plot points would we want to survive in the sequel?

Yes, because you couldn't get at Procyon if you didn't :-p

I was unable to experience SC2 prior to....3 or 4 days ago, via UQM. I am really enjoying it to this point, and it is clearly evident to me that a sequel/update is what is needed. As I have no "nostalga factor" working for me, I may provide a somewhat different perspective than many of you, but whatever, that's what forums are for, right?

As for 3d, I definately think that it could work, and work well, if done correctly. How I imagine that this would work is a similar camera job to Crimson Skies for Xbox - Behind the ship piloting, forgiving controls, easy manouvoring, and so forth -- not a flying simulator, but an engine that allows for fun "dogfight" style combat. What could make the combat especially interesting is, if the engine is advanced, different effects of lighting (WWII style attacking out of the light of stars) and atmospheric effects of planets or moons (perhaps skimming along atmospheres, while not appropriate in the realm of physics, can make it harder for you to be seen?)  through on screen radar style screens, I think it shouldn't be too hard to figure out where enemies are. There need not be a 3d starmap, maybe a "nav computer" or some business will handle that for you, and you just need to get far enough out of a solar system (sort of like how Escape Velocity handled star systems).

Harvesting - I don't see anything wrong with the style that is done in SC2, so it can stay the way it is...or maybe be automated in some way -- you orbit a planet, bringing up a menu for scans and all of that, and send down your lander. perhaps, if that process is automated, you leave the lander and go explore for some time. You receive a warning a few game days later stating that the mining expedition is complete, and you go to pick up the crew. Perhaps some will die if you just send down "miners" with no protection from life forms, and perhaps scientists may find something other than minerals, so on and so forth.

Consoles? Why not? If it doesn't detract from the overall focus of the game, I don't see a problem with it. However, I would suggest that Activision decide, for instance, to make a PC game, and THEN do what is necessary for it to get onto a console ( I imagine that the 360 would be the best for ports like this). Too many times developers try to make a game for all systems, and they end up too thinned out to be good on any platform.

so, let the newbie have it. I don't have the history and deep-rooted love for the game that you all do, but perhaps my perspective can show what newcommers to the series may approach the idea of remaking a classic (or making a sequel)  that they have not been exposed to.

I hope they allow addons for ships, worlds, music, characters, etc.  It would be cool if there was a website for downloading lots of custom ships for the new Star Control game.

Kind of like the skins for the Quake series.

Also, it would be nice if the game had a pause button too for taking more time to decide a strategy.

My 2cents:

Me thinks if the game is going to be developed under activision then it will be a big title, meanin 3D and big budget etc, though I may be wrong, who knows how those bigwigs think.

The question then is not 3D vs. 2D, but how to make 3D work best for maximum storyline and gameplay etc. (and general lovability). It has to appeal to both old-skool sc1/sc2 players, and a new audience. Therefore a proper sc4 has to have great graphics etc, but not as to overwhelm the storyline and gameplay.

Of course I think the over-head view should be kept, no first person, as this is the starcon tradition. Thankfully Toys For Bob have to worry about his crap, and not me.

Hello.  I know this thread appears to have died, but I have my own thoughts about what I'd like to see in a new Star Control game...

First, as has been suggested, I'd render the whole thing in 3D but have the game play entirely on a 2D plane, as in SC2.  With all the graphical effects possible these days, the melee combat could look spectacular even in 2D (which is really what it would have to be to be called Star Control, IMHO).  Basically, rather than focus on making everything fully 3D, I'd focus on rendering the best looking 2D picture possible.

Second, I'd leave resource gathering and planet stuff essentially the same, but the larger screens people play on today allow larger fields for the planet lander, scans, etc.  I'd rework the whole planet interface, actually, to bring it up to todays standards.  And I'd have each planet be a sphere rather than a flat map that wraps on the sides.  I'd be tempted to suggest playing the planet-lander in 1st-person or 3rd over-the-shoulder 3D, but then I think that would not fit in with the 2D combat.  And I'd way rather sacrifice 3D resource gathering than SC style melee.

Third, I'd make the planets and moons actually move in their orbits.  They'd move incredibly slowly, obviously, at whatever rate is appropriate given the speed of the game clock.  It wouldn't really add much to the game in terms of gameplay, but I think it would be cool.

Fourth, I'd suggest devoting 3/4 of the space on the disc to voiceover.  Really, the other game resources would not amount to much if it's 3D-rendered 2D (I would think).  And then spend a lot of time and care making the alien interactions fun.  So lots of dialogue (though not long, droning dialogue like some games), and lots of character movement and expression on the screen.  And get quality voice talent, with someone involved in the game's creative process to direct them.  I don't know about you guys, but I definitely play UQM with voice OFF...

Fifth, I'd ignore SC3 continuity entirely.  In fact, I wouldn't call the game SC4 just to dodge this entirely.  I'd call it Star Control: *Happy Campers* or something (not that, obviously).  I'd be foolish, however, to ignore the positive things that SC3 did contribut though.  One of the above posters mentioned ship upgrades for every ship -- I liked this idea too.  Another thing that I sort of appreciate when I play SC2 (or UQM, now) is the ability to autonav to each planet or moon in a system.  And then there's the issue of the colonies.  I like the idea of colonizing worlds (SC2 seemed off with almost no colonies, even if it made sense with the storyline), but SC3's system was basically pointless.  I'm not sure how I'd improve it, though I think I'd want to include it in some fashion.

The main thing to remember when approaching a new Star Control game is what makes SC2 the greatest game ever.  It's not cutting-edge technology at work.  It's the game's incredibly rich, rewarding gameplay with a very elegant design and interface; it's the simple and perfectly balanced ship-to-ship combat; it's the whisical and humourous story, characters, and universe.  Basically, keep it simple (to use, if not to beat!) and keep it fun and funny, and it will be a winner.  An elegantly rendered 2D design would be the best fit for all of this, I think, and it would be a winner with the sort of people who are into this sort of thing.  You know, smart people.  :)

Oh, one last thing.  I know it sounds a little like heresy, but I think it would be a great fit on today's consoles.  Those dual analog sticks and shoulder buttons/triggers might open up some fun possibilities with the melee, without changing the core of what made it great, plus there is no obvious advantage to playing on a PC (unlike with, for example, hardcore RPG's or FPS's).

Anyway, sorry about the length.  I just really want to see a great SC4 someday... :)

Something that hasn't been mentioned yet...

How about abandoning the 1 on 1 limitation?  I personally would LOVE to see how some of these ships might fight in combinations or swarms.

Would require a REALLY good tactical AI... and good macromanagement tools.  Also, I'd like to see this as an addition rather than a substitution... so that the 1-on-1 fans will still be happy.

doesnt timewarp allow for this?

Right now I could just as easily go for a UQM port to Xbox Live Arcade with multiplayer Super Melee over live. I know for a fact my father and I would go without food for a week to afford an Xbox 360 just for that.

People aren't as hostile to retro gaming as you guys think. Street Fighter 2 is the fastest selling Xbox Live Arcade Game ever, so a 2d game is not anathema to them.

Or how about simply doing it differently?

I see a Star Control/ Mortal Kombat  motiff.. A melee engine where your ships don't rotate, but stay facing eachother across the screen. Each ship still has different speeds, unique weapons etc. but you simply battle by straffing back and forth and trying to hit your target. Some ships could simply shoot straight but the possibilities are open to anything we've seen in our favorite shooter/scroller and beyond.

Virtually all known aspects of the classic Star Control melee could be ported to this format. Short range weapons like the Stinger tounge attack , the Umgah cone, Illwrath flame thrower or the Thraddash afterburner might have to be changed or tweaked consideribly, but most other things would easily port. The suppox blade would be made for this format!

To me, SC melee really doesn't involve much skill or strategy. The gravity whip is interesting, but battles are  pretty much determined at the outset IMO.

I shudder. This is truly *beautiful* in its... *simplicity.* Really. While the idea actually could be a lot of fun, not with SC. Seriously, not with SC. The classic SC melee is, I'll grant, limited in many ways (imagine Descent-like control over the ship instead) but that adds to its charm. Furthermore, its simplicity makes for an easy-to-learn, fun game.

The only aspect of melee I'd change would be to add a fleet battle mode, and that would only be used for major engagements or something - most encounters in SC*3* would still be 1-on-1. (this is one damn good sandwich!)

Although the outcome of SOME battles is already decided at the outset (chmmr/arilou, and I'm sure you can all think of a few others) THIS IS NOT A GIVEN! It has been proven - several times by numerous different people - that no ship is truly invulnerable compared to a specific opponent. I have seen a cruiser kill a blazer before, although it was kind of a write-off afterward...

Melee DOES have its skill/strategy aspect. Gravity whips, the angle of your nemesis cannon, reliably killing chmmr with a slower, 'weaker' ship, where the marauder's mines are going, when to drop marines, when to use the blade's strafe and when NOT to, that kinda stuff. It isn't PURE rock-paper-scissors, and skilled piloting tends to spell the difference between a crushing defeat and a glorious victory. Or an outright 'HOW-the-hell-did-I-do-THAT?' victory.

Which brings me to my SC*3* suggestion: NOT MMORPG! I don't want OR need to see Star Control gutted and raped by the l33t dipshits. I'm sure everyone else agrees. Actually, my suggestion is: The UQM interface works nicely, all it needs is a visual update. The SCnot3 interface was actually kinda nice. Work something together there. Once we have an interface, we need to establish the melee dynamic. See above. NOT the SCnot3 faux 3D or 2.5D or whatever melee. Then all we need's the backstory, quests etc... That's where TFB comes in.

Think on this - if SC*3* has a different gameplay style to the first two, will you people who have played the original SC2 and SC1 REALLY like it? So - take the best features of both SC1 and 2, update the interface to bring it more-or-less inline with what we have today, change the gameplay itself VERY LITTLE from SC2, with maybe a few of the nicer features of the SCnot3 engine added, get TFB to write a good story for this interface, stomp every single little bug that rears its head into grease... and here's the best bit - make it modular. Make the engine so that a new story/quest/starmap/whatever can be seamlessly integrated without having to rip the source apart to make it fit.

I would offer my own questionable coding skills to this project, but unless you want to code it to drive heavy industrial epuipment off EEPROM or TTL logic I doubt I'll be of much use. Heh - that would be fun.

Uh, that's it.

Here's a cool little flash game with multi-ship combat. It even has a story.

http://www.miniclip.com/games/real-space-2/en/

I dunno about you guys, but I would love to see a Star Fox-esque 3rd person Star Control. Sorta like that one SC game that got cancelled (StarCon).

And another thing that would be cool is a (almost) seamless gameplay experience, meaning that  fighting, going through Hyper/Quasi space and exploring would all be done from the same view.

Explaining some of the cliffhangers from SC2 would be nice, too. Like just what happened to the Androsynth and the Taalo, and where the crap the Orz came from.

Also, NO ONLINE MULTIPLAYER. The last thing we need is an MMORPG, there are way too many of those as it is.

I would like to point out that there's a difference between MMO and MO.  You can have online multiplayer with a limit to how many people are fighting at any given time.  Timewarp does it quite well.

Well, the idea itself is ok, but I simply have this feel that thats exatcly what SC3 tried to do. Of course, TFB would probably have a much better story and all, but still.........

I don't know how many posters here have ever played Star Control, the first of all sequels. Colornizing is NOT introduced in SC3, and 3D starmap IS in the original SC. I still remember how it was in mono display and PC speaker. It actually sounds better with the PC speaker than FM synthesizer card of the time (Adlib, or something like that).

Back to the topic. I actually am expecting to see it goes back to 3D interface on starmap. 3D control works well with both joypads and keyboard/mouse combination nowadays, and there are more keys on joypad today over 15 years ago. Why confine ourselves with 3 arrow keys (not even four) and two other control keys?

Melee will and should be in 2D, and it should be made so that one can play online melee with other players. AI will always be beaten by men, and men are unlimitedly cunning than anything else. The only question is that: should there be more than 2 players in a melee? The experiment of timewarp shows that it could be a success, or a complete failure. I personally suggest that there could be as much as 8 melee players battling each other with dynamic gravity traps (i.e. planets) orbiting around each other.

The rest problems are more like what type of game the single player mode will be. The first SC is a strategy game. Why can't TFB make a SC sequel as strategy again? MMORPG is another possibility which allows both offline and online play. Who would resist the temptation of being a Melnorme trader wondering over space, trading goods and information, while slowly, but continuously, executing the ultimate agenda of the Melnorme?

Possibility of utilizing 3D RTS as a game mode should not be discarded, too. It allows player to control a fleet consists of several dozens of starships and command them in a coherent (or chaotic but visually spledid) way during battle. For example, most people can't use Umgah drone well and it is widely deemed as a junk in the hands of human control. However, if you have 20 of these in 3D, they can be deployed in such a way that they can use as an array of antimatter cones to block enemy attack and cover other ships, such as players motherships, behind. 3D RTS provides some possibilities, though some people may not like it.

first off i hated the demo in SC3 the most of the weapons was near worthless i guss that what happen when you think you can take a good game from a good company and make it better at least in 2 the ship all had a real attack.

in four i wish to see all ship armed and the option of a fleet battle or the old fasion one i want both to be open i like watching fleet battle more the one man heros but at time i like being the one man hero so open both option it would make for a very good game what made battlezone a good game was there option you could drive off and be a one man hero or take along some tank and swarm your foes options are what i like the most about games and i don't mean no fot menu and the shofixti are my faviote race mostly because of they warriors hart and the way they talk.

i would like to see more conquest options in it

oh and the 3D thing on 3 made me queasy  keep it two player man and if done right it could go MMORPG but only if it like Savage and Guild wars buy the game and play it for free i hate MMORPG fee stuff the Savage company is also nice enoth to giv e there game free now

Yes, SCnot3 maybe did attempt (and fail) my suggestion up there, but why did it fail?

Abysmal plot, nonexistent quality control, a broken engine and a story which, frankly, sucked. In addition, the only SC2 races that were portrayed decently by their dialogue were the Pkunk and the Spathi. And that is only because in the case of the Spathi they transplanted huge chunks of dialogue from SC2.

In addition, the music was insipid to pathetic, the 2.5D melee combat was irritating and the AI was too depressing.

SCnot3 had potential - great potential. It was actually a half-way decent game. But after SC2 it disappointed, and with its broken engine etc etc it was... painful... to play.

Most of these mistakes could have been avoided, people.