The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/top/clinton-to-planning-video-game-tax-looks-for-martyr-189042.php
http://gamepolitics.livejournal.com/326837.html
http://www.gamespot.com/news/show_blog_entry.php?topic_id=24826791

Yeah I've heard that this is probably going on. This MIGHT NOT be true.

Edit: Somebodies thoughts I admire and wish I said: (Happy Now?)

If true, this is absolutely ridiculous. It's always great when politicians seize control of a strawman to start beating in the political arena as they try to make themselves look good while doing absolutely nothing that's truly beneficial to anyone.

Pretty soon they'll be talking about foam-padding everything about gaming. No violence, no laws being broken, and a moral (Christian-only, please) lesson packed into every video game. Loading screens will become "The More You Know..." sessions.

I predict the odds of any gaming tax money actually going to benefit/help treat the core causes of all the things video games are being scapegoated for is somewhere in the 0% range.

Why is it that rational, intelligent people often have to suffer for the absolute idiots of society as people pander to the LCD (lowest common denominator) of human intelligence/behavior. Politics and people are often instant mood killers.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Hillary+Clinton

While not a reliable source, this is what most of the youth think of Hillary Clinton these days. I really hope she doesn't run as the democratic nominee. If Hillary Clinton runs for the democrats, me and my parents (which me and my parents both vote democrat) will vote libertarian in 2008. Really she is a disgusting example of faliure. She really can't find anything else to bitch  about other than video games? Wow thats sad.       

Yeah but please don't take Urban Dictionaries word for it, that site is filled with arguements of:

Person1:       OMFG AMERICA SUX, RULE BRITTANIA!
Person2:      LOSER, LMAO AMERICA ROX, LOL

It is really filled with really bad arguements like that so you might as well disregard urban dictionary as a source at all  :P
 

YOUR thoughts?

This was a bit too well-written from what I've seen from you, so I typed in a few words in Google.
And whadayaknow, look what turned up (http://www.joystiq.com/2006/07/24/rumor-hillary-clinton-preps-for-video-game-tax/#c1786707).

And don't tell me you're the same person.

Yep im not the same person, too lazy to actually write something like that so i borrowed. I was browsing around their site when I found this topic. Probably saying "my thoughts" wasn't a good idea.

I always found the commotion about video games/movies/cartoons/RPGs beeing the cause of violence among children very stupid.
As a child I was subjected to every single one of these things, my parents, as they now asmit, were terrified about the potential influence all this could've had on me, tough they didn't say a thing back then, possibly because to this day I have failed to kill, or even seriously ingure another human beeing.

Sure there might be some people that can do something stupid because "they've seen it on TV".
My solution is not banning or restricting games, movies etc. but providing these people with mental healthcare as they are clearly insane.

It's the parents' responsibility to teach their children to tell fantasy from reality, so if a kid decides to cut off his friend's head, it is the parents, not the game developers (movie dricetors, etc.), that should be held responsible.

Frankly, I see Hillary Clinton getting worked up about this as a mere distraction from other events that matter. We havn't seen her talk about the Iraq war very much have we? Maybe instead of trying to punish the gaming community, how about she tells parents to start teaching responsiblity and moral values to their children so they won't do moronic things that ruin everybody elses time. But back to the part about taxs; Entertainment should not be taxed like ciggarettes and alcohol. Entertainment is not harmful unless you take it seriously. That is something Hillary fails to see.

I agree about the statements that these politicians should focus on parents raising their children better rather than annoying fans of a specific form of entertainment.

Besides, look at it this way; the Inquisition, the World Wars, etc. happened without the existence of videogames. What makes it different this time around? For all I know, it all boils down to psycho murderers who like to blame their insanity on other things such as games rather than the real culprit-their inability to distinguish fantasy from reality.

She's jumping on the bandwagon started by this one congressman from Minnesota. What was that fucker's name? Oh nevermind, it really doesn't matter. If Hilary Clinton wins the democratic primary, I may vote republican based on who they pick. I happen to be quite partial to John McCain these days. If they send a douche like Bill Frist, I'll probably go third party.

They might pick Mitt Romney, and he would be an excellent candidate.  Of course, they might also pick Rudolph Juliani (sp?).  Not that Rudy's evil, but I think his fame is less deserved.  Then again, there's John McCain, who I used to really like.  He's proposed a few bills that made me change my mind, though.  As for Bill Frist... who's Bill Frist?

Yeah, if Hillary wins the Demo primary, I won't vote for her.  I wouldn't vote for Al Gore, either, though, and I wonder who else really has a chance?

Anyways, I don't think this anti-video game measure will go far.  People will see the scapegoating for what it is, and Hillary will be left without an audience.  Oh, sure, there will always be people in her cause because of her last name, but they won't go flocking to it, either.  Not even the Democrats really love Hillary these days.

If Hillary Clinton is the democratic nominee and we have some neo-con for the republican nominee, I will vote Libertarian. But I really wish Howard Dean would run again. He was three times better than John Kerry. John Kerry lost because of the Vietnam fiasco in 2004 that caste him as an anti war hippi who flushed his medals down a toilet. All I know is that the video game thing Hillary Clinton is ranting about has a high chance of not passing.

Even as a fairly staunch Democrat I can say that a John McCain ticket would give me pause for thought.  Too bad the rest of the GOP suffers from some serious groupthink.


Who?


I don't think I have any particular problems with a Gore ticket.  Hillary...don't like the way things are going now, and if they keep going that way then, yeah, I might not cast my vote for her.  I'd have to see her platform come election season.  And see who she's up against.  And yeah, good question.  Sadly, there really aren't any seriously charismatic figures in the Democratic camp.


Abso-freaking-lutely.  Dean was pretty good.  And yeah, the fact that Kerry lost to a presidency as incredibly controversial as Bush's marks him as an utter failure.

Well, it seems like hillary won't win many votes from this forum. I guess hag appeal just doesn't have much pull with americans these days. Honestly, she takes the opposite side that I would on every issue, almost like she can read my mind.



If things get bad for the reps in the next two years, it will most likely be between Rudi and John in their primaries.



Not entirely, there seems to be a little something between the cons and the neo-cons. Basically, the reps have religion vs pirate capitalism, whereas the dems are just progressive robots, imo.



I second that "Who?"



No pun intended? ;)


I really can't believe the dems, they are being handed total victory and they still can't get organized enough to reach out and pull the ceptor of power from the burnt, crispy fingers of what remains of the neo-cons.

I remember back in the clinton days how they'd talk about how the reps were obsolete and nothing more than a joke in modern society. Now they sound more like private hudson. "What do you mean they took over power? How could they take over power, man? They're republicans!"

Well, nobody wins their own elections, anyhow. Your opponent's failures are what get you into office.

Rant over, man, rant over!

I think it's a good thing. Seriously. You pay a pittance for gas, while we're basically bleeding over here because it's so heavily taxed. It seems only fair that you pay a proepr tax on something. I agree video games is slightly off, since not everyone uses it, but until someone comes up with a water tax for you this will simply have to suffice.

OK, being that I live in New Jersey, the state with the:

1. Highest property taxes in the US
2. Highest car insurance rates in the US
3. Sales tax increase and expanded scope that just passed less than a month ago

I sort of take offense to that. I pay quite a lot of money in taxes just to LIVE here, and even more if I want to think about driving. The last thing I need is for my one hobby that requires expenditure of money to suddenly develop some more taxes that I have to pay.

Just because our gas taxes are low, doesn't mean we don't pay "proper taxes" here.

Ah, we should have to pay, huh? Here you pee on a tree in public, and you're a sex offender. But where you are, you can relieve yourself into someone's mailbox and dig a tiger trap for his car, in his own driveway, and you get a show sandwiched between TNG and MXC on national television.

We'll take your taxes, if you'll take our lawyers. :P

Although video-gaming is not as common a past-time as tea-time was in the days prior to the American Revolution, a possible video game tax made me instantly think about geeks and teens meeting a japanese ship full of ROMs at the port... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Tea_Party)
Unfortunately, we have representation for this taxation.  I just wish they'd stop "playing games" and start gaming.

Then little grasshopper, you are taking my post far too seriously.


I have no idea if this is a real example, but it would be hilarious if it was. A link please?


I have a better idea. You should pay lawyer tax! From my intense studies of the US (mostly from browsing totally neutral sources on the net, like http://www.americasucks.com/) I have found that there is at least one lawyer for every citizren in your country. This way, you would be paying the proper taxes you deserve for being such imperalist aggressors.

It is just a show that comes on here and there, the Dudesons. It is your country's answer to "Jack Ass," which was a show where a bunch of idiots do stunts and things that usually end up very painful. Anyway, there might be video someplace of this online, but I only saw it on TV at some point.



We do, lawyers tax us on an almost daily basis. You live your life, and then a lawyer comes at random, takes you to court, and taxes you.

We also have a health tax. Everytime you eat a cheeseburger, your health is taxed until you die, but not before losing most of your money to health supplies and other assorted oddities to keep your breathing.

Oh God. Our country has a history of 1000+ years of culture art and refinement (sort of kinda notreally). Please don't tell me that our greatest representation in your country (bar being featured on Conan) is through Extreme duudssonit. I think anyone watching that should pay stupidity tax. It's actually on national television in the US?


I was hoping for a witty pun along the lines of, "Oh how these lawyers tax me. It is most vexing to deal with them." But alas. Still, it is good to know you pay taxes, although I still hold you should pay more just for being so inferior to the effective supremacy that is E.U. Or something.

On a more serious note, would you mind telling me a bit about your taxes Draxas? Either in PM if you feel uncomfortabler discussing financial issues out in the open, or just in the thread. Specifically, I'd be interested in what sort of income tax/earnings bracket you have, and how high these taxations on cars and property are in your expensive state. I'd like to compare them with the average level over here, out of curiosity.

Also, didn't you people have ANY tax on videogames before? Over here, we have tax on everything. Books, food, movies, you name it. Or is this an extra tax added to the regular entertainmenttax of some sort?

Ooooh!
Draxas, if you accept Luki's offer, would you be so kind to make a photo of the look on your face when you learn how high taxes he has to pay, and post it here, please?


Wha?
Isn't that called VAT? Or is your government even better at making things needlesly complicated then mine?

Spike TV seems to have them (http://www.spiketv.com/shows/dudesons/index.jhtml) (warning: broken Flash detection all over the site; disable JavaScript to avoid getting stuck in a "Get Flash" error message).

Well looks like that show has mastered the art of stupidity. Its not even funny, it is along the lines of white trash and idiocy.

Mitt Romney.  A conservative who won governorship of Massachusetts.  And they still like him there.  Maybe he's not well-known enough to win, but if his performance as a governor or as an organizer of the 2002 Winter Olympics is any indicator, he'd be a great candidate for president.

The stupid tax is masquerading as a state-funded lottery, in my country.  People who can't do math pay the tax, and the government keeps half of it.  They say that only one person can win the lottery, but that's not true.  The government is more than one person, and it wins every time.


Even in jest... it's not funny.  The philosophy that other people should pay more for something because they're getting a good deal destroys the foundation upon which wealth is built.


The Dems are looking at becoming a permanent minority in this country (possibly) because they can't even out-perform the Republicans.  I don't love the Republicans, and I actually hate a lot of them.  But the Democrats don't provide a superior alternative.  I just hope it doesn't devolve into a one-party system, because that's just ripe for abuse.

Ignore Luki; he just wishes he lived 200-400 Km to the east, 20 years ago.   :P  (Just in case it's misinterpreted, I'm joking Lukipela [I know Finns have a healthy dislike of the old USSR/CCCP]).

Home Improvement mentioned Finland quite frequently... using it as the stereotypical harmless foreign country.  Does that count?  ;-)

Or maybe your sense of humour differs from mine? Other than that, you are reading an incredible lot into a sentence. When did I ever state that I thought Draxas was getting a good deal? I just want him taxed because I'm an unpleasant person.



I didn't intend for it to be an internet pissing contest about who pays the most taxes. To be fair, I also get a lot more out of the taxes than Draxas could ever hope for.


Yes, i think it translates to VAT. My question, though clumisly phrased, was wether videogames were VAT free and are now being taxed, or wether this is an extra tax on top of the VAT. Keep in mind I know nothing about the american system for taxation of goods.


Why 20 years ago? It isn't like there have been any significant improvements for our dear neihbours since then.


EDIT:

This magically appeared while I was writing my post


Well, mellow PR is better than bad PR I suppose.

You want to talk taxes, eh? I realize you folks in the EU have got me beat hands down (which doesn't mean I have a *low* cost of living, to be sure). Besides, Luki says these things just to be unpleasant, by his own admission. Congratulations, mission accomplished, you're unpleasant. :P

As for what kind of taxes we pay, yeah, we have some sort of tax on just about any kind of material goods (save unprocessed food and clothing here in NJ) and services: That would be our recently increased sales tax, which is now at 7%. Income tax... I believe the federal government liberated approximately 25% of my paycheck last year for their own use, and NJ took an additional cut of ~10% (I think, I try not to dwell too much on my income taxes after I finish filling them out). I rent an apartment, rather than own, so I can't really give you a figure on property tax since it's integrated into my rent bill every month. However, on average, a quarter-acre of property with a modest house on it will probably run you around $15,000 a year here in NJ. Which is why a lot of people leave for greener pastures in Pennsylvania and elsewhere.

On top of this, our wonderful governor recently announced that the state government may soon allow individual townships and municipalities to charge their own local taxes in addition to all of this. As if I didn't shell out enough to keep this country doing what it does.

WARNING: the following post is not completely serious. Read at your own risk, and at that of your ego's.



Plus a stupidity import toll should be charged to the source nation. ;)



As far as I can tell, this statement implies that you either have this on television where you live as well, you know these people personally. . .or you ARE one of them with the scares and missing limbs/neurons to prove it. :o

But yes, despite the disingenious stereotype, we are a people who embrace and worship other cultures, like yours, which is represented every week by these average examples of your apparently very. . .interesting people. :)



Or perhaps because of our inferior empire we should pay less? I mean as long as the roads are smooth and the military can kick the world's ass three times over, what more could you want?


Schools: Sucks the life out of kids through bullying, too many useless subjects (american literature- yuk) and wastes study time on bus rides, detention, and feeds kids poison in the cafeterias. Which is why grades have slumped and children are looking more and more like the pillsbury doughboy. Let's not get started on American higher education.
This is also why you have wikipedia, google, and amazon.com, the true carriers of the torch of knowledge.

Heath Care: Do to a national pandemic of Fatassikin's disease, this would break the country if we tried to give it to everyone who couldn't afford it on their own.
This is also why you have wrist weights and legs- start running. For those who find this approach too difficult, this is why we have shovels and extra wide coffins.

Welfare: Obviously, if national poverty was already a big problem for us, we would maybe defend our southern border.
This is also why you have prisons.

Police: Everyone is plenty well armed, why have a redundant system?

Disaster Relieve: Hehehe.

Lawyers: No need to say anything about this.


Now Europe doesn't need all of these things either, but you aren't superior if you won't throw money at lots of different projects. Complexity is the secret to greatness, especially if something is too complex for anyone to be able to tell if it is great or not. Also two must-haves for Europe:

Police: If you want to have muslims immigrants in your country AND freedom of speech, this is a necessity.

Lawyers: the secret to having no significant or effective military is to have lawyers to write international laws. International laws put up an invisible and invincible dome around your country, rendering your need for armed forces a thing of the past. Also, lawyers help complicate things (see above.)

Exception: Finland, where the use of lawyers has been avoided by the use of citizen justice-- if you don't like your neighbor, dig a tiger-trap into his driveway while he's out.

Like I said, I'm not interested in competing for who has the higher taxes. Our systems are much too different for that to even make sense. I'm simply interested in what kind of taxes you pay. Not interested enough to actively go out and search for US taxes on the net, but interested enough that anything you just rememebr is welcome information for me.


Well, if you equate "telling jokes that I don't find funny" to unpleasant, then you are essentially correct. You must meet a lot of unpleasant people.


See? I've already learned something. i was under the impression that income tax in the US was much lower than that. Would you mind posting which sort of income bracket you're placed in (or just PM it), just so I can compare it to the taxes here?


This is abit vague seeing as I don't know how you define a modest house. I'll have a look at it myself at some point.


Wel lalready pay that kind of tax, but the nagain, we don't have any state, so we don't have a state tax. what kind of taxes do you have on alcohol, fuel, cigarettes and cars? any of those you can remember would be interesting.


Assuming you're still referrign to duudssonit, we already pay a stupidity import toll. Not monetary, but cultural.


Yeah, their series was on television here as well a few years back, around the same time as Jackass staretd showing. I always figured they just got inspired by that, and then brought it a bit further. Nowadays they are infrequently mentioned i nthe media, i think the last time was when they managed to burn down some cottage or other.


Er.. More taxes?


Something incredibly complex, that burns incredible amounts of money? Something that is far too complex for you to even be sure of it's actual worth? Oh, we have that. It's called E.U. Also, we don't really need lawyers to solve our international rpoblems. We're quite capable of putting our fingers in our ears and singing "LALALALALALALLA" without them, until someone else takes care of the problem. Only after that will we step out and mercilesssly criticize them, with our rapier wit. That'll teach both sides to behave.

Other than that, I think you might as well brace for a storm. Soon, people will be telling you that you are unpleasant, or not evben funny in jest. If you are really lucky, Term might return to smite you and your leftie commie liberal statements with some well placed rethoric regarding Heinz ketchup.

I miss Terminator. I've seldom seen someone that brilliantly incapapble of staying on topic in any debate.

Yes, but think of the toll its taking on our culture. And we're innocent impressionable americans, its not our faults that crazy drunken berserkers are coming over our airwaves.



Okay how about this, you send us the duudssonit band to live here permanently, and we don't have to pay more taxes? I think that is quite fair.



Well, I know very little about european law, but comparing the bulk of the US and EU constitutions and then given how complex the US legal system is, despite the simplicity of the constitution on which it is based, my projects show that walking in parks while wearing a snorkel and kilt, growing out your hair (under the condition you wear a beret at all times) and digging car traps in your neighbor's driveway are the only things that one can safely do without breaking a law or city ordinance.



Well if they are americans, I can sue them for intentional infliction of emotional distress, and if they are europeans they have broken 56 laws in the process of calling me such, and will be locked up for three life sentences (unless they are good, then they might make perol in a few months.)

But you are right, I should consider what kind of damage I could be doing to my reputation and social status. . .(looks over at his reputation and social status- sees smoldering ruin and bleached skeletal remains). . .hmm well nevermind that then.

Kyaiee!

I don't make much. I'd prefer not to get into greater detail than that.


Modest being defined as a typical 3 bed/2.5 bath. I don't have details on things like square footage or anything terribly specific, but as I understand, this is pretty typical of central Jersey suburbs; other areas could easily be even more expensive.

Let's put it a different way: Economists at Rutgers University released a report yesterday on the rate of increase of property taxes. On average, for NJ, property taxes increased somewhere on the order of ~40%, whereas the cost of living wage increase  was ~5%. I believe that study covered only one year. That should give you a pretty good idea why fewer and fewer people can afford to live in this state.


So, essentially we're on par under the current system: We pay state tax, but not local, you pay local tax, but not state. With this increase, we get the triple threat. Of course, it's probably worth mentioning that other states have allowed local taxes for years, but their tax rates tend to be much lower in general.

Taxes on specific items vary a great deal, and also vary by state as well. I can't really vouch for the exact rates of "vice taxes" here in NJ, as I don't partake in said vices. However, cigraettes tend to run ~$5.50 - 7.00 a pack here. Alcohol, of course, varies wildyly based on quality, popularity, etc., so a price would be meaningless.

The average price per gallon in NJ is currently hovering right around $3, though the recent closure of the pipeline in Alaska is expected to cause that number to spike considerably in the coming months. I realize that fuel is much cheaper in the US than anywhere in Europe, but that's a consequence of actually having a national oil reserve, I suppose; the last figure I heard was that the Saudis pay ~30 cents per gallon for their gasoline, so I guess it's all relative.

As far as I'm aware, there is no separate tax on automobiles, though with all the legal mumbo-jumbo and rediculous surcharges levied by car dealerships, I can't really be sure that's the case. However, the 7% sales tax applies to their purchase, at the very least.


*sigh*

Soooooory Luuuuki, I won't do it agaaaaaain.

Not even by PMing me a large income bracket into which you fall with the express purpose that it wont be posted here, or anywhere else?

Next time you buy a bottle of alcohol (assuming you do), could you check how large amount of the price is tax.

For a refernce on taxes, we may (about) 65% tax on fuel. The is independant of the price though, if the fuel becomes cheaper the tax percent is higher, and vice versa. On cars, we pay a 22% tax i believe.

How's this: I make more than minimum wage (which I think is up to $6.50 / hour in NJ), and less than 6 figures per year. Is that too wide?

Payscale is not a topic I enjoy discussing. I chose to enter a field that is both highly technical in nature and less-than-generous in terms of compensation, simply because it's what I like to do. I have to have "serious discussions" with people who know how much I make on a regular basis, is there any chance I could avoid doing so with anonymous strangers on the internet as well? Thanks.


I drink on an annual basis: a glass of champagne on new years (if I actually bother to get through the whole glass). Suffice to say, I tend not to purchase alcohol, so I think someone else may have to help you with that one.


Sheesh. Then again, it makes a certain amount of sense from the perspective of being as independant from foreign oil as possible. If nobody can afford to drive, then you don't have to import any oil, right? Things should be so simple. ::)

Still, gas and cars are cheap(er) in the US because they're domestic industries. Especially in our current administration, where all the top dogs are oilmen, why would they want to levy more taxes on their own products? This is to say nothing of how powerful the oil and automotive lobbies are in Washington. Betrayal of your constituents is tantamount to political suicide, and both industries have their hands in the pockets of both major parties. This is not even considering the factor of the Bushes and the Saudi Royal family, etc. Suffice to say oil will remain (relatively) cheap here vs. Europe for some time, and those cars will stay on the roads as long as they keep coming out of factories in the US.

Fair enough.


So the champagne just turns up at your house?


Actually, I think the principle is "If we tax the bollocks out of everyone who even looks like they can afford it, we can finance all those lovely social services that are abused by the dregs of society".


I was under the impression that the US automobile industry is doing rather badly. So is there a large differenc in price between domestic US cars and international ones? Europe produces a very large amount of cars as well. I tihnk Finland probably is the only country in the union that doesn't produce regular cars. And the one with the highest import tax.

Yeah, bubbly is sort of mystical like that. ;)

Actually, I just let the heavier drinkers spend the money. I drink so little, it's hard to accuse me of being a mooch and forcing me to pitch in.


In other words, we're not so different after all. ::)


Currently, American car companies are doing rather poorly, but they're on the road to recovery. That's what happens when you stake your company's life on the concept of every family owning a gas-guzzling tank, while the mideast is even more unstable than usual. A major paradigm shift for GM, at least, is what's kept them only partially submerged in the crapper.

It's hard to say if there's much difference between the prices of "domestic" and "foreign" cars, because those lines are so blurred now. Sure, Toyota and Honda are obviously Japanese companies, but the majority of the vehicles they produce are now assembled in plants in the US. Most other major car companies have done the same thing to remain competitive in the American market, so there really isn't much in the way of import charges on a lot of the cars you can buy here. Then again, the ones that they don't make in the US are either insanely expensive to begin with (those Italian sports cars immediately spring to mind), or have little to no presence in the market to begin with (I can't remember the last time I saw a Peugeot being sold here; are they even still in business?). The only possible excpetions are an assorted few German companies, which tend to sell pretty pricey vehicles anyway.

same here....