The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

Hello everybody. I’ve calculated the sizes of all the Star Control ships.
Previously, I had calculated the size of the Earthling Cruiser, but my calculation was flawed. I had assumed that a dark pixel meant that the pixel was not completely occupied, which I now realize to be a bad assumption in that case and several other cases.
Now I’ve used a revised calculation based on the actual size of the MX missile, and confirmed (in the limits of accuracy) by the Vindicator picture. I present my results below: :)

(http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/4620/cruisermissilesizingkk3.th.jpg) (http://img82.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cruisermissilesizingkk3.jpg)

(http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/290/vindicatorintroductionscreensizingus3.th.jpg) (http://img216.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vindicatorintroductionscreensizingus3.jpg)


...and now for the endless pixel recording, which is different for most ships based on whether they are facing up or to the right.

Pixels (up/right):

Vindicator: 86/100
Cruiser: 70/84
Dreadnought: 62/66
Broodhome: 68/78
Guardian: 42/46
Avatar: 76/78
Skiff: 26/34
Marauder: 76/78
Mauler: 68/72
Podship: 46/52
Trader: 62/60
Nemesis: 46/46
Terminator: 26/28
Eluder: 44/52
Fury: 38/38
Blade: 60/60
Penetrator: 60/72
Jugger: 58/58
Torch: 44/44
Stinger: 46/46
Scout: 24/26
Avenger: 62/66
Intruder: 34/40
Probe: 66/???
Drone: 28/32
Transformer (Laser-Form): 36/38
Transformer (Missile-Form): 48/50

Notes: The Dreadnought, Skiff, Fury, Jugger, Scout, Stinger, and Intruder have engine jets not counted in length, and the Probe and Podship has glowyness not counted. The wires that glow in the probe are not counted as well. I was unable to get a picture of the probe with the long axis pointed toward the right.

Seemingly, the lengths change when the orientation of the ships changes (this is especially prevalent for the SC1 ships, probably indicating a screw-up of some sort). However, the Skiff is obviously supposed to be a circle, but its length and width are only identical when facing upward. Thus, I would guess that this is the right orientation for everything, and it gives a nice in-game conversion ratio of 2.5 pixels per meter. :)

We now obtain the final sizes.

Lengths (using “up”) in meters:

Vindicator: 215
Cruiser: 175 (base)
Dreadnought: 155
Broodhome: 170
Guardian: 105
Avatar: 190
Skiff: 65
Marauder: 190
Mauler: 170
Podship: 115
Trader: 155
Nemesis: 115
Terminator: 65
Eluder: 110
Fury: 95
Blade: 150
Penetrator: 150
Jugger: 145
Torch: 110
Stinger: 115
Scout: 60
Avenger: 155
Intruder: 85
Probe: 165
Drone: 70
Transformer (Laser-Form): 90
Transformer (Missile-Form): 120

In the 320x200 graphics mode used by PC SC1 and SC2, the pixels are 20 % higher than they are wide. Does it make more sense if you take that into account?

This is kinda funny :-)

It's a game, and not a sim by any means. Are ship lengths important? Do we plan to run a D20 Star Control campaign sometime soon? Or maybe a GURPS module?

I hope not. That could kill any chance of Star Control 4 ;-)

Obligitory GURPS Star Control URL: http://hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu/~mcmartin/gsc/ (http://hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu/~mcmartin/gsc/)

...yeah, actually, I was planning to with some friends. This topic will help a lot!

Why do you think this would kill any chance of SC4, OOPman?

It still doesn't make sense with this. The only one that actually changes by 20% is the Earthling Cruiser. The other change by much less, and the SC2 ships (besides the Vindicator) change either none or only a couple of pixels.


I have no clue what any of this means. ;D Could someone enlighten me?

Actually, the old CRT displays that had the 320x200 resolution had pixels that were wider than they were high.  I suspect some of the variance stems from that in the original SC1 ships.

For that matter, I don't understand where the pixel readings in the original post were derived from. Examination of the source PNG files for the Ur-Quan
Dreadnought shows that it is 35x28 pixels when facing to the right, and 29x33 pixels when facing upwards.

A better explanation for this phenomenon would be to look at the scaling that occurs as the ships "turn".

I suspect that the ships were all drawn in either the "face up" or "face right" orientation originally (I assume "face up" and I'll talk about why in a moment). 

As I mentioned above, facing upwards, the Dreadnought is 29x33 pixels "face up".  In its first tilt to the right it is 30x33, then 34x31, 35x29, and finally 35x28.

If you look at the PNG files carefully, they painstakingly provide similar shadowing and detail at every angle - not always proportionate, but very deliberate nonetheless.  I suspect the "bloat" on pixel size has less to do with any error, but rather a deliberate attempt on the part of the artist(s) to maintain a smooth transition for the eye as the ship rotated on-screen (bearing in mind that these pixels were much larger and not perfectly proportioned as today's pixels tend to be).

Since the pixel "bloat" occurs as the ships from SC1 transition from "up" to "right", I would wager that the original blueprint was created in the "up" position (borne out also by the ship display in the right hand panel, which was probably used to model the first battle image for each ship).


D20 and GURPS are both references to pen-and-paper role playing games along the vein of Dungeons and Dragons.  D20 is a reference to the published rules that govern the latest incarnation of Dungeons and Dragons (version 3.0 and later), and GURPS is the Generic Universal Role Playing System which has been published for about two decades by Steve Jackson Games.

Fuaaaagh!! GURPs and D20 are like the plague. Or something :-)

But then and again, I don't think Star Control would really work as an Unknown Armies module :-(

And if you don't know about UA then refer to the WikiPedia...

The pixel values I provided were taken in 640x480. I did this so that I would know that I made a pixel measuring mistake if I obtained an odd value. Of course, only the ratios between the pixels matters.
The rest of the distortion is probably because I did not count the engine exaust that is part of the 'normal' graphic in some ships (see original post).

Yeah, games where you have to use your imagination suck! :P

Those calculations make the Cruiser bigger (or at least longer) then the Dreadnought.
Now the Dreadnought is a space fighter carrier that contain 41 fighters in it. Don't you think that 155 meters is way too small?
For comparison, nowday's Nimiz class aircraft carriers length is 333 meters.

Pah, I was taking a shot at D20 and GURPS, systems I have a strong dislike for....

Unknown Armies, on the other hand, is brilliant. An incredibly quick-to-play system that's easy to learn and yet isn't particularly forgiving. It's also mostly very well balanced. Also, UA features possibly some of the best magic ever seen in an RPG. And to top it off, it has a great setting to boot :-)

I know, I know, lots of people get their kicks out of DnD and so forth, but I've also preferred a role-playing experience which involves more role-playing and less roll-playing :-)

I'm not a huge GURPS fan either, but I like how you can make almost any setting in it.

I oughta try UA now, from what you said about it, it sounds interesting...

In space, a runway is pointless.

In the ocean, you have unlimited reaction mass.

See why perhaps smaller ships might be a good idea in space?

But if you build your ship big enough it might collapse and form a black hole, which would be a very nasty trick :-)

Jumping Peppers: Give UA a shot. It's a horror RPG with a modern setting. Oh gah, I totally forgot. It's got probably the best sanity system of any RPG. Yes, that includes CoC :-)

But wouldn't the Ur-quan fighters be larger then modern aircraft?
What about all the life support, engiens, weapon systems, Slaveshield generator and all the other stuff that a Dreadnought have on it besides fighters?

I just expect a ship like the Dreadnought to be rather huge, not smaller then modern day ships.

It's all about good PR UAF...

Here's a suggestion - contact TFB and ask them to give us canonical ship sizes or license to argue our own sizes and make them standard.

as for the pen&paper bit - we adapted SC for P&P a few years back, played it to death and eventually (i.e. 3 months) reverted back to the good ol' great big swords, dragons and fireballs thing. For some reason, combat with ships and planetary systems don't translate well into dice (it gets far too complex and you end up with a 30 second encounter between a dreadnought and a scout taking about five hours wall time).

As for the role- vs roll-playing argument - roll-playing? Are you playing with dungeoncrawlers? Walk six feet, kill five skeletons, walk six feet, kill a few orcs, walk six feet, kill a few (random)s? I play D20 3rdE DnD every saturday night/sunday morning and we use the dice about twice in an hour or so - except the D20, but since I'm the GM I have to inflict terror on the poor players periodically. Admittedly, we play more politically and diplomatically than violently, since I hate dungeoncrawling with a rabid passion - wastes time. This is the same reason I am so passionate in my hatred for modern FPS games.

Anyway.

I've had great fun playing in campaigns that are both story-driven as well as silly dungeon crawls. I've also been involved (however briefly) in some horrible examples of both... It's all about execution. A good GM goes a long way towards making any game much more interesting (and amusing).

Yeah, good GM'ing is key.

Unfortunately the D20 rules don't go out of their way to encourage role-playing and the class system has a nasty habit of screwing with some peoples' minds. Oh, not to mention that, overall, the base D20 rules have got a lot of glaring holes in them that makes certain character concepts and play-styles largely irrelevant. Still, as long as it's D20 which maintains a monopoloy on poor quality, I don't mind.

Me, I think I'll stick to stuff like UA and so forth. Or, when I do feel the need to play a systemic system, SilCORE :-)

Keep in mind a few things:

1. The Dreadnought is not smaller then modern day ships. It is smaller then supercarriers, sure, but it is still very big.

2. The Ur-Quan are the most technologically advanced race in the area, besides the Chmmr. This means that they can make all their components smaller, with the same operating efficiency as other races.

3. The fighters have indeterminate size, but judging by their cockpit sizes in the spec picture (assuming the cockpit to be Earthling-size), they are probably somewhat smaller then modern airplanes. In addition, they are launched in space, so they can probably just be all lined up and stacked on a rack in the back of the Dreadnought. As a side note, since the fighters do not have hyperdrive systems, their size cannot be compared to the ships in the game, though they should be comparable to the asteroids, for what it’s worth.

4. The Dreadnought probably should not ‘actually’ carry 41 fighters anymore then the Cruiser carries infinite missiles. I would guess it has about 16 or so.


As for role-playing Star Control battles, why not just fire up Star Control to do the job?

That worked at first, until someone decided that a race can't have ONLY one ship type...