The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

I'm feeling friggen low right now, so I'm going to vent and express why I think (right now) there's no hope for us geeks to continue to cling to the sides of this derilict idea.

First of all, what space game do you know has been financially successful? I'll bet you can't name 3. Financially successful genre's have people. In that StarControl is perhaps the closest to doing this with the pilot pictures, but otherwise you spend an awful lot of time stairing top down at a spaceship which, generally, does not seem attract.

It is my opinion that this huge flaw will cause this otherwise fantastic game to go nowhere fast. I'll admit, UQM has sparked my hope from time to time, but we've been on 0.5 for coming up on a year now. To say this project has platued is a bit of an understatement. Somehow the project just doesn't inspire the talented skill base that could make things happen. On the other hand, Megaman is constantly inspiring fan made sequels (http://forums.bobandgeorge.com/viewforum.php?f=15). Many of these project don't make it as far as this project has, but many of them make it to an advanced level of cool.

Oh, gawd, I'm so depressed.

What "derelict idea"? Space games in general? Or Star Control? If the former, that's only because of the way the market's swung for the moment. If the latter, I couldn't disagree more.

As a matter of fact, I *can* name three - Elite, Escape Velocity, and the upteen-million MMORPGs that are all alike. And technically, I don't recall hearing that Starflight or Star Control failed (past SC-Not-3).

While it is possible that UQM might take a while to get to the finish line, that was no surprise to begin with. The game's been developed since 2002. People have lives -- particularly the people most likely to bring UQM to a finished level. Megaman also isn't particularly difficult to clone -- a game to the level of SC2 is, particularly if you want to do it right.

In the long run, I expect space games will hang in, as they always have. They may not be succeeding to quite the same level as to first-person-shooters, but they aren't going anywhere very fast.

- Bob

How about this;

You have Melee as a factor of the game, not the main meat. For example...


Let's say we have an RPG or something, like a gaiden to the storyline, involing various alliance races as the major characters. Add the actual element of skill (Like choosing limbs to target in attacks, maybe inside a tactical based-battle system with range and so on) and have lots of nice graphics. From here on add the Super Melee, add multiple ship combat, with objective based missions, also tweak around with the SCNot3's Colony system, make it shinier, make it more interactive and make it more interesting. Then add other other stuff such as mini-games and so on, basically diversify the game out, add cool stuff in (hey, let's face it, new gamers these days seem to have a low attention span) and the cracking script from the previous game, and your set. A new UQM game would fit well onto the DS in my eyes...

Of course they actually need a larger fan-base, and what better way to do it than make fan-games? Can't be hard, right? Maybe not, as it'll take hellava time to work on the coding, etc. I'm a sprite artist, and I'm willing to work with anyone on a Star Control fan-game if they want to work on, 2 years experience :D.

3 succesful Sci-Fi games, mmm... Good point, thing is though, the market is getting saturated with Fantasy stuff, so Sci-Fi could have it's breakthrough now, well, here goes;

Halo

Metroid Prime

Star Ocean

X3 (and other's in the series. Hey, this makes four...)

Gundam (meh, anime, make this a 1/2)

Half Life 2 (Less space, but aliens are in the mix)

Raiden

Ikuraga

Gradius (3 shooters in a row, same principle of gameplay, still fun to play)

BIG ONE SOON TO BE RELEASED:

SPORE


Ok, to back up the whole Sci-Fi vs. Fantasy thing...

Many, many gamers I know are sick to death of killing so many slimes to level up. A lot of them would like to play games that revolve around the player's skill, not the patience. As the general trend tends to be, Fantasy games relly more on skill than Sci-Fi, as Sci-Fi normally has more shooters, strategy, and so on, that are reliant on the consumer's level of play. Of course, I'm really only refering to Jap-edival games, which tend to follow this cliche, the only ones I've seen different of are the Ys and Zelda stuff...

 

Asteroids, Xwing, Tie-Fighter, Xwing vs. Tie Fighter, WC series, Starcraft, World of Starcraft (would be successful), Dozens of FPS...

"First of all, what space game do you know has been financially successful?"

Uh you're kidding right? Mr. Glass -half - empty...?

Please define "financially successful".

Here's a flash game to cheer you up.

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/space

So that's how you would categorise "Star Control"? As a "space game"? I don't think the location where a game takes place really matters. What Star Control is about is exploration, solving mysteries, interacting with aliens, humor, improving your flagship, and fighting melee battles.
Agreed, there aren't many successful games like that; but that's because there aren't many games like that, period. Toys for Bob have always aspired to create original games that cannot easilly be fit in one genre. This is not a weakness. The most successful games aren't clones of other games.

(That said, there have been plenty of hugely popular games that take place in space (I don't know how much money they made though). From Trade Wars to Master of Orion to Privateer to the Star Trek games.)

Bull. If this were your only remark I wouldn't even have bothered responding. Most games have people. It should not be surprising, because real life is about people, and games need to be played from the perspective of something.
So yes, there will be a lot of (genres of) games that are about people, and hence there will be a lot of successful games that are about people.
But I see no indication that games that aren't about people are less successful. Just look at all the RTS games, god sims, shmups, puzzle games, dance games, flight simulators, and racing games, to name a few.
(Also, a big part of UQM (and the most important part imho) is about people, namely the conversations you have with them.)

You could look at it from another way: how many Open Source games, run by a few people in their spare time, do you know that are still active after 4 years?

That's not all that surprising, considering there are many more people familiar with Megaman than there are those who know Star Control. How many official Megaman games have been made now? Would 10 be an overstatement?

Ten Megaman games would be a very big understatement (http://www.gamefaqs.com/search/index.html?game=mega+man). Similarly, the Castlevania (http://www.gamefaqs.com/search/index.html?game=castlevania&platform=0) series has a fair number of games under its belt. Both are very successful franchises, and have at least two things in common that gives them an advantage over Star Control:

1: Both have had a roughly 5 year head start on Star Control. Any franchise that has managed to be successful for this long is naturally going to have a larger fan base.
2: Their products have had a wider viewing audience, mainly due to what systems they were released on (NES being both franchises' jumping point).

In the case of Star Control, it has had releases on PC (for DOS) and the 3DO. While both systems were technically capable of handling the games TFB produced, at this point in time the PC did not have nearly as big of a gaming audience as the then-extant SNES or Genesis. I suspect that if the enhanced SC2 (http://uqm.stack.nl/wiki/Star_Control_2) had made its way to the Playstation (which was just around the corner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playstation)) in addition to 3DO, it could only have increased the awareness of the game that much more.

With the porting of UQM to modern operating systems, we are effectively doing something to alleviate issue 2. There may be a lot of Megaman and Castlevania homebrew clones out there, but none of them can claim to having the original game logic available at their fingertips. Advantage: us.

With the code available to everyone, it is possible for those with the knowledge to port and modify the game in ways which the Creators had not originally conceived! Net Melee is a prime example of this. Once this is brought to the "stable" 0.6 release, we will have nothing (bandwidth notwithstanding) stopping us from getting our friends in whatever remote corner of the world to try what is quite possibly the simplest, most addictive piece of fun conceived for any gaming platform! This will eventually cause some to wonder what that "New Game" option is all about, which can only end up bringing more converts to our cause.

I remember someone here theorizing that perhaps the reason the UQM source was released in the first place was to get enough attention brought back to it so that TFB would be able to get the green light for making another one. I'm not sure I entirely believe it. Regardless of that, even though I haven't bought a dedicated gaming system since the N64, nor a game for my PC since Diablo 2, I would be compelled (Dnyarri* style) to plunk down whatever price was necessary for some new Star Control goodness.

* /me adds the word "Dnyarri" to Firefox's dictionary.

guesst, I know how you feel.  It's been so long since April 16, and now that Toys For Bob finished Tony Hawk's Downhill Jam, I'm hoping that Alex does in fact propose Star Control to Activision as he wrote in his newspage.  I'm just worried, since there hasn't been a new posting on the TFB website since october 18.  But that doesn't stop me.  Alex mentioned that he is a very busy person; right now, I still continue to write him letters about Star Control,  and hope that he'll be making a post very soon...

Right now, we must continue to show our support, and continue writing.  Right now, TFB has placed their foot in the door once again because of the Tony Hawk racing game, and they're starting to gain popularity once again, and they're about to have an opportunity to propose a Star Control game to Activision.

I have Tony Hawk's Downhill Jam, and I saw the TFB intro before the game started, and do you know what I heard?  I heard the Ur-Quan theme, and the image of the TFB rocketship flying through, then the music switches over to the Orz theme, and displays the words "Toys for Bob".  Their intro theme has a star control written all over it!

If it weren't for rabid and dedicated science-fiction fans, Star Trek wouldn't have lasted as long as it did, and the world would be a much different place.  They wrote letters, and they never stopped until they got what they wanted.  We can't let them forget about Star Control too!

Alex asked for our help, and he cannot leave him hanging by himself.  If we continue to support his cause, no matter the outcome, we know that we did our best.

I agree.  I know I'd even buy it as presents for people who wouldn't be in the line with me waiting.  Heck, if it were for Wii, I'd have a reason to buy a Wii...  And truck drivers wold deliver more games and Wiis, and people would make (a tiny amount) more money making the Wiis, and they'd spend their money...  See? Star Control drives the World-wide economy.  It's TFB's altruistic duty to fight for a new SC.   ;D

Wait, the Intro has a reference to SC? Post a vid pleeeash! :D

Here's the video:

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=3642686138835120664&hl=en-CA

Sorry about the bad quality; I used a cell phone camera, and I don't have any tv tuners or RCA-USB devices...   If anyone can find a more permanent way of storing it, please let me know.  I should try storing it on google video or youtube.

EDIT: I made a more permanent link.

Thank you, Star Control liiiiiiiiiives!

Would Doom, Halo and Half-Life ,three hugely successful game franchises, fall into the category of "space game" ? Just curious... ;)

Well this generated a good discussion, and I'm feeling much better now, overall. (That silly little game helped a bit.) But I still don't hold out much hope for StarControl's future.

See, when I said space games, I meant games where you're player icon is a space ship. Any game where you're stareing at the back of a spaceship will be, I argue, financially less successful that one where you're looking at humans or humanoid creatures at any given moment. So, no Halo and Half-life don't count. The attract is just greater. The few acceptions in my mind of truely financially successfull games (the sort of financial success that will convince Accolade to back another game) IMHO are:

Star Fox
X-Wing (series)
StarCraft

And that's it. The rest of your suggestions have people as their central figures. No X-Wing, the only reason that did well was it was franchised from Star Wars and it's old. But StarCraft and StarFox were two that I don't think anyone saw comming as far as the level of success they've had. They totally break the mold, you're not looking at people for the most part, but they still have the attract and made it big. (Although one still wonders why Blizzard hasn't franchised StarCraft more.)

But StarControl never saw that sort of success and it's no wonder Activision is unsupportive about giving us another one.

Besides the fact, and here's another gripe, even if one came out would I want to play it now? I'm busy, busier than I was when I was 12. I don't have time to play UQM right now, so would I play it if it had an official TFB story?

...

Ah, who am I kidding. I'll just quit work.

PS. And hearing TFB kao-tao to SC2 in their bumper is definiately encouraging.

Activision has never stated anything saying that shows whether or not they actually support Star Control ("We currently do not have any information about Star Control", source (http://www.gamespot.com/news/show_blog_entry.php?topic_id=24521940)).  They just didn't want to say anything at that time, since TFB was working on Tony Hawk's Downhill Jam at the time.  We still have a chance that TFB will propose Star Control, and Activision will accept.  They're well respected, and Activision has to listen; plus with all our fan mail, nobody can ignore thousands of e-mails from fans like us.

We have time to read this forum; that doesn't mean that we don't have just as much time to play a new Star Control game.  Maybe when we watch TV, and a commercial comes up, we can take a few minutes to play Star Control.  Just like any other game.

As for success, we have to keep in mind that the video game market was crowded in the 90s, with the 3DO, atari, dreamcast, game boy, etc.  Accolade was involved, and they lost quickly, because of non-star-control-related issues.  With Activision now in the competition, Star Control will jump up and everyone will play this new space game that nobody has ever copied.

As for whether or not you would actually play it, of course you would!  If you downloaded UQM, and posted on the forum, and wondered every now and then about Star Control, you would buy this one, and show your support!  I know I will.

"One man can summon the future, but what happens to that future if that man does not live to see it himself?" - Star Trek

I did mention RTS games, god sims, shmups, puzzle games, dance games, flight simulators and racing games. It is not hard to find examples of "truly financially successful" games in those genres that don't have people at the centre.
RTS: Command and Conquer series
God sims: Sim City series, Civilisation series
Puzzle games: Tetris, Puzzle Fighter series, Bust a Move series, Lemmings, Lumines
Dance games: Dance Dance Revolution (I don't actually know many specific games in this genre myself.
Flight Simulators: Microsoft Flight Simulator
Racing games: Wipeout series, Gran Turismo series

I don't know where you get the idea that games that don't show a human(oid) most of the time would be less successful. It doesn't make sense either; why would anyone care? Would they enjoy seeing those people? Because they're physically attractive, or cute?
Or is it that it would help them identify with the main character? (As if most successful games actually have a story)

Besides, game publishers aren't just after the exceptionally succesful games. Making a decent profit is good enough. Why do you think Activision had TFB making movie spinoffs?
That is not to say that a new Star Control couldn't be an exceptionally succesful game. Have you ever heard anyone say he didn't like SC2? I've only seen one case, right on this board, and months later the person in question came back to apologise after giving it another chance. Those who give it a chance, love it. Getting people to try it is a matter of marketing. And word of mouth goes a long way.

And I mentioned Asteroids and Wing Commander.  Heck, if we can include old games like Asteroids where your avatar is a space ship...
Space Invaders
Defender
Gradius
Thexder (a 3D Thexder [or Robotech/Macross] game would be awesome)
SubSpace (technically not a financial success, but not because the game was unpopular, if continuum is any measure)
F-Zero (a racing/space game)
Mechwarrior series (kinda like big, walking space ships)

ooh... subspace/continuum... I got hooked on this because it was so similar to SC melee only massive multiplayer. Still play it today...  ;D

Anyways, to continue the list:
Descent Freespace series
Homeworld series
Master of Orion series
Ascendency
Alpha Centauri
...

I played SubSpace for 4 years, since the earliest beta versions. I even played in AM and Pro league squads. I have continuum installed now but rarely play anymore. And yes, SS/Cont. was a financial failure in a sense. The game was more of an expiriment for Virgin's fledgling game company at the time.

The spin-offs (programmed by the SubSpace programmers), "Infantry" and "Cosmic Rift", under the Sony online label, don't seem to be a huge financial success either. Infantry is fairly popular, as for Cosmic Rift , it's difficult to find a populated server to play on. Sony has a subscription to their game servers and offer several games including these two.

Another popular top-down space shooter is (was?) "Silent Death". I played it alot until they sold the game to AOL and gave AOL subscribers exclusive rights.

A random thought (brainfart): Maybe lowering expectations would help? I think if StarControl was made into a huge deal for all platforms next-gen yadda yadda, people would expect huge features that maybe wouldn't be very Star Control-ish, such as 3D space mixed with FPS(or shouldercam) for pilot adventures etc. This type of game might appeal to people not familiar with SC if the game is good and most importantly looks good.

The other route would be to appeal to the old fans. If it was an XBLA or PC sneak release thing like Geometry Wars or whatever people might put up with 2D topdown and development costs wouldn't be monumental. Pre release hype could be dangerous to such a title though.

But like I've said earlier, my main concern is that a game is made that isn't faithful to the SC universe. For me, faithfulness is far more important than what type of game it is. Also, if I had to choose between a sequel with good gameplay but horrible design faithfulness, and a sequel with mediocre gameplay but good design faithfulness, I'd go for the latter. Atleast it wouldn't ruin the universe for me. There's nothing that gets to me like the Syreen face, Tektites becoming generic spiders, etc. I suppose I see things from a special PoV though, being a concept artist / illustrator.

After having seen my favourite games destroyed (both gameplay and design faithfulness-wise), I can't help to feel great unease.

Well, since they are the original creators of Star Control, we won't have to worry about it not being faithful.  They won't just suddenly go "Let's make cool 3D ships, and FPS stuff, because it's cool!"  They're gonna think it over, and add things that make sense.  Personally, I don't really care whether or not it is 2D or 3D; just as long as the gameplay is good, and that there's a nice story in it too. 

Star Control II has been named by Gamespot as one of the greatest games of all time, and TFB knows that!  Whatever is done with this new Star Control game, they know what they're doing.  With all the support from fans like us, they can't forget about the magic of Star Control II.

One of the many things I like about Star Control is the ships;  I just hope they use all 25 ships from Star Control II, and then add some more!  That would be nice, but I don't want to tell them how to do their own jobs.  We just have to keep telling them that Star Control is the only answer!

I also played Subspace/Continuum a bit in college and shortly after. When I started using/developing for Linux I left it
behind. Recently, with Wine development improving, I've been able to play Contiuum again on my Linux box. Yea!

Agreed. Why not get the quake kiddies on board and sell more copies? AS long as the story remains true. SC canon should be priority #1 imo. Personally I lean toward a 2D PC title but am not opposed to appealing to a broader audience and going 3D.,multi platform etc..

I also believe SC3 had a higher learning curve than it's sequals and keeping a new SCsimple to operate is a must.

I think that releasing the game in Xbox Live! is probably the best option we have.

The development costs for this kind of game are not huge (as opposed to current 3d games), people don't mind it being 2d, and is sells like hot cakes.

And this way, we could guarantee that the universe wouldn't be spoiled by some 3D game made to please the masses...

I think SC2 on XBLA would be awesome. That would be a great way to drum up support for the franchise.

Though in response to the original poster about there not being many fan-made sequels -- worry not! I'm still working away on my SC2-inspired top-down shooter. My plan is to make its single-player and multiplayer modes very true to the SC style. In fact, the multiplayer mode is basically done. We're mostly just doing gameplay tweaks, content, and debug now.

Plus, I've just finished changing the code to make it simple and fast to mod. My goal is eventually to write a tutorial on how to mod it, using an SC theme as an example. In that sense, there could be a fan-made SC sequel within the next 6 months or so.

Oh man I just had the craziest idea.  It's so awesome you're gonna be... seriously baffled! What if... a gate opens between the SF and SC universes and Spemin meets Umgah, G'Nunk - Thraddash, Dweenle - Utwig, Natracch - ZFP!  OMG, nuts! Crazy in the cocunut! What-a brawl!

Doesn't Wii has a download service too?

Yes, the Wii can download games... such as the classic games, and it would be cool if Star Control II was downloadable for it; I haven't tried the online services on my Wii, since I don't have a wireless router or a ethernet adaptor for it.  Definitely would be a great step to getting Star Control to the public...

And it would motivate me more to get that router for my Wii

Already thought of it. :P
I was going to call it "The Spemin Masters" (a phrase from SF2's manual.) :)
Just don't attack a Veloxi Warship with a Vux Intruder, you might lose track of which one is which. ???

It would be more fun than the classic Starcraft Vs. Halo fusion.

Might be fun to work both universes into your game (though you might have to look into the IP issues.)

IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN!!! I just came back from a meeting over at EA who just purchased all the licences! Here's my notes from the brainstorming meeting!

---

The player will enter the role of SLADE, a tough mercenary out for revenge! Later the player can unlock Xeara, A stealthy sexy babe, and Grawth, a buff Klingon-like alien with a serious attitude that needs to be kept in check (through scripted dialog).

I was thinking we could have slot in system the ships, each ship has 5 slots, in which you can put equipment that unlocks during the progress of the game. We'll call this Equipment Slot-in System, or ESS for short! The new equipment will have to unlock slowly in a very linear fashion, too many choices will confuse the player.

When the player shoots down hordes of enemy ships, they will just disappear in a spectacular explosion, leaving containers that blink for 10 seconds, so the player will have to be quick to pick them up! The containers translates into money and it would be cool if the player had to shoot down hordes of enemy ships just to buy a new laser.

The GUI will feature cool techy fat borders around everything, and if you click a button there could be a WRREEEeee sound and a dialog box slowly slides into positions and locks with a CLACHUNK! Then the buttons appear, PIUUPP PIUUPP PIUUPP! Let's put Kenny on this, he made our Flash site and has experience of making cool DVD menus aswell.

As the player lands on a planet, there's only one location to visit, and since we want to tell a story, we're thinking of a heavily scripted event engine, it will make sure that the player doesn't break the storyline sequence. Well call this an innovative Sandbox Feedback Response System (SFRS) in the media though! Third person shooter along with a gamepad is the obvious choice as it enables us to show the back of the character, but since aiming or moving doesn't really work with these controls, we'll use a Z-target aim button. You hold it and the character will automatically shoot at the enemy with his bulky machinegun. Since the player can't really move well and will just jerk against walls, we'll use a Snap to Wall Cover System (StWCS).

As for the original designs, let's just change them into something cool, I was thinking Balrogs and Cavetroll stuff, maybe some cool stuff with teeth and these tatoos over the eyes. The whole thing could have a tribal feel! We could put Bob's nephew on this, he likes to draw. Did anyone play the original game by the way?

I'm missing the ninjas and mechas.

Allright, I just came back from the second meeting. We picked up some feedback from the kids on the street and have decided to take the thing in a different direction. We're going to focus on sneaker combat, featuring The Earth Defence Squad, the E.D.F.

These guys are totally sweet ninja dudes with goggles that has shining red eyes and a cool gasmask. This will appeal to our demographic of 13 year olds screaming AOL kids. They will be battling aliens that are trying to infiltrate the starbase and plant a bomb. The playes can either join the E.D.F. or the aliens in short multiplayer skirmishes with a built in voice chat you can't turn off. Oh yeah, we were thinking there could be mechas too. These mechas are vulnerable to knife stabs, it's a gameplay balance thing that will be great fun in conjunction with the sneaker element.

Sounds like a winner.

I almost cried. Please don't ever do that again. I don't think my heart could take it after SC3.

echo |sed -e 's/n/e/2'

Well, apparently hope and sarcasm spring eternal.

Thanks for the laugh, Arne. Here's a question, what happens when your space pirates meet your space ninjas?