The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

Hi all,

I'd like to hear from you all which ships you think are the best value (or worst value), starbucks-wise, for Melee and why.

I'll start!

BEST

Androsynth Guardian - I reckon this should be a couple of points extra - maybe 17. This ship is more than the equal of the Slylandro, Supox or Druuge. It can evade most ships just by virtue of its bubble clouds.  In my experience it does more that 15 points worth of damage to most ships.

Chmmr Avatar - Outclasses  Kohr-Ah and Ur-Quan and makes VERY short work of the Chenjesu. Essential agaisnt annoying fast ships like the Spathi, Pkunk, Slylandro and Arilou. Should be 33  pts

Utwig Jugger - I think most people have twigged on to this - should be 25 pts.

WORST

Ilwrath - purpose built for destroying earthlings in SC1 - a lame duck in SC2 - drop it 1 or 2 points.

Yehat - again, not the irrestistable force it was in SC1. The speed of SC2 on modern systems (I find) means that using the shields effectively is very difficult. Drop it to 20 points!

Best bang for the buck? Thraddish Torch. I don't think there is a ship I
can't easily defeat with that sexy after-burn.

Actually, I think the Cruiser creams the Torch, and at 11 points, it is also the best value. The Avatrar is also a great value, even the though the price per unit is high.

Using these two ships, I think there is little or nothing that could put up much of a fight against you.

Zeep-Eeep, The Torch only works as long as the enemy is moving. When I fight The Torch, I always just sit still and thus forcing the enemy to use it's main cannon.

Best:
Earthling Cruiser - Can take out most of the high-point (21 and above) ships, with a degree of luck, and stands a chance against many others at the same time. Low cost.
Androsynth Guardian - Can take out most of anything, high-point or not. Also low cost.
Shofixti Scout - Small package, big boom!
Yehat Terminator -  More balanced than the Jugger, and more than capable of pwning it. An elite pilot with a Terminator can sink a legion of ships.
Orz Nemesis - Can take out most ships with its uber-marines and ranged artillery. Capable against more costly ships.
Spathi Eluder - Effective, but undoubtably one of, if not the, most dull ships in the entire game.

Worst:
Umgah Drone - This ship is so utterly laughable for its price that it barely deserves 5 points, much less 7.
Mycon Podship - I appreciate the Podship more nowadays than I used to, but I still highly doubt that it is worth 21 points. It only barely justifies that distinction in SC1, because of the crew regeneration.

Good point, Tiberian. As long as you pillbox, the Torch is rather weak. But it is fun to light up the computer with it.   ;D

Anways, best values:

VUX - For only 12 starbucks, you can warp in right next to your enemy and gunk him up and inflict some damage. Even if you lose, the enemy is usually crippled.

Earthling - Usually does decent damage to the enemy, even if it doesn't win.

Melnorme - At only 18 starbucks, you can take on the big boys with reasonable chance to win. Surprisingly fast too. Also great for taking out annoying Yehats and Utwings.

Mmrnmhrm - A versatile ship that often gets overlooked.

Androsynth - See Cedric's post above.

Worst:

Mycon - Easily the most overrated ship. A good number of 'lesser' ships can dispatch of it with ease. I think it gets a lot of its value in SC1, when you'd automatically recrew your ship after a battle in the full game. Without that feature, its way overpriced.

Illwrath - See above. I've extolled its potential virtues in true 3-D combat at length, but it's fodder in Super Melee.

Pkunk - Personally, I think the cost is rather high for a ship that relies heavily on luck.

the most bang for my buck personaly are the following

1. The thradish torch - simply put, the torch is awesome for killing other ships or getting out of problems fast. The other nice thing that is often overlooked about the torch, although the main gun does almost no damage it shoots though just about anything. If you keep moving and fire carefully you can even take out someone unwilling to chase you.
2. The punkunk fury - it's fast, it can circle strafe and above all it just dosnt die. this ship has more lives then a cat with for rabbits feet.
3. Human Cruser - nothing strikes fear into my frieds quite like me at the helm of this ship. If you dont quite finish off one of the larger enemy ships simply jumping in and hitting them for 8 damage usually finalizes them. The human isnt very fast but if you sit near the planet you can use the gravaty well to get the speed the ship needs. It's PDL's are efficent the nukes work well on all but a few ships and finally and most importantly, it can turn fast enough to dodge some projectiles.
4. The Yehat Terminator - A ship banned from use by my friends. Timeing is EVERYTHING with this ship. if your timing is good the sheild will save you and let you tackle just about every ship, if your timing is better you can outlast the other ships combat battery and proceeded to minigun your target to pieces.
5. Orz Nemmis - This ship should take out 2-3 other ships by itself, usually big point guzzlers like the urquan's or the chmmr but after that it has no crew and just a long range gun and is running fast. Why you ask? the space marines! When you warp in start dropping alot of these guys on the feild and use your main turreted(!) gun to distract your enemy, the result theres more marines on the enemy ship then crew really fast, after that its just a matter of time. You take out 2 or three of their big ships like that and you will have a massive ship advantage really fast.

the most useless ships?
the slylandro probe - its super is non existant, its gun is short range and it's impossible to aim. I never use this thing, and tend to take them out very fast with a spathi or something with a rear fire/mine style weapon.
syreen ship - yes its fast, yes it can steal crew, the problem? you have to be close and your main gun is kinda lame. with alot of the larger ships having a system for solving the problem (urquan fighters/fireball circle, orz marines, mycon regen, PDL's) its not worth the loss of a ship.

helpful advice?
If you want to take the advantage in a hyper melee early start with a shofixi scout, if it dosnt destroy the enemies first ship then send it a human and finish it off...by then the human is moving quick and not as easy a target.

I suppose I should have specified that the Torch is my favourite in combat against the computer. The computer almost always moves.

Aganst another human player, it's a completely different story. I'd have to go with the Avatar then.

I'm wondering how many people here play against human opponents?  With that said:

BEST:

1. Thraddash.  I don't care if you're going to bunker down against it (I've actually never encountered this tactic in my years of playing vs humans), I'll pick you off.  The main gun may be a slow way to kill, but it's got range and I've got time.

2. Spathi.  Same thing.  Annoyingly long battles, but the butt missiles are great.

3. Sylandro.  Call it a 'personal fave' of mine.  It's fast as hell, has that annoying ability to reverse on the fly, and if allowed to get close can rip someone apart.

4. Pkunk.  Another fast ship, and as already mentioned, it will circle strafe someone to death.  Add in rebirth, and we have a winner.

5. Androsynth.  Getting stuck in a corner of someone's ship while in comet-mode is rather amusing.

WORST:

1. MMRNMHRM.  Can't turn worth a damn in 'fast' mode, and slow as balls in 'attack' mode.

2. Umgah.  I've gotten cheap key-lock kills in my day with it, but I can't value it as a 'useful' ship.  More like "I have a free slot and I want something annoying."

3. Earthling.  Don't see the love for it that the rest of the board has.  Maybe I'll have to net-play someone good to see what the hype is all about.

-kwamp

Best: Supox Blade and Arilou Skiff.

Skiff: Pretty much anything can take you out in one or two shots. However, actually getting that shot in can be *HELL* if you're a good enough Skiff pilot. Your maneuverability is second to none, and you can teleport away when things start looking grim. If you manage to approach the enemy from a good angle, and you have a feel for how much a teleport takes, you can roast him with the laser and zip out before he has a chance to strike back. I like taking out Ur-Quan this way. The Skiff is next to useless against some ships, though, no matter how good you are. I've yet to see anyone consistently fry Chmmr Avatars with it.

Blade: The maneuverability on this is amazing. I used to think the lateral movement was useless, but you can dodge most non-targeting weapons with ease, and you're quick enough to evade the targeting ones --- or stay out of range. You can turn Orz space marines and Ur-Quan fighters to dust with ease. The staggering rate of fire (even on an empty battery) and decent range on the sproutgun makes this one a hit. The Yehat Terminator, an excellent ship in the right hands, is meat against a properly flown Blade.

I also like the Jugger and the Terminator, although the Terminator is nowhere near as deadly as it was in SC1.

Worst: Chenjesu Broodhome and Mmrnmhrm Transformer.

Broodhome: So slow that it borders on complete uselessness. Not only does it have next to no thrust, it also has a so laughably slow turning rate that it can be outmaneuvered even by a lumbering Dreadnought. Get behind it, keep a reasonable range, and it's so much crystalline meat.

Transformer: Either it's ridiculously slow, or it's ridiculously poorly maneuverable. Its weapons are pretty pathetic as well. The lasers are reasonable, but getting close enough to use them while in X-form borders on impossible. Or maybe I just never bothered to get good with this tub.

I also dislike the Umgah Drone and the Mycon Podship, for the same reasons as everyone else. The Drone, at least, is cheap.

I'm a fan of the Chmmr Avatar, Mmrnmhrm Transformer, Thraddash Torch, and Shofixti Scout. I also like the Androsynth Guardian a lot.

Avatar: You say the Chmmr Avatar is too expensive? I say nay. Handled expertly, the Avatar is like unto a demigod, with very very few ships capable of consistently winning against it (blast those Yehat Terminators...) You can kill ships through the tractor beam alone, by dragging them into the planet, and the laser is an incredible weapon. The Zapsats are almost unnecessary.

Transformer: And what's with people saying the Mmrnmhrm Transformer is awkward or difficult to maneuver? If you desperately need to turn, you can switch forms and use that to turn. It takes three seconds or so, tops. The bigger ships can be worn down through the long-range missiles, and if you can aim right with the fast form, you can switch back before teaching your target and unload a full battery of lasers on it. While I wish sometimes that I could cram the two forms together, and get a fast, maneuverable ship with lasers and missiles, that would just create another ubership like the Avatar. In summary, the Transformer is underrated.

Torch: One of few ships that can do decently against the Avatar, with a decent forward-firing weapon. The Afterburners can be relied upon for a quick speed boost, meaning you don't have to rely on gravity whips. It may take patience, but this here ship is a winner.

Scout: Just a quote, by way of explanation: "Our people blew up the sun! Heh heh heh..."

Guardian: The bubbles have lots of uses, from being deployed as barriers while you run to shielding yourself from projectiles. The Blazer form, when used properly, can wreak havoc on Orz Marines and Kzer-Za fighters, and kills most ships in seconds provided you can stick on the hull in a good place. This ship should be a 25. At least.

On the other hand, I DON'T like the Druuge Mauler, Kzer-Za Dreadnought, and Ilwrath Avenger.

Mauler: I'm not very good at precise aim, and every shot you make with this thing counts. You're also slow, and the secondary ability - slaughter a crew member for the furnace - is the only way to get decent energy. So, indirectly, every shot you make is a slow death for your ship. Add that to the fact that using the thruster once flying slows you down, and that hitting the planet at high-speed hurts, and asteroids tend to come out of nowhere, and this is an awkward ship that is incredibly difficult to use well.

Dreadnought: Your primary weapon is good, but deploying fighters is risky, as a simple asteroid can remove six or more in one go, and lots of ships are capable of killing them easily. Given the awkward maneuverability, relying simply on the forward-firing blast can be frustrating, and so, despite this ship's potential and power, I think it should be taken down a couple of points.

Avenger: It sucks. Enough said.

The Androsynth ship needs a point increase more than any other, but 25 is too extreme. I favor 18, maybe 20 points.

One thing I notice in general from the responses here have been that people
tend to favour speed/thrust over crew/battery size. I find that interesting.
I find the slower ships, generally, the hardest to use: Ugma, Ilwrath, VUX.

I find most of these kinds of threads when they come on here to be very interesting reading - they tend to tip the experience level of whoever is posting, as well as whether they've played humans much or not.

Ive made a program for generating random teams for netplay at http://www.cwo.ca/sc2.php

In this program, I had also included a predictor to determine which team should theoretically win.  So i had mapped out each ships strenghts and weaknesses.  The list I have is :

9  Kohr-Ah Marauder
8  Ur-Quan Dreadnought
8  Utwig Jugger
6  Supox Blade
6  Chmmr Avatar
4  Melnorme Trader
4  Mmrnmhrm Transformer
4  Chenjesu Broodhome
3  Ariloulaleelay Skiff
3  Orz Nemesis
3  Spathi Eluder
3  Shofixti Scout
3  Pkunk Fury
1  Earthling Cruiser
1  Androsynth Guardian
-2  Syreen Penetrator
-2  Thraddash Torch
-2  Yehat Terminator
-4  Zoq-Fot-Pik Stinger
-6  VUX Intruder
-6  Slylandro Probe
-7  Druuge Mauler
-7  Ilwrath Avenger
-11  Mycon Podship
-19  Umgah Drone

This list gives 1 point for every ship they are strong against, and -1 for each they are weak against.  This assumes a decently skilled human opponent.

The strenghts table is as follows (these are strenghts in relation to starbuck costs):


/* Androsynth*/ $adv[0] = (4, 5, 10, 11, 19, 21, 22);
/* Arilou    */ $adv[1] = (8, 10, 11, 18, 19, 23);
/* Chenjesu  */ $adv[2] = (6, 13, 16, 17, 18, 19, 21);
/* Chmmr     */ $adv[3] = (1, 2, 5, 14, 15, 17, 22, 23, 24);
/* Druuge    */ $adv[4] = (3, 6, 19);
/* Earthling */ $adv[5] = (4, 7, 12, 15, 22);
/* Ilwrath   */ $adv[6] = (9, 10, 14, 22);
/* Kohr-Ah   */ $adv[7] = (1, 4, 6, 10, 11, 14, 15, 17, 18, 19, 24);
/* Melnorme  */ $adv[8] = (0, 6, 10, 19, 23);
/* Mmrnmhrm  */ $adv[9] = (0, 4, 10, 19, 20, 22);
/* Mycon     */ $adv[10] = (4, 19, 22);
/* Orz       */ $adv[11] = (2, 4, 6, 10, 19, 20, 22, 23);
/* Pkunk     */ $adv[12] = (4, 10, 13, 15, 19);
/* Shofixti  */ $adv[13] = (0, 1, 3, 6, 14, 19, 22, 24);
/* Slylandro */ $adv[14] = (17, 19);
/* Spathi    */ $adv[15] = (4, 10, 11, 13, 19, 22, 24);
/* Supox     */ $adv[16] = (0, 6, 10, 13, 17, 19, 23, 24);
/* Syreen    */ $adv[17] = (0, 6, 10, 19);
/* Thraddash */ $adv[18] = (0, 6, 14);
/* Umgah     */ $adv[19] = ();
/* Ur-Quan   */ $adv[20] = (2, 4, 6, 14, 16, 18, 19, 22, 23, 24);
/* Utwig     */ $adv[21] = (3, 5, 7, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18);
/* VUX       */ $adv[22] = (4, 19, 21, 23);
/* Yehat     */ $adv[23] = (5, 6, 10, 14, 19);
/* Zoq-Fot-P */ $adv[24] = (10, 19);

Feel free to discuss these advantages, or ask me for a game in irc to test em out;

Thought I'd reopen this thread for the fun of it.

Let's say hypothetiically that, for the purposes of netplay, costs of ships could be readjusted to better reflect their actual value in Supermelee.

I thought the following adjustments might be appropriate. what do you think?


                    Old        New     Change
Ur-Quan         30         28         -2
Chmmr          30         30           0
Kohr-Ah         30         32          2
Chenjesu       28         27          -1
Orz               23         23           0
Yehat            23         22          -1
Utwig             22         24          2
Mycon           21         20          -1
Pkunk           20         19          -1
Mmrnhrm       19         19           0
Melnorme      18         19           1
Spathi           18         17          -1
Druuge          17         17           0
Slylandro       17         16          -1
Supox           16         16           0
Arilou            16         15          -1
Androsynth    15         18           3
Syreen          13         13           0
VUX              12         13           1
Earthling        11         13           2
Ilwrath           10           8          -2
Thraddash     10         10           0
Umgah            7          5          -2
Zoq-Fot-Pik     6           7           1
Shofixti           5           6           1
TOTAL       436        436           0


This is not based on any research or experimentation whatsoever!

(you actually got the Yehat, Earthling, VUX cost wrong)

                  Old        New     Change
Ur-Quan         30         26         -4
Chmmr          30         30           0
Kohr-Ah         30         30          0
Chenjesu       28         25          -3
Orz               23         23           0
Yehat            23         21          -2
Utwig             22         22          0
Mycon           21         19          -2
Pkunk           20         19          -1
Mmrnhrm       19         20           +1
Melnorme      18         18           0
Spathi           18         18          0
Druuge          17         17           0
Slylandro       17         17          0
Supox           16         14           -2
Arilou            16         16          0
Androsynth    15         18           +3
Syreen          13         13           0
Earthling        11         11           0
VUX              12         12           0
Ilwrath           10           6          -4
Thraddash     10         666          +656
Umgah            7          7          0
Zoq-Fot-Pik     6           6           0
Shofixti           5           5           0

Oh yeah, woops. I have adjusted my  values accordingly.
whats with the thraddash?

I thought I'd qualify my 'findings' by saying that they are based on what ships seem to be the most popular in net melee amongst some of the better players

Yeah, Elvish, tell us the secret behind the Thraddash!
(Ah, I know, it's nimble and fast and it has a big range. And you can't chase it)

But may I ask how you can beat a Chmmr with the 'Dash? From what I recall, the Mark VI Blaster is destroyed by the ZapSats' Point Defense.
Also, Earthlings are damn good vs Torches.
With Umgah, it's a stalemate. Har! Har! Har!
If the opposing Druuge has a very, very good aim, also, it can kill you - if you are not better.
Not to mention that a VERY, VERY, VERY lucky Arilou may materialize just where he can strike a killing blow.
Perfect Pkunk Pilots May Kill Torches, Perhaps Rather Well, also.

Hate costing. It's totally useless, but it's so annoying when anyone tries to play it, so I made it impossible to fly one given any sane point limit.

How so? The purpose of this list was to come to a situation where in netplay, each ship was as favoured by players as each other. I get bored with fighting androsynths and utwogs all the time - and I'd love to use a Mycon - except their not worth the points.
In any case, you must be a costing guru by now after all the work with your mod

Except with the Thraddash. That's just a personal dislike. I love them, though I prefer Androsynth.
I mean, flying them is not difficult, and it's fun.
Fighting them, on the other hand, can be REALLY unnerving since many tend to think that you really HAVE to fly through their afterburner flames. But you can kill them easily, as I said.

Orz is my favourite ship and I also think it is one of the best.

Let's see how good each ship is against each ship.
I'll start with VUX. -2 means Total Loss. -1 means Loss with Several Casualties Inflicted Upon the Opponent. 0 means equal match.
+1 means Win With Crumpled Crew. +2 means Total Victory Through the Benevolent Will of the Ultron.

VUX:
Ur-Quan -2
Chmmr -1
Kohr-Ah -2
Chenjesu -2
Orz -2
Yehat -0.5
Utwig -1
Mycon -2
Pkunk +1.5
Mmrnmhrm -2
Melnorme -1
Spathi -2
Druuge -1
Slylandro +2
Supox -2
Arilou +2
Androsynth -1
Syreen -2
Earthling +0.5
VUX 0
Ilwrath 0
Thraddash -1
Umgah +1
Zoq-Fot-Pik -2
Shofixti -1

If we add all these, we get -21.5;
We calculate this for all ships and add 5 and the opposite of the smallest value to all values
(so if the lowest value is -27, we add 32 to everything)
and we get the new costs.

For Ilwrath (the lowest value ship.
Also, DON'T PLAY Ilwrath!!! It's boring to play against!!!):
Ilwrath:
Ur-Quan -2
Chmmr -2
Kohr-Ah -2
Chenjesu -2
Orz -2
Yehat -2
Utwig -2
Mycon +0.5
Pkunk 0
Mmrnmhrm 0
Melnorme -2
Spathi -1
Druuge -1
Slylandro +1
Supox -2
Arilou 0
Androsynth +0.5
Syreen -2
Earthling +1
VUX 0
Ilwrath 0
Thraddash 0
Umgah +0.5
Zoq-Fot-Pik -2
Shofixti -2

Sum is -22.5

I have to disagree on some points with VUX.
First: limpets carry through the shield, and one limpet is enough to make Yehat's speed slow enough to suffer total limpeting. If its weapons aren't already fixed on the VUX, it is doomed if the VUX won't make a mistake.
Second: same with Utwig, although it is harder for the VUX to attack when the Utwig is limpeted.
Third: applies to both shield-ships. Even if the VUX does not succeed in killing them, they will be left weakened for the next match if they get limpeted.
And fourth: against Earthling, it's all about the first moments. If the Earthling escapes = doomed VUX. The worst scenario is if the VUX already is on the battlefield. Gravity whips are its only hope to deliver some damage.

Umgah:
Ur-Quan -2
Chmmr -2
Kohr-Ah -2
Chenjesu -2
Orz -2
Yehat -2
Utwig -2
Mycon -2
Pkunk 0
Mmrnmhrm -2
Melnorme -2
Spathi -2
Druuge -2
Slylandro -1
Supox -1
Arilou -0.5
Androsynth -2
Syreen -2
Earthling -1
VUX 0
Ilwrath -0.5
Zoq-Fot-Pik -2
Shofixti 0

So -32.
Argh! The lowest value ship!
Umgah = 2
VUX = 11.5
Ilwrath = DON'T CHOOSE!!!

As to the VUX, modifications made - the Yehat is now -0.5 and the Earthling is +0.5; the Utwig is +1.

I think equally weighting the opponents is a very silly way to determine costs - certain matchups are far more likely than others.

Besides, I don't know where you get those values from. Netplay? Awesome AI? Neither seems to apply.

I do have to agree that the Ilwrath, as it is currently, is the worst ship. Primarily because it's instantly at the disadvantage of being forced to chase nearly every ship in the game because of its design. Now, if the opponent couldn't tell where it was when cloaked, that would be another story.

Because players prefer certain ships? Nope, this shouldn't be taken into account.

Some are evident, some are from hotseat, some (where it's possible) are deduced in this way: I fight the Awesome AI, then we switch sides.
In fact, can you show me exactly where the values are flawed?

In fact, the Umgah turned out to be the lowest value ship.

No... Consider a case where an expensive ship clobbers an inexpensive ship. Really almost no chance of the little ship even doing damage.

Say, Chmmr vs Earthling.

Now, How would this battle occur?

Earthling sent in vs Chmmr? Rare, due to Earthling's suckitude vs Chmmr. Only at the very end would this happen.

Chmmr sent in vs Earthling? Rare, because the player with the Chmmr doesn't want to commit his valuable ship to the arena, where a cheaper counter can be put in against it. Again, only at the very end would this happen.

So that matchup would be comparatively less important.

Ah... I've got your point. But no, there still would be many situations when the cheaper ship will win - some ships are better against certain ships than the others.
In fact, this thing will even be boosted by a cost balancing.
And it's normal that the ship that can counter the most adversaries is given the most points - it's because it's worth several ships.

Ur-Quan:
Ur-Quan 0
Chmmr 0
Kohr-Ah 0
Chenjesu 0
Orz -2
Yehat +1
Utwig -1.5
Mycon +1
Pkunk -0.5
Mmrnmhrm -1
Melnorme +1
Spathi -2
Druuge +1
Slylandro +1.5
Supox -2
Arilou +1
Androsynth +1.5
Syreen +1.5
Earthling -1.5
VUX +0.5
Ilwrath +2
Zoq-Fot-Pik 0
Shofixti -1

Sum is +0.5, cost is 34.5
VUX: 11.5
Umgah: 2
Ur-Quan: 34.5
Ilwrath: 11.5

Thraddash.

Ilwrath are extremely good at gravity whipping, have pretty high crew, good damage once they get close, and some cool features: relativistic shots, cloaking, and instant turning when they uncloak. They have a guaranteed win against Earthlings, and can be effective against (in approximate decreasing order of effectiveness) Arilou, Shofixti, Pkunk, Supox, Syreen, Mmrnmhrm, Orz, and Mycon.

Except for their cost, I'd place Ilwrath as more useful than at least the really low-cost ships (Shofixti, Zoq-fot...)

Well, I think i'm pretty spot on with my new values. If the net effect would be that people are as likely to pick an urquan as a kohr ah or a yehat as an orz then its worked. I'd pick a mycon if it were slightly cheaper. I might think twice about picking a more expenive androsythn, although i wonder of an extra 3 points is enough even?

Interestingly, since there has been a great deal of high-quality net-play since the thread was originally posted, I think some values have been revised. I dont think we consider the Utwig to be the supreme ship some thought it was. Also its is now evident that the kohr-ah pawns all.

Against Arilou and Mmrnmhrm, yes - cost revised.
Against Pkunk and Mycon, it was already mentioned.
Shofixti, Supox, Syreen and Orz may kill it from a distance.
Earthlings may do this also.

Ah - Mmrnmhrm may kill Ilwrath easily in Y-Form.
But let's say that it is too long a battle.

Ah - also, Ilwrath is good against Probes.

Slylandro:

Ur-Quan -1
Chmmr -2
Kohr-Ah -1.5
Chenjesu -1.5
Orz +1
Yehat -0.5
Utwig -1
Mycon +2
Pkunk 0
Mmrnmhrm -2
Melnorme +1.5
Spathi 0
Druuge -1
Slylandro 0
Supox +1.5
Arilou +2
Androsynth +1
Syreen +1
Earthling +1
VUX +0.5
Ilwrath -1
Zoq-Fot-Pik +1
Shofixti 0
Umgah 0
Thraddash +2

Sum is 3, value is 37.

Oops, looks like I skipped Umgah and Thraddash for Ur-Quan and Umgah. Corrected:
Umgah 4
Ilwrath 11.5
Ur-Quan 34.5
VUX 11.5
Slylandro 37
WOW, now there won't be that many Slylandro chasing you in HS after this major cost revamping...  ;)

Earthling:
Ur-Quan +1.5
Chmmr -2
Kohr-Ah -2
Chenjesu -1
Orz -2
Yehat -2
Utwig -2
Mycon -2
Pkunk -1.5
Mmrnmhrm -1
Melnorme -2
Spathi -1
Druuge +0.5
Slylandro -1
Supox -1.5
Arilou +0.5
Androsynth -2
Syreen +0.5
Earthling 0
VUX 0
Ilwrath -1
Zoq-Fot-Pik 0
Shofixti 0
Umgah +2
Thraddash +2

Sum is -17, value is 17.

Umgah 4
Ilwrath 11.5
Ur-Quan 34.5
VUX 11.5
Slylandro 37
Earthling 17

Shofixti:
Ur-Quan -1.5
Chmmr -1
Kohr-Ah -1.5
Chenjesu -1
Orz -2
Yehat -0.5
Utwig -1.5
Mycon +2
Pkunk -1
Mmrnmhrm -0.5
Melnorme -0.5
Spathi -1
Druuge -0.5
Slylandro 0
Supox -0.5
Arilou 0
Androsynth -1
Syreen -0.5
Earthling 0
VUX +2
Ilwrath +2
Zoq-Fot-Pik -1
Shofixti 0
Umgah 0
Thraddash +1

Sum is -8.5, new cost is 25.5; but this high price would make it unlikely for someone to wish to sacrifice it, so we'll half it to 12.

Umgah 4
Ilwrath 11.5
Ur-Quan 34.5
VUX 11.5
Slylandro 37
Earthling 17
Shofixti 12

Nope... I figured out a better method to avoid over/underpricing, such as what happened with the Scout:
Add +1 for each ship that <current> can beat (positive value)
Add -1 for each ship that <current> can't beat (negative value)

Stay tuned for the result of the calculations

Aha! New values follow:
(now I had to add 51 to every value, due to the Umgah having a score of -49)

VUX 16.5
Ilwrath 19.5
Umgah 2
Ur-Quan 53.5
Slylandro 56
Earthling 25
Shofixti 30.5 -> 15

Nope, this doesn't solve the Shofixti problem. It seems that I simply got the values of Shofixti vs various wrong.
I've corrected it by halfing the price)

Anyway, what do you think? Should we use this second algorithm (add +1/-1)?
I thought that there should be a bigger difference between losing and reducing the enemy crew to zero and losing and killing the enemy, so I come with this thing.
In fact, I think I'll keep it.
Just let me correct the Shofixti.

It's a staring contest. To actually kill an Ilwrath with non-homing missles can easily take an hour. The sane strategy for the Mmrnmhrm is to laser at close range, which puts it at somewhat of a disadvantage.

Cedric - the main issues I currently have with your new costings are that Kohr-Ah aren't better than Chmmr, and that Ur-Quan and Chenjesu are still overcosted.

Kohr-Ah:
Ur-Quan 0
Chmmr 0
Kohr-Ah 0
Chenjesu -1.5
Orz +0.5
Yehat -1
Utwig -1
Mycon +1
Pkunk +1.5
Mmrnmhrm +2
Melnorme -1.5
Spathi -1.5
Druuge +2
Slylandro +1.5
Supox -1.5
Arilou +2
Androsynth 0
Syreen +1
Earthling +2
VUX +1.5
Ilwrath +2
Zoq-Fot-Pik +1
Shofixti +1.5
Umgah +2
Thraddash +2

Sum is +25.5, value is 76.5.

VUX 16.5
Ilwrath 19.5
Umgah 2
Ur-Quan 53.5
Slylandro 56
Earthling 25
Shofixti 15
Kohr-Ah 76.5

Thraddash:
Ur-Quan -1
Chmmr -2
Kohr-Ah -2
Chenjesu -2
Orz -1.5
Yehat -2
Utwig -2
Mycon -2
Pkunk -1.5
Mmrnmhrm -1.5
Melnorme -2
Spathi -2
Druuge -1
Slylandro -2
Supox -2
Arilou -2
Androsynth +1.5
Syreen -1.5
Earthling -2
VUX +1
Ilwrath 0
Zoq-Fot-Pik -2
Shofixti -1
Umgah -2
Thraddash 0

Sum is -53.5 - THE LOWEST VALUE SHIP! Elvish was right...
So, from now on, we add +55 to everything instead of +51:


VUX 20.5
Ilwrath 23.5
Umgah 6
Ur-Quan 57.5
Slylandro 60
Earthling 29
Shofixti 17
Kohr-Ah 80.5
Thraddash 1.5

Utwig:
Ur-Quan +1.5
Chmmr -1
Kohr-Ah +1
Chenjesu 0
Orz -1.5
Yehat +0.5
Utwig 0
Mycon +2
Pkunk 0
Mmrnmhrm -2
Melnorme -1.5
Spathi +1.5
Druuge -1.5
Slylandro +1
Supox 0
Arilou +2
Androsynth +1.5
Syreen +2
Earthling +2
VUX +1
Ilwrath +2
Zoq-Fot-Pik +1
Shofixti +1.5
Umgah +2
Thraddash +2

Sum is +6, value is 61.

VUX 20.5
Ilwrath 23.5
Umgah 6
Ur-Quan 57.5
Slylandro 60
Earthling 29
Shofixti 17
Kohr-Ah 80.5
Thraddash 1.5
Utwig 61

The proportionality of the costs is all wrong. Now, I said Thraddash are useless, but I'd rather have 50 Thraddash than one Kohr-Ah. I mean, you should be able to get at least _one_ shot in... ::)

I know... we might have to half the differences between the ship values, or something.
Alas, at least let's finish the tests!

So what do u suggest then?
Kohr-ah 32
Chmmr 32
Ur-quan 27
Chenjesu 26?

At least make a suggestion! Every ship WILL have its market value. A what point to you select a chenjesu ahead of a kohr-ah for your super melee fleet?

Values corrected (Ur-Quan beats Earthling, in fact):

VUX 19.5
Ilwrath 23.5
Umgah 6
Ur-Quan 62
Slylandro 60
Earthling 24.5
Shofixti 17
Kohr-Ah 80
Thraddash 1.5
Utwig 58

Thanks to Cedric6014, who has shown me my error.

Cedric's last set of ship values looks okay. I have no idea what Valaggar is doing.

I'm doing the following:
To find out the value of each ship, try all 25 matchups for that ship and write down:
-3 if the current ship will lose without inflicting any damage
-2.5 lose with minor damage to enemy
-2 lose with half damage to enemy
-1.5 lose with much damage to enemy
0 equal matchup
1.5 win with much damage sustained
2 win with half damage sustained
2.5 win with little damage sustained
3 win with no damage sustained.

Then add all these values.

Now, the cheapest ship (turned out to be the Thraddash) will be a negative value, for example -51; to fix this, add +53 to every value and the cheapest one will be +2.

Arilou:
Ur-Quan -1
Chmmr -2
Kohr-Ah -1.5
Chenjesu -1.5
Orz -1.5
Yehat -1.5
Utwig -2
Mycon +2
Pkunk 0
Mmrnmhrm -2
Melnorme -1
Spathi +1
Druuge +2
Slylandro -2
Supox -1
Arilou 0
Androsynth -1
Syreen -0.5
Earthling -0.5
VUX -1
Ilwrath 0
Zoq-Fot-Pik +1
Shofixti 0
Umgah +0.5
Thraddash +2

Sum is -21.5, value is -21.5 + 55 = 33.5

VUX 19.5
Ilwrath 23.5
Umgah 6
Ur-Quan 65
Slylandro 60
Earthling 23
Shofixti 17
Kohr-Ah 81
Thraddash 2
Utwig 58
Arilou 33.5

That's Awesome AI vs Awesome AI, isn't it? That's a bit pointless. The computer is nothing like an amateur player, who in turn is nothing like a veteran player.

No, it's not Awesome vs Awesome.
It's many things - me vs Awesome, me vs hotseat, me vs me, me vs my brain...
I'd like someone to point my mistakes, though.

Zoq-Fot-Pik:
Ur-Quan -2
Chmmr -2
Kohr-Ah -2
Chenjesu -1.5
Orz -2
Yehat +1
Utwig -1
Mycon -2
Pkunk -1
Mmrnmhrm -1.5
Melnorme -2
Spathi -2
Druuge -0.5
Slylandro -1
Supox -1
Arilou -1
Androsynth -1
Syreen -2
Earthling +0.5
VUX +2
Ilwrath +2
Zoq-Fot-Pik 0
Shofixti +1
Umgah +2
Thraddash +1.5

Sum is -24.5, value is 30.5;

VUX 19.5
Ilwrath 23.5
Umgah 6
Ur-Quan 65
Slylandro 60
Earthling 23
Shofixti 15.5
Kohr-Ah 91
Thraddash 2
Utwig 58
Arilou 36
Zoq-Fot-Pik 30.5

How do you figure? I think the Yehat will simply gun you down when you approach, the Mycon will take aim and hit your large hull, the VUX will blast you down with its laser, the Ilwrath will run you over on a gravity whip, and the Umgah will take advantage of the minutest piece of clumsiness, or the planet, or both, the get you.

In fact, the Zoq can spit further than the Yehat and than VUX.
Fot can avoid the 'Wrath gravity whip.
Umgah can't possibly be so good.
But yes, the Mycon can gun you down. Corrected.

Chmmr:
Ur-Quan 0
Chmmr 0
Kohr-Ah 0
Chenjesu +1
Orz -1.5
Yehat +2
Utwig +1
Mycon +1.5
Pkunk +1
Mmrnmhrm +1.5
Melnorme +1.5
Spathi +2
Druuge -1
Slylandro +2
Supox -0.5
Arilou +2
Androsynth +0.5
Syreen +2
Earthling +2
VUX +1
Ilwrath +2
Zoq-Fot-Pik +2
Shofixti +1
Umgah +2
Thraddash +2

Sum is +43, value is 98.

VUX 19.5
Ilwrath 23.5
Umgah 6
Ur-Quan 65
Slylandro 60
Earthling 23
Shofixti 15.5
Kohr-Ah 94.5
Thraddash 2
Utwig 58
Arilou 36
Zoq-Fot-Pik 30.5
Chmmr 98