The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release => General UQM Discussion => Topic started by: Spektrowski on February 01, 2007, 05:20:10 pm



Title: Orz marines
Post by: Spektrowski on February 01, 2007, 05:20:10 pm
It was probably discussed a dozen times before... but what happens to the Orz marines that get killed on an enemy ship?
I also had another Orz question - how they actually build ships and exoskeletons if they are "not *many bubbles*" (incorporeal, as I understand it), but then I remembered that the Arilou control their ships with telekinesis, so it's probably the same with the Orz?


Title: Re: Orz marines
Post by: Valaggar on February 01, 2007, 05:49:55 pm
The extradimensional Orz entity, the creature behind the *fingers*, is incorporeal. The *fingers* live in our dimension, so they are forced to obey the rules of this dimension, such as to be composed of atoms.


Title: Re: Orz marines
Post by: Spektrowski on February 01, 2007, 06:10:21 pm
So, if to follow this theory, other races might be able to gather and study the actual Orz corpses if they kill marines and survive against their mothership?


Title: Re: Orz marines
Post by: Valaggar on February 01, 2007, 06:21:04 pm
Why not? The *fingers* are not so strange, maybe. Or perhaps, MORE LIKELY, they disintegrate when they die because the connection with Orz is severed.
And, do not forget, when talking with the Orz we see a *finger* keeping himself busy at a console that looks like a starmap.


Title: Re: Orz marines
Post by: Shiver on February 01, 2007, 09:19:47 pm
Before they appeared in true space, the Orz hivemind prepared suits and ships for its little fish men. That's the best hypothesis I can come up with.


Title: Re: Orz marines
Post by: Novus on February 02, 2007, 10:32:58 am
One other interpretation is that the Orz are more or less normal TrueSpace beings, but are in constant communication with each other and the Orz entity from *below* and lack a will of their own (i.e. the Orz entity is using a Borg-like collective as prosthetic *fingers* (and "eyes" and "ears") to act in TrueSpace). This raises the possibility that the Orz we see are TrueSpace lifeforms that have been twisted into acting as *fingers* for the Orz, and the Androsynth did disappear in a manner consistent with this theory (pulled apart by something from another *space*).

One problem with this is that the Orz we speak to refer to themselves as *fingers* *pushed* into our *space*:
Quote from: Orz
Here is *good news*! Six or nine *pieces* ago, myself the Orz did not even *smell* your *level*. Can you believe? It is so silly! It is such a *happy town*. Then the Androsynth made some *slippery places* and then Orz can *smell* it. It *smells* so good Orz are surprised! I, myself pushed the *fingers* into the *new town* and there are so many *campers*.

This can be resolved by interpreting *fingers* to mean something that functions as a conduit for the will of the Orz, not the physical bodies (*many bubbles*, meaning either cell-based life or multiple organisms; the latter makes slightly more sense in the following) themselves. This is supported by:
Quote from: Orz
That is *funny*. You think you *see* Orz but Orz are not *light reflections*. Maybe you think Orz are *many bubbles* too. It is such a joke. Orz are not *many bubbles* like *campers*. Orz are just Orz. I am Orz. I am one with many *fingers*. My *fingers* reach through into *heavy space* and you *see* *Orz bubbles* but it is really *fingers*.

My interpretation is something like: "That is funny. You think you perceive Orz, but Orz are not something you can see, hear or scan. Maybe you think Orz are separate organisms too. It is such a joke. Orz are not individuals like TrueSpace beings. Orz are just Orz. I am Orz. I can project my will into many places. I reach through into TrueSpace and you see Orz organisms, but they are really the meat puppets I use to interact with TrueSpace."


Title: Re: Orz marines
Post by: Shiver on February 02, 2007, 10:12:26 pm
Alas, my "best hypothesis" is spew. Running with Novus's thing, it's more likely that the Orz hivemind re-arranged the atoms of all Androsynth citizens and soldiers into Orz. But then, why is the Androsynth homeworld war ravaged when you visit it? And why would the Orz relocate to another planet to set up a base of operations?


Title: Re: Orz marines
Post by: Valaggar on February 03, 2007, 09:12:52 am
Quote from: Shiver
And why would the Orz relocate to another planet to set up a base of operations?

That's easy. They went to the Playground because it was a *slippery* place and the home of the Taalo.

Quote from: Shiver
Running with Novus's thing, it's more likely that the Orz hivemind re-arranged the atoms of all Androsynth citizens and soldiers into Orz. But then, why is the Androsynth homeworld war ravaged when you visit it?

Hmm... yes, I don't think the Orz are Androsynth (I read Novus's post a bit attentionless, sorry). Still, if Orz snagged the Androsynth into his dimension, why is all that damage? Perhaps he wasn't very accurate, and snagged parts of buildings too out of mistake.


Title: Re: Orz marines
Post by: Novus on February 03, 2007, 10:24:57 am
Still, if Orz snagged the Androsynth into his dimension, why is all that damage? Perhaps he wasn't very accurate, and snagged parts of buildings too out of mistake.
Everything looks like it was shot at from the ground, according to Xeno-historian Kilgore's report from the planet. Science officer Bukowski, shortly after figuring out what's going on, not only goes insane and tries to tear everything down; he also seems to be getting cut by something that can't be seen.

My interpretation is that proximity to the Androsynth's experimental portal (presumably to *below*) allows Orz *fingers* to reach into someone. Bukowski's mysteriously appearing injuries and insanity may be a side effect of *fingers* trying to gain control of him (which would probably involve some serious changes) (a simple Orz vs Androsynth land war with conventional weapons does not explain this). Now, what happens if a bunch of Androsynth soldiers with nuclear bazookas are subjected to the same thing? A lot of nuked buildings, that's what!

Considering that no one reports any further problems with Bukowski, he apparently recovers upon leaving the Androsynth homeworld. This suggests that any Androsynth far enough from their homeworld (or capable of escaping quickly enough) would have survived. The Orz may also have captured some for further study. However, the theory that the Orz we see are horribly twisted Androsynth seems to be holding up pretty well.


Title: Re: Orz marines
Post by: Draxas on February 05, 2007, 05:34:29 pm
Quote from: Shiver
And why would the Orz relocate to another planet to set up a base of operations?

That's easy. They went to the Playground because it was a *slippery* place and the home of the Taalo.

You do know that the Orz have an actual homeworld elsewhere in their SOI, right? The Taalo's world is only defended by a relatively small fleet, so that you can still retrieve the artifact even if you make enemies out of the Orz. Now, the question remains why the Orz decided to set up shop on this one random planet instead of, say, their favorite *playground* or the conquered homeworld of the *silly cows* with its existing infrastructure. Then again, it's possible that these worlds are unsuitable for some reason; as I recall, someone mentions that the Orz breathe methane gas (or some other non-Earthlike atmospheric gas, anyway) inside their suits, so I suppose worlds without a natural atmosphere of that type would probably be pretty impractical for them to colonize with their physical forms.

As for everything else, though, I think Novus has it spot-on.


Title: Re: Orz marines
Post by: AngusThermopyle on February 06, 2007, 05:15:24 pm
So here's a hypothetical situation:

Say a Syreen hypnotizes an Orz crewman. Even though the Orz are mere projections, as stated above, wouldn't the fact that one hypnotized crewman means the entire 'Orz collective' is similarly hypnotized?

Also, while we are on the topic of the Orz, I'm assuming that any Nemesis ships you build at the Starbase are crewed by humans and/or Shofixti, right? That would imply that any raiders you launch are in fact humans/Shofixti in modified Orz combat suits. Too bad they couldn’t retrofit a few Cruisers to launch similar raiders...


Title: Re: Orz marines
Post by: Draxas on February 06, 2007, 06:17:35 pm
I like to believe that the inside of the Nemesis is simply too hostile an environment for any race besides Orz to operate effectively in, meaning that they're crewed solely by Orz. I mean, with extensive training, you could probably get humans and/or Shofixti to reach a level of ability with isolation suits in a liquid environment where they would be effective... But who has that kind of time, and those kind of resources? It's simpler to just crew the vessel with natives, especially since Hayes implies that there are quite a lot of Orz stomping around the base after you ally with them.

As for the Syreen, I figure their special causes one or more *fingers* to lose their connection to whatever sort of collective intelligence governs the Orz, causing those so hypnotized to come under the control of the Syreen captain the same as any other race. Besides, they already have the isolation suits, so survival inside the vessel isn't a problem.


Title: Re: Orz marines
Post by: Death 999 on February 06, 2007, 06:28:45 pm
You can however crew up the Orz with crew pulled from the Vindicator, which suggests a strong degree of adaptibility.


Title: Re: Orz marines
Post by: Draxas on February 06, 2007, 07:42:59 pm
I'll chalk that one up to game balance, or not wanting to make special exceptions in crew transfers. Maybe there are some Orz serving aboard or something. ::)


Title: Re: Orz marines
Post by: countchocula86 on February 06, 2007, 07:54:31 pm
Bah, 'game balance' is the lazy mans way out! :P It's all about the crazy, ridiculously intricate explanations that are the best.


Title: Re: Orz marines
Post by: Valaggar on February 07, 2007, 09:25:50 am
Quote from: Death 999
You can however crew up the Orz with crew pulled from the Vindicator, which suggests a strong degree of adaptibility.

Perhaps Zelnick has special scuba-diving suits aboard.

About crew transfer... you can have entire ships or crews of Orz, Druuge etc. even while you're an enemy of them! And you speak about the problem the Nemesis would pose because of acclimatization...


Title: Re: Orz marines
Post by: Valaggar on February 07, 2007, 09:49:41 am
Perhaps you enslave enemies in your battlegroup...

And the Orz have their ethanol suits, you have oxygen suits too perhaps... No problem in this area.

And the Syreen... Orz hypnotised crew dies if let in space for a time... and marines do not. But Orz need suits to survive inside the Penetrator. Then either the disruption of the link with the 'Orz collective' destroys them OR the Orz launch into space without suits and the Syreen prepare ethanol tanks aboard...
Quote from: Syreen
Come here, Orz! We have ethanol hot tubs here!  :-*


Title: Re: Orz marines
Post by: AngusThermopyle on February 07, 2007, 03:31:01 pm
You know, the more I think about it, I think you're probably right, Draxis.

Consider this: You ally with the Orz and build a couple of Nemesis ships at your Starbase. Now go talk to the Orz about the Androsynth and all of your Nemesis ships will join the Orz battle group after you tick them off. Now I simply can't imagine a human/Shofixti crew suiting up for battle to board and destroy the Vindicator. Heh, the Shofixti (and probably humans too) would sooner destroy their own Nemesis first, I think.


Title: Re: Orz marines
Post by: Valaggar on February 07, 2007, 03:45:01 pm
Quote from: AngusThermopyle
Consider this: You ally with the Orz and build a couple of Nemesis ships at your Starbase. Now go talk to the Orz about the Androsynth and all of your Nemesis ships will join the Orz battle group after you tick them off.
They DON'T join the enemy battlegroup, that's what I was talking about! They fight for you against their own brethren!

Quote from: AngusThermopyle
I simply can't imagine a human/Shofixti crew suiting up for battle to board

Hmm... In fact, if you crew up a Nemesis with non-Orz crew, HOW CAN THEY USE SUITS?! The suits are full of ethanol. And if you dry them, still you CANNOT fly a piece of alien technology (remember the restriction?)! - Yes, the Dreadnought fighters can be piloted by non-Ur-Quan, but that's because they are specifically designed for being used by non-Ur-Quan


Title: Re: Orz marines
Post by: AngusThermopyle on February 07, 2007, 04:35:31 pm
They DON'T join the enemy battlegroup, that's what I was talking about! They fight for you against their own brethren!
Looks like we're both sorta right on this one. I tested this, and they do leave your fleet, but they do not join the enemy battlegroup as I had thought. (I know this because I only fought 1 Nemesis after I ticked them off, and yet I had two Nemesis in my fleet. So I should I have fought 3 if they did defect.)

So that leaves open the marine question and where do those Starbase-built Nemesis go after you annoy them too much with Androsynth questions?


Title: Re: Orz marines
Post by: Valaggar on February 07, 2007, 06:14:34 pm
Hmm... albeit it seems strange to me, perhaps non-Orz CAN fly marine suits, and then the non-Orz in your Nemesis ships fight the Orz and the ships blow up (imagine these fishy Nemesis ships shaking in a cloud with "AARGH!" and BOOM!" and "POOF!" words thrown from inside,  8) a-la-cartoons...)

Or non-Orz don't fly suits, and then when there are no available Orz aboard, the suits launch by themselves (brr, haunted suits!) and become *fingers*.  :-\
And Nemesis ships in your fleet leave to attend to more important matters (?!). Apropos - This doesn't happen to the Druuge, right? (the only other race that you get to have their ships in your fleet when they turn against you) That's because they sold you these ships, and then their captains are your slaves...This interpretation would let open the question: "Why do Orz crewmen in your ships not turn against you?!" (in the first case, the Orz Captain is then the only Orz aboard. That's why in the Melee picture there is only one Orz). So I incline towards the first interpretation.

Or a combination of both: the Nemesis ships are not fully crewed by Orz *fingers* so part of the suits must fight unpiloted. And the Orz+non-Orz fight on the ships and destroy them.

(I am of course assuming that the crew is actually an abstract representation of crew+hull resistance, an interpretation that is most likely)


Title: Re: Orz marines
Post by: Spektrowski on February 07, 2007, 08:05:25 pm
The third race that may turn against you while having their ships in your battlegroup is Thraddash - if you befriend them, build some Torches at the Starbase and then steal the Aqua Helix.
Still, it's interesting whether one can get an Orz corpse for study :D


Title: Re: Orz marines
Post by: Spektrowski on February 07, 2007, 09:38:15 pm
Three other possible same-race matchups are:
Spathi vs. Spathi - if you have Fwiffo and decide to attack Spathi at the first encounter.
Yehat vs. Yehat - after the Revolution starts.
Umgah vs. Umgah - after you free them from Talking Pet and get to their homeworld, they give you 4 Drones and attack you.


Title: Re: Orz marines
Post by: Shiver on February 07, 2007, 09:58:56 pm
You can build Torches? Really? Oh, I totally forgot...
And they stay with you after they stole their wonderful Aqua Helix?! Eh, these fools... Small IQ.

No they don't. If you steal the Helix but never speak to the Thraddash again you can keep your Torches. As soon as one of their patrols tracks you down, your Torches will abandon you just like with the Orz. If you ask me, the player is not really meant to use Thraddash Torches in the main game and taking advantage of this loophole is abuse.


Title: Re: Orz marines
Post by: Captain_Smith on February 07, 2007, 10:02:53 pm
Or you could say the captain kept the Thraddash captains out of the loop, or they were just too stupid to know where it came from until their Thraddash bretheren tell them.

Captain: "Look what we found on a planet, nice twisty glowing thing."
Thraddash: "Yeah! Snort!  We got one of those things too.  Cool thing, right?"
Captain: "Uh, yeah, right.  Very cool!"

And so on.  ;D


Title: Re: Orz marines
Post by: countchocula86 on February 08, 2007, 03:07:01 am
Perhaps, part of the Nemsis' design blue-prints that are given to you includes information on how to build marine suits. Of course, then this brings in some more questions like why you can't keep building the ships if you have the blue-print (regardless of whether the Orz are your buddies or not). I guess maybe they give you some special materials, and when you're no longer allying they stop supplying.


Title: Re: Orz marines
Post by: Spektrowski on February 08, 2007, 09:42:45 am
It's simpler. A race's ship can be captained only by member of that race. So if you have no Orz (or, say Spathi) to captain the ships, they are useless.