The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

This is to discuss "X *will* kill Y", or similar matchups.  Mainly try and think of combos that's basically throwing a ship away. 

VUX vs Earthling:  This is completely dependant on the start of the match.  IF the player with the VUX gets an Ambush on the Earthling while it's not moving, or moving very slowly, h has a very good chance of killing it then and there.  That's a luck-based strategy though, only works maybe 7 of 10 times.  Once the Earthling pulls away, it's all over but the dying.

Chenjesu vs Utwig: Bark-Bark, there goes your batteries.

Spathi vs Avatar:  Primary and secondary weapons cannot get pat the defense ring.  Arilou has the same problem, probably a small list of ships can be written in just for it.  Once it's ring is gone though, it's a whole different critter. An Arilou should be able to crack it pretty easy then.

Mycon vs Arilou:  Yeah, it's all about being able to kill the Mycon at will with it's own ammunition.  Arilou only has 6 crew though, so it only takes the wrong inattentive second to end this pretty fast the other way.  A Mycon gravity whip helps some, but eventually you're going to tattoo a planet with your ass.

Who else can think of lopsided matchups?

Actually, all the match ups you mention aren't really one sided. Given various positions and skill sets, those can be fair battles. The only one I wouldn't want to be in is the Spathi vs. Chmmr match-up, if they both start at full health.

I'd say most ships vs. the Scout are pretty one sided and not many ships will lose to a Drone in a fair fight.

There are a bunch. But I'll mention one of the biggest lopsided matches between two good ships that hasn't been mentioned yet:

Androsynth vs Orz: The Orz has no chance. Marines are useless and you will be blazed in short order. Those huge fins on the Nemesis are just too hard for a decent Androsynth player to miss. At best, the Orz can hope to get in a few hits with its cannon before being smashed to bits.

Its so incredibly easy to not get hit by a dogi.  This is not as one sided as you may think

Matches which are one sided, near free kills where the winner is usually unhit are:
Androsynth > Mycon
Androsynth > VUX
Arilou > Melnorme
Arilou > Mycon
Arilou > Orz
Chmrr > Arilou
Chmrr > Earthling
Chmrr > Slylandro
Chmrr > VUX
Chmrr > Spathi
Drudge > Ilwrath
Earthling > Spathi
Kohr-Ah > Ilwrath
Kohr-Ah > Mycon
Kohr-Ah > Umgah
Melnorme > Ilwrath
Melnorme > Umgah
Melnorme > Yehat
Mhrnmhrm > Mycon
Mhrnmhrm > VUX
Orz > Ilwrath
Pkunk > Mycon
Pkunk > Spathi
Slylandro > Mycon
Slylandro > Syreen
Slyandro > Umgah
Spathi > Mycon
Spathi > Umgah
Spathi > VUX
Supox > Ilrath
Supox > Mycon
Supox > Zoq-Fot-Pik
Syreen > Ilwrath
Thraddash > Ilwrath
Thraddash > VUX
Ur-Quan > Ilwrath
Ur-Quan > Umgah
Ur-Quan > Zoq-Fot-Pik
Utwig > Chmrr
Utwig > Earthling
Utwig > Mycon
VUX > Yehat
Zoq-Fot-Pik > Mycon


Thats my opinion of Dominating matchups. 
Mycon is dominated by 10 opponents.
Ilwrath is dominated by 8 opponents.
VUX is dominated by 5 opponents.

Wowsers, how long did that take you. What about VUX > Utwig and Earthling > Orz

Is that about player vs. player, or player vs. AI?
From my experience against AI, Thraddash > Chmmr, Thraddash > Androsynth (afterburner quickly kills the Blazer) and Thraddash > Yehat.

It's all about about PvP i'm afraid. is bad and strange.

Druuge against Yehat or Utwig. You got no chance lol, every shot will just be shielded before they close in.

Androsynth>Chmmr

A good Androsynth player should be able to use blazer mode to keep out of the Avatar's range and bubble the ship to death.

Spathi>Kohr-Ah
The BUTT missile's range should allow the Spathi pilot to stay far enough away to easily dodge the Kohr-Ah's discs while chipping away at the crew.

Chenjesu>Druuge
Chenjesu can DOGI the Druuge ship, literally, to death.

Everyone>Illwrath
The Illwrath ship is almost guaranteed a defeat due to their lack of speed and range.  The cloaking device is not very useful at all.

Everyone>Umgah
Same as Illwrath.  The backwards teleport ability is not useful outside of an expert's hands.

I should say there are very few absolutely impossible match-ups.  Of course with PVP you have to consider the skill of each of the players involved.

VUX vs. Earthling - if the VUX gets a gravwhip it becomes entirely probable.  The question is how many hits is the earthling going to get before that happens.  Those missiles aren't entirely accurate (abysmal in fact) and the Earthling can't PDL limpets all day.

Chenjesu vs. Utwig - The Utwig has a great turning speed and can just look off the DOGIs unless one is released very closely.  Presumably the Utwig would be chasing while the Chenjesu would try to fire, but it's quite easy to avoid DOGIs as an Utwig.

Spathi vs. Avatar - I take it you didn't see the demo video I did of taking out a fully crewed Avatar with a Spathi.  Granted it was the awesome AI, but it's still *possible*.  In PVP the Avatar pilot would die of boredom before it would happen though.

Agreed on the Mycon vs. Arilou.  If the Arilou pilot is even half good the Mycon's dead.

I won't comment too much on any of the other matchups since there's a boatload of comments that could be made and I could be typing here all day.

Even without batteries/shields, the Utwig is still an adversary.

Unless you're talking about Player vs Computer, that is not true. An Androsynth bubble bath will only force a stalemate until the Androsynth pilot decides to grow up. Then again, you also said that Spathi trump Kohr-Ah, but that goes out the window against any halfway talented player.


This is true. One of the biggest upsets I've pulled in PVP was beating someone's Chenjesu with an Utwig in the first round of combat. I'd still say the Chenjesu has the advantage in that fight but it isn't completely one-sided.

No, the Androsynth can easily best the Chmmr.  The Guardian pilot must exploit the Avatar's limited firing range and overwhelm it with bubbles while saving some energy to speed away.  The Guardian's pilot should start to speed away when it is just outside the Avatar's firing range.  If the Avatar opts to continue to pursue, the Guardian pilot should speed away just outside the Avatar's firing range again, except this time the Guardian will have a little more energy for the getaway.  If the Avatar drops the pursuit, the Guardian can simply maneuver around to fully restock its energy.

Or if you don't mind taking a bit of a loss and have good enough maneuvering skills, or if the Avatar foolishly remains idle: Get close, blazer form, get to the side and plow where the wing joins the ship.  The Guardian will take a few shots from the zapsats, but the Avatar will be dead in no time.

The best ships to deal with the Avatars are those who can outrun it even while the tractor beam is on and can fire on it either overwhelming or destroying the zapsats in the process.  The Supox, the Androsynth, and the Orz all can do this.

That said...

Supox>Chmmr
Orz>Chmmr

As for Spathi vs. Kohr-Ah.  The Eluder pilot must stay on the outer limits of the BUTT missile's range and chip away at the Marauder's crew.  The Marauder is too slow and not remotely maneuverable enough to avoid the Spathi's shots.  Plus the Eluder is more than fast enough and maneuverable enough to avoid the Marauder discs while keeping just inside the BUTT's range.

Though if a Kohr-Ah pilot gets defensive, there's a stalemate - a BUTT can't get through FRIED.

I'm sorry but a spathi cant elude a kohr-ah's shirakins forever, even good pilots will lose out over time. noone will ever beat my kohr-ah with a spathi - of course this would require me to camp and i tend to lose patince and attack to my own detriment anyway.

I'm fun to play with

The Chmmr can take major damage, at least if it's not careful.

A skilled or lucky Umgah that reverses right next to the Melnorme can do serious damage. Melnorme can't really stop that strategy.

This battle is pretty even. The Supox doesn't even have an advantage.

The Syreen is big and doesn't have particularly good acceleration. Ilwrath are very good at gravity whipping.

Yeah, if you have infinite patience.

Chmmr can slam Utwig into the planet, or fake Utwig out, or hit it with the tip of its laser when it's not ready. None of these are easy, but Utwig is definitely at high risk in this matchup.

From what I hear, it's pretty easy for Druuge to fake Utwig out.

You've been playing the AI. Chmmr can avoid bubbles easily, Druuge can avoid DOGIs easily and don't sacrifice crew constantly if they're human, Ilwrath can gravity-whip, have high acceleration, and tend to beat Earthlings even without that, and Umgah's backwards movement is easier to use than you give it credit for.

There's literally nothing that has a guaranteed win against a human-controlled Chmmr Avatar (or at least, against an Elvish Pillager-controlled Chmmr Avatar.)

Hey, I bet you're the Elvish Pillager from Wesnoth, right? I'm Drachefly there (and nearly everywhere but here). Haven't posted or played in a long time... you might not remember me.

Flown by a decent player, the Utwig can take almost any ship, particularily the Chmmr.
I remember there was one ship that could take the Utwig easily, where all the others were mostly useless, but I can't remember which it is right now.

You CAN beat the Ur Quan with a Measly Zoq Fot Pik ship, it's actually not too hard. You wait for the Ur-Quan to shoot out fighters, and then you blast them to bits with the spray cannon (one of it's only advantages), once the Fighters stop churning out, the Z.F.P  is easily more agile and faster than the Ur Quan's piece of metal. Go up to the side of it and Tongue the thing to death.

Infact, despite the Z.F.P needing some balancing, it's not THAT hampered, you need to fly it right, tis all...

LOLOLOL

This topic gets worse every time someone posts in it. Maybe there needs to be an UQM-Arena topic that doesn't allow posts from people that never visit there, because so far none of these people have shown that they have any idea what they're talking about. EDIT: Death999 hasn't visited UQM-Arena and generally posts good advice.

Let's go over this. Utwig is a decent choice against Chmmr. It is NOT capable of downing every ship in the game in serious PVP. Orz and Druuge will beat it most of the time and VUX will take it down almost always. Yeah, VUX. You kids who keep posting with your experiences against the AI probably aren't familiar with how VUX are a virtually guaranteed win versus Yehat and Utwig. I suspect Supox can beat Utwig with their longer range, but don't quote me on that because I don't use Supox for anything unless I have to. And Zoq > Ur-Quan? Silliest thing I've ever heard.



It had to be said. You guys with minimal experience are running rampant with bad information in every PVP topic that shows up here.

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Well, i've never been on UQM Arena because I can't get online with it, against an Awesome AI Ur Quan, they have no chance, I've also battled a mate of mine at home, and out gunned him with 2 or so tongues.

Your not very nice, are YOU? :P.

[EDIT]

Yeah, screw you too. Maybe if someone else tried this, maybe then you could criticise, I'm speaking from experience here, I'm not a "PvP" Newb and if you took offense to the "Your not very nice" statement, then please, I wasn't trying to offend you in any shape or way, it's just something to lighten up a conversation.

*sips tea*

I'll say it again. If you haven't been playing in UQM-Arena then your advice is bound to be terrible. Why everyone seems to think they're the exception to this, I have no idea. For some perspective, I originally thought I could take down a Kohr-Ah with a Spathi too during my first couple of online matches and was quite pissed after failing to do this 90% of the time. Most of what I know now about melee is based upon my own terrible estimations being proven wrong by trial and error against very skilled players.

Everyones entitled to their own opinion. Nothing in these forums is gospel. If someone feels they can take down an Ur-Quan with a ZFP then just laugh quietly to yourself, comforted by the knowledge that you know you can win. You don't need to act all high and might like your word is law.

Not saying your wrong, but the way you came back in that hostile manner was a bad way of going about things. These forums are about finding people who you have something in common with (in this case Star Control) and talking to them in a civil maner about it. Shooting down people just because you don't share their opinion, and trying to back it up with insults, does not make you any better for it.

They're my experiences, same as everyone elses is theirs, not everyone started the Revolution, and not everyone likes the Pkunk, it's just the way things are. Same as that not everyone has had the same win/loss count against certain ships.

If we're talking about AI, then there's not just one ship that can beat almost anything:
Utwig
Chmmr
Androsynth
Thraddash
Mycon

and plenty of matchups that are trivial on BOTH sides:
Androsynth vs. Chmmr
Orz vs. Chmmr
Druuge vs. Chmmr
Thraddash vs. Chmmr
Androsynth vs. Thraddash
Androsynth vs. Slylandro
Ur-Quan vs. Zoq-fot
Spathi vs. Kohr-Ah
Mycon vs. Mmrnmhrm
Supox vs. Ilwrath
Supox vs. Umgah
Thraddash vs. Utwig

... the list goes on and on. I could easily name twice as many.

Let's use this thread not to discuss human vs. AI, and not to discuss percieved hostility...

P.S. yes Drachefly, I'm from wesnoth... there's only one Elvish Pillager! ;)

....

You're an idiot.  ::)

The Androsynth Guardian, unless it's in the hands of an complete moron, will never enter the Avatar's firing range.  The difference between PvC and PvP tactics is the level of patience the Androsynth pilot must demonstrate.

::)

You're not worth talking to.

Yeah, I was wrong. You can't even beat the AI with them. This shows how much I fly the Melnorme...

[tests again]

Ah. Well. It depends on the Melnorme's aim. Testing with the AI (Sorry!) I found that the AI Melnorme beats my Utwig, due to its superior aim, but the AI Utwig beats my Melnorme, due to my inferior aim and ship control.

VUX and Orz are the best bets against the Utwig. And the Druuge, if we're not considering a superhuman with superreflexes.
But... about the Druuge... it shot takes the enemy by surprise mostly by its dark red color. You can mod its color without losing sync if you don't overlap the transparent pixels, so this would take some of the Druuge's effectiveness. I believe. My opinion.

Everything in a Melnorme fight depends on the Melnorme's aim. Trouble is, it's really tricky to aim with.

Melnorme and Utwig have the same max speed but the Melnorme accelerate faster. Melnorme should be able to keep out of Utwig range most of the time and thus get several more attempts at hitting. But of course, I haven't tested that theory.

Using that strategy, my Melnorme easily beat AI Utwig, but of course, AI is hardly a judge of anything.

Well I got to disagree with you here shiv, Its actually a very close fight between the yehat and the VUX, as the yehat is equal in speet to limpets and has quick accelleration.  As long as you fly perpendicular to his grav whip, you can close the distance, shoot off a volley then disengage.   The only problem with the strat is that there is no room for error, one limpet and you're fucked.

Be carefull, just dont rip him in at full speed

Just keep the ball charged and if he reverses, you accelerate forwards.  Either he wont get you of he will crash into your charged energy.

This I cant say for certain, but Im fairly sure its not hard to keep the zoq at max range and just rip him apart.

I would say it has rather good accelleration, I would still be hard pressed to say illwrath has a chance here....

The vux has what, 12 crew?  The vux cant grav whip or else you can just flame up an intercept course, and once he isnt grav whipping, its just textbook.

Utwig is NOT at high risk.   Any half competent utwig can EASILY avoid being pulled into the planet, the utwig has too much mass to be pulled quickly and its simply a matter of accellerating to either side of the planet.   If the utwig is patient and doesnt try to end it super fast, its very easy, because you know that you can easily fill up your shields.  Just shoot at max range and shield once you get a bit closer, you can afford to put up the shields a second early as it will be filled up for every clash.

20

Still, the VUX isn't exactly capable of evading well.

And... Aya Reiko, EP is not an idiot. Perhaps you should reexamine the reasoning that led you to that conclusion?

Your right, I guess it just appears smaller next to that huge energy bar.  Nonetheless, Im fairly confident that I can take out a vux with a thraddash in a reasonable amount of time (<10 minutes)

It's not as if you've suggested an alternative. No matter what the Chmmr does, the VUX can get in *some* damage, and it takes some skill to keep it from doing a lot.

I wouldn't pick VUX against Chmmr, nor would I pick Chmmr against VUX.

Won't get you _much_, you mean. And if you keep the ball charged always, how do you plan to kill it? Run up and ram it? You'll take damage that way too...

Supox max range is barely longer than Zoq-fot max range, if at all. It's all in the relative skill of the players.

I've won a couple of this fight against human (though relatively weak) players, but Ilwrath is so weak in general that I don't use it enough to know.

I guess nobody I know of is half competent at playing Utwig. ::)

If you want to test this theory you can always come to #uqm-arena, I'd be happy to play you - (assuming you can host)

Well, the Chmrr has a respectable range advantage over the Chmrr, I would doubt that the VUX can take off more than 8 crew of a skilled chmrr, if the chmrr is advancing slowly

Wont at all.  I plan to kill it either by letting him ram into my ball, or by shooting him when I am just out of range of his antimatter, where any player wont miss.


Id have to run the supox vs zoq match, I cant really say anymore until i do testing, you may be right about equal range.

Would love to, I can host.  By the way, these are all just my opionions, as I do not claim to know the best, as I know a few battles that I can generally win (mycon > chenjesu, chmrr > drudge) that others think are locks, and Im sure that others have some interesting matches to best my "locks".

The range of the Chmmr laser is exactly the same as the range of the VUX laser.

If this is all you'll do, a skilled enough Umgah could keep reversing right next to you and clipping you for a few points until you are inevitably defeated. And I don't believe that would really take a lot of skill...

After looking at the source, I can confirm you are correct.  Sorry about the mis-information.

Alright so Elvish Pillager and I got a chance to run a few of the aforementioned matchups, and here's how it worked out:

Utwig (SquisherX) vs Chmrr (Elvish)

This matchup I had claimed as a lock for Utwig, as I handily beat all opponent Chmrrs losing minimal life.  However, elvish took a different approach than most and quickly took off towards the planet, obtaining an orbit.  Once there, he continually tried to pull me into the planet.   My counter priority was as follows 1) Shield from chmrr 2) Avoid planet 3) Shoot chmrr  , In that order.   The problems that I faced were, due to the Utwigs slow accelleration, that I would not always be able to get any shots on the chmrr, because i would have to be accelerating in the other direction in order to avoid the planet.   This phase of testing ended with 3.5 Chmrrs (105 Supply) taking down 4 Utwigs  (88 Supply).   Approximatly two thirds damage to the Utwig was received from the laser, with the remaining third from the planet.

Additional Notes:  One of the matches I spawned right beside the Chmrr and lost half my life, however, these random occurrences are part of the game, and as such should be considered in testing.   At one time I had attempted a slower tactic, which involved flying across the map from the Chmrr, in order to continually swap the map centering such that the Chmrr would crash into the planet when attempting to obtain an orbit.  It had limited success for the time and work involved, but the risk was almost non-existant.  It could be argued that doing that after each clash which forces the Chmrr out of orbit would be optimal, however it is too slow/defensive of a strategy for me to consider it viable.

After the first round of testing, Elvish suggested an alternate strategy for the Utwig pilot.  He suggested trying to attain an orbit with the Chmrr.  Surprising to me, this worked out with great sucess, taking down the Chmrr while losing only half HP.  It was quick and entertaining, and in my opinion one of the best ways to defeat the orbiting Chmrr. 

Summary:
Overall, the ships ended up being on parity, with a 30:22 supply advantage for the Utwig.

Supok (Squisherx) vs Zoq-fot-Pik (Elvish)

Before testing took place, we checked ranges and Supok was determined to have a ~15% range advantage.  This is amplified however due to the tactic that the supok is always reversing once engaging.

I was able to keep the zoq at max range for the most part, taking down two zoqs with a single Supok (losing 1/2 life i think).  If I had been more careful I probably would have lost less, as most of that damage was from the first engagement from the first zoq.   Afterwards, we had decided to switch roles.  Elvish isnt a skilled supok pilot however, and I was able to fake him into range and took out two supoks with my zoq hitting the tongue both times to take out the supok in a single hit. 

Summary:
If the supok is skilled enough to keep out of the zoqs range, it is a fairly easy matchup.  If not, the zot has a definate supply advantage.

Well, actually...

The last letter of the name "Supox" is an X. :P

oof.  I need sleep.