The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release => General UQM Discussion => Topic started by: taltamir on March 11, 2007, 09:05:46 pm



Title: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: taltamir on March 11, 2007, 09:05:46 pm
Ok, we drag and drag and drag this issue.

There are a bunch of speech bits that were dropped from the 3do version on which this open source project is based on. This includes the infamous bit where the mycon give you their homeworld address, allowing you to finish the syreen quest of sending them to orgaon.

While people argue it over and try to make the best quality fan recordings of those missing sentances more and more people have to come to the forums to figure out how to complete those missing quests...

Thus a poll finally asking people what they prefer be DONE now. (this is why "just don't do anything for now" isn't an option).

The options are:
1. Add in the text without speech, adding fan made speech would be judged later.
That way people don't need to consult the forum to finish quests, yes we might get "bug reports' about missing audio, but thats better then bug reports about missing text preventing you from finishing a quest. Quite frankly, since I don't play with spoken audio ANYWAYS then I couldn't care less...

2. Add in the text with fan made speech regardless of quality, later replacing it with higher quality (contest based?).
This is just like it says, just get the game to complete status, yes a few sentences would sound horrible (until replaced with better samples), but at least it wouldn't be missing content.

3. Add in the text only with high quality fan made speech (contest based?), leave it out until you have high quality speech.
Well, this is similar actually to the "do nothing" option I said we wouldn't have, the difference is that we start a CONTEST where within a month or two people judge entries on voices and the winners get entered. That way something is actually being DONE. However, the missing text would not actually be added until the contest is done and over with and you have winning voice overs... So for a few more monthes we will still be missing part of the conversations...


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: Aya Reiko on March 11, 2007, 09:54:23 pm
I vote for the fourth option, NO.


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: Defender on March 12, 2007, 12:27:51 am
I'm telling you, add it as a "PC Text Only" option, where you can play with just the text and not the voices. I know you can basically accomplish this now by setting the voice to zero, but having a way to play like the PC with the included "missing" text would be a completion to this project. Right now the text is not included even if the voices are shut off. I'm not even sure how hard it would be to slip something like this in but if it's at all possible I hope you highly consider this as an option.


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: Zeep-Eeep on March 12, 2007, 06:50:05 pm
I voted for text without speech. I missed having that text to guide me when I first played
UQM. I always have the game sound/music/voices turned off anyway, so the speech isn't
important to me. As long as the text is there, that's great.


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: Defender on March 13, 2007, 12:28:39 am
DEFIANT: This wouldn't solve the problem. A new player (YES! EVERYBODY - THINK ABOUT NEW PLAYERS!) would surely NOT choose PC Text Only since it would seem a limitation (and it would be a limitation - no speech). If I were a new player I'd uncheck this option, eventually running into the infamous Organon problem.
Well here's a solution..make it default to "Text Only".
Either way, your still going to get people asking "Where's Organon/Why isn't there any speech?" questions. And just because someone is new, isn't a good enough excuse not to include the text because YOU might foresee some problems. That's why this boards here...to help people with the game.

I personally could care less if there is "authentic speech" associated with the missing text. Just so long as there's an option to have the text at all. Remember the core goal of this project is to port the 3do version. Anything PC related, is a bonus, from my understanding since I've been here.

I'd love to here from are resident Core Team on this.


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: meep-eep on March 13, 2007, 02:01:51 am
The goal is to provide the best of  both SC2 releases, giving people the choice where something is a matter of taste. But we only have the 3DO source to work with.
The original plan was to have separate comm files, one for the 3DO, with added subtitles, and the other, text-only, with the DOS version's lines. We may deviate from this where there are lines missing in the 3DO version crucial to completing the game, but this is still basically the plan, as far as I'm concerned (it's been a long time since it's been brought up, so I don't know about the other core team members).


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: kwamp on March 13, 2007, 04:09:25 pm
Sorry, I'm slightly naive about the 3DO version...
How did people playing the 3DO version for the first time (without playing the PC version) know where the homeworld was?

-kwamp


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: Draxas on March 13, 2007, 06:28:48 pm
As I understand it, at least one then-contemporary gaming magazine published a strategy guide for the game. Barring that, however, players probably did get awfully frustrated. Then again, enough persistence and random floundering around will solve this puzzle for you, you just need to have the dedication to follow through on it (and enough luck to find what you're looking for with enough time left to avoid the cleansing).

As for my vote, I say just add in the text, with a suitable pause in the spoken dialog to give the player enough time to read it. It's not like this is version 1.0, there's still plenty of time to hammer out the finer details, but in the meantime, the game is missing some essential information. On a (somewhat) related note, I seem to recall an old version of UQM actually had this text, but so as not to interrupt the speech, it flickered by on the screen too quickly to be read. Still, the "review dialog" button was our friend in this instance. Anybody know why this was removed? Or perhaps, is my memory completely failing me?


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: meep-eep on March 13, 2007, 08:46:52 pm
The 3DO didn't have subtitles, so they were initially copied from the PC version, resulting in quite a number of discrepencies. Eventually, some people (Nic in particular, iirc) went through all 12 hours of speech to match the text against them.


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: taltamir on March 13, 2007, 09:48:09 pm
the 3do version came with a huge (4x5 foot) map of the galaxy that contained, among other things, a marking called "planets of interest" where every planet which might be a home world / something critical was listed... in other words, it came with cheats... :P

I still have this map somewhere I think...

As for a new player using the voices for "the most out of the game"... I disagree... On most games I switch to subtitles online because the voice overs are horrible... examples of good voice overs include things like jade empire, where it is a pleasure to listen. Examples of bad voice overs are too numerous to count.


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: meep-eep on March 13, 2007, 09:56:18 pm
the 3do version came with a huge (4x5 foot) map of the galaxy that contained, among other things, a marking called "planets of interest" where every planet which might be a home world / something critical was listed... in other words, it came with cheats... :P

Hmm... that would explain some things. Perhaps the best solution is to include a similar starmap.


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: Spektrowski on March 13, 2007, 10:02:27 pm
I've got a similar starmap - it came with my Star Control 3 package that also included a CD with SC1 and SC2.


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: Novus on March 14, 2007, 02:06:32 pm
Include cheats? Nah, never mind. Even the "Go to the forum and read the sticky thread" solution is better.
I mean, such a thing would almost certainly spoil the game.
I highly hope that was a joke. (a scary one for sure)
Take a look at the SC2 3DO manual. Pages 39-45 are labelled "Hint Book" and, among other things, list all the homeworlds. At least they're clearly labelled as hints.


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: taltamir on March 16, 2007, 08:59:45 am
the problem is that the "hints" are required to finish the game since some KEY dialogs are missing (not to mention some nice juicy non plot advancing ones, which are a shame too).

Including cheats is kind of pointless though, especially when they are already all there in the wiki, just go to the spoiler version and look up each race for a list of their colonized world's coordinates... And as for the SC3 + 2 package comming with that map... DOH, that is what I meant.. I don't know if the original SC2 by itself came with such a map.. I got my SC2 with SC3... oops :P

And its no joke about it being a cheat map... at least it wasn't TOO clear... it kinda fit as a old "nav log" sort of deal.. kind of makes sense in SOME ways... plus it was just fricking AWESOME, I used to have it hanging on the wall behind my monitor as a poster :P (even though it was just a black and white chart)


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: taltamir on March 18, 2007, 10:24:19 pm
bump


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: taltamir on March 26, 2007, 09:01:38 am
bump


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: Valaggar on March 26, 2007, 02:19:58 pm
You know how stubborn meep-eep is. He wants only original speech - and we can't obtain it.
Ah - is there someone out there with a voice similar enough to the Mycon/Dnyarri or to the Arilou/Druuge to try to record the missing lines?


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: meep-eep on March 26, 2007, 04:13:25 pm
You know how stubborn meep-eep is.
No, tell me, how stubborn am I?

Quote
He wants only original speech - and we can't obtain it.
No, I would want speech which fits in with the original (that is, you don't realise it is not original). The reason I didn't want yours was because I was of the opinion that it was quite plainly crap (although I did put it a bit more subtle the last two times you brought it up).
And I am still of that opinion. I guess that makes me stubborn.

Just get over it; it's not going in.


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: Valaggar on March 26, 2007, 04:59:16 pm
Quote from: meep-eep
Just get over it; it's not going in.
If I said it's going in, I would have contradicted myself.

Quote from: meep-eep
No, I would want speech which fits in with the original (that is, you don't realise it is not original). The reason I didn't want yours was because I was of the opinion that it was quite plainly crap (although I did put it a bit more subtle the last two times you brought it up).
I think this is the second time I say that I agree that a worse quality wasn't possible. I just said that the quality may be less important than replacing this important missing line.

Quote from: meep-eep
And I am still of that opinion. I guess that makes me stubborn.
In fact, if I think deeper, I'm stubborn too.

Quote from: meep-eep
No, tell me, how stubborn am I?
You aren't (that is, if you at least put the missing text without speech).

And finally - sorry if I offended you, I didn't mean it. It's that sticky question that is unnerving me to the point of ultimate embarrasment and shame.


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: Valaggar on March 26, 2007, 05:29:40 pm
I've got an idea.
What if you add the text without speech, and when the game reaches the point where it is supposed to play the missing lines' speech (+background music), it plays only a whizzing sound, like when the speaker interferes with a mobile phone.

And the player will think that the problem is with his speakers, not the game.


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: Anthony on March 26, 2007, 06:05:25 pm
The whizzing sound would distract players, and they may think that one of the speech files have been corrupted.  I don't think that they'd like being deceived int  thinking that their speakers are broken too.  If the text does in fact get added, I'd rather hear it with no speech at all.

It's not a real problem to me though; it's just a set of missing coordinates, that can be easily found in this forum.


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: Valaggar on March 26, 2007, 06:12:45 pm
It's better to think that the game has a little audio problem than to be required to minimize it and Google the answer 'till you find this forum.
Not to mention that maybe you'll never find the answer.


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: countchocula86 on March 26, 2007, 07:09:20 pm
Would it be possible to have the text added as just text, with the bg music playing? Maybe make it an add-on, like the remixs, so not everyone has to have it in?


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: Valaggar on March 26, 2007, 08:27:17 pm
The problem with making it an addon is that some new players may not download it - and those who download still won't hear any speech at that part. So this doesn't solve anything.


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: Cedric6014 on March 26, 2007, 10:09:15 pm
It's not a real problem to me though; it's just a set of missing coordinates, that can be easily found in this forum.

It might not be  real problem for those of us who have played the game a million times but for new people it IS a problem. If you want this game to be accessible and broaden the fan base, fix the problem. If you want this game to remain an in-joke amongst a bunch of nerds, dont fix the problem.

http://boards.1up.com/zd/board/message?board.id=show&message.id=93574 (http://boards.1up.com/zd/board/message?board.id=show&message.id=93574)
Read this to see how impossible it is for new people without help/cheating

Having got that off my chest i'm afraid i dont know the best way to do it, accept i think text and no voice is better than nothing for now.


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: Draxas on March 26, 2007, 10:37:48 pm
No, it solves the problem that is at the core of the issue; the missing text will be restored. I don't see why we can't just leave a gap in the speech for the missing lines, and (possibly) fill it in with fan-made speech (how about a complete dialog re-recording? Any takers? ;)) later.


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: Novus on March 27, 2007, 01:41:59 pm
As a non-core team contributor to UQM, I think I have some understanding of what's going on. Basically, the core team doesn't want to change anything unless it's done absolutely right, especially with regard to the content of the game. This would be an entirely reasonable approach if UQM were a work in progress without users; the problem is that UQM already has a large amount of users and runs the risk that everyone has tired of it before it hits 1.0.

Obvious bug fixes tend to be implemented very quickly, but anything that can be done in many ways or isn't unambiguously the best way to do things tends to get postponed. For example, my ship spin video patch (http://bugs.uqm.stack.nl/show_bug.cgi?id=733) took about a year and a half to get into UQM, mostly due to the fact that it takes several months before someone looks at a patch and says what needs to be fixed. The Mycon homeworld thing (http://bugs.uqm.stack.nl/show_bug.cgi?id=327) has been an issue for about four years, now, and there's still no consensus on whether it needs to be fixed, let alone quickly.

While I've in the past considered the missing Mycon homeworld location to be the intended behaviour, the sheer amount of complaints we get suggests that even if this was the way TFB wanted it, it's still bad. The fact that later game packages are crawling with hints (hint books, maps or suchlike) also suggests this was a problem, and the 3DO version is missing other speech.

A completely different solution to those proposed would be to include, in the game documentation, the locations of all homeworlds known to Earth at the time of the mission to Vela. This makes sense in the context of the starmap provided with the PC version (with first war-era spheres of influence), which should be provided to the player as a part of UQM anyway, and in terms of information available to the Vela colonists. Hierarchy homeworlds can be left out from the map if you like (for example, to require the player to do the "doggone quasar" thing with the Ilwrath) with the argument that they were unknown to the Alliance at the time. This would also solve the Syreen homeworld issue elegantly (Talana would assume, correctly, you know where Syra was).

Suggested homeworlds to list or add to the UQM standard starmap:
  • Human: Sol III (obvious!)
  • Androsynth: Eta Vulpeculae II (star mentioned by Hayes)
  • Chenjesu: Procyon II (mentioned by Hayes in passing, should be known)
  • Mycon: Epsilon Scorpii 1 (solves Mycon homeworld problem).
  • Shofixti: Delta Gorno 1 (mentioned by Hayes).
  • Syreen: Beta Copernicus 1 (fixes Syra/egg case problem, likely to have been mentioned in some Human/Syreen encounter).
  • Umgah: Beta Orionis 1 (constellation mentioned by Hayes, Umgah known to be talkative).
  • VUX: Beta Luyten 1 (constellation mentioned by Hayes, known to Yehat).
  • Yehat: Gamma Serpentis 1 (not mentioned by Hayes, but not important to gameplay either way).
  • Unzervalt: Vela 1 (obvious!)


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: Valaggar on March 27, 2007, 02:12:00 pm
Actually, Sol 3 (for those of us who live under a rock) and Epsilon Scorpii 1 are enough, since the others are referenced in the game (clue&location gathering is an important part of the game).
Even Beta Copernicus is referenced by the Melnorme.

Plot-wise, you don't have the archive of everything those races said (nor does Hayes).


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: Aya Reiko on March 27, 2007, 09:53:22 pm
Or you could leave out references to the Syreen and Mycon homeworlds on the map entirely.  You know there is a such thing as exploring the worlds.  Root around the Mycon Sphere enough, and you find their homeworld soon enough.


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: Novus on March 28, 2007, 08:14:52 am
Or you could leave out references to the Syreen and Mycon homeworlds on the map entirely.  You know there is a such thing as exploring the worlds.  Root around the Mycon Sphere enough, and you find their homeworld soon enough.
That used to be my response, too, but too many get confused by the fact that there is no clear indication that the Sun Device world isn't the Mycon homeworld, and therefore don't try to look for it.


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: meep-eep on March 28, 2007, 10:28:31 pm
The next release is still far in the future, and the people who download the snapshots are the people who know about the missing text anyhow. So fixing this isn't urgent. That said, if it's up to me, the next release will have the PC text without speech for the missing lines.


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: Cedric6014 on March 28, 2007, 10:43:54 pm
Yaaaaaaaaay!
We're patient and can wait 'til the next release.


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: Draxas on March 29, 2007, 12:32:21 am
That said, if it's up to me, the next release will have the PC text without speech for the missing lines.

I think that's all anyone really ever wanted to hear.

Thanks Meep! ;D


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: Defender on March 29, 2007, 02:17:16 am
Sweet deal Meep. Can't wait for it! Thanks are in order...*raises bottle of Mickeys* Cheers!! And thanks!


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: Valaggar on March 29, 2007, 12:13:16 pm
Yes, Meep! A thousands of thanks once again!
You will be immortalized as the blessed figure that delivered unto us the missing lines!
May the Ultron be with you!


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: taltamir on April 03, 2007, 01:17:38 am
awesome! this is great.

Now all we need to do to make it perfect is find some really REALLY good voice overs to go with it. But at least the missing text will be there so that people wouldn't be as lost :)


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: Valaggar on April 03, 2007, 07:10:32 am
We will have to wait looooong for them…
For the Melnorme, we need someone with a Kzer-Za voice (it’s the same voice actor, but the Melnorme has a high pitch filter).
For the Mycon, it’s Paul Reiche III. We need a Talking Pet/Mycon voice for the Mycon.
(or mail him at alexness@toysforbob.com until he submits…)
For the Arilou, it’s in fact the Druuge voice.


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: Draxas on April 03, 2007, 04:55:34 pm
Nobody said they have to sound *exactly* the same, or even use the same filters. As long as we can get some good voice acting (easier said than done, at least on the volunteer basis we need) that fits the in-game speaker, we should be golden.


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: Valaggar on April 03, 2007, 05:29:00 pm
The problem is not that there are no volunteers, but rather that the volunteers are exactly those who DON'T have how to speak the slightest similar to the original voice actors.


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: Aya Reiko on April 04, 2007, 08:28:52 pm
Or you could leave out references to the Syreen and Mycon homeworlds on the map entirely.  You know there is a such thing as exploring the worlds.  Root around the Mycon Sphere enough, and you find their homeworld soon enough.
That used to be my response, too, but too many get confused by the fact that there is no clear indication that the Sun Device world isn't the Mycon homeworld, and therefore don't try to look for it.
If I'm not mistaken, they make it rather clear the SD world is not their home world when you first visit that planet.


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: countchocula86 on April 04, 2007, 09:39:12 pm
Even still, text that was in the original version should be part of this one as well, imho.


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: Valaggar on April 05, 2007, 12:48:40 pm
Quote from: Aya Reiko
If I'm not mistaken, they make it rather clear the SD world is not their home world when you first visit that planet.
You ARE mistaken. It's just the other way around. They name it a "special place", which makes you think that it's their homeworld:
This is a special place
filled with Juffo-Wup.
We must not allow it to be soiled by the Non.
You must go. Now.


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: Mormont on April 15, 2007, 08:15:10 am
Out of curiosity, what dialogue is missing besides the important stuff (Metachron, Mycon, and Supox)?

I think the dialogue should be added without voice for now, and I also think including the original PC release color map with SC1 spheres of influence is a very good idea. Perhaps even have some way to access it from the game's main menu so that players can easily view it without digging through files. The map is a good way to get players started without giving away too much and provides some historical perspective for people who have played the game already.

However, I DON'T think the 3DO map should be included. I had that included with the DOS version I bought (it was a later release of the game), and it spoiled a lot of the fun of figuring things out yourself for me in my first playthrough.


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: Valaggar on April 15, 2007, 09:52:01 am
The Supox dialogue doesn't have any missing parts. What's missing besides Mycon and Melnorme (MetaChron) is this Ariloulaleelay quote:
Zelnick: Hey looky what we've got. The Talking Pet!
Arilou (Falayalaralfali):
So you do, my clever child!
You must have obtained some sort of psionic nullifier, am I right?
What a fine weapon the Dnyarri will be against the Ur-Quan, your enemy.
But I warn you, beware!
You now possess one of the most powerful creatures in the history of your galaxy
and also one of the most evil... as you judge evil.
We warn you, do not believe anything the Dnyarri says.
It speaks only the lies it believes will convince you to set it free
and that you must NEVER do.

and this Utwig quote:
BUT WAIT!!
The Ultron moans and hums! Matters of significance are being relayed to our brains.
It has been so long since we communicated with the Ultimate in such a manner
but slowly, the truth is revealed!!...
Something dire is afoot in the galaxy
The Kohr-Ah, the dark cousins of the Ur-Quan, have won their Doctrinal Conflict
and are even now moving through the stars on a mission of universal genocide.
The Ultron reveals that our participation is required to stop the Kohr-Ah
before they destroy all life in this part of the galaxy.
We will grant you the boon of our nigh invincible Jugger starship designs
as well as a supply of trained starship commanders.
If our allies, the Supox, are still alive, I am certain they will give you the same assistance.
(if you give them the Ultron while the Kohr-Ah are on their Death March)


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: Cedric6014 on April 15, 2007, 11:05:50 am

and I also think including the original PC release color map with SC1 spheres of influence is a very good idea. Perhaps even have some way to access it from the game's main menu so that players can easily view it without digging through files. The map is a good way to get players started without giving away too much and provides some historical perspective for people who have played the game already.

However, I DON'T think the 3DO map should be included. I had that included with the DOS version I bought (it was a later release of the game), and it spoiled a lot of the fun of figuring things out yourself for me in my first playthrough.

I agree


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: Valaggar on April 15, 2007, 11:25:55 am
I concur.


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: Huggybaby on April 15, 2007, 01:15:01 pm
Hello everyone,

I'm a noobie here. My friend and I really enjoyed Star Control 1 on the Sega Genesis back in the day. So, recently I tried the Ur-Quan Masters, but had to try it a few times before I got the hang of the controls, and once I did I was hooked.

I've had a hard time keeping track of my progress. I don't think this game was made to be conquered the first time through.

I voted to add text now, and voices whenever it's appropriate. I also collected the 3DO and PC manuals, the big black and white and smaller color map, and some walkthroughs here: http://www.mediafire.com/?fodf2iw2dmz

Thanks for the great forum, and for keeping SC2 alive! Long Live Star Control!

Huggybaby


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: Valaggar on April 15, 2007, 01:30:18 pm
Hmm... don't forget to write down every promising bit of information you get from the aliens you meet (notably star/constellation/race names).
Hayes has some good stuff about alien races too. And a irregular news bulletin.


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: UniAce on July 17, 2008, 12:53:37 am
Just wondering if this is any closer to being resolved.  I really would like to see that missing text back in the game one way or another.  Star Control forever!


Title: Re: Adding missing text vote!
Post by: Vee-R on July 17, 2008, 02:20:33 am
Hmmm.

Does this place (http://uqm.stack.nl/diff/) contain ALL the missing text?

I've been sort of an audio hobbyist ever since I can remember myself, so I'm going to try something.   Specifically, reconstructing the missing speech from bits and pieces of existing dialog.

Of course, this will all require very careful editing and patching together, and if I really tried to do all of it, it would take longer than synthesizing the Chmmr without a Sun Device, but I'd like to give it a shot, if only for the sake of curiosity/challenge.  Perhaps only the really important missing bits could be taken care of.