The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

I was thinking, it doesnt make any sense that a space ship will acumulate speed from flying by the star. Because it has a radial force and it would only change the direction of the ships velocity, not its length.
So how does the star physics work in star control?

First of all, I assume you mean planets instead of stars (as planets are the only objects in combat with gravity). In any case, gravitational slingshots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_slingshot) are a well-established technique in space travel.

Star Control uses a horribly mutated version of Newtonian physics for combat. First of all, all speeds are in the frame of reference of the planet and the speed of the firing ship is ignored when projectiles as launched from it (allowing e.g. Eluders and Podships to shoot themselves if they are moving too fast). A related oddity is that ships have a maximum speed and thrust does not increase speed beyond this limit.

This ship-specific maximum speed limit is replaced by a (very high) global maximum speed whenever the ship is under the influence of a planet (i.e. the gravitiational force, which is roughly an inverse-square force as it should be, is high enough); in other words, when a ship is close enough to a planet, it no longer has maximum speed limits on thrust.

See src/sc2code/ship.c and src/sc2code/gravity.c for details.

You know, in the real world, gravitational slingshots can't be used in dogfights, and are actually used for saving fuel. And planets are bigger. Also asteroids. And asteroids have different sizes and don't wander all over the solar system. And collisions actually DEAL damage. And ships don't have maximum speeds - I mean that their maximum speed is the speed of light, which is a bit too fast to take into account right now. And so on. (And fleet battles are fought with fleets, not ships launched into combat one after another)
That's why about everybody considers Super Melee to be an abstract-y representation of a fleet battle.

I will take a look at the source code.
But still, in the wikipedia link you have given me, when the point of reference is that so the planet is standing still, then the velocity of the space craft relative to the planet do not increase.

<troll>

???

We are still peddling on flawd rocketships that kill all the crew instantly when there's a piece of insulation loose. Unless you happen to have some state of the art spaceship in your backyard  ?

I take it you mean in the real world, it is theorised that... ?

</troll>

Nope, no matter what we HAVE, those are the physics laws. It's PROVEN. It's what happens to any object. Spaceships are not magical.

Wha? It's a video game, and all I think it "represents" is two ships dogfighting around an unrealisticly small planet. :P If you're going to try to make sense of Star Control, how do you explain the planet lander sequences, the fact your ship explodes when all the crew are killed, etc?

Seriously, like all video games, it's better if you don't think about it too hard. :P

Suspension of disbelief helps in many cases at such... oddities in Star Control, but here we can explain this:
Super Melee - abstract (this means that the crew thing is abstract too, as is the transfer)
Planet lander - abstract
Need to mine many planets for resources - abstract

You see, everything can be explained in this manner. And it works quite well. Of course, it's better not to trouble our little minds with solving the unsolvable - but it's funnier to play a game you deem realistic, which can be accomplished in two ways:
1)Give makeshift explanations (=it's abstract)
2)Suspension of disbelief

The technology of aliens that can travel between stars might be beyond our scope of comprehension, like the hyper space map the Chenjesu made. Humans can never understand how the relative distances of the stars can be put in a 2D map, but it just works, so we live by it.

True, but in the context they're used that's not the point; in the frames of reference we care about (the Sun, Earth, the target planetoid), we get a useful change. In any case, SC physics and real life are different enough to make comparisons iffy at best.

Tiberian: First of all, we don't have any indication whatsoever that HyperSpace portals are not in the same plane. Who knows, maybe what you see is what you have, there.
Secondly, advanced technology doesn't mean that: 1) they can warp space in such a degree that planets are the size of ships, and that ships exiting the arena reappear on the other edge, 2) on the other hand, they can't even crack a slave shield or, let's say, warp the annoying creatures on planets or warp space in the Storage Bay to hold more minerals and so on.

We can simply use suspension of disbelief or the abstractness explanation for such creepy things as Super Melee and landers.

I think you could get fairly SoD on Melee, in reference to a few things, if you let combat occur in a sort of halfway-to-hyperspace phase.

In Hyperspace, ships are roughly the size of solar systems. In this halfway space, they're just the size of continents.

In Hyperspace, ships have a maximum speed and rapidly decelerate. In this halfway space, there is a maximum speed but no rapid deceleration.

In Hyperspace, ships are so powerfully affected by gravity that they're ripped out of Hyperspace. In this halfway space, they're so powerfully affected by gravity that orbiting at an altitude of 5000 km takes around a second.


Why bother with this? Gravity whips are mentioned in conversation. If we are to admit that, then we aren't taking it from one source, and it's basically canon. In order to fit that in, we have to make some changes to the physics. Other things , like 1 on 1 battle, are not supported outside of the engine, and we should drop them.

Don't forget that Melee may happen between two ships that START in TrueSpace. In that case, it should take place entirely in TrueSpace.
I'd say that the gravity whip mention in a conversation (the Orz "These are best for letting go near *heavy space* *planet bodies*") is simply like a joke, or like a convention between the player and the designer, as are many tutorials (when you hear a character say "Press Left Mouse Button").

Also, it's not necessary that the Flagship, in HyperSpace, is the size of star systems. It may either be that the portals are further from the camera than the Flagship, or that the Flagship is actually the same size as usual as to star systems, but is represented bigger (again "it's abstract") to facilitate gameplay.

To the latter explanation this additional argument greatly helps:
Turning in TS doesn't use fuel, since thrusting doesn't, too (in fact you use, but too little to matter, since there's inertia).
Turning in HS doesn't use much fuel, too, since the distance your ship travels by turning is actually much smaller than represented graphically (visualize this by visualizing the Flagship the size of a pixel).

I believe this was supposed to be in reference to other ships in Hyperspace, not your own; those moving gravity wells are roughly the size of a gravity well generated by a star system.

What do you want to say?

Even if the ships start in TrueSpace, doesn't mean they aren't using some Hyperspace-related technology to do their maneuvering in combat.

If the Leyland gravity whip is a combat maneuver, then gravity is much more important to SC ships than we would expect. This is a way to achieve that.

It just seems too... made up, for me.

After all, only the Arilou use HyperSpace warps in combat.
The "warping in" animation in the beginning of ANY combat, including TS to TS, is just a coding simplification.

The Arilou aren't using HS warps, they're using QS.

Look. We have a ship, the flagship, which can cross the solar system (which I take to be 7/6 the orbital diameter of Neptune) two and a half times per day, as long as it wants, without refueling.
That is 35 AU * 8 minutes/ AU *2.5 / day = 700 minutes/day ~= 0.5 c

To do this, there must be relativity violations.

The most natural source for these relativity violations would be HS-related tech.

The SC1 DataBank says that they're using HS warps, see here (http://uqm.stack.nl/wiki/Image:Star_control_i_arilou_skiff_databank.png).

Gameplay simplification. Just like the fact that planets aren't moving, aren't at scale, there aren't all satellites, there is no Asteroid Belt, there are no nebulas and the list could go on forever.

That graphic was created by SC1-era folk. In-universe explanation, they didn't understand QuasiSpace, assumed it was just another HS trick. Hayes hadn't heard about it, instead referring to an unspecified way of getting around really quickly.

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This is a direct reference in conversation. It cannot be dismissed as game mechanics. As I said earlier. A gravity whip, in order to be 'speeding out of orbit',  or indeed to even work in that situation, would have to be many orders of magnitude more powerful than permitted by TrueSpace physics, and not be like normal gravity.

Additional supporting quotes:

With pure TrueSpace physics, there would be no good reason for either of these statements to be the case.

This is getting even more far-fetched with each passing post.

Hmm... who said that Star Control TrueSpace physics should be the same to our physics? After all, it's a game.
It'd be sad and *frumple* to really have one-by-one battles, no fleet battles (and don't forget that multi-ship fleet battles ARE referenced, too, though I can't find where right now).

"Many *gravity centers* in *heavy space* make good *party places*." - what exactly IS a party, anyway? It's not combat, that's for sure. Dismissed.

"they favor combat near strong gravity wells" - as I replied to the Talana quote.

Just one problem. D999 makes an absolutely true statement. There was no concept of Quasispace in the days of SC1 (possibly not even an in-universe concept of Hyperspace, either, though I'm not 100% sure about that). Quasispace came about in SC2, quite possibly to provide convenient explanations for all the weird stuff the Arilou can do.


First you try to justify things using real physics, now you dismiss real physics entirely. Make up your mind.


*Party places* are the best spots for *dancing.*

*Party* is something Orz does with his friends as well as enemies, as evidenced by this quotes:

So much *juicy*! Let's have *party time* sooner.

If you are *sick* you should have a *party*.
We can come and *play* at your *house*.

This is my *house.* Did you come to *play*?.
Do not be sad if you are *other*. We can still have a *party*.
There are never enough *campers*.

Even more *pleasant combinations*. I am *successful* the most.
Perhaps after the biggest *party* you will understanding the Orz
and I can showing you other *levels*.
There are so many, but you only *play* on this one.
One is not enough.
We are *friends* now. Never be afraid to *open* enough and *spread the wax*.

In fact, I didn't try to justify things using real physics. Of course, I had to depart more and more from real physics.

Ah, and I forgot to say - some races are advantages if they disable their "halfway-HyperSpace" technology during the fight (notably Ur-Quan, Kohr-Ah, Chmmr, Androsynth, Chenjesu), and they don't (in your interpretation). And you can't say that this is because their opponents prevent them from doing so, since 4/5 of these races have more advanced tech, especially the Ur-Quan and the Chmmr.

How do you figure on those? I could kind of get it on the Androsynth - they can coast coming out of a blazer - but I really doubt that any ship which basically renders itself immobile is going to derive an advantage from this.

All we need is for the time it takes to get in and out of this to be nontrivially long, and it is tactically useless.


Fortunately for us, fleet battles are distinctly referenced in-game. As I have referred to in this very thread. It is not game mechanics alone I am considering, it is that PLUS dialog reference which I am considering as definitive here. If people talk about it as if it were real, it's real.

And gravity whips being tactically relevant is referenced in-game, by Talana, as pointed out earlier.

Your 'response' to the Talana quote is absurd - physics is different enough to make what she said make sense with no technology, just so you can avoid having a technology that is very well in line with what we know is available?
Do keep in mind that the Emergency HS escape system can be used in-system, and does not escape to outside the system.


Note that the semi-HS instantly accounts for planets not being at scale. Lack of asteroid belt and nebulas is pretty simple considering that both of those are too sparse to be vaguely relevant (a nebula's average pressure is higher vacuum than we can create on Earth)

And which other gameplay simplications are referenced in dialog? Like if Hayes said that Jupiter had four moons, we'd have to accept that the other 15 or so had been destroyed somehow.

Alright, I understand. I'll give an answer to encompass everything:

In fact, since the game mechanics alone wouldn't be enough to justify the semi-HS tech (and Emergency escape systems could simply be an Arilouish HS warp that needs much fuel and time since we don't have the technology; about semi-HS: don't forget that ships meeting in HS are "sucked back to TS", not to semi-HS, in "Deep Space" -- and then there's that planet IN DEEP SPACE too, just like we didn't have enough proof for the abstractness of melee), you are referring to the dialogue.

OK, the dialogue would offer enough proof; but now, really, it may simply be a tentative of the creators to incorporate Melee in the full game, to give the battles a more "professional" look, so maybe that dialogue shouldn't be taken too seriously (just like in tutorials, as I said a few posts back).

What about when what's said in-game contradicts what happens in melee?

For example, the Chenjesu are supposed to be psy-immune, but the Syreen special works on them; I don't know if the Flagship can ever fight against a Syreen Penetrator, but if it could, the Taalo shield wouldn't help against them either.

I'd say dialogue wins.

Alright, I'll accept the existence of the halfway-HS drive. But this simply means that the ships go REALLY fast - this doesn't make small planets necessary (since large planets would serve as gravity wells just as well at those speeds - it would be like using a small planet with Super Melee speeds), nor the strange asteroids (which are also destroyed in one hit!), neither screen wrapping (ESPECIALLY! since then how would you be able to MOVE by using that drive?! and Spathi wouldn't use it).

So it's simply a very fast way of traveling - I mean, it's the other things that made me oppose the theory, albeit I liked the halfway-HS idea, not the fast speeds (in fact, those are interesting).

Another bit of info - probably interplanetary travel uses halfway-HS and battles use quarter-HS, since there's the "warping in" animation and the Emergency Warp drive.


Though I somehow doubt that FF/PR3 wanted it to be halfway-HS -- after all, it's not dark red. And no canon source refers to this tech. And gravity whips can be explained by FF/PR3 ignorance in physics. And then there's the lack of time passage while orbiting a planet, on which you can't use not even quarter-HS since you're too close to a strong gravity well - so the enemy ships could reach you meanwhile.

Another argument against "halfway-HS" - Emergency Warp Units are harder to use near strong gravity wells -> that's why the Ur-Quan prefer battle near strong gravity wells, so as the prey doesn't escape them.

The Talana quote is explained simply: they sped up using a powered gravitational slingshot, what's wrong with this?

That if you have a drive fast enough to be relevant to these battles, normal gravity is so totally irrelevant as to be... well, irrelevant.

That's what's wrong with it. There would be no slingshot in that slingshot.

As for wrapping, yeah. Great. That's something that's not included. But if we're doing the half-HS at all, then we get tiny-ized planets for free, so why not toss 'em in?

I agree about half and quarter, actually, now that you point it out.

As for orbiting, I'm not sure what you're getting at.


EP: Two answers:
1) Neither of those can happen in story mode. I would count that as non-canon, and can be very readily dismissed as SC1-specific creations never meant to fight each other. So, Chenjesu, if dialog says they're psi-immune, are. You might even take it to the extent that Mmrnmhrm would not necessarily be psi-vulnerable, even if not specifically mentioned in dialog.

2) those Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm ships could be mostly crewed by Shofixti.

You may laugh at me, but I forgot too what I meant with that. Anyway, it wasn't a valid argument, for sure.

Not exactly. Depending on the specific stats of your ship - especially slower ships may use G.W.-s.
Of course, there's the problem with the absence of screen-wrapping, which will cause your ship to speed AWAY from the battle.

An argument for you: The Flagship's engines (and engine trails for all ships) are red, like HyperSpace.

Yeah, it seems that we must include everything if we want the theory to be self-consistent.
How sad that this does not explain the abstract planet landings - you surely can't use HS tech on planets, otherwise everything would be much different from what we know (living on planets would be a chaos).

Especially in that Spathi vs Mmrnmhrm scenario, where only Mmrnmhrm are available.

Sure, ships that are roughly 100,000 times slower than the other ships.


I do not see that the battle has a fixed location IRT planets, really.


 ;D


No, we need to include everything if we want the theory to explain everything.

Now, special HS could end up being like the battle cubes in X-1999: once it's been made, you can't get out except alone (or, in SC2, with an escape unit). And it only takes one of you to make it.
But I think that's excessive.


Do you mean 'except'? Anyway, do the Syreen fight the Mmrnmhrm in that scenario?  Oh, right. They don't do that in SC1.

Well, indeed. Maybe gravity has a special effect upon ships in quarter-HS?
This way we can stick with the theory, while confirming only high speeds in star systems and (especially) gravity whips.

I MEANT: Group of Non ships, group of Mycon ships. They grow turgid, Juffo-Wup requires that Non must be turned into either Juffo-Wup or Void and all that stuff, and violent action ensues. Mycons use a gravity whip to speed themselves up. If they speed themselves up towards the Non, (and albeit Juffo-Wup flows through time and space and cannot be stopped by mere energy blasts) they run in their own plasmoids and are very fine targets too. If they speed up in any other direction, the Non simply have to wait for the Mycon to depart so as they are no longer threats.

But I just reviewed Talana's account of the ambush - it seems that the Mycon tactic was simply to use the gravity whip to get out of orbit as fast as possible. This fits the non-special-HS (standard) explanation, I think.

"Especially" was meant to be ironical.

Apropos, Syreen MAY fight Mmrnmhrm and Chenjesu in SC1: In Practice mode, you MAY select ships that belong to the opposite side as well.

1) upon recalculation, I was exaggerating. Lop of two orders of magnitude, but the point stands.

2) that was the reason I put it forward in the first place: gravity is so strong in HS that HS itself breaks down, so in this lesser HS, could it just pull really hard?

Another argument supporting halfway-HS: Every source indicate the Vindicator as a ship of roughly 270 metres length and 44 metres height. For comparison, a Cruiser is 223.5 metres long. Then the 12 escort ships can't possibly be sticked to the Vindicator.

But, even in TS, speed is totally independent of escorts, and space is measured in slots, not size or mass - so probably there are some points in the halfway-HS bubble in which ships can be placed so that they are pulled by the Vindicator - a dodecaedron.