The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

If the Ur-Quan use slaves from all over the galaxy, shouldn't I be seeing ships belonging to races that aren't even located within the confines of the game? If not in SC2, then definitely in SC1. I am calling plot hole on this.

You mean Kzer-Za Thralls? I suppose some could be slaves on the selfdestructing Dreadnaughts and that way you'll never see them. As for Thrall ships, the Kzer-Za might prefer to only use Thralls local to the space they're currently in.

But yeah, it is a bit of a plothole. They could've included some random encounters in the Kzer-Za sphere that were ships from out of town. It's always good to hint of things that goes on outside the screen, it makes the universe much richer since imagination tend to fill in what's missing in creative ways.

(but you shouldn't take it so far that the player feels like he's been left out.)

There has been plenty of discussion on this matter here:
From http://uqm.stack.nl/forum/index.php?topic=3563.msg45655#msg45655 (http://uqm.stack.nl/forum/index.php?topic=3563.msg45655#msg45655) to http://uqm.stack.nl/forum/index.php?topic=3563.msg45729#msg45729 (http://uqm.stack.nl/forum/index.php?topic=3563.msg45729#msg45729)

During the conflict between the two Ur-Quan, I think they forbid any race (thrall or
otherwise) near the battle area. They probably ordered the thralls away or
maybe the Ur-Quan leave them behind when they leave an area.

Well, generally, it's best to slave-shield them, actually, since they can revolt otherwise.

In SC1 the point can be kept as races like the Thraddash were kept behind to 'watch the front lines' so to speak, in SC2 however when the Kzer-Za brag about thousands of slave races, it's a plothole I think.

That's what I would do, slave shield and leave a few guards behind. You have no choice really, since your doctrine doesn't allow the extermination of any slave race.

The same way I assume the Kohr-Ah always leave a few ships behind waiting for intelligent life to re-evolve. After all, you can never be too sure

You're just tiptoeing around the issue it you really think "they slaveshield them after mopping up an area" is a valid answer. If *I* were a battle thrall so help me I would want to burn, loot and murder until the end of time and not be gyp'd out of that experience after a few decades go by.

Good thing you're not a battle thrall then. What exactly do you think the thralls can do about this though? Assume that the Kzer-Za conquer a quadrant. Now they have fallow slaves and thralls. The thralls have (probably) lost large parts of their fleets in combat, and are isolated from each other. The Kzer-Za should easily be able to pick them off one by one. Thus, instead of fighting independent races that can band together and warn each other, they are culling lambs.

Besides, at least for some races the Kzer-Za help upgrade their ships. If I improved the Ilwrath Avenger, I'd be sure to include a kill-switch for whenever those little dill-rats eventually lost it.

The Ur-Quan are certainly clever enough for that, it just strikes me as suboptimal to throw away so many assets. The other problem with this is that the Ur-Quan despise dishonest behavior. Are you sure their code of honor would even allow them to re-write the rules their slaves are under so suddenly just for the sake of expedience? That doesn't sound very Ur-Quan to me.

We don't know what the rules actually say.

Yep, for all we know, Slaves might get more free time than us :S.

Well we know that slaves get to decide their status by popular vote. Why would a species vote to be battle thralls if they're just going to end up being shielded anyway? Why help out the ones who conquered you if things will just end up being the same if you don't? If even limited autonomy is denied in the long run then there is no incentive to being a battle thrall. And the Ur-Quan don't seem to be the type to be deceptive about this since it conflicts with their philosophy (to lie is a sign of weakness).

The best explanation for the plothole would be that the Kzer-Za prefer to leave battle thralls in their local region of space and leave behind enough Dreadnoughts to support the infrastructure of their Hierarchy and to thwart slave revolts. This leaves the question of what those others are doing now that the Sa-Matra is destroyed and the Kohr-Ah death march ground to a halt.

After all, there's no point in letting battle thralls in a conquered region of space.
And I think they'd vote to be battle thralls, even if they were going to be slave-shielded after a while. At least, they get to be free a little longer.

I'm not sure if the explanation of "they slaveshield thralls when they're done with them" is a good one. It's possible, but the problem is that it seems dishonest, and the Kzer-za hate lying.

One plausible reason is that the Kzer-za usually do bring their thralls along, but didn't when they came to our region of space. Perhaps they expected to meet the Kohr-ah again soon, and felt that having a ton of thralls around would be too much baggage getting in the way of their second doctrinal war.

Another thing - SC1 not being entirely consistent with SC2 is hardly anything new. While SC1 is a good game, the story there really just exists as a backdrop for the action and strategy and to flesh out the alien races a little in the manual. I doubt they had thought of the Kohr-ah, the Dnyarri, the sentient milieu, the Thraddash, the history of the Syreen homeworld, or many other things when they made SC2. SC1 conflicts with SC2 in several places.

A few examples: it takes place 500 years later, most notably. The Spathi vs. Mmrnmhrm scenario is different from what the Spathi tell you happened in SC2. One scenario mentions "Ur-quan spies have finally found the Yehat homeworld", but we know from SC2 that the Ur-quan are definitely not the type for subterfuge, nor does SC2 give you any impression that the Yehat territory is hidden. There are several other things as well.

OK, can you give a possible way to keep those battle thralls in check so that they don't revolt, then?

Hmm.

You know how enemy races won't chase you outside of their sphere of influence? Maybe the Kzer-Za forbid their thralls from leaving their SOIs...

Just an idea.

Not bad, but they can still flee and rally with the SoIs of the other thralls (especially keeping in mind the slow speed of the Dreadnoughts; see Umgah clonking Mycon in the head). And keeping SoIs separated would reduce their strategic strength, also.

Though there are enough good methods (yet sophisticated) to keep thralls in check, for sure. For example, sinking their society into a very intricate bureaucracy to prevent any moves that don't come from the Ur-Quan.

As was mentioned in the thread that spawned this one, the Thrall contract was at least partly misunderstood by the Traddash, and the Kzer-Za stepped in. I find it quite plausible that the contract contains lots of things that all races might not understand, especially if they don't understand the Kzer-Za. For instance, the Thrall agreement might say something along the lines of "We agree to retain limited autonomy and fight for our masters during their conflicts in this region." So when there are no more conflicts in the region, the Kzer-Za think it is patently obvious that the next step is slave shielding. The Thralls might simply assume it means "You don't have to go to other quadrants and fight". The Kzer-Za might not be lying from their point of view. They might be spelling it out, but we're just too stupid to understand.

Like I said before, rounding up the Thralls would be fairly simple. During the Doctrinal conflict everyone is in lockdown, and the only reason it's failing is that the Kzer-Za have been gone too long. If they lock down all Thralls and then deal with them one by one, they should have no trouble. After all, the Kzer-Za fleet can outgun any Thrall.

Some people have raised the possibility of leaving a fleet behind to guard the thralls. I must say I think leaving a small group behind to check on Fallow slaves makes more sense. Less of a strain on your resources. And since the Kohr-Ah have to do the same, you'd still be on equal footing.

Actually, they let each race decide by their own usual methods.  We were a democratic government, and we chose by democratic vote.  The Spathi had it decided by their High Council, and the Yehat Queen decided for them.