The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

Salutations to all. I registered here quite a while ago, and I must confess that I haven't even been a lurker since then (0.008 posts-per-day average... postcount whore I ain't!  :P ), but a discussion thread on video game villains on another forum recently turned to everyone's favourite megalomaniacs, the Ur-Quan. As is my way, I ended up writing a fairly long tract on my own stance on their evil, and seeing as it was the fine fellows here developing The Ur-Quan Masters that introduced me to Star Control in the first place I thought that I'd dust my account down and share it with you. Enjoy!

THE UR-QUAN HEIRARCHY

Thwart them in: Star Control II

(http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/5411/urquan1jq4.jpg)

"...in addition, your ship does not respond to standard Heirarchy identification transmissions and is therefore deemed to be... independent. This is not permissible - only subservience will be tolerated..."

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One of the problems that has persistently dogged the depiction of alien races in fiction is the tendency towards anthropomorphism. While my own experience as a Warhammer 40,000 hobbyist and fluffist has left a great deal of frustration and exasperation in this regard (the claim that a concentration on the Imperium of Man is necessary due to the impossibility of authentically conveying alien natures smacks more of a lack of imagination than a dedication to narrative integrity), I'm willing to acknowledge a number of legitimate reasons for the trend. There are plenty of weird and remarkable human societies that have yet to be explored without needing to invoke gills and eye-stalks; television budgets can't always cover half-a-dozen gratuitous animatronic limbs for every being that steps into the captain's ready room. Nonetheless, even the vilest and most reprehensible xenogen whose visage has slithered into grotesque union from the fumes of the farthest, darkest reaches of the perilous stair in the abyssal void between the suns is somehow... tempered by his reliable possession of two legs and opposable thumbs. By making distant aberrations seem close and familiar, the effect is inevitably, however unintentionally, to similarly belittle the evil that they represent. Like someone playing behind a mask on a stage, he may give a compelling performance but there is still a dash of pantomine about the proceedings.

This problem, however, certainly cannot be said to weigh down Star Control II, a title belonging to the stable of  the quintissential 4X space adventures. Your traipsing about the galaxy in the name of the Alliance of Free Stars propogates the ideals of truth, justice and freedom but also brings the pleasure of genuine discovery of wealth of wonderful exoticism worthy of the Beagle. From muffin-men to unearthly glimmering crystals, from weird agglomerations of random geometry to coldly sentient magma plugs, genuine imagination has flourished in the rendition of the alien races of Star Control II and the broad remit bestowed by such a topic has been managed enthusiastically and inventively.

Yet as many explorers and adventurers have found oiut to their cost in this world alone, exoticism does not stand still to be admired and appreciated, and strife and grief lurks abroad as much as at home - and that unsettling characteristic is illustrated all too forcefully with the might of the Ur-Quan.

The Ur-Quan sternly advertise themselves as a threat to you before you've actually even met them - as you draw into orbit around Mother Earth, the first sign of life in the game that you encounter after a slow cruise through the empty outer reaches of the solar system is a tight, angry red dot that homes in on your vessel with unerring accuracy and rushing speed, a stark contrast to your ungainly ship which lurches about clumsily in a futile mockery of evasion. Anyone familiar with the quite hilarious pastiche of the space opera, Galaxy Quest, will immediately recall the scene:

"There's, uh, a red thingy... heading towards the green thingy... and, I think we're the green thingy"

Only now, you're the butt of the joke - and it's a sick one.

The Ur-Quan first impress themselves upon you as a singular feat of truly alien design - certainly nothing scrutable can be found in their bloated and imperturable annelid form - even their eyelids shut at odd angles to our own, and their departure from human experience is so absolute that they need another completely different being (the weird waddling brain shown in the screenshot) to do so much as facilitate communications with you! Your appreciation of the artistic design, however, is unsettled by the context - you're above Earth, a familiar land of friends, so why do these completely foreign creatures act as ambassadors, and why do they snarl at you as an "interloper"? From that very first encounter, the Ur-Quan slide down your appreciation as they become the vector which communicates to you the awful scale of the brave new world that you've drifted into.

When it comes to struggles with The Other, mankind is usually engaged in a valiant endeavour against invasion - a thorough, direct challenge, mettle against mettle and mind against mind across a clear battlefield where the lines, whether they be traced across the length of a single screen or a hundred stars, are nonetheless clearly defined. The Ur-Quan, however, promptly turn these comfortable conventions on their head - you're not only late for the war, you lost it, and a new order, one as alien as the being which confronts you with it, has arisen.

This is also no uncertain or unsettled character to this new order - there's no King Alfred burning cakes whilst he builds up support amongst the marshes or Hereward the Wake secure in his Fenland fastness - you're the only one who can fan the flames of freedom, and you're just one miniscule blinking pixel amongst an awfully large galaxy map. The Ur-Quan aren't Palpatine-analogues who've spawned a Galactic Empire which, for all of its overblown portentuousness, is a ramshackle and rickety construction riven with rebellion from its very inception; instead, their dominion truly dominates - their power is absolute. Return to the screenshot which introduced this post - "disobedience will be punished". No bold bravado of "defiance will result in your destruction!" or savagely grating threat of "a challenge will be met with extreme force!"... it's a coldly level statement of fact, and it's worded - 'obedience' - as a sterner sort of parent might discipline his child. When you finally encounter a fellow human soul, he doesn't announce himself as Commander Hayes of the Starship Enterprise, nor the United Earth Commonwealth Harbour Station, but rather the "slave planet Earth". Your splutters of surprise and perplexity are met by astonishment on his part that you could think anything different, and this only serves to ram home to you the terrible crushing might that the Ur-Quan have exerted. These creatures are foes to be reckoned with, and prising off the locked fingers of their iron fist will be no routine task. This sense of power in the prime antagonists is awesome and in many ways unique.

Due to various factors associated with the plot which I shall not reveal here in the interests of preserving spoilers (it is well worth the time to experience them yourself), you may actually not cross paths with the Ur-Quan again for literally years of game time, while your quest takes you to all manner of different alien societies. Yet this does not diminish the fearsome power of the Ur-Quan - as the game never opened with some easy victory against them for the sake of a tutorial session, there's no crack of fallibility in their monolithic presence to exploit - and no matter what race you encounter, whether they describe themselves as Fallow Slaves or Battle Thralls, all are always casting one eye back over their shoulders, ever filled with trepidation for the booming reverberations of their returning masters' tread. The Ur-Quan Heirarchy casts a long, dark shadow.

That shadow is deepened once you have the opportunity to understand the motors which drive the Ur-Quan on their long and endless road of destruction and subjugation. For much of their earlier game, they come across as straightforward megalomaniacs - unaturally effective and forceful ones, definitely, but at least playing to type in their ambition if not their realisation. A fuller understanding of the Ur-Quan character, though, brings with it revulsion at their utterly reprehensible nature and twisted hearts.

The Ur-Quan desire to ensure their species' freedom and preserve a hard-won liberty from a long age of enslavement. That hardly sounds terrible, right? No-one is keen on the idea of oppression in these enlightened days, surely? True - but the Ur-Quan's method of maintaining their own liberty is to deprive every other being in Creation of it! There are no redeeming qualities to their nature, and they are inherently no more than an organ for the propogation of violence - even from their most very primitive days they were the bottom of the food chain and fought their way to the top, all the while riven between themselves by their innately territorial nature as much as ravaged by their predators who found them tasty snacks. The period of interstellar slavery which defined modern Ur-Quan society might be expected to leave something of a chip on anyone's shoulders, but once it was over instead of dusting themselves down, celebrating a righteous victory with acclaim and aplomb and forging on to make a future for themselves the Ur-Quan are marooned in angst, imposing a defeat on themselves even at the point of salvation. The weird talking pet that the Ur-Quan speak through is an atrophied remnant of their old masters, and as much a sign of their fantastic power it's an open sore in the Ur-Quan character, and, ironically, a shackle slaving them to their consuming obsession. The Ur-Quan have coiled their wormlike forms around the memory of past suffering with a mordant masochistic misery - they're a pugnacious race, surly and sullenly screaming and shrieking against the very cosmos - so much so that they even formalise their colossal self-centred childish petulance into an overbearing formal dogma, ominously titled "The Path of Now and Forever".

One is reminded of jihadis wilfully galling themselves with wrongs over a millenium old to perpetuate the massacres of the present day.

But surely an advanced spacefaring race is not so... single-minded? Indeed, you'd be right - the Ur-Quan readily acknowledge that their philosophy could well be flawed - and so the faction that oppresses you, the Kzer-Za, perform ritualised battle with their estranged cousins, the Kohr-Ah, to determine whether their doctrine of galactic enslavement shall prevail... or the Kohr-Ah's vision of galactic extermination.

One expects meek submission to wormy might; the other expects you to be grateful for being killed so you can be reborn as an Ur-Quan. After all this, the Ur-Quan think that they're doing you a favour...!

If that's a joke, then no-one's laughing.

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Lord above, this consumed entire evenings. I almost felt like a slave to the Ur-Quan myself when writing it...! ;)

Actually, I sympathize.  They've had a long, hard, terrible history--the Dnyarri did unspeakable, unforgivable things to them--and I don't believe it left either of the subraces particularly sane.

They were very badly traumatized. It wasn't just years of enslavement that messed them up. They were also forced to kill the only race they had ever truly befriended and were wracked by the pain of an excruciator (you can tell from the way they talk about excruciators that the torture of using them had a lasting effect). When you talk to either type of Ur-quan after you get the Dnyarri, they are genuinely terrified. Even the manual says something like "most xenopsychologists think the Ur-quan once suffered a severe trauma..."

Also, the Kzer-za still have some humanity (I mean this in a figurative sense, of course) left in them. They genuinely fear for the future of the galaxy if the Kohr-ah win the war. They think of themselves as merciful protectors (mainly from the Kohr-ah, but also from other dangers).   There's a lot of dialogue that shows this. Just one of many examples:

Learning about their their past makes me and most other people who have played the game feel sorry for them. They are still ultimately an evil menace that must be stopped, but they are truly a tragic villain.

I don't remember them ever being the bottom of the food chain, unless figuratively; but that was only when the only two things on the proverbial food chain were them and the Dnyarri.

If you're speaking about the actual food chain (i.e. non-figuratively), heed this Melnorme quote:
Not necessarily the very bottom, indeed, but still down enough.

Not even the Kohr-Ah are evil - they too think that they are helping those they exterminate: they view non-Ur-Quan races as inferior and, as they say themselves, "Before we destroy other thinking beings we share with them this comforting fact: This life of yours... which shall end immediately following this statement, is but one of many lives you will live. Perhaps, in your next incarnation, you will be born an Ur-Quan.".
So they are in fact helping others to ascend, to become Ur-Quans.

The Kzer-Za just need to work on their marketing skills ("boon of slavery" doesn't sell it very well...) - their demands are pretty simple and generally quite attractive as a general idea.

They have much to learn from the Druuge.

I always enjoyed how the Kzer-Za and Kohr-Ah were not just two dimensional villains but had their (very deep) motivations for why they did what they did.

Towards the end of the game you can almost find yourself sympathizing with the Kzer-Za since, in a way, while subjugating your race they were also trying to protect you from the Kohr-Ah.

Call me crazy, but I almost started to *like* them at that point.  The Kohr-Ah had beaten them and they were the underdogs like you now.  They had been twisted, manipulated and mutilated in ways we cannot possibly hope to begin to understand, and yet in their own little way they were showing us mercy by not obliterating us outright.

I always imagined that, had the Captain sat quietly in Earth orbit and waited for a Kzer-Za vessel to come around, he would have been given the option for he and his crew to go peacefully down to the Earth's surface without trouble.  Of course he probably would have had to, in exchange, given away the information on where Unzervalt was, which would have ended up slave shielded as well (which it does anyway, but not because the Captain told anyone its position).  In other words, I always felt like the Kzer-Za would have given him an easy way out as long as he cooperated.  They did not seem very bloodthirsty except to those who openly opposed them.

*Clenches eyes shut and mutters to himself* I will not invoke Godwin's Law... I will NOT invoke Godwin's Law...!

Yeah exactly, its so easy to excuse evilness. I can foresee someone using this thread to justify the WWII holocaust. What is evil if it’s not doing bad stuff to innocent people? There is always a reason for doing bad stuff. Otherwise you might as well say there’s no such thing as evil. Clearly there is though otherwise there wouldn’t be word for it.

Just in case anyone was deluded to the contrary, the Ur-Quan may be complex but they are also EVIL. They kill and enslave innocents – which is bad. No, really it is.

The Druuge also are evil as they would gladly do mean stuff to people for economic gain (think McDonalds)
The Ilwrath are evil because the do mean stuff to people to appease their gods (think catholic inquisition)
The Kohr-Ah are evil because genocide is their favourite hobby (think khmer rouge).
The Umgah are a little bit evil because their practical jokes often result in very bad staff happening to other people (“big waves, big waves har har har”) (think that bastard at school who enjoyed inflicting pain at someone’s expense for his own entertainment – yes he was a little bit evil).
The VUX are a little bit evil because they are aggressive and imperialistic (any number of examples)

As endearing as some of these races are, they are still EVIL. There are reasons for their evilness, but nothing mitigates their evilness. The Ur-Quan are indeed villains.

See below: "Doing" evil does not mean "being" evil. Just as you must argue against one's beliefs, not against one's person.
Similarly, we are evil to the Ur-Quan because we have destroyed their Sa-Matra. But our intent wasn't to make the Ur-Quan suffer, but to protect other races. Intent is what matters.

Good reasoning, but the Ilwrath and Umgah are "psychologically programmed" to do evil; the Umgah are not capable of judging good and evil (they're like young children), for example that very quote with "big waves": for them it's just a good joke; the Ilwrath are a bit traumatized too, since they have "wrapped around" from their initial, strict, "good" religion. The Ur-Quan are mad, they're not mentally sane. The VUX and the Druuge are debatable - the Druuge really don't have excuses (the society?).
So, if someone does evil, (s)he is not necessarily evil. Only if you do evil on intent you are evil too. So the Druuge may be eligible, also the VUX.

Sorry, um, the Ilwarth wrapped around from good to what exactly? EVIL!  No excuses! They're evil.
I'm am not sure how you figure Umgah can develop hyperbiotechnology and starflight and not have the intellectual capaicty for morality. Have I missed something? where does it say they have the emotional capacity of a child?

I guess your arguement is that there's no such thing as being evil - only doing evil. Sounds very catholic - hey lets do all the evil we like, we can just say "oops sorry wont happen again" on our deathbed and then we wot be evil! . I would say that the more evil you do, the more evil you are.

Arg I need more hours of sleep me thinks.

Play in my melee tournament dammit - that goes for all of you!

Whee, Cedric has jumped on the slipperly slope of trying to use absolute morality! ;D

Let's put a bit of quantitative information in: what the SC2 races themselves say about evil.

The Chmmr Kohr-Ah Kzer-Za Melnorme Umgah say that the Dnyarri are evil.
The Dnyarri say that the Ur-Quan and Taalo are evil.
The Ilwrath say that they and their gods are evil.
The Pkunk say that the Ilwrath are evil.
The Spathi say that the Evil Ones are evil and Ultimate Evil is evil.
The Melnorme say that the Druuge are evil.
Tanaka calls you "Evil murderer" and "evil Ur-Quan pus-dogs."
The Yehat rebels call the Ur-Quan evil.
The Captain has the option to tell the Slylandro and Spathi that the Ur-Quan are evil.
The Captain has the option to call the Umgah and Spathi evil.
The Syreen call the Mycon evil.
The Utwig say that both kinds of Ur-Quan, especially the Kohr-Ah, are evil.
The Arilou say that the Dnyarri are "one of the most evil... as you judge evil."

Narrowing that list down a bit, and removing the less reliable sources:

Chmmr, Kohr-Ah, Kzer-Za, Melnorme, Umgah -> Dnyarri
Utwig, Yehat -> Ur-Quan
Pkunk, Ilwrath -> Ilwrath
Utwig -> Kohr-Ah
Melnorme -> Druuge
Syreen -> Mycon


I think the only ones we can say for absolutely certain are the Dnyarri and Ilwrath.

Woops forgot about the Dnyarri. I thought I'd jump off the fence for a change (I'm still agnostic though)

Let's see what the Groombridge God Paul Reiche III himself says about "evil" races:
[IRC1998]
<_Stilgar> <Spyhunter> Fwiffo: "How does an "Ultimate Evil" -race in an SC2 -style game behave when meeting the player?"
<Fwiffo> You mean the big carnivorous teddy bears on Spathiwa?
<Xxyl> I believe those were those "Evil Ones"
<_Stilgar> <Spyhunter> Fwiffo: "No, I mean the main enemy in the game. ;)"
<Fwiffo> Oh yeah. Well, I rarely paint someone as absolutely "evil" -- it's all a matter of perspective.  What is interesting is why people (aliens) do things that seem evil to you or me, and what prevents us from doing the same.
[/IRC1998]
You see, in his universe at least (if you want to extend the discussion to real life as well, I think that the Starbase Cafe is the right board for that - and to sum my views, doing evil is not the same as being evil: someone who doesn't do evil on purpose is not evil, and someone who wants to do evil but the circumstances don't permit him to do so IS evil), as long as you have a good motivation, you're not absolutely evil.

So, let's see.
The Ilwrath:
But `evil' is that which is morally bad or wrong. And if your actions are judged by your society as correct, aren't you, in fact, good?
Hmmm... We ARE All Evil.
We All Behave In A Mutually Agreed-Upon Fashion Of Murder, Torture, Deceit And So Forth.
Our Uniform Acceptance Of This Heinous Credo Creates An Orderly And Cooperative Society
Which Hardly Seems Evil.
Evil Is Doing Things That Make Others Hurt Or Fear.
We ALL Do That, Of Course.
But Since We ALL Do Such Things, As Sanctioned By Our Culture,
It Would Be `Bad' To Do Otherwise.
Which Means...
Er...
Puny Hu-Man, Do Not Play With Words! You Anger Both Dogar And Kazon! Now You Must Die!
Themselves they agree that their evil status is relative! They act in the way sanctioned by their society as right, and as such they are not evil, because they do what they believe is right!

In general:
"Evil" Star Control races are evil as a species, thus they are programmed to be evil. Individuals of those species can, however, be truly evil if they do evil on their own free will, not as a consequence of their nature.

There are multiple types of intellectual capacity. Advancing in one direction does not affect the other zones. They have the type of intelligence that allows them to develop "hyperbiotechnology" but they lack what a Human would deem a mature personality.

Heh. I had a feeling that the topic would go this way. These type of things always do.

Is it really so easy to pin down what is "evil" and what is "good"? I, for one, don't think so. It's a matter of perspective most of the time.

For example, are humans to be considered evil for what we did to the Androsynth? From the sounds of it, we did some horrible things to them, forcing them to flee Earth. Are we not villains, then, in their eyes?

How about siccing the Ilwrath and Thraddash on one another? It may be somewhat unintentional ("Seek new prey!" doesn't tell them specifically who to go after, but it does tell them to go after someone else), but we still caused the near annihilation of two entire sentient species. Genocide is an evil act regardless of who it's towards, isn't it?

To the Yehat Royalists, we've done something completely atrocious: we've started a huge civil war for them after they've had 2000 years of peace.

The VUX...we're not exactly kind to them, either. Sure, they hate us merely for our appearance, and seek to destroy us because of it. We find out that, insult or no, they still would've hated us. And yet...from as far as I can tell, humans are disgusted by the sight of the VUX as well, even though we should have gotten over such silly appearance-based prejudice long ago. Isn't prejudice evil?

How do we even know that the Captain was sincere when apologizing to them? Maybe he just liked bugging the ever-loving hell out of them. What about ZEX, who even the manual says "got what he deserved" through his violent death at the hands of the Beauty? Did he really deserve death?

Even near the end of the game, you have to do something morally questionable, but arguably needed. You have to have the Dnyarri invade the minds of the Kohr-Ah and Kzer-Za. The Dnyarri, who enslaved the Ur-Quan and forced them to kill friends and strangers alike. The Ur-Quan had to go through pain the likes of which you or I will never experience just to get away from them, and here you are, making them relive the nightmare.

This is all not even mentioning what we've done to our own people over the course of history.

Some of this behaviour is necessary or unavoidable, of course. But just because it is necessary, does that cancel out its “evilness”? After all, I’m sure the other races think the same thing about the way they act towards others.

Whose morality is right? Is it acceptable to force your views onto others who don’t understand them?

I am, of course, thinking too much about this. SC2 is only a game. Yet…can’t the same kind of questions be put to use in the real world?

For me, it’s dangerous to label people as “evil”. And even though SC2 is just a game, I can’t hate any of the aliens for what they do. I understand where they’re coming from, even though I don’t think they went about it in the right way.

Paul Reiche III was interviewed once and had an interesting take on the Ur-Quan and such. Let me see if I can find it again… Ah! Here, buried in this PDF! (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/media/issues/29/pdf/TheEscapist_29_final.pdf) :

The Captain has the option of being evil, but you are not required to pick those dialogue options. He also is forced to do evil at times, but as long as he doesn't do it for the sake of evil, but to assure the survival of all other sentient life, he is not evil himself.

Also, CeeVee:
From what you're saying, it seems that you think evil is completely relative? It's not so. An evil act is whatever makes someone (including you, though if you have to choose between your suffering and another person's suffering, you should choose yours, of course) suffer. An evil person is a person who commits evil acts (while having other alternatives) knowing that they're evil. However, an evil person is not evil in the same degree as its act, and is always redeemable, and also you can't tell if (s)he is actually evil or not only by seeing his/her actions, so you indeed shouldn't label persons as "evil", as you don't know if you're right.

Morally, he didn't deserve death. What the manual says is just a way of saying "he messed with dangerous creatures, his eventual death was certain" - think Steve Irwin. As to The Captain apologizing - his lines don't seem to sincere, indeed, especially that one with "reverse psychology".

Of course those humans who acted as slave masters to the Androsynth did evil. Certainly on purpose. Certainly they were evil.

The Captain went overboard when he found himself in the place of Dogar and Kazon. He is somewhat forgivable. As I've said, it's not how grave the evil deeds are, but how deep their effects on the evil doer are.

There are also good parts to the Yehat Rebellion - unity between the Yehat and the Pkunk and the overthrowing of the tyrant Queen and her cronies from the High Perch. Sometimes you have to fight for your ideals.

Err... the VUX started. We are merely replying in kind. We behave much more polite with Admiral ZEX... though it may be just for acquiring the Shofixti Maidens.

You HAVE to. It's, anyway, better than letting everybody die, isn't it?

Even if it is only temporary suffering, and even if it's good for them in the long run?


What if this person feels that they have to do such acts, even if they know deep down that the act itself is wrong? Are they still an evil person? The Ur-Quan feel that they have to go to such extreme lengths to keep themselves safe, even though they may not be sure their way is correct, thus the whole conflict between the two sub-races in the first place.

Certainly I don't think that either of their ideas were the way to go (although I'd much prefer the Kzer-Za's), but to paint them as completely evil for their choices even though they're most likely too psychologically (and possibly biochemically) damaged to make a proper decision seems...unfair at best.

What I'm trying to get across is that things don't just simply fall into "good" or "evil". There's a lot of gray area in between. Also, I don't think anyone thinks of themselves as being evil, except for the Ilwrath. Even they're quite confused on that front. ;)


That's how I usually choose to interpret it, but I dunno. The word "deserves" just doesn't sit right with me.


Why is he forgivable, but none the Hierarchy races are? This is the kind of question I'm asking towards those who see the Ur-Quan and battle thralls as nothing but pure evil. What is evil to those posters?

I'm not sure that I understand your last sentence.


Of course! It's just that the Royalists don't view it that way. The Captain is horrible to them because he just came barging in and filled the Rebels' heads with a bunch of nonsense and lead them into a war.

What would you guys think if the Yehat did the same thing to us? They would obviously be in the wrong, wouldn't they?


Heh! "The VUX started it!" That sounds like such a childish thing to say. Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but I laughed nevertheless.

But seriously, is it really mature, advanced, or right of us to do the exact same thing towards them?
"You're ugly as all hell!"
"NO U!"


Certainly! :D I like living. Living is good. The Ur-Quan are still going to hate you forever for letting the Dnyarri loose on them, though.

I guess what I'm trying to do is get people to see the other side of the conflict, and to think about why certain acts are wrong beyond "We're the protagonists of the game", "Well, we're humans and humans are always right in sci-fi", and "It's evil because I've always been taught that it is". That, and maybe help them see that these things can be a little more complicated than they seem to be at first.

Yes, even in a computer game from the early 90s.

Edit: Also, I love this previous thread on the nature of evil in SC2 (http://uqm.stack.nl/forum/index.php?topic=1789.0). Love it forever. It goes into much more depth than I ever could.

Now define suffering! ;D

I'm not a Royalist, or any Earthling parallel to that. The Royalists were more evil than the less loyal starship clans; if the Yehat came to Earth and set us in an inevitably successful revolution against our planet's corrupt upper classes, I would think that more good than evil.

To bring you on the same level as the Yehat Royalists, you'd have to think that the upper class was doing a really good job. You believe in them, and they're the good guys to you.

Then how would you feel, if someone caused doubt in them enough to start a rebellion?

That's what I ment, anyway. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. I'm working on that, really I am.

No, they're not doing a good job - they (turned my whole race over to the Ur-Quan). I want to believe in them, so I try not to think about it, but really I know that they are in the wrong. I can't stand the internal conflict, and when someone comes and makes me see things clearly, it's liberating.

I think I've answered this question when I've spoken about the Yehat Rebellion.

Of course. However, shades of gray are closer to either black or white. I mean, dark gray is much more similar to black than white.

I mean that any evil deed you do has an effect upon yourself, more than on the person on which you do it.
Evil deeds change your nature, turning you evil.

It's good that you laughed. On our subject again: I didn't say that it is right to do so. I said that we don't do like this normally. We feel free to say so because the VUX do, too.

Some bad things are better than other bad things.

Of course it is more complicated than it seems. However, you are right with "Well, we're humans and humans are always right in sci-fi". Indeed, sci-fi is (almost) always written so that the humans are always right, but that's a problem with those specific universes, I mean that the humans are indeed always right in sci-fi. Full stop. Everything is written so that humans take the place of the victim or the saviours.

Take a knife and cut a piece of your meat with it. This is physical suffering.
Force yourself not to talk for days on end, or walk naked in the public street and let everybody laugh at you. This is psychical suffering.
Try these things, and then, if you still don't know what suffering is... we'll see.

EDIT: This topic has deeply derailed. What about moving the last few posts in Off Topic?

Valaggar. Sheesh...

I asked for a definition. You are trying to give me the general idea. I already have that. General ideas are fine for obvious distinctions. Definitions are necessary for edge cases. Many of the situations in Star Control 2 are edge cases.

Your comment was not pertinent to this discussion. If you make another comment I would like it to be pertinent. Do you understand?

This would call for a definition of evil, not suffering. Suffering is obvious - suffering is anything you don't like.
Just show me the "edge case" suffering and I'll see.

What comment? I think all of them were pertinent to this discussion.

Yes.

Wrong again. You actually didn't understand what I was saying. Darn.

Anyway, edge cases of "suffering":
- being instantly vaporized.
- being forced to see things clearly when it's easier to remain ignorant.
- physical pain when you are detached enough that you can ignore it easily.
- physical pain when you're a masochist.
- being stopped from taking something you really really want.
- being stopped from taking something you really really want when it would only hurt you.
- hating something, regardless of the reason.

Ones that pertain to SC2:
- being instantly vaporized.
- being forced to see things clearly when it's easier to remain ignorant.
- having your race under an Oath of Fealty when it doesn't effect you personally.
- being mind-controlled when it means you get to hang out with Syreen.

Well, these are not suffering examples. You don't feel anything when you are instantly vaporized, you enjoy physical pain when you're a masochist, and so on.
They are edge cases for evil, not suffering.
So the definition of evil needs to be expanded.

For example:
- if you vaporize someone, you violate his right for life, taking someone's life (and not in self-defense)
- if you force someone to see things clearly when it's easier to remain ignorant, it depends - if this will actually help the person in the long run, good. If it will not, you're just making that person suffer, so it's not good
- physical pain when it can be easily ignored - regardless of the intensity, it's still pain, so suffering, so evil
- physical pain when you're a masochist - you are feeding the person's masochism, so it's not good.
- being stopped from taking something you really really want - the same thing as forcing someone to see things clearly: if it helps in the long run, it's good. Otherwise, it's not.
- hating something, regardless of the reason - you do evil to yourself, in this case, and an injustice to whatever you hate

None of them are?

I think the last one in the SC2 section is clearly suffering... well, whatever ::)

Well, then, I guess I just misjudged what the edge was for you;

how about:
- being provoked/insulted viciously
- having your best/favorite possessions stolen
- dead friend
- being told that your race has been conquered

These are clearly well inside the definition... However, I don't understand, why would the last SC one be considered suffering? You don't seem to experience any negative sensations due to mental compulsion, and hanging out with the Syreen is pleasant... OK, up to a point.

I simply can't comprehend what kind of a definition includes everything in my second list and nothing in my first list.

Yes, you do.

The humans who returned from the human/syreen crew exchange were clearly traumatized, as were the Umgah, certainly the Ur-Quan... in fact, I don't know of a single person/alien who was subject to mental compulsion in the Star Control universe who had the chance to complain afterwards and didn't.

In fact, it includes half of the things from your first list. When I wrote "Well, these are not suffering examples." I accidentally deleted "edge case suffering examples" or something like that, I suppose. Included are:
- being forced to see things clearly when it's easier to remain ignorant. (it is suffering, but not necessarily evil)
- physical pain when you are detached enough that you can ignore it easily.
- being stopped from taking something you really really want. (it is suffering, but not necessarily evil)
- being stopped from taking something you really really want when it would only hurt you. (it is suffering, but not necessarily evil)
Even the others, with a bit of extrapolation, can be interpreted as suffering, as they lead to suffering.

For easiness, here are the definitions (the first one is not complete):
1. An evil act is, generally, whatever makes someone (including you, though if you have to choose between your suffering and another person's suffering, you should choose yours, of course) suffer eventually (suffering with a good goal is not evil).
2. Suffering is anything you don't like.
3. An evil person is a person who commits evil acts while having other alternatives and while knowing that the acts are evil.

Okay, now I can criticize the definitions.
1. Far too broad. Any action that makes any difference to anyone is likely to lead to _some_ suffering (though potentally more good.) Also, this definition doesn't include instant vaporization of an entire race as evil (assuming the race hadn't been discovered by other races, so there was no one to care about them.)
2. Uh. It includes some ridiculous things; I don't like cell phones, therefore cell phones are suffering? Modified definition: "Suffering is anything that happens to you that you don't like." Well... I don't like you posting this valaggary material at me... but I wouldn't say being posted at in this manner constitutes suffering...

The correct spelling is "Valaggary", not "valaggary".
Also, it's not Valaggary. It doesn't fit any of the two definitions:
1. to overthink a simple premise (particularly pertaining to Star Control) - actually you are overthinking a simple premise by asking for a definition of evil
2. to exhibit enthusiasm in generous proportion to the value of a topic of discussion/issue (particularly pertaining to Star Control) - doesn't seem to fit.

Also, nobody forces you to reply if you don't like it. You're evil.  ;D

...wonderful way to not respond to a post. ::) Is it just me or have you gotten even more annoying since you put on that Utwig mask?

It's probably the voice. Turn the speech off. Buy more thrusters if you want to avoid me altogether.

At this point, I would like to draw a (very) loose parallel between the Ur-Quan and Gollum.  I mean, look at them:

*Started out ordinary, then discovered something of great evil that took control of and twisted them--both mentally and physically--and gave them a...
*Dual nature--although the Ur-Quan's two natures are very different from, and relate to each other differently than Gollum's
*Pitiable for what they are, though some don't (pity them, that is)
*Villains
*Guard something that must be destroyed


Eh?  Obviously there are differences (their goals, for one thing--and of course the Ur-Quan are much more sinister and started out less peaceful (and I think their story is rather more tragic)) but there are strong similarities, as well.