The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release => General UQM Discussion => Topic started by: Alexander Yoshi on January 07, 2003, 08:09:08 am



Title: Getting the Sun Device
Post by: Alexander Yoshi on January 07, 2003, 08:09:08 am
Can I still get the Sun Device after the Kor-ah have blasted the mycon homeworld?

-Alex


Title: Re: Getting the Sun Device
Post by: Scott on January 07, 2003, 08:57:41 am
The Kohr-Ah blast the Mycon's homeworld?


Title: Re: Getting the Sun Device
Post by: Captain Smith on January 07, 2003, 09:10:04 am
After the Kohr-Ah burn and destroy a race you can get whatever they had item-wise if you land on the planet that had it originally....a hint - the sun device wasn't at the Mycon homeworld.


Title: Re: Getting the Sun Device
Post by: Scott on January 07, 2003, 10:05:33 am
...the Kohr-Ah burn and destroy multiple races???


Title: Re: Getting the Sun Device
Post by: Captain Smith on January 07, 2003, 10:15:44 am
Yeah Scott, when they win their Doctrinal War, they go wipe out all the races on the screen.  If they get to Earth, your game is over.

The infamous time limit.  :o


Title: Re: Getting the Sun Device
Post by: Scott on January 07, 2003, 10:18:53 am
Jeebus, I've been playing this game forever and I didn't know that they ever DID win the Doctrinal War. The Ur-Quan probably should have, um, used all them there Battle Thralls, huh?


Title: Re: Getting the Sun Device
Post by: Captain Smith on January 07, 2003, 11:20:15 am
Yeah they win it (in the original anyway around 2159-2160 or so).  If you buy the ancient stories from the Melnorme, the Doctrinal War kind of has a "Ur-Quan's agreement" that they keep it to just them...

Speaking of the Melnorme, they foreshadow this time limit on the second visit (in the original) with the MetaChron speech.  Basically "MetaChrons are usually white, but mine is starting to turn gray.  When MetaChrons turn black it usually coincides with the destruction of the device.  We estimate it to happen in 2159 at the earliest so don't look for us then."

Hope that helps.  Not sure how it syncs up to the new version, but I'll find out soon enough.



Title: SPOILER: Doctrinal Poker Night
Post by: Dave Morse on January 07, 2003, 11:29:17 am
They only won the first time because they used the SaMatra.  Well, at least they used the SaMatra, I never heard that they would have lost without it, but on the other hand, the battle was allegedly pretty close even with it.

Afterwards the factions set out across the galaxy, enslaving and extinctifying.

They have both completed a 360 degree circuit when SC2 begins.  We know its 360 and not 180 because their old friends, the Chenjesu, are right were they left them.  But at the same time this is only the 2nd doctrinal war, not the third one.  So what happened when they met at the other side of the galaxy?  Doctrinal Poker Night?

And presumably all the sentient life forms in this quadrant of the galaxy are freshly evolved since the last time the Korh-Ah came through and scoured everything.  Right?


Title: Re: SPOILER: Doctrinal Poker Night
Post by: Captain Smith on January 07, 2003, 12:38:27 pm
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They have both completed a 360 degree circuit when SC2 begins.  We know its 360 and not 180 because their old friends, the Chenjesu, are right were they left them.  But at the same time this is only the 2nd doctrinal war, not the third one.  So what happened when they met at the other side of the galaxy?  Doctrinal Poker Night?

And presumably all the sentient life forms in this quadrant of the galaxy are freshly evolved since the last time the Korh-Ah came through and scoured everything.  Right?


Uh not exactly right, remember the Mael-Num were the ones who said the "Hold blabla bla" thing?  Pretty much it's accepted, even the great ones state the Mael-Num were/are the Melnorme.  We don't find their homeworlds or anything in the game (or for that matter the Ur-Quan homeworlds), so all those events must have happened on the other side of the universe.  If I recall, SC2 is the first game where the Kohr-Ah appear.  SC1 was about the war of the alliance against the hierarchy.  As far as the old Sentient Milieu goes, we only know of the Taalo homeworld in this area of the galaxy...

So what did they do on the other side of the universe?  The first Doctrinal War of course!  The Ur-Quan arrived from the top of the map and the Kohr-Ah arrived from the bottom side...

Just a little more talk about the SC storyline and canon....

;D


Title: Re: SPOILER: Doctrinal Poker Night
Post by: Krulle on January 07, 2003, 04:29:30 pm
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They only won the first time because they used the SaMatra.  Well, at least they used the SaMatra, I never heard that they would have lost without it, but on the other hand, the battle was allegedly pretty close even with it.

Afterwards the factions set out across the galaxy, enslaving and extinctifying.
Yes, the Kohr-Ah were winning the war, when the Kzer-Za by chance found the Sa-Matra. They used the Sa-Matra to defeat the Kohr-Ah.
After the Kzer-Za won they were not sure, if their way was the right one, so they send their brothers one way of the galaxy, and went the other way. He who needs more strength to go his way of enslaving/annihilating uses more recources on his way to the other side of the galaxy, were they both will meet. So they met here (the Kzer-Za came from the upepr left side of the map, enslaving the Thraddash, Umgah and Spathi, the Kohr-Ah came from the right side, annihilating the Burvixese and bareley scratching past the Druuge territory).
The first doctrinal war was after the revolt against the Dnyarri, so now this is the second doctrinal war. The winner will get a big trophy (translated into ur-quan: Sa-Matra) and the looser will stand aside and let the other go.

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They have both completed a 360 degree circuit when SC2 begins.  We know its 360 and not 180 because their old friends, the Chenjesu, are right were they left them.  But at the same time this is only the 2nd doctrinal war, not the third one.
The Chenjesu first learned of the arrival of the Ur-Quan Kzer-Za shortly before the hierarchy-alliance-war. They tell you so when you use the caster to talk to them at Procyon. They tell you of the danger the Ur-Quan propose to this quadrant and that they need the help of earth (told to you by Cmdr. Hayes)

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Uh, not exactly right, remember the Mael-Num were the ones who said the "Hold blabla bla" thing?  Pretty much it's accepted, even the great ones state the Mael-Num were/are the Melnorme.  We don't find their homeworlds or anything in the game (or for that matter the Ur-Quan homeworlds), so all those events must have happened on the other side of the universe.  If I recall, SC2 is the first game where the Kohr-Ah appear.  SC1 was about the war of the alliance against the hierarchy.  As far as the old Sentient Milieu goes, we only know of the Taalo homeworld in this area of the galaxy...
That's right! But that implies, that the Ur-Quan were a much larger race by that time (they annihilated the Taalo, and they were on the other side of the galaxy as well, when they revolted the Dnyarri. And the Ur-Quan were fighting all other sentient-milieu races as well, enslaving and annihilating them, if they've survived the Dnyarri. Either they were scattered across the universe, no more than a few hundred ships per quadrant, or they were a lot more of them.

BTW: why doesn't their spheres of influence get smaller and smaller by the time they fight each other?? They must have some rules to prevent each other from destroying each other.

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So what did they do on the other side of the universe?  The first Doctrinal War of course!  The Ur-Quan arrived from the top of the map and the Kohr-Ah arrived from the bottom side...
Then the Kohr-Ah would have destroyed the Yehat, VUX and Orz, not the Burvixese on the right side of the map (they passed the Druuge near enough, alas they didn't hit there).

CU, Krulle


Title: Re: SPOILER: Doctrinal Poker Night
Post by: Scott on January 07, 2003, 08:07:34 pm
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Then the Kohr-Ah would have destroyed the Yehat, VUX and Orz, not the Burvixese on the right side of the map (they passed the Druuge near enough, alas they didn't hit there).


Not to mention the fact that if they came from the top, they would have destroyed the Utwig and Supox.


Title: Re: SPOILER: Doctrinal Poker Night
Post by: Krulle on January 07, 2003, 08:15:07 pm
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Not to mention the fact that if they came from the top, they would have destroyed the Utwig and Supox.
That fits to the fact, that if the Kzer-Za came from the top, they would have enslaved these two. Imagine these hot-dog eaters under the red throbbing glow of a slave shield.
So accoring to me the arriving directions are from upper left (Kzer-Za) and lower right (Kohr-Ah) directions.


Title: Re: Getting the Sun Device
Post by: Death 999 on January 07, 2003, 09:45:00 pm
While it's clear that the Kohr-Ah came from the central right, the rest is not so clear.

Most of the SC1 Ur-Quan Hierarchy's homeworlds line up along a line from the galactic north of sol to the galactic east:
(Thraddash),Umgah, Spathi, Androsynth, VUX, Mycon (...? not their 'native' location, IIRC)
However, the Ilwrath Homeworld and their region of influence are to the galactic WEST, which is on the other side of the Alliance lines (stretching from northeast to southwest, then curling north again):
Arilou, Chenjesu/Mmrnhrm, Sol, Shofixti, Yehat, Syreen (now moved behind the hierarchy lines)

SO... either the Hierarchy has a really weird shape, or the Umgah pulled their Dogar and Kazon trick before SC1, thus luring the Ilwrath into the hierarchy without a military defeat being necessary.


Title: Re: Getting the Sun Device
Post by: Nic. on January 07, 2003, 10:14:58 pm
Y'all need to go to the Pages of Now & Forever (http://www.classicgaming.com/starcontrol/) and get a look at the maps that shipped with the original game.  The Ilwrath home stars are north of where their sphere of influence in the game lies, their sphere of influence is where it is because they are attacking the Pkunk.  They used to be anti-spinward (i.e., northwest) of Chenjesu space.

And in the game, when you ask the Starbase commander about what happened during the war, he lays it out pretty well, they came in, kicked ass along the left side of the starmap until they hit Chenjesu/Mrrnhrrm space, then turned spinward (i..e, southeast) and kicked more ass.


Title: Taalo==Chenjesu
Post by: David Morse on January 07, 2003, 11:22:26 pm
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The Chenjesu first learned of the arrival of the Ur-Quan Kzer-Za shortly before the hierarchy-alliance-war. They tell you so when you use the caster to talk to them at Procyon. They tell you of the danger the Ur-Quan propose to this quadrant and that they need the help of earth (told to you by Cmdr. Hayes)
The Chenjesu are the modern descendants of the Taalo.  Both the Korh-Ah and and Melnorme say that the Taalo were crystaline.  Therefore they knew the Ur-Quan for a long time.  Unfortunately had they stuck around the 1st doctrinal war for like 15 more minutes, they'd know they UrQuan had the Sa-Matra, and perhaps wouldn't have been so badly whipped during SC1.


Title: Re: Getting the Sun Device
Post by: Scott on January 08, 2003, 01:09:27 am
The Chenjesu aren't the Taalo. Commander Hayes talks about a Chenjesu researching the Taalo but couldn't because of the Androsynth being there.


Title: Re: Getting the Sun Device
Post by: David Morse on January 08, 2003, 11:11:45 am
Even if you are correct (maybe my memory is not perfect), and the Cheesejesu are not the desendants of the Taalo, then if they were trying to research them in Androsynth space, that ALSO proves that the Taalo were native to this side of the galaxy, and that the first doctrinal war was fought on this side, and therefore there is an unaccounted for "middle" doctrinal war on the other side of the galaxy.


Title: Taalo=|=Chenjesu
Post by: Krulle on January 08, 2003, 01:39:17 pm
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The Chenjesu are the modern descendants of the Taalo.  Both the Korh-Ah and and Melnorme say that the Taalo were crystaline.  Therefore they knew the Ur-Quan for a long time.  Unfortunately had they stuck around the 1st doctrinal war for like 15 more minutes, they'd know they UrQuan had the Sa-Matra, and perhaps wouldn't have been so badly whipped during SC1.
The Chenjesu are NOT the Taalo. The Taalo were wiped out (ask the ORz about that) by the slaves in trhe Dnyarri empire. And if they knew about the Sa-Matra, they would have fled this region of space to avoid being annihilated in combat.
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... they were trying to research them in Androsynth space, that ALSO proves that the Taalo were native to this side of the galaxy, and that the first doctrinal war was fought on this side, and therefore there is an unaccounted for "middle" doctrinal war on the other side of the galaxy.
That doesn't prove much. The sentient milieu was so big that they were spanning most of this galaxy (ask your favourite Trademaster, he'll be glad to sell the information). And the _only_ race from this region of space were the Taalo.


Title: Re: Getting the Sun Device
Post by: Casey on January 09, 2003, 10:22:02 pm
If the Sentient Milieu was that big, why were there so few races in it?  In just this quadrant of space, there are god-knows-how-many races, and the Kohr-Ah talk about exterminating thousands of them.  If the Milieu was so widespread as to reach from one side of the galaxy to the other, why is it that it only contained seven races?

Possible conclusions:

--The Sentient Milieu was very picky about who they accepted.  (If so, how did the Ur-Quan get in?)

--Since the days of the Milieu, a great many more races have taken to the stars, such as the Earthlings and Shofixti.

--The Sentient Milieu was located mostly in this region of space, which would cause a mysterious "missing" doctrinal war at the opposite side of the galaxy--at least presuming the Ur-Quan and Kohr-Ah hadn't missed each other entirely.

--The Taalo were actually NOT native to this region of space.  If I recall correctly, only the Orz give any suggestion that the Taalo homeworld is here--and they call it the Taalo *playground*.  The Orz also refer to the Taalo in the present tense.  Perhaps this is not where the Taalo came from, but where they fled to?


Title: Re: Getting the Sun Device
Post by: Death 999 on January 09, 2003, 10:43:56 pm
It may be that the Kohr-Ah were counting non-sentient races in the thousands. Though if they are, then the captain is probably responsible for more extinctions than the Kohr-Ah, what with the Melnorme bio-hunting.


Title: Re: Getting the Sun Device
Post by: Krulle on January 10, 2003, 11:26:15 am
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If the Sentient Milieu was that big, why were there so few races in it?  In just this quadrant of space, there are god-knows-how-many races, and the Kohr-Ah talk about exterminating thousands of them.  If the Milieu was so widespread as to reach from one side of the galaxy to the other, why is it that it only contained seven races?
Ask the melnorme. There were hundreds to thounsands of worlds and races in the Milieu. There were only seven races known to all members. (Like StarTrek: who knows all races of the Federation? Most know only the Vulcanians, the Humans plus 2 to 3 other races.)

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--The Taalo were actually NOT native to this region of space.  If I recall correctly, only the Orz give any suggestion that the Taalo homeworld is here--and they call it the Taalo *playground*.  The Orz also refer to the Taalo in the present tense.  Perhaps this is not where the Taalo came from, but where they fled to?
Your melnorme trade master sold you this information as well....