The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release => General UQM Discussion => Topic started by: Shiver on August 12, 2007, 11:13:01 pm



Title: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Shiver on August 12, 2007, 11:13:01 pm
Quite recently, myself and the other philosopher kings in #UQM-Arena started hollaring at each other (which we do often, thank you) over what each of the Star Control ships should truly cost to provide a fair and even playing field for every last one of them. A consensus was eventually reached on the matter, and shortly afterward Elvish Pillager did his hacker thing and made this.

Update: The latest build will say they are still 1.0.2 because EP is a klutz.

1.0.3 source code (http://eli.cedarswampstudios.org/balance-mod-1.0.3-src.tar.gz)

1.0.3 Windows build (http://koti.mbnet.fi/lonnberg/uqm-balanced-1.03-win32.zip)

Here are the lovely new prices:

  • 06 - Shofixti
  • 06 - Zoq-Fot-Pik
  • 06 - Umgah
  • 08 - Ilwrath
  • 10 - Supox
  • 12 - Earthling
  • 12 - VUX
  • 12 - Spathi
  • 14 - Arilou
  • 14 - Syreen
  • 14 - Pkunk
  • 14 - Mycon
  • 16 - Yehat
  • 18 - Slylandro
  • 18 - Ur-Quan
  • 20 - Druuge
  • 20 - Melnorme
  • 20 - Androsynth
  • 22 - Mmrnmhrm
  • 22 - Orz
  • 22 - Chenjesu
  • 22 - Utwig
  • 26 - Chmmr
  • 30 - Kohr-Ah
  • 200 - Thraddash

These prices are designed with veteran net melee players in mind. Casual players are better off sticking with the Star Control default values for the most part. Be assured that we know a lot more about these ships than you ever will and that any correction you try suggest to us will be laughed at before its immediate dismissal. However, we ourselves may decide something is rotten and change the prices accordingly at a later date.

The following players think this price list sure is swell:

  • Elvish Pillager
  • Shiver
  • Starfire
  • Captain Bob
  • SquisherX
  • Galactic



Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: meep-eep on August 12, 2007, 11:18:17 pm
Maybe you could include a list of the "Philosopher kings" who vouch for this list?


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: C. Bob on August 12, 2007, 11:32:54 pm
He means EP and himself.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Shiver on August 12, 2007, 11:46:36 pm
He means EP and himself.

2-3 of the ship scores (Supox was one of them I remember) are based upon things YOU suggested, but if you don't want credit for that I can pretend I thought them up.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: C. Bob on August 12, 2007, 11:58:27 pm
Two or three ships being based off of things I said at one point, out of twenty-five ships, is hardly a glorious accomplishment.

Especially since the overall plan for the modification conflicts with my personal view of the situation.

- Bob


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Cedric6014 on August 13, 2007, 07:38:01 am
How fun! It's a good start

I would guess that kohr-ah, Ur-Quan, chenjesu, Thraddash, supox, Umgah and spathi are undervalued
And that Androsynth is overvalued (slightly).

I'd be concerned that everyone will choose spathi and thraddash.Aafter duking it out with Amiga_Nut last night i realise remembered how awful those ships are to play agaisnt - especially if you only have an hour at your disposal...

I would also consider making the total points up to as close to the original (436?) as possible. That way the dynamics of a 200 point fleet don't change too much. Also consider the relative value of the andro is now more than perhaps you anticipated - considering that you devalued most of the others.

Looking forward to playing with a Windows mod and proving myself wrong though. At last i get to use a 'quan!


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: edmund on August 13, 2007, 08:28:19 am
Hi everyone, I have done a quick win32 build:

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~ejrh/temp/balance-mod-win32.zip

Hope it works.  I wasn't quite sure what revision it's based on, so I chose r2669.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Galactic on August 13, 2007, 09:11:14 am
Hi everyone, I have done a quick win32 build:

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~ejrh/temp/balance-mod-win32.zip

Hope it works.  I wasn't quite sure what revision it's based on, so I chose r2669.
Not Found


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Valaggar on August 13, 2007, 09:15:32 am
Use this link instead:
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~ejrh/balance-mod-win32.zip (http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~ejrh/balance-mod-win32.zip)

EDIT: Edmund, maybe it would be a good idea to make it a release, not debug, build?


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Elvish Pillager on August 13, 2007, 12:33:36 pm
I'd be concerned that everyone will choose spathi and thraddash.Aafter duking it out with Amiga_Nut last night i realise remembered how awful those ships are to play agaisnt - especially if you only have an hour at your disposal...
It depends how they play them. I've been playing Spathi a bunch recently (not seriously, of course) and I don't think the battles go on much longer than with any other ships. Thraddash is at the same point cost as before; we didn't even want to touch it.

Bad spathi players exist even without spathi being nearly worth it. Just yell at them and hope they learn.

I would also consider making the total points up to as close to the original (436?) as possible. That way the dynamics of a 200 point fleet don't change too much.
The total point cost now is 398. It's not that far off. Also, if we scaled up all the point costs, then teams with the more undercosted ships in the old setting would now be well more than 200 points, which I'm sure you'd agree changes the dynamics.

Looking forward to playing with a Windows mod and proving myself wrong though. At last i get to use a 'quan!


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: edmund on August 13, 2007, 01:21:54 pm
Heh, sorry about that Galactic. :-(

Valagger: it is now a release build.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Lurker on August 13, 2007, 02:33:29 pm
Will these prices be used in the tounaments or will we continue to use the original values?


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Elvish Pillager on August 13, 2007, 02:34:51 pm
Whoever runs the tournaments will decide that.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Shiver on August 13, 2007, 05:21:48 pm
The Pillow Fight newbie tournaments are going to be played with vanilla UQM always. Cedric may or may not run a tournament with the re-price mod. I don't know, you'd have to ask him.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Galactic on August 13, 2007, 07:19:22 pm
I do like these changes.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Cedric6014 on August 13, 2007, 10:11:20 pm
My tournaments and leagues will also be Vanilla for the time being. At the moment not everyone can play the mod (due to it not being available for all operating systems yet)

I think everyone should play with the mod where possible in casual play so we can refine it. Once it's perfected (or close enough to) I would like to use it for competition.

After a few weeks we could do a survey of folks to see which their top fleets are. If you survey around six good people and all 25 ships make it onto someone's fleet you know that you've improved the values. likewise if you see that a particular ship makes it onto everyone's team, perhaps it is overvalued. We'll give it time so people can remember how the f*** an ur-quan actually works.

I still feel quite strongly that the values should be revised upwards slightly to get the total as close as possible to 437. currently 200 pts buys you a couple extra ships. So with the current values, to keep the same kinds of fleets, tournament play would have fleets capped at 182 pts - which it not a very nice number. I like nice numbers! And new results would be out of sinc with old results.





Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: guesst on August 14, 2007, 05:04:44 pm
Heh, this prompts an interesting idea. What if ship prices were based on some free market model, ie the ships price is based on it's popularity? My ideas on implimentation of the actucal mechanics of the system I won't go into since for the most part i's purely hypothetical, perhaps requiring a reworking of the entire game's paradgm.

But still, I think a free market pricing system is an intriguing idea. I wonder how that would affect pricing?

And don't tell me that's what this is. This is what a few expert players think, not the "average" player.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Elvish Pillager on August 14, 2007, 05:39:55 pm
It's been proposed many times before. It would be interesting, but it certainly wouldn't balance the ships.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: AngusThermopyle on August 14, 2007, 05:52:21 pm
guesst, the problem with the free market approach is you introduce the possibility of artificial inflation.

I’ll illustrate my point with an example:
Let’s say Cedric is really nasty with the Zoq-Fot and routinely annihilates half of my fleet with it. Since I know the Zoq-Fot is particularly nasty in his hands, I’ll choose a Zoq-Fot every chance I get (regardless of whether or not I’m any good with it) to raise its popularity (ie demand) and spike the price. Now whenever Cedric goes to pick a Zoq-Fot, he’s going to have to pay more for it because of my meddling.

I think the method of consensus is sound. However, its going to take some rigorous playtesting to settle on some of the values.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: chenjesummrnmhrm on August 16, 2007, 01:25:16 am
Maybe it should be something like the free-market model, but instead, it should be how often someone destroys another ship with said ship, not how often the ship is picked.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: guesst on August 16, 2007, 01:45:42 am
guesst, the problem with the free market approach is you introduce the possibility of artificial inflation.
I think there are alot of problems with this approach. Artifical inflation is only one of them, especally with, esentally, unlimited resources, like the current Super Melee model.

The idea of making a ships price depend on its success rate has merit. There's alot of posibilities for addressing this possibility. However, in the end, the scope of a free market system is beyond this little game's range.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Shiver on August 16, 2007, 03:11:31 am
Philosopher King Update:

Altered ship costs alone aren't enough to get Super Melee balanced the right way. For instance, high level player-versus-player games still favor Kohr-Ah as the best ship and Utwig as the only reliable counter to it. If you ratchet up the price of one, the other becomes stronger. If you heavily penalize both simultaneously, you may as well just remove both ships from the game. Instead of doing this, our resident modder is attempting to tweak Yehat so that it functions as a sort of "soft counter" to Kohr-Ah in the same way Druuge is a threat to Chmmr, but not an end-all solution. This would weaken Kohr-Ah and allows players to not lean so heavily on Utwig if they want to stand up to it. Some interesting changes are being applied to Ilwrath and Ur-Quan to make them effective as well.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Cedric6014 on August 16, 2007, 08:14:55 am
While you';re at it you might consider modding the thraddash so that the afterburner doesn't shoot it across the screen, it just leaves a trail of fire. It would just travel at its normal speed. That's my cunning plan to make the thraddash more fun to play against


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Amiga_Nut on August 16, 2007, 03:23:27 pm
(-) On that idea.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: AngusThermopyle on August 16, 2007, 07:47:36 pm
I, for one, am NOT in favor of any sort of tactical changes to any of the 25 ships.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Elvish Pillager on August 16, 2007, 07:56:30 pm
Angus, what extent of changes do you refer to by "tactical changes"?


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: AngusThermopyle on August 16, 2007, 08:41:41 pm
Elvish, what I mean is I do not want to see any combat abilities changed. This includes, but not limited to:

  • Damage
  • Crew
  • Top speed
  • Acceleration
  • Turning
  • Battery size
  • Battery regeneration
  • Special abilities

Call me a purist, but I think that any tactical change is too great of a fundamental change. These sort of changes, IMO, are best suited for a more novel modification, such as your Crazy Mod.

I’m all for tweaking ship prices for the sake of balance. I think this will eventually lead to a better and more interesting online melee experience. However, I also think it will take a good deal of time to iron things out (weeks, if not months).


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Elvish Pillager on August 16, 2007, 09:51:29 pm
Call me a purist
Purist! 8)


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Cedric6014 on August 16, 2007, 10:12:13 pm
I agree with Angus

I'm not in favour of using modified ships in any formal or semi-formal capacity. MAYBE the thraddash with my suggetion below - nothing else. I say this because effectively Thraddash aren't used anyway at present (at least not by reasonable people). I think adjusting costs is worth while though and mroe can be done to refine that.

I think all the ships are sweet apart from the dreaded Thraddash. And I guess some some particular match-ups are a pain in the ass too but theres not much you cando about that.

Otherwise, mods are fun - more power to them




Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Elvish Pillager on August 16, 2007, 10:31:41 pm
Our problem, as stated by Shiver above, is that it's not really possible to create a balanced set of costs for the ships through cost changing alone. With balanced costs, all ships would be pretty similar in desirability for your team (although there'd certainly be teams that are better than others) - There wouldn't be any "must pick" or "must not pick" ships.

However, with the current costs, Utwig is a must pick - otherwise your team can be decimated by Kohr-Ah. If we raise Kohr-Ah to a price worthy of the damage it does to an Utwig-less fleet, then Utwig is no longer a must pick, but Kohr-Ah is a must not pick because it will be dominated if the opponent happens to bring an Utwig. If we then increase the price of Utwig to where it would be less than overpowered against Kohr-Ah, then Kohr-Ah is a decent pick again but Utwig isn't, since it would then be underpowered against everything but Kohr-Ah.

It's like we're trying to balance Rock, Paper, Scissors. Utwig > Kohr-Ah > everything else > Utwig.

Another ship that it's impossible to balance for is the Pkunk. Do we cost it as if it never revives, or as if it revives 10 times? Jeez! I would very much like to fly a Pkunk that doesn't vary in worth between about 12 and about 24.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Shiver on August 16, 2007, 11:03:41 pm
You guys are aware that the ship changes we're making are subtle, right? The Ur-Quan's fighters stopped crashing into asteroids. Oh no, better call the core team -- we're commiting blasphemy.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Elvish Pillager on August 16, 2007, 11:41:47 pm
By the way, make sure not to miss my latest post! ;)

(It's just around the corner, on page 2.)


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Cedric6014 on August 17, 2007, 02:10:13 am
Shiver you are really are trying to pick a fight arent you. Noone is arguing as far as I can see, just offering perspectives. I for one wont be making any judgements on any mods. I'm also looking forward to playing what ever mods you come up with. However i wont be interested in using them for any competitons that i run without some really robust debate about the merits of each change.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: guesst on August 17, 2007, 03:57:15 am
Ha, I get to be the purist of the purists because this whole conversation just confirms my belief in the superioity of SC1 with it's well balanced ships, none of them were overpowered at all, all of them worked as a part of a team. (A-Team?) Ship cost acurately represented what you could expect when you played a game. There was a SC1 full game that pitted 6 shofixti fighters versus one Ur-Quan. It was a fair fight in the strategy of SC1's full game. (In SC2's super melee, naturally, the Ur-Quan doesn't stand a chance in that match up.)

Of course, when you take the teams apart and the ship out of their context in that team there suddenly crop up conversations about wanting to tweak SC1 ship abilities (http://uqm.stack.nl/forum/index.php?topic=3811.0) that eventually degrade into a nerdfest of funny song trivia. Plus SC2 ships could be designed without relevance to their affect in a team so you get these overpowered monsters and randomly regenerating things and suddenly ship cost becomes a nebulus thing.

That's why I still play SC1 and am hoping for the UQM team to do a remake of it.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Elvish Pillager on August 17, 2007, 12:33:56 pm
Ha, I get to be the purist of the purists because this whole conversation just confirms my belief in the superioity of SC1 with it's well balanced ships,
SC1 ships were NOT well balanced!
none of them were overpowered at all
Uh huh. Mmrnmhrm were just as overpowered in SC1 strategic mode as they are in SC2 melee.
There was a SC1 full game that pitted 6 shofixti fighters versus one Ur-Quan. It was a fair fight in the strategy of SC1's full game. (In SC2's super melee, naturally, the Ur-Quan doesn't stand a chance in that match up.)
Naturally, I am able to utterly dominate the AI in either side of that matchup. Between human players, I daresay it would be pretty even.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: SquisherX on August 17, 2007, 10:17:43 pm
Its been a while since I've posted.  Here are my thoughts (without playing the mod yet).

I think there are some minor problems with the values - However, I do believe it is an improvement over the originals.  Kudos to the work.

In regards to the topic of the Kohr-Ah and Utwig:  I believe that the earthling + yehat at 28 points is a very formidable counter to the Kohr-Ah.  As such, I do not believe that the values need tweaking until It has been shown the new values cannot compete at a cost level to the Kohr. 


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Elvish Pillager on August 17, 2007, 10:38:50 pm
I believe that the earthling + yehat at 28 points is a very formidable counter to the Kohr-Ah.
A far from guaranteed win at nearly the same total point cost? You're better off with Chmmr.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: AngusThermopyle on August 18, 2007, 01:09:46 am
I think you've got the right idea, SquisherX. The lower costs of many of the ships allow for an interesting array of combination-counters.

Sure, there are no guarantees. But who's to say the Yehat pilot might have a good day and take down the Korh-Ah with no help? With the original values, this wasn't really a even a possibility, as the Yehat was too prohibitively expensive to risk taking.

I think we're going to see some interesting combination experiments as a result of this.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Elvish Pillager on August 18, 2007, 01:38:45 am
But who's to say the Yehat pilot might have a good day and take down the Korh-Ah with no help?
The guy piloting the Kohr-Ah, of course, assuming he's good enough. :P


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: guesst on August 18, 2007, 04:46:50 pm
Ha, I get to be the purist of the purists because this whole conversation just confirms my belief in the superioity of SC1 with it's well balanced ships,
SC1 ships were NOT well balanced!
none of them were overpowered at all
Uh huh. Mmrnmhrm were just as overpowered in SC1 strategic mode as they are in SC2 melee.
There was a SC1 full game that pitted 6 shofixti fighters versus one Ur-Quan. It was a fair fight in the strategy of SC1's full game. (In SC2's super melee, naturally, the Ur-Quan doesn't stand a chance in that match up.)
Naturally, I am able to utterly dominate the AI in either side of that matchup. Between human players, I daresay it would be pretty even.
*laf* I'm glad someone felt to tear apart my arugment.

SC1 ships weren't balanced, but SC1 teams were... mostly. Granted the Mmrnmhrm were given by pillbox dieties, but the Spathi were also surprisingly valuable for the price.

The way I judge the balance of SC1 is that i could win against the AI with either team in any given scenario. Now with two human players, well, that's the sort of thing that will have to wait until UQM-1 comes out and we get to play the game networked.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Elvish Pillager on August 18, 2007, 05:12:46 pm
SC1 ships weren't balanced, but SC1 teams were... mostly. Granted the Mmrnmhrm were given by pillbox dieties, but the Shofixti were also surprisingly valuable for the price.
Funny how you should mention two ships on the same team. Incidentally, the Alliance is the more overpowered team.

The way I judge the balance of SC1 is that i could win against the AI with either team in any given scenario.
Well, so could I, although the one where you only get Androsynth and Mycon against AI Arilou as the Hierarchy was awfully difficult. Other than that scenario, I could always pwn everything with Mmrnmhrm as the alliance or Ur-Quan as the hierarchy.

Considering that Ur-Quan cost lots more, and that UQM netplay has shown that Mmrnmhrm are overpowered and Ur-Quan are pretty bad, I'd say that the Alliance has even more of an advantage between human players.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Cedric6014 on August 18, 2007, 10:31:29 pm
Good job for making the effort to spell mmrhnmhrm properly guys! two thumbs up


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: guesst on August 19, 2007, 07:12:21 pm
SC1 ships weren't balanced, but SC1 teams were... mostly. Granted the Mmrnmhrm were given by pillbox dieties, but the Shofixti were also surprisingly valuable for the price.
Funny how you should mention two ships on the same team. Incidentally, the Alliance is the more overpowered team.
I meant Spathi! I'll fix the original post.

Quote
Considering that Ur-Quan cost lots more, and that UQM netplay has shown that Mmrnmhrm are overpowered and Ur-Quan are pretty bad, I'd say that the Alliance has even more of an advantage between human players.
We'll never know unless someone makes UQM-1 (That's a negative 1 there). Actually I suppose we could just have a UQM tournament where it's old alliance vs old heirchy only. I wonder how that would turn out?

What scenario are you talking about with one arloo against a Mycon and Androsynth? I'm gonna have to go back and check that one out.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: ScwyciDraig on August 19, 2007, 08:25:41 pm
Maybe I'm just utterly terrible at them, but why was the Probe's price increased? Everyone I've ever played against (a fair smattering of only three different people, admittedly) has never managed to take down a roughly equally priced ship (Melnorme, Spathi, Mmrnmhrm) with it.

I'd put their price at about 12, maybe 14. That is, unless I'm missing some immensely useful tactic or something. Which I may well be, being a mere mortal and not a Philosopher King. ;)


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Shiver on August 19, 2007, 09:57:55 pm
Maybe I'm just utterly terrible at them, but why was the Probe's price increased? Everyone I've ever played against (a fair smattering of only three different people, admittedly) has never managed to take down a roughly equally priced ship (Melnorme, Spathi, Mmrnmhrm) with it.

I'd put their price at about 12, maybe 14. That is, unless I'm missing some immensely useful tactic or something. Which I may well be, being a mere mortal and not a Philosopher King. ;)

Slylandro regularly flattens Melnorme and Spathi between decent players and is an all around terror to play against in general.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Elvish Pillager on August 19, 2007, 11:14:32 pm
It's also a hard counter to Syreen, and if you play it right, is one of the cheapest ships that mauls the ever-nasty Androsynth.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: starfire on August 19, 2007, 11:26:53 pm
Perhaps the balanced version could be modded to log game results and dump them to a file? The log could show, at least, which ships were picked in what order, who won and how many crew the victor had left. If we accumulated logging data this way and analyzed it, we might be able to see which ships are overpowered or underpowered and perhaps tweak the point costs more.

Druuge probably needs to be a bit more expensive, it's a no-brainer pick for 16 points.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Elvish Pillager on September 16, 2007, 11:25:32 pm
LOLZ two new versions released in one post!

Kohr-Ah 30 -> 32
Chmmr 30 -> 28
Ur-Quan 20 -> 18
Druuge 16 -> 18
Mycon 16 -> 14

Mmrnmhrm bug/exploit fixed.

UQM balance mod 1.0.1 source code (http://eli.cedarswampstudios.org/balance-mod-1.0.1-src.tar.gz)

Thraddash 10 -> 200
Chmmr 28 -> 26
Kohr-Ah 32 -> 30
Utwig 22 -> 24

UQM balance mod 1.0.2 source code (http://eli.cedarswampstudios.org/balance-mod-1.0.2-src.tar.gz)


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Shiver on September 16, 2007, 11:27:02 pm
Any time now, Valaggar or edmund...


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Valaggar on September 21, 2007, 02:44:29 pm
Oookay, I'm really sorry that I didn't post this earlier, but I couldn't get UQM to compile in MSVC, though I did compile it in MinGW. I hoped someone would post a MSVC-compiled executable here, so... enough talking, go&dl the Windows binary here (http://www.mediafire.com/?cxxvy9geeeb). I truly hope, for your sake, that this delay has not made your day worse than mine, although this really isn't saying that much.  :'(

PS: And Elvish, just because it worked this time, don't assume that clever schemes such as posting "Hey schmuck, get over here and compile our price mod for Windows." in SF vs SC threads are guaranteed to determine me to do your bidding ;D

EDIT: Forgot to upload the file!!!!!!


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: chenjesummrnmhrm on September 30, 2007, 06:28:58 am
My awesome new team is going to consist of:





1 Thraddash


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Terrell on October 20, 2007, 07:32:18 am
200 points for ANY ship in UQM is overvalued.  Is that value intended as a defacto ban on using Torches?


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Shiver on October 20, 2007, 08:31:45 am
200 points for ANY ship in UQM is overvalued.  Is that value intended as a defacto ban on using Torches?

Yes. The ship is impossible to balance without modding it into a different ship entirely. If you want to use Thraddash, there's always vanilla.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Terrell on October 20, 2007, 09:26:17 am
200 points for ANY ship in UQM is overvalued.  Is that value intended as a defacto ban on using Torches?

Yes. The ship is impossible to balance without modding it into a different ship entirely. If you want to use Thraddash, there's always vanilla.

What's wrong with it the way it is?


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: C. Bob on October 20, 2007, 10:57:19 am
The ship is designed solely for a borefest.

The afterburner flames doesn't work on anything except maybe Druuge; everyone else can just avoid it by standing still, since there's no need for them to choose to fly into Thraddash flames.

The main gun is only marginally better than Shofixti's, which is one of the weakest and most pointless weapons in the game.

As the afterburner itself and the relatively long range of the gun rewards long-range combat and hit-and-run attacks, every fight with Thraddash will take forever, even ones where it's cut-and-dry who will ultimately win, like Thraddash/Earthling or Thraddash/Shofixti.

As a result, most people avoid playing them altogether, because fights with Thraddash tend to be that bad.

The Spathi aren't comparable because their maximum speed, while pretty nice, isn't faster than basically everything else, plus they have to close in and fight at relatively close ranges to use their missiles.

Shofixti and ZFP aren't comparable because in both cases, they're optimized for close-combat, with weapons that do more immediate damage than most Torches could do in a long battle. The ZFP minigun is stronger than the Shofixti cannon, but the tongue is weaker than the Glory Device to compensate. Since the only thing that the Thraddash Torch has that could be likened to those two things is the afterburner, which people have to deliberately choose to take damage from, then the only use of the Torch is at long-range, taking off crack-shots, most of which miss, from the main blaster and using the afterburner to run away/shield itself from missiles whenever necessary.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Shiver on October 20, 2007, 11:11:17 am
No matter how many arguments are made, I think it's going to take something more to prove that Thraddash is a blight upon net melee. This calls for another FRAPS video. I'll see when I can find time for this...


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Elvish Pillager on October 20, 2007, 07:18:27 pm
We need a new Windows binary for 1.0.2. Valaggar's has Yehat at 16 points and if you play Yehat, the game goes out of sync.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Shiver on October 20, 2007, 09:29:41 pm
Now wait a minute. Weren't we going to bump up the VUX price, lower the Utwig price or do both before asking someone to recompile another binary?


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Elvish Pillager on October 20, 2007, 09:42:48 pm
Before we can do that, we have to agree on any changes. Which we haven't yet. If we get someone to compile 1.0.2 properly, then at least it'll be possible to play with the rebalanced prices.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: lakota.james on October 28, 2007, 09:39:26 pm
Pkunk caused a game crash with me and EP.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Elvish Pillager on October 29, 2007, 12:18:06 am
...when we played with me using the "real" 1.0.2 and lakota using the broken Valaggaric one. (If you're going to even make a post, it's best to specify these things...)

Please note, Pkunk has increased from 14 to 16 points somehow without it making it into the changelog. This change is, notably, not reflected in Valaggar's "build". In fact, I doubt if he even downloaded the source I posted.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: lakota.james on October 29, 2007, 01:28:25 am
(If you're going to even make a post, it's best to specify these things...)
or i could let you do it.  ;D


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: chenjesummrnmhrm on October 29, 2007, 09:15:23 am
Another ship that it's impossible to balance for is the Pkunk. Do we cost it as if it never revives, or as if it revives 10 times? Jeez! I would very much like to fly a Pkunk that doesn't vary in worth between about 12 and about 24.

Well, given a 1/2 probability of reviving each time, it should be 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8... which eventually comes out to one, multiplied by the proportion of ships that can't beat it without taking damage against all ships (Pkunk v. Pkunk excluded).  This is exactly 3/4.  So, in your price mod, the ideal pkunk should revive .75 times.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Elvish Pillager on November 24, 2007, 01:36:42 am
New version! Only a few changes.

Druuge 18 -> 20
Utwig 24 -> 22
and I don't know what Yehat was before but anyway it's 16 now.

Source: http://eli.cedarswampstudios.org/balance-mod-1.0.3-src.tar.gz

Hopefully someone sane will compile a windows binary for us.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Valaggar Redux on November 24, 2007, 09:50:28 am
I don't know what causes those problems, but I have downloaded the 1.0.2 source and I'm sure I have properly compiled it ("properly" meaning "following all instructions on Novus' help page (http://koti.mbnet.fi/lonnberg/MinGWUQM.txt)"). I see the only problem is the loss of synchronization with certain ships in netplay. That Yehat has 16 points is exactly as it should be, as you would be convinced if only you would make the huuuge effort of checking your own mod's code.

Moreover, Yehat vs Yehat and Yehat vs Pkunk worked perfectly on my network. No OOS. If there ever was a real loss in synchronization and not just EP willingly disconnecting to discredit me, then it wasn't due to me improperly compiling the mod, anyway, and probably not due to a bug introduced by fixing the Mmrnmhrm exploit either. Though, I tested a Win32-Valaggar-binary vs Win32-Valaggar-binary game, not a Win32-Valaggar-binary vs Linux-binary game... it might be that only the latter goes OOS. Why? Maybe Novus' help page misses something.

As to a 1.0.3 Win32 binary, the Twin Gods (Blessed Be Their Holy Names) art merciful, and hath commanded me to help you regardless of your past sins, but thou needst to wait for http://eli.cedarswampstudios.org to come back online, for it giveth me a HTTP 404.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Novus on November 24, 2007, 04:14:51 pm
Though, I tested a Win32-Valaggar-binary vs Win32-Valaggar-binary game, not a Win32-Valaggar-binary vs Linux-binary game... it might be that only the latter goes OOS. Why? Maybe Novus' help page misses something.
I haven't noticed any netplay problems (even between operating systems) with normal UQM SVN (and homegrown binaries), so I'd check for slight differences in patched gameplay code. Another possibility is that there's stuff left over from an older version of the mod in your build environment, in which case a quick "./build.sh uqm clean" and recompile would probably be a good idea. The UQM build system is supposed to notice changes to the source and recompile as required, but the structure of C (with include files and such) makes it a bit hard to get this consistently right without restarting compilation from scratch.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Elvish Pillager on November 24, 2007, 07:39:08 pm
Either I, my filesystem, or my C++ compiler have had a lapse of sanity. As far as I can tell, my build of 1.0.2 represents a state of the source code that not only was incorrect, but also never existed. Which, if it made any sense, would explain why it went out of sync with Valaggar's build.

I'd apologize to Valaggar but that would be pointless (he left, after all.) ::)


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Novus on November 25, 2007, 05:46:18 pm
Version 1.03 as patch (http://koti.mbnet.fi/lonnberg/uqm-balanced-1.03.patch) and Win32 binary (zipped) (http://koti.mbnet.fi/lonnberg/uqm-balanced-1.03-win32.zip). Only cursory testing has been done and I have no idea what the library dependencies are (probably the same as for Valaggar's builds).


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Shiver on November 26, 2007, 12:38:16 am
The changes are all present, but the program itself still says it's 1.0.2 while running.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Elvish Pillager on November 26, 2007, 03:08:44 am
Doh! forgot to change the version number... :(

Hardly worth making Novus recompile over, though, unless we go and decide that these are the ultimate perfectly balanced values and we aren't going to change anything, which isn't particularly likely.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: psydev on November 30, 2007, 10:32:07 am
OK, I know that there are people who don't want to see any changes to SC2's game tactics. I understand this. I think this is by and large a reasonable position. Conservatism is the proper approach to changing this game, in my opinion.

However, there is one mod I would like to see in this game, that I think wouldn't be too egregious an offense, even for the purists:
- Modify Earthling Cruiser poind-defense laser to 3 or even 2 energy points instead of from 4.

At the moment, the maximum damage an Earthling can do with its full energy (18) is launch two missiles (9 energy each) that do 4 damage each, for a total of 8 damage (or 2.25 energy per unit damage). Currently the laser (4 fuel for 1 damage) costs 4 energy per unit damage. It can do a maximum or 5 damage on a full tank (it recharges enough to let there be +1 shot) with the PDL. However, in practice one is rarely close enough to an enemy ship for long enough to get many shots on. Either the ship moves away, the ship quickly destroys you (e.g. ur-quan) or you didn't have enough fuel to start with in the first place to get many shots off.
 
   When a ship comes close to the Earthling, the Earthling is more or less screwed. The point defense laser can damage an opponent, but it's basically pointless--usually it's better to save up the enregy for a close-range nuke. Let's face it, the Earthling is slow and its weapons relatively weak. Once a reasonably large ship closes in on it, it's usually game over. It would be good, I think, to make the Earthling at least do some better-than-trivial damage with its laser in its final death throes. At this point, the earth's laser is pretty much good for nothing. Of its uses, I can think:
 - Killing Ur-Quan Fighters
 - Zapping Limpets
 - Hurting or killing, if lucky, an Arilou (only after extreme damage)
 - Zapping outgoing crew that Syreen calls
 - Destroying asteroids when you're in a gravity whip
 
   The PDL cannot be used against most ships effectively. Most of the uses for the PDL described above are overpriced. Keep in mind that the Earthling's laser fires slowly and will never be a strong tactical weapon, only a last resort, and even then, a weak one. I just want to change the PDL so that the Earthling is not too punished for using its pitiful weapon to inflict a few more scratches on the enemy's hull. Against a Mmrnmhrm's missiles it is just not cost effective for an Earthling to zap them (and probably won't be even if this mod is done). While it works on a Spathi's BUTTs, like vs. the Mmrnmhrm, it is not cost effective because it does not leave enough energy to fire a missile and hope to have anything left over for a couple quick shots.
   To sum up, generally speaking, using the laser is extremely rare because it is not a fruitful strategy. Most players save energy for missiles and use them instead. Trying to prevent damage from incoming fire with the PDL is difficult and generally ineffective as a part of overall strategy. It should be noted that in Star Control 3 they changed the cost of the Cruiser's PDL to 2 energy per shot, changing the weapon's status to "slightly better than useless". I think this indicates that it was recognized by many that this "ought to be done" to make the PDL slightly usable. The cruiser is relatively weak against most ships and always will be. I think that, especially if we are to raise the price of the cruiser, we should make this small modification to it.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Elvish Pillager on November 30, 2007, 11:39:56 am
1) Any reference to SCnot3 works more against your point than for it! 8)

2) The point defense laser is used often in the following fights: (just a quickly thrown together list) Androsynth, Arilou, Chmmr, Orz[1], Pkunk, Slylandro, Spathi, Ur-Quan[1], Utwig, ZFP. The PD laser can also be used in many more fights to finish off an enemy when it's at 1 or 2 crew (I've done this to, notably, Kohr-Ah and Druuge...) and has some other minor uses.

3) Very rarely would reducing the weapon's cost help any of this.

4) Even if we were to change the way the ships worked, it would be for overall balance reasons, not because someone's favorite ship was weak.

[1]: The laser actually isn't used often in these fights, because the opponent will be smart enough not to launch fighters/marines. It's still the laser being effective.


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Resh Aleph on November 30, 2007, 02:16:49 pm
It could be a nice mod, but I don't find the normal Cruiser problematic really. I mean, it's called point defence, not offence. It does its job against some ships and fails miserably against others. That's just how SC2 melee works...


Title: Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
Post by: Shiver on November 30, 2007, 06:51:37 pm
PsyDev, you made a very well-written post but I don't see how the Earthling Cruiser needs to be made any stronger. It's very useful at 12 points. If you lower PDL's energy cost, you're strengthening the Cruiser's damage output indirectly because it will be able to pump out slightly more missiles in any situation where the PDL comes into play. Elvish Pillager cited a few matches, but in fact the PDL is useful against every single ship. Why? Because the cruiser is slow to accelerate, and one asteroid bounce will typically prove disasterous for the ship. PDL is fantastic for zapping these incoming space rocks. That is the most valuable use for the cruiser's secondary ability from my rather extensive experience with net melee.

Now let me address some of the points you brought up.


Quote from: PsyDev
However, there is one mod I would like to see in this game, that I think wouldn't be too egregious an offense, even for the purists: - Modify Earthling Cruiser poind-defense laser to 3 or even 2 energy points instead of from 4.

True. It is a modest suggestion. But a ship that is already very effective doesn't need an improvement, big or small.


Quote from: PsyDev
At the moment, the maximum damage an Earthling can do with its full energy (18) is launch two missiles (9 energy each) that do 4 damage each, for a total of 8 damage (or 2.25 energy per unit damage). Currently the laser (4 fuel for 1 damage) costs 4 energy per unit damage. It can do a maximum or 5 damage on a full tank (it recharges enough to let there be +1 shot) with the PDL. However, in practice one is rarely close enough to an enemy ship for long enough to get many shots on. Either the ship moves away, the ship quickly destroys you (e.g. ur-quan) or you didn't have enough fuel to start with in the first place to get many shots off.

I don't think the PDL was ever intended to inflict any serious amount of damage per second. The phrase "point defense" itself implies that it is a protective measure.
 

Quote from: PsyDev
When a ship comes close to the Earthling, the Earthling is more or less screwed.

This statement has definite basis, but it's too simplistic. The Earthling can wriggle away from a Kohr-Ah or Ur-Quan long enough to inflict serious damage upon either of them before they get too close, although I've seen a tremendous amount of variety in both of those match-ups. The other thing the Earthling has going for it is its narrow outline. As long as your front is kept facing the enemy, they have a very small area to hit. It's not uncommon to see an Androsynth blaze at and miss an Earthling over and over because it can't catch its target on the wide side.


Quote from: PsyDev
Let's face it, the Earthling is slow and its weapons relatively weak. Once a reasonably large ship closes in on it, it's usually game over. It would be good, I think, to make the Earthling at least do some better-than-trivial damage with its laser in its final death throes.

The ship is not underpowered, if that's what you're implying. It does get caught and killed at some point, but for 11 or 12 points that's to be expected. I suppose if the Earthling weren't strong enough, more drastic changes would be needed than a slight energy drop of the PDL.


Quote from: PsyDev
At this point, the earth's laser is pretty much good for nothing. Of its uses, I can think:
 - Killing Ur-Quan Fighters
 - Zapping Limpets
 - Hurting or killing, if lucky, an Arilou (only after extreme damage)
 - Zapping outgoing crew that Syreen calls
 - Destroying asteroids when you're in a gravity whip

It can also destroy incoming nukes from a mirror Earthling. There are ways around that, and it's actually kind of fun trying to slip a nuke past an enemy cruiser's defense while preventing them from doing the same thing to you. Additionally, you can stop Orz marines with the laser if you're flying directly away from them at a good speed as you fire it. It just isn't very reliable against them, nor should it be.

 
Quote from: PsyDev
Keep in mind that the Earthling's laser fires slowly and will never be a strong tactical weapon, only a last resort, and even then, a weak one.

But it's not a last resort, it's a situational tool.


Quote from: PsyDev
While it works on a Spathi's BUTTs, like vs. the Mmrnmhrm, it is not cost effective because it does not leave enough energy to fire a missile and hope to have anything left over for a couple quick shots.

Spathi recharge is atrocious, so Earthling can actually block torpedos and return fire. Defense against torpedos isn't 100% reliable, especially if the cruiser is flying straight at them full speed.