The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

So which one is it? Post your reason and do not forget the most honest two SC2 reviews I've ever read:
A very disappointing masterpiece (http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/star-control-ii/reviews/reviewerId,23022/)
A Starflight clone. (http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/star-control-ii/reviews/reviewerId,67734/)

Hey schmuck, get over here (http://uqm.stack.nl/forum/index.php?topic=3816.msg50145#msg50145) and compile our price mod for Windows. ;)

It is actually just "Starflight", it is not written like "StarCraft". Because of this I used to call "Star Control", "Starcontrol". :)

Star Control 2 has nice dialogue with a nice quantity of really humorous moments like its predecessor Starflight, which are further enhanced by its nicely animated and detailed portrait artwork and in some cases, voice acting. The ship combat, though maybe a little too arcade like for some, is really a strong point as it offers enough to be a game in itself. The theme music is quite cheesy as opposed to the SF starting themes which are fairly good and memorable (if in some versions hindered by the limited technology of the time) but in game, SC2's music is very well done and enhances many parts of the game that just would not nearly be as interesting and immersive in silence.

Sadly, there are a few areas that really limited SC2's potential and moves SF into the lead by a sizeable margin in my opinion. While planetary exploration was as big and diverse of a part of SF as space exploration, in SC2 it has very little put into it. Planets are extremely small on the surface and lack any kind of complexity in terrain or lifeforms or weather. Really not much more here than Pacman, you try to run over the glowy dots and avoid the things that are chasing after you or exploding. This is a very noticeable shortcoming, because mining planets is still about as important to your survival and success as it was in SF, so you must spend alot of time doing it. Another major issue with the planet system, is that minerals and lifeforms are completely and quickly expended, creating barren celestial wastelands around the starbase and forcing you to fly farther and farther away to continue your strip mining.

This compounds the next problem, the fuel system. Unlike in SF, you cannot find fuel on any planets, you cannot pay for it from other races using your RU and you cannot get more of it at a centrally located starbase (like the syreen one, huge missed opportunity here gameplay wise). This is a big problem because your supposedly advanced mothership burns more juice then all the american made suvs and las vegas combined. And you are in a far corner of the map, with much of the action taking place all the way across to the other corner, making fuel consumption a hugely costly expense.

But while SF had fluxes, you have quasispace portals to help you cut through space without burning fuel. Sadly there is a catch to this as well. While fluxes occur in Hyperspace directly and become fully charted on your starmap after you haved passed through one the first time, portals require an artifact acquired through a few sub plot missions that are a great distance away and a bitch to use. First you have to enter Quasispace using the device which costs you fuel, then you have to choose a portal that will take you to someplace in Hyperspace and you don't know where until you have gone through it. So you basically have to do alot of load/save trial and error and write everything down on paper, which is not very fun at all, basically a price the game makes you pay to waste some of your time with no gameplay value whatsoever.

The last problem is the game terminates whether you lose or win. In Starflight there was a time limit to complete the main campain, but if you were successful before that then you could keep playing forever. In Starflight 2, completing the main campaign meant you finished the game and it ended there, but if you did not complete it or went back to a save before you completed it, you could keep playing forever as well. Since Star Control 2 ends in either event, it is essentially rushing you to stop playing it. By doing it this way, replay value is also seriously hindered, leaving you to mostly hold super melee matches or wait for a sequel that would have mirrored Starflight 2, but instead ends up being made by an entirely different company that really wants to make an entirely different game with a popular IP's name stamped on it.

I think we can safely conclude that Deus Siddis is a Starflight fan. ;) I also don't see Starflight as a "titan". If I recall correctly ,it wasn't a huge success on the market ,although, the title did earn a cult like, minority following.

He makes a good case, although I haven't played Starflight. The reviews Valaggar has linked are interesting as well. I'm tempted to try and track that down on Home of the Underdogs now.

Shiver

Either I have passed into a mirror universe or am suffering from food poisoning causing bizzare hallucinations. I should consult with a doctor or a quantum physicist, the question is which. . . :)


www.starflt.com

This site has various versions of the game integrated with the corresponding emulation software, makes things a good deal easier. The PC version is the original, but being the oldest, also has the oldest graphics. The Amiga has the best graphics of all the versions that stay fairly close to the original (though it seems to be easier gameplay wise). The Sega has arguably the best graphics, buts its gamplay is farther from the original SF, actually being a crossbreed between Starflight and Star Control 2.

RTyp06

I suppose my avatar was not enough of a clue on its own.


Fixed.

Seriously, neither of these games are titans, neither was a huge financial success and both have a devoted cult following that produces and trys to produce remakes and sequels.

The 'titans' are games like Mass Effect that only offer a shell of what these two games are, but with nicer graphics and maybe better tested balancing.

Fixed.  ;)

Hehe, I guess they just had the guts to finish what SC2 started. :o

Starflight
Sega Genesis
Mt. Dew

Them were the days...

I have to give Starflight  my vote, but it's pretty much an even race and these two horses have left the rest of the pack far behind in this particular contest... well, there's also MoO but I have not played that (afaik). It's one of my faviourite genres, yet I have missed so many gems and can never quite find the time correct that mistake.

Starflight gets the vote because I prefer a deeper detail level, even if it means that the game is harder to play. But, I think it's possible to have scalability in the complexity of a game, i.e. to have a superficial layer of 'pick up and play' / Arcade style gameplay, then emerging layers of complexity beneath that for players like me.

If I have to choose just one thing about SF which won my heart, it' was being able to set up  your crew and having them command the ship. This is one of those features which has HUGE collateral benefits on immersion. It doesn't matter if they're just bytes which are poorly displayed, because the magic happens in the player's mind.

When it comes to universe / alien design, I think I prefer SC though. Spathi, Syreen, ZFP... too many favourites to list. I know the SC aliens are highly derived from SF, but I think there was some notable refinenement and improved homigenity done... at least in the direction of my preferences.

Same thing here, especially with MoO, which is high up on my to-play list.


I agree, all I would like to have seen, or see in a future SC game would be for that arcade style to be slowed down just a tad, have some more maneuvering options added (Supox were a step in the right direction on this front, imo) and for there to be more than two ships fighting at once. Hardpoints for all ships might also be a good addition and it would also be nice for the larger ships to have a slightly 'heavier' maneuvering and firepower, but neither of these are really essential.


Heh, I had forgotten about that. As a kid playing SF back in the day, that was a big part of what made it fun. Especially because they didn't look at all like lame 'humanoids'.


Well I still prefer my Thrynn without honesty or wings, but I have to say SC2's aliens were done very well in all respects. This is without doubt, SC2's greatest strength.

I haven't played starflight, so I'm not qualified to say; however, I would point out that the first reviewer is incompetent at mining. Obviously didn't listen to Hayes' advice.

But, so many players are in the same boat, that that's a problem.

I agree the suppox were a step in the right direction. Imagine if all SC ships had varying degrees of simple side to side strafing. Just that one thing alone would have made the melee a substantially different experience imo. That coupled with corvette through dreadnought sizing and matching handling characteristics based on weight as you suggest, would have made Super Melee spectacular imo.

im not too keen on multiple ship combat becuase this really slows down gameplay. I'd like a faster, mortal kombat style perhaps even with varying degrees of damage expressed through damage models (a dread with a gaping hole in the side) rather than the crew count on a side panel.

Also, Deus_Siddis , I can barely make out that your avatar is a ship, let alone identify it. It's a bit dark on my monitor. But i'n all honesty, I have played starflight too few times for that pic to become instantly identifiable. Is it from the box cover? If not where can I find it?

Tryp06 > Atari ST cover? http://www.mobygames.com/game/atari-st/starflight


Deus> Yeah, Especially because [the crew] didn't look at all like lame 'humanoids'. It wouldn't have worked nearly as well with races derived from StarTrek in the same way the crew concept was. I was really excited about having... shrubberies, androids and whatever crew my ship. The same thing wouldn't have happened with 'funny foreheads', and it helped SF get its own character.

The unique stats (training), and posssibly a diary/log really brought depth. This could be taken much further of course...

Negative points go to SF for having aged badly. I'm not too keen about general GUI, the tiny viewport, anonymous enemy crafts, tile/step based combat, etc.... but, just like Exile for the BBC, it really had balls trying to do all it did, and I admire that.

I like both, but Star Control II still remains my greatest game of all time.

Let's elaborate on Starflight first.
-I think it has a better opening scenario. (Your society has just rediscovered the secret of space travel and is reaching for the stars once again, only to find that their homeworld is in grave danger.)
-I prefer the ship component system. (Each component can be seperately upgraded AND damaged, and each component has a distinct purpose. It just feels more realistic than SC2, or maybe just better.)
-I also like how your crew and their skills contribute to your overall effectiveness, and also the potential problems you can face should one of them bite the dust. (In SC2, crew is hardly personal-they just act as a strange measure of ship integrity.)
-Finally, the planetary exploration aspect of Starflight feels better-the landscapes are much larger, and it seems to actually matter when you find a ruin or something(and you don't find a whole lot of ruins in SC2).

So, why do I prefer SC2? It's all about your fellow sentients. I never associated with the Starflight races like I did the Star Control ones, likely for the following reasons:

-Each and every one of the Star Control races have a distinct charm which I never felt in a Starflight race. It's hard to describe, but you understand perfectly when you interact with them.
-In all versions of Starflight, to my knowledge, all the ships look the same unless you take a peek at the picture you get after scanning one. This breaks my suspension of disbelief. Star Control II obviously does not have this problem.
-The SC2 races have their own unique font for subtitles, as well as music(and voiceovers in the 3DO and UQM versions). Starflight has no voiceovers(obviously), little music(that which I did hear did not interest me much, likely due to their simplistic nature; this is going by the Amiga version and not the Genesis remake), and the same font for all races.
-Oh, yeah, and Star Control II has MUCH better music. On the other hand, Starflight was originally developed with IBM PCs with beepy, bloopy, super-suck-ass speakers in mind, and not a real computer like the Amiga, Atari ST, or even the bloody C64, and thus I shouldn't really be holding this against it.

Now, if someone would combine the best elements of both into a game that also borrowed from Independence War, Freespace, and Battlecruiser/Universal Combat(in other words, a space "sim" with Newtonian physics that focused on exploring planets and talking with/fighting aliens instead of just blowing stuff up)to make the best(space adventure and exploration)game ever....

While we're on the topic of combining games here....
I personally think it would cool if someone combined Star Control and Starflight  with Imperium Galactica.
Star Control and Starflight have nice aliens, balanced and interesting [though a bit arcade-like] combat, and decent planet exploration. Imperium Galactica meanwhile has research, colony management, and really cool ground combat. All three games have good music and plot lines. Throw in some some good cut-scenes, randomization so every time you play it isn't the same, [and maybe a graphics upgrade] and you would have a damn fine game.

Fine! Let's see... hmm... what do you think of this idea, having one of each of the following types of buildings: factory, mine, landing pod factory, starbase, research facility... did I miss something?

Throw those silly MODs and OGGs into the dustbin. MIDIs rule!1!!!1

Let's say... a race of ancient energy beings predating even the Precursors are about to come and destroy the world, and you must stop them by.... erm... making the trip to the supermarket for them, and throwing some groceries into their fridge?

Thee-phee KABOOM! A thousand ships warp out in front of your starship, engaging you your Ur-Quan Dreadnought in a gruesome one-to-one combat. Ah, and of course, they first deliver a cool speech. Y'know, the sort of thing they use to say at the customs, before inspecting you and your cargo.

The path of randomization cannot save the randomized ones. Seek nothingness of mind, and find peace.

You bet! Are animatronic puppets good enough for you, or do you want a cooler, more lively-coloured menu as well?

Enter Star Control 3.

Are you mocking me or Starcontrol 3? I can't tell. Unless it's both.............

Starcontrol 3 had potential, but it was really crapped out. My point was not to replicate Starcontrol 3, it was to make something different. Did SC3 have a good plot? No. Were the new aliens cool? No. Were the graphics really that much better? No. Was research meaningful? No. Was the music good? Hell no. Were the cut-scenes good? No. Were colonies primitive piles of near-uselessness? Yes. Was it randomized? Are you noticing a pattern here?

Imperium Galactica had actual strategy to colonization and colony  management. If your colony sucked ass [like having nothing but a factory, a mine, landing pod facility, research center, and starbase] your population would hate you and would either leave or rebel. Its graphics were kind of primitive but not bad. Research could actually be complicated and useful sometimes. And of course, if your colonies weren't defended they would be attacked and either destroyed or captured with ground units. Furthermore, in ground battles you could actually marshal your forces around instead of watching some statistics appear on the screen. Those are the main reasons why I specified that game and not Master of Orion or Space Empires.

Animatronic Puppets! Ha!

Hey, sorry if I offended you. I meant only to ridiculize SCNot3 and have a little fun as well. Yes, Imperium Galactica was a very good game, but I don't see how it could fit Star Control.

Don't worry. No offense taken.

And I think that features of Imp could probably fit quite well in a Starcon-type game.
All it would take is a little imagination.

Speaking of space strategy games, did anyone play Pax Imperia?

No, I do not believe I have. What is it like and where could I get it?

Yes, I did. In fact, I have not yet come around to playing much in the 4x genre before or since it.