The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release => General UQM Discussion => Topic started by: huxley on January 02, 2008, 05:45:32 pm



Title: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
Post by: huxley on January 02, 2008, 05:45:32 pm
I fell upon this site out of some random search and just played through star control 2 for the first time in 10-13 years when I had it on my 3do.  Going back over the complex motivations for the extermination of other species it seems like the ur-quan were merciful just really confused.  The kohr ah were definately horrible and wanted everyone dead but at the end of the game with the ur-quan defeated I still felt bad for them in many ways.  They were inslaved, had to live in pain, had to kill their best and only friends and completely wipe them out as well as who knows what else.

I really wish there would be a real SC3 someday so you could see what happened to them, who knows maybe someday they would be allies ^^


Title: Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
Post by: AngusThermopyle on January 02, 2008, 07:33:34 pm
*SPOILER WARNING*




Yeah, I do a little, actually. After the Kohr-Ah defeat them, the greenies do seem genuinely concerned for your survival. You kinda get the feeling the by losing their war, the Ur-Quan feel ashamed and realize the folly of their doctrine of slavery. Maybe that's just wishful thinking on my part though.

Pity, however, does not excuse years of untold warmongering, slavery, and suffering they brought upon the galaxy.


Title: Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
Post by: 0xDEC0DE on January 02, 2008, 09:43:19 pm
Spoilers, schmoilers, this damn game is fifteen years old.  If you haven't played it through by now, quit reading the forums and get to it, you'll thank me later.

But just to prime the pump for spoilers: King Kong falls off the Empire State Building and dies, Darth Vader is Luke's father, Rosebud is the name of a sled, and Kyuzo is felled by a sniper's gunshot at the end of the final battle.

With that out of the way...

I've never reserved my pity for them until the end of the game -- I feel bad for them once they reveal their twisted, internally-quite-reasonable-but-externally-horrible motivations for what they do.

The Ur-Quan are essentially childhood abuse survivors, and the metaphor is pretty detailed:  the things they were forced to do as "children" still haunt them, and they were permanently altered by their experience (i.e., split into green and black)  They also act accordingly in-game: the Kzer-Za by perpetuating the abuse they suffered (ironically becoming the very thing they hate, and living in abject denial of that fact) and the Kohr-Ah by becoming sociopaths and attempting to isolate themselves from further pain (in this case, by destroying anything they deem a threat without compassion)

If only you could go to the center of their sphere of influence and repeat into the hyperspace caster, "it's not your fault..."  Then both fleets would degenerate into crying messes and head coreward to "see about a girl"  :)


Title: Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
Post by: Dakkus on January 02, 2008, 11:23:23 pm
If only you could go to the center of their sphere of influence and repeat into the hyperspace caster, "it's not your fault..."  Then both fleets would degenerate into crying messes and head coreward to "see about a girl"  :)

Hey, that sounds like a good plot for a future SC game! ;)


Title: Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
Post by: meep-eep on January 03, 2008, 12:10:10 am
The Ur-Quan are essentially childhood abuse survivors, and the metaphor is pretty detailed:  the things they were forced to do as "children" still haunt them, and they were permanently altered by their experience (i.e., split into green and black)  They also act accordingly in-game: the Kzer-Za by perpetuating the abuse they suffered (ironically becoming the very thing they hate, and living in abject denial of that fact)
I think that's pretty far-fetched. Your comparison is broken; the Kzer-Za don't force anyone to do anything. They allow their victims to be restricted to their planets instead of fighting for them. And it's likely that most of the individuals of each species would never leave their planet at all anyway.
So, in your metaphor, the parents were kept on a chain when they were young, and forced to do bad stuff to others, and as parents, what they do to their children is to take away their passports. While at the same time, protecting them from outside harm.

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and the Kohr-Ah by becoming sociopaths and attempting to isolate themselves from further pain (in this case, by destroying anything they deem a threat without compassion)
Do keep in mind that the Kohr-Ah (at least the ones you see in the game) believe in reincarnation. They believe that their action may even turn out for the better for their victims, and they allow them to perform last rites.


Title: Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
Post by: 0xDEC0DE on January 03, 2008, 03:59:14 am
Not so far-fetched.  From this interview (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_29/176-Late-1980s-and-Beyond.2) with Paul Reiche III:

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My own take on [them] came from my relationships with people who had experienced significant childhood abuse and how those traumas produced distinctly odd behaviors in adults. [Their] doctrines were the overtly crazy but internally reasonable responses to their treatment by the Dynarri, and the pain they had to endure to win their freedom from slavery.


Title: Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
Post by: meep-eep on January 03, 2008, 04:49:17 am
I'm not arguing about the abuse/trauma theme in itself.
But what I think is stretching the analogy is is your one-to-one translation of specific behaviours.


Title: Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
Post by: countchocula86 on January 03, 2008, 05:47:02 am
To be perfectly honest, I dont pity them. In some part of their tentacly minds they knew what they were doing was wrong.


Title: Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
Post by: taltamir on January 03, 2008, 06:19:40 am
The reason you cannot move them into tears is because they never suffered abuse, their ANCESTORS did. They are just perpetuating the doctrines set forth by the "abused children" with a religious zeal


Title: Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
Post by: Resh Aleph on January 03, 2008, 06:28:09 am
The reason you cannot move them into tears is because they never suffered abuse, their ANCESTORS did. They are just perpetuating the doctrines set forth by the "abused children" with a religious zeal
Yeah, that's a very weak spot in the storyline IMO. It seems rather silly that they're so passionate about something so old. Unless they're immortal?

I liked that psychoanalysis, 067540336. :D


Title: Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
Post by: Valaggar Redux on January 03, 2008, 02:10:46 pm
The initial, traumatized generation of Ur-Quan passed over their doctrines to the next generation via education, and it's education which perpetuates their behaviour. As strong as their zeal for their Path/Doctrine is, it's nothing that can't be transmitted through education -- history (and the contemporary world -- e.g. Islamic fanatics/terrorists) has plenty of examples of this.

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I think that's pretty far-fetched. Your comparison is broken; the Kzer-Za don't force anyone to do anything. They allow their victims to be restricted to their planets instead of fighting for them. And it's likely that most of the individuals of each species would never leave their planet at all anyway.
So, in your metaphor, the parents were kept on a chain when they were young, and forced to do bad stuff to others, and as parents, what they do to their children is to take away their passports. While at the same time, protecting them from outside harm.

The Kzer-Za's primary motivation for enslaving others is protecting their own race, not protecting those others. Your "improved" parent-child analogy seems to indicate that the Kzer-Za do what they do primarily to protect others, not themselves -- which is false.

Also, I don't think that the fact that "the parents were [...] forced to do bad stuff to others" was part of what traumatized them.
When Zelnick is under mental compulsion by the neo-Dnyarri to "seek death at the hands of his enemy", his consciousness seems to "turn off" largely (Zelnick has two replies about how he felt during the compulsion: "It was like I fell asleep, or was unconscious." and "I felt like someone had control of my mind and my body."; both of them make the Ur-Quan captain to claim that it is all too familiar. There's also "Kind of like the screen went dark, and then POW! here you were.", which makes the Ur-Quan to say "WHAT DO YOU MEAN?! ELUCIDATE!" -- probably because it's too vague, not because it's an inaccurate description of mental compulsion, as it's in the same vein as the first reply)

My conclusion is that what traumatized the Ur-Quan was using Excruciators to defeat the Dnyarri ("When we discovered that intense pain could block the Dnyarri's mental powers, we were able to destroy them, but it took years. Can you imagine, alien, what it must have been like to wear an Excruciator? To live in endless screaming pain for months on end? No you cannot."). However, when they educated the next generation to continue to uphold their Path/Doctrine, they also told them that one of the reasons they had to cleanse/enslave all threats was that they had been slaves (though this small affront to their nationalistic pride was actually insignificant to the parents, who faced much worse -- i.e. the Excruciators), to increase the zeal of the young.

[that is, the parents were forced to use self-flagellation to free themselves when they were young, so they educated their children to enslave everybody so that the children don't get enslaved themselves, as the trauma suffered by the parents caused the parents to highly value freedom]

EDIT: Shortened reply.


Title: Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
Post by: Resh Aleph on January 03, 2008, 02:53:45 pm
The initial, traumatized generation of Ur-Quan passed over their doctrines to the next generation via education, and it's education which perpetuates their behaviour. As strong as their zeal for their Path/Doctrine is, it's nothing that can't be transmitted through education -- history (and the contemporary world -- e.g. Islamic fanatics/terrorists) has plenty of examples of this.

I don't know... I think fanaticism works so well because of the captivating concept of God. And history shows that even that can be resisted, in spite of tradition. This case is more like the Holocaust, and I can't say I feel the same way about it as my grandparents...

So I don't suppose it's conceivable that the Ur-Quan are immortal? :-\


Title: Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
Post by: Valaggar Redux on January 03, 2008, 05:42:12 pm
You weren't taught by your parents to mercilessly kill all Germans you see, though. And even if they would have done that, you would have had access to outside influences, to alternate views, too -- not your entire species would have felt such a contempt for Germans. The Ur-Quan don't have this luxury. From the very moment the second generation of free Ur-Quan was born, their whole species was already on a holy crusade against all other species.

And the Ur-Quan can't possibly be so long-lived -- the Kohr-Ah line when they first talk to The Captain when he has the neo-Dnyarri is "We sense... something... something ancient... a sickly smell... a chilling wind. My ancestors scream from within their chambers in my mind but I cannot understand their words. This feeling... a memory? It sickens us, and for the first time in our lives, for the first time in generations... We fear."

Obviously, the Ur-Quan may alternatively have a genetic memory, and thus the trauma would be inherited by the next generation. This would also explain their lines when you have the neo-Dnyarri aboard (especially the Kohr-Ah line). But it doesn't make much sense from an evolutionary standpoint, as a species that remembers every unpleasant incident their ancestors went through isn't really prone to survive for long. Alternatively,  if we go by "education transmitted the zeal", it means that the Ur-Quan's vulnerability to mental compulsion makes their subconscious very sensitive to sources of mental compulsion in range, which made them to utter those lines above.


Title: Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
Post by: huxley on January 03, 2008, 10:29:06 pm
Well I think there are definately some loose plot points.  At no point do we ever find out how long the ur-quan live for or what their manner of teaching is to their offspring so we could never answer the questions how their credo is continued.  I still stick by my original theory, the ur-quan while fighting were a power that needed to be destroyed but after destruction there is definately a sense of tragedy and sadness that it had to end in such a manner.


Title: Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
Post by: taltamir on January 04, 2008, 01:34:19 am
The initial, traumatized generation of Ur-Quan passed over their doctrines to the next generation via education, and it's education which perpetuates their behaviour. As strong as their zeal for their Path/Doctrine is, it's nothing that can't be transmitted through education -- history (and the contemporary world -- e.g. Islamic fanatics/terrorists) has plenty of examples of this.

That about sums it up... this what I also meant to imply. You could no more reason with an Ur Quan then you could with a Muslim suicide bomber.
It is their religion, it is their faith, it is their creed and doctrine to do so. It was born from being the "abused children" but now it is simply a violent religion


Title: Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
Post by: Resh Aleph on January 04, 2008, 07:50:32 am
It just doesn't seem realistic to me that the offspring are so passionate over an historic event. I don't think this is anything like religion. Religion is mystic. People love that stuff. History is boring.

And again, even religion isn't a race's Catholic wedding, so to speak. There was a time when the whole world was religious, yet it's changed. Even in one religion, there are many different beliefs.

Not that it's realistic that entire races have the same personality... but I guess reality is boring. :P


Title: Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
Post by: countchocula86 on January 04, 2008, 05:35:44 pm
Indoctrination? Parents pass their hate and fear on to their offspring. Plus, from Vals quote, it certainly seems like theres some kind of genetic instinctual memory.


Title: Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
Post by: Death 999 on January 04, 2008, 06:26:05 pm
History is boring.

I'm very sorry for you; properly encountered, history is gripping.


Title: Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
Post by: Resh Aleph on January 04, 2008, 08:05:55 pm
Not as gripping as religion is to a religious person... Not even close.


Title: Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
Post by: Neonlare on January 04, 2008, 08:57:26 pm
Not as gripping as religion is to a religious person... Not even close.

Why hello there off-topic.

Anyhow, I sort of felt pity on defeating the Ur-Quan, but when it's either your species against the other one, there's little choice in the matter.


Title: Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
Post by: Death 999 on January 05, 2008, 12:49:46 am
Not as gripping as religion is to a religious person... Not even close.

Well, I guess that completely disproves my point, then! I concede to your superior experience, wisdom, knowledge of history, and knowledge of how gripping history is despite thinking it's boring.


Title: Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
Post by: Resh Aleph on January 05, 2008, 07:30:08 am
Not as gripping as religion is to a religious person... Not even close.

Why hello there off-topic.

Valag compared the Ur-Quan zeal to religious zeal, and I'm arguing against that comparison.

Not as gripping as religion is to a religious person... Not even close.

Well, I guess that completely disproves my point, then! I concede to your superior experience, wisdom, knowledge of history, and knowledge of how gripping history is despite thinking it's boring.

I think you're missing my point. My personal opinion about how interesting history is, is irrelevant. What I'm arguing is that divine faith has a much more profound emotional effect on people who embrace it, than any kind of knowledge (including that of what happened in the past). I'm arguing that people are naturally fascinated by the irrational. I'm arguing that you can't become a suicide bomber just because you find history to be unjust.


Title: Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
Post by: Neonlare on January 05, 2008, 02:09:57 pm


I'm arguing that you can't become a suicide bomber just because you find history to be unjust.

Actually, there have been suicide bombers in Spain, purely due to political and historical reasons, anyhow, now you put it that way it makes more sense, your previous statement sounded like a miniture flame of sorts.

The Ur-Quan Kzer Ah (the green ones I think) are more political whereas the Kohr Ah are more religious, perhaps this illustrates two extremes residing inside the game?


Title: Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
Post by: Lukipela on January 05, 2008, 06:00:47 pm
It just doesn't seem realistic to me that the offspring are so passionate over an historic event. I don't think this is anything like religion. Religion is mystic. People love that stuff. History is boring.

And again, even religion isn't a race's Catholic wedding, so to speak. There was a time when the whole world was religious, yet it's changed. Even in one religion, there are many different beliefs.

Not that it's realistic that entire races have the same personality... but I guess reality is boring. :P

I agree, the Quan seem much to coherent to be religious zealots. Zealots tend to splinter off into groups that fight eachother as much as anyone else.

Leaving all canon behind and just theorizing, maybe the Quan do something to their young to give them the "proper mindset"? Many cultures here on Earth have rites to mark ones passage into adulthood. The Quan that freed themselves were probably pretty messed up from having spent all that time in excruciators and whatnot. Maybe they devised a rite to make sure their spawn wouldn't forget the task?  To make sure the task was completed? Like say, stick them in the excruciator for a year and have them watch holo-clips from the great war of freedom. Make it as real to your spawn as it was to you.

As for the original topic, yeah I felt sorry for them. They are very tragic figures. But just because you empathise with the enemy, oyu can't leave them standing.


Title: Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
Post by: Valaggar Redux on January 05, 2008, 09:26:10 pm
1. Regarding zeal: I'd say that a solitary species which lives in a society (such as the Ur-Quan) would have, paradoxically, a strong societal inertia. New ideas would spread with great difficulty, due to the limited contact between the members of the society. To further strengthen this inertia, free thought and speech might even be legally discouraged.
Additionally, remember that the Ur-Quan were the most vulnerable to mental compulsion of all races under Dnyarri control; they're apparently quite susceptible to suggestion.

2. Regarding Luki's theory: Your theory conjures beautiful (if sadistic) pictures in my mind, but I'd say the Ur-Quan are too horripilated by the idea of someone from their species undergoing that sort of suffering again. Using the parent-child analogy, a parent who has been kept slave in his youth does not keep his children in chains to make them avoid getting enslaved at all costs.
Besides, there's this Kohr-Ah quote: "Can you imagine, alien, what it must have been like to wear an Excruciator? To live in endless screaming pain for months on end? No you cannot." Not "what it is like", but "what it must have been like", indicating that they don't actually know what it feels like.

(By the way, the Excruciator is worn, not occupied)

3. Regarding the original topic:
Pity? No. "Frustration" would me more appropriate. I always feel frustrated when the villains lose. Though of course I still kill them, 'cuz I want to watch the frikkin' credits...  :P


Title: Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
Post by: Lukipela on January 06, 2008, 04:57:06 pm
1. Regarding zeal: I'd say that a solitary species which lives in a society (such as the Ur-Quan) would have, paradoxically, a strong societal inertia. New ideas would spread with great difficulty, due to the limited contact between the members of the society. To further strengthen this inertia, free thought and speech might even be legally discouraged.
Additionally, remember that the Ur-Quan were the most vulnerable to mental compulsion of all races under Dnyarri control; they're apparently quite susceptible to suggestion.

But seeing as they don't interact much, shouldn't that give each member of the species more time to think on their own, and question things? Limited contact places you alone with your thoughts, not a good thing I'd think. But then again, this is all loose theorizing.

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2. Regarding Luki's theory: Your theory conjures beautiful (if sadistic) pictures in my mind, but I'd say the Ur-Quan are too horripilated by the idea of someone from their species undergoing that sort of suffering again. Using the parent-child analogy, a parent who has been kept slave in his youth does not keep his children in chains to make them avoid getting enslaved at all costs.

As a slightly similar example, there are women in certain parts of Africa that are pro female circumcision, and force their daughters to go through with it even though they have had it done unto themselves, because of the way their society and culture works. Not everyone obviously, but if the Quan ritual is more persuading, who knows?

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Besides, there's this Kohr-Ah quote: "Can you imagine, alien, what it must have been like to wear an Excruciator? To live in endless screaming pain for months on end? No you cannot." Not "what it is like", but "what it must have been like", indicating that they don't actually know what it feels like.

Good catch, I didn't remember that. Something else then.
(By the way, the Excruciator is worn, not occupied)


Title: Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
Post by: Elerium on January 08, 2008, 08:18:00 pm
Religious zealots in the game are the Ilwrath, indoctrinated from birth to death to kill in the name of D&K, except they already have a natural evil for everything. If you want to apply religion to Ur-Quan, then the Kohr-Ah's belief in reincarnation would come in here. The Kzer-Za quans zeal probably stems from wanting to protect the other species by any means necessary, that being the most obvious way by force.

Although I'd say the Ur-Quan you speak to are the old tortured ones, or they do inherit genetic memory. Probably the genetic memory I think.


Title: Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
Post by: Valaggar Redux on January 09, 2008, 03:36:52 pm
But seeing as they don't interact much, shouldn't that give each member of the species more time to think on their own, and question things? Limited contact places you alone with your thoughts, not a good thing I'd think. But then again, this is all loose theorizing.

I doubt that a situation where a lot of Ur-Quan independently reach the conclusion that their Paths are flawed is really likely (as it would be contrary to all their childhood training, to everything they have done since then). And probably they're used to not challenging generally-held beliefs (i.e. they're used to thinking "Meh, the Path might be wrong after all, but who cares... I might even get lynched if I act as if the Path is wrong, so I'd rather not."). But of course, this is just loose theorizing indeed.


As a slightly similar example, there are women in certain parts of Africa that are pro female circumcision, and force their daughters to go through with it even though they have had it done unto themselves, because of the way their society and culture works. Not everyone obviously, but if the Quan ritual is more persuading, who knows?

But this is very different from what you were proposing about the Ur-Quan; those Human females weren't traumatized.
Ahhh... all this trauma talk reminds me of the Great Tragedy... when my species... AH!... broke the Ultron...
But never mind, calm yourself, Valaggar! The Ultron is once again restored to its former glory; we need not concern ourselves any longer with what was Before! Rejoice!!


Title: Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
Post by: Lukipela on January 13, 2008, 01:36:18 pm
I doubt that a situation where a lot of Ur-Quan independently reach the conclusion that their Paths are flawed is really likely (as it would be contrary to all their childhood training, to everything they have done since then). And probably they're used to not challenging generally-held beliefs (i.e. they're used to thinking "Meh, the Path might be wrong after all, but who cares... I might even get lynched if I act as if the Path is wrong, so I'd rather not."). But of course, this is just loose theorizing indeed.

Heh, I'd see it as more probable that anyone left alone without the boosting herlp of group-think would start questioning their vaslues and actions. I guess we will have to ask a Ur-Quan to find out who is right ;)

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But this is very different from what you were proposing about the Ur-Quan; those Human females weren't traumatized.

Having your genitals slashed off and sewn up sounds pretty darn traumatizing to me.


Title: Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
Post by: Valaggar Redux on January 13, 2008, 04:12:58 pm
Heh, I'd see it as more probable that anyone left alone without the boosting herlp of group-think would start questioning their vaslues and actions. I guess we will have to ask a Ur-Quan to find out who is right ;)

Where are the Twin Gods when you need them?

Having your genitals slashed off and sewn up sounds pretty darn traumatizing to me.

Not as much as a constant stream of agony lasting for months on end would traumatize one. Not by a far shot.
Though actually, you might argue that the very fact that the trauma was so intense made them uncaring for what their offspring suffer. That they are fueled more by an irrational grudge against every other species rather than a desire to make the world a safer place for all Ur-Quan.


Title: Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
Post by: Lukipela on January 13, 2008, 05:33:26 pm
Not as much as a constant stream of agony lasting for months on end would traumatize one. Not by a far shot.

No, but that's why I said "slightly similar" instead of "exactly the same". Female circumcision is traumatic, and causes all sorts of infection, scarring and general nastiness that keeps you in pain for along time after the actual procedure. Not as much as a fictional device that hooks into your brain of course, but that's not what I was claiming either.


Title: Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
Post by: Mhrny on January 19, 2008, 11:16:02 pm
Hi!  I'm new, love Star Control I + II, and I LOVE the Ur-Quan.  I'm an aspiring writer, and if I ever produce villains HALF as good as these crazy caterpillars, I'll die happy.

Anyway, personally, I think you are all looking at only one aspect.  Yes, the Excrutiators were horrible, the pain was horrible, but that isn't all that happened to them. 

Let's remember some things about Ur-Quan history.  First, on paper, they should never have created a strong society.  They had tremendous territoriality, their extreme individualism makes the Druuge look like socialists.  However, they conquered their territoriality and created a successful culture.  They had to work harder than just about any other species to create a successful society, but they did it.  So they were proud of this achievement.

Then, they meet the Taalo, and once again, they have to work hard to join the Sentient Milieu (though it is easy for them to be friends with the Taalo, joining the other species was difficult).  But they did it, despite all the odds.

Then, they found a perfect niche for themselves:  solitary explorers.  The impression I got was that they were at their happiest when they were a member of the Sentient Milieu.  They were wanted, they were needed, they contributed constructively to the improvement of galactic civilization.  They were proud of themselves, and I'm not talking arrogance, I'm talking the healthy pride of working hard, beating the odds and coming out successful.

Then, the Dnyarri come along.  Before the Ur-Quan can hope to fight back, everything they've worked for, EVERYTHING, is ripped from them by sadistic, cruel, lazy toads who've never worked for anything in their lives.  Not only that, but it is THEY, the Ur-Quan, who brought the Dnyarri to the Sentient Milieu (and doing something against your will does not lessen the guilt).  The Ur-Quan feel that they are the reasons for the destruction of the group who showed them a level of happiness and success that they had never before experienced. 

Not only that, but they are forced to completely eradicate the Taalo.  They killed the Taalo, their only friends, the people who gave them a chance when no one else would have, the people who brought them up to a level of contentment that they had never before experienced.

Finally, they destroy the Dnyarri.  Once more, they pay an extremely high price in order to succeed, but they succeed. 

Then, they look around.  The Taalo are dead.  The Sentient Milieu is in shambles.  Because they, the Ur-Quan brought the Dnyarri here.   Everything the Ur-Quan worked for, everything they achieved has been eradicated.  They spent thousands of years building, and the Dnyarri tore it all down in a matter of months.

They felt a horrible guilt.  Blood stained their tentacles, blood that will never be washed off.  They couldn't take it, they couldn't take the fact that they are the reasons for the genocide of three other sentient species.  They hated themselves.  Everytime they looked at themselves, they saw the murderers of the Taalo, the Drall, and the Yuli.

The Ur-Quan snapped.  Their territorial nature and instinctive xenophobia consumed them. The Kohr-Ah decided that if they could eradicate three species, they could eradicate thousands of species.  In their minds they were monsters, they might as well continue to be monsters, for perhaps, someday, when all the potential threats in the universe were eradicated, perhaps the Ur-Quan could once again find peace.  The Kzer-Za, meanwhile, couldn't stand the thought of genocide, not after all the blood that they had already spilled.  So they decided to create their own slave empire.   They justified it to themselves by saying that their empire would be benevolent, protective.  They would protect sentient races from themselves, from outside threats.  Under their rule, there would be no war, no genocide, no wanton destruction.  There would even be limited freedom, far more than with the Dnyarri.

And THAT is why the Ur-Quan are so dedicated to the Path of Now and Forever, and the Eternal Doctrine.  Not just because of the Extruciator.

P.S.
 I'd probably say that this is passed on through indoctrination and genetic memory, as has been suggested throughout the post, though my impression is that the Ur-Quan genetic memory is more a memory of emotions than a memory of specific events.


Title: Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
Post by: Deimos1313 on February 05, 2008, 07:25:11 pm
I think that we may be reading too much into Ur-Quan history and culture. The Ur-Quan had *always* been a fiercely predatory race, to the point of near uncontrollable instinctive rage in the presence of pretty much any carbon-based life. The Ur-Quan at the time of SC2 don't need to be inspired by ancient history to be the ultra-violent aggressors that we know them as; it is who they are, conflict is ingrained into their very genes. We can only speculate as to the true cultural significance of their respective Doctrines, but we can safely assume that it, at the very least, gives their murderous rampages a sense of some higher purpose, and that alone may have been enough to sustain their faith in the Doctrines for many thousands of years.


Title: Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
Post by: Waylander on February 19, 2008, 06:03:36 pm
I agree with Mhrny's  view of the  green quans, thats how i imagined it to be.

The green ur-quan feel guilty and go around preventing the possibility of any future re-occurances by locking away anyone who disagrees with them, removing them from possible harm. The Green's aren't evil per se they don't go around slaughtering all life simply for the sake of it  (or for the fun of it.) The mere fact that they give the people they defeat the choice to be "protected" or to be battle thralls (both options removing them from possible harm) shows that they do have some compassionate side.

I dont agree with the black quans though. Their hatred is more than likely out of fear , they never want to be controlled again so they will remove all other races from existence regardless of whether they could control them or not (Prevention beats cure). Their loathing of anyone not black quan is simply fear of difference, of the unknown similar to good old fashioned bigotry.


Title: Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
Post by: NamelessPlayer on February 19, 2008, 11:06:57 pm
I'll just keep this short and simple, with none of the in-depth discussion.

While their motive does evoke some sorrow out of me(something I have not said and still cannot say about any other villain that I know of), it does not save them from instant, burning rape courtesy of my homing Hellbore Cannon projectiles.

(Now, if I could just conceive a villain even half as good as the Ur-Quan that's original...my own take on a space adventure and exploration game set in a universe created from the ashes of this one has most of the remnants of humanity going off on a genocidal crusade in the hope of not being torn apart again by a war on Earth fought mostly by aliens manipulating the human population in search of a superweapon, which ultimately ended in the destruction of the planet and even this universe. It's still TOO inspired, as are many other aspects of this theoretical game. Maybe I just want a true Starflight or SC2 sequel THAT badly...)


Title: Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
Post by: alanahikarichan on March 13, 2008, 07:40:08 pm
I feel more sympathy for the Kzer-za than I do for the Kohr-ah-- but oh, do I feel for them. Mhrny explained why far better than I ever could, but-- if you ever let the Kohr-ah win the Conflict and then find a Kzer-za ship to talk to, here's what they say:

RUN HUMAN!
Because if you do not run -- do not find somewhere to hide and nurture your species
you are extinct, and we, who have tried to protect you
are now powerless to stop the killing frenzy of the Kohr-Ah.

(Emphasis mine.)

That's just... They don't want everyone to die, they've done everything in their power to keep EVERYONE safe despite the instinctual urge to kill and having every reason to be as insane as their darker brethren, and... gah, the whole thing makes me teary-eyed. ;_; It's not unusual for me to find it within myself to identify with, and even mourn for, the antagonists of a work of fiction, but they're just so... terrible things have happened to them, and they...

You imagine the threat of unknown invaders, or alien pestilence borne on the solar wind.
We have seen these. But you do not acknowledge your own worst enemy, yourselves.
We have found dead worlds without number, planets ravaged by atomic fire or gaian collapse.
These planets were not rendered sterile by outside forces.
They bear sad testament to the effects of unrestrained instinct and emotion
or simple ignorance.
We will prevent such mistakes.

I'm sorry if I can't help but think, if they had but carried out their quest to preserve life however they could in a more peaceful way, that they could have been benelovent, even Wise Mentors, instead of Overlords. And that they can't be... it's heartbreaking.

Yes, I'm a sap. Shut up.


Title: Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
Post by: MageKing17 on March 27, 2008, 03:57:46 pm
Also keep in mind what the Kzer-Za did for the Syreen.


Title: Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
Post by: alanahikarichan on March 28, 2008, 01:35:14 pm
Oh, yes, that too. They were the least cruel overlords I've ever seen in a work of fiction, actually. :O


Title: Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
Post by: Alvarin on April 30, 2008, 11:43:59 pm
Mhrny and Alanahikarichan have summarized it well . I do pity the Ur-Quan , original the most , black the least ...