The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release => Starbase Café => Topic started by: AngusThermopyle on January 18, 2008, 05:30:00 pm



Title: The clones are coming
Post by: AngusThermopyle on January 18, 2008, 05:30:00 pm
Looks like we're not too far off from real Androsynths (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/17/AR2008011700324.html?hpid=topnews). From the article:

Creation of the embryos -- grown from cells taken from the company's chief executive and one of its investors -- also offered sobering evidence that few, if any, technical barriers may remain to the creation of cloned babies.

I guess this was bound to happen eventually. Personally, I’m all for regrowing lost or damaged organs via cloning. Full-grown people, however, are another matter entirely.


Title: Re: The clones are coming
Post by: Toka on January 18, 2008, 06:29:15 pm
yesterday in the german news in tv, they sayed that england is starting to mix human dna with animal dna.
they putt the human dna in the eggcells of pigs. its only allowed for science and the beings made this
way have to be killed 15 days after the creation. the purpose is to produce a creature that can deliver
organs that human bodies do not *eeerrg* i dont now how to say in english, it must mean something like
that the human bodies whould exept it as its own. pics are geneticly the nearst to humans after monkeys.
so, even if they dont grow up, human-animal hybrid beeings are officielly existing.

i dont know what to think of this. at one site, i whould love to see if those creatures whould be intelligent
in a human like way, on the other site, i think it could be a ruthless way to create human like beeings
without human rights. that whould be horror.

has anything of this been broud in your countrys news?


Title: Re: The clones are coming
Post by: Dancing Fungus on January 18, 2008, 06:50:58 pm
The age of freaks is upon us, brothers!
I envision a day when one of us will be playing super melee with a either centaur or a squid with legs.

Did anyone hear about how scientists have announced that it is possible [even with very basic equipment] to create ANY kind of organism that uses ANY characteristic of anything found on Earth.  All it takes is some fiddling with the gene structure and combining everything in such a way that it all works. They claim it might be easy enough that if you understand genetics you could be making bizarre critters in your garage. Not all the problems have been worked out yet, but they're getting there.
This is no joke, I read the article, but sadly, I cannot find it again.

Do you know what this means? We could actually MAKE Ur-quan!!! Just take some caterpillar genes and combine them with some genes from a cephalopod [or something else Ur-quan-like] and insert the proper genetic material for size and intelligence.
And if you don't want Ur-quan, we could try to make Fwiffo!


Title: Re: The clones are coming
Post by: Zeracles on January 18, 2008, 09:39:04 pm
I want a pet dragon, breathing fire and all.
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ANY kind of organism that uses ANY characteristic of anything found on Earth
Damn.


Title: Re: The clones are coming
Post by: Resh Aleph on January 19, 2008, 04:25:42 am
You know what experiment would really fascinate me?

Clone Albert Einstein many times.

Give the babies for adoption in all sorts of families all over the world. Rich, poor, scientific, ignorant, religious, democratic, communist... everything. And most importantly, don't tell the parents that it's Einstein (or interfere with their lives in any way).

See what happens. I've got a hunch we'd be surprised.

Did anyone hear about how scientists have announced that it is possible [even with very basic equipment] to create ANY kind of organism that uses ANY characteristic of anything found on Earth.

That's pretty ridiculous. Genes work in such crazy seemingly-random ways, that you are almost certain to kill anything you try to engineer (which is why movies like I Am Legend make me go ::)).

Scientists still have a long way to go in genetic engineering, just like in brain engineering. I'm afraid we were all born too early. :(


Title: Re: The clones are coming
Post by: MasterNinja on January 19, 2008, 04:31:51 am
deliver
organs that human bodies do not *eeerrg*
reject?    is it as simple as that?

I'm afraid I'm German too, so I am not sure...

That's pretty ridiculous. Genes work in such crazy seemingly-random ways, that you are almost certain to kill anything you try to engineer
However, scientist did manage to make a potatoe (or was it onion?), which produces spider web...
They hope this could be used for bullet-proof vests, or in bridge building, and other things, as soon as they can produce it in a large scale.


Title: Re: The clones are coming
Post by: Lukipela on January 19, 2008, 09:18:24 am
I want a pet dragon, breathing fire and all.
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ANY kind of organism that uses ANY characteristic of anything found on Earth
Damn.

Just combine the genes of some bacteria that produce methane, some bacteria that survive high temperatures, an electric eel , a komodo dragon and an eagle. Easy really.

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That's pretty ridiculous. Genes work in such crazy seemingly-random ways, that you are almost certain to kill anything you try to engineer (which is why movies like I Am Legend make me go Roll Eyes).

Wait, what? We engineer viruses and bacteria every day, nothing odd with that. Larger animals and bigger changes are beyond our reach, but creating a super-virus isn't.


Title: Re: The clones are coming
Post by: Resh Aleph on January 19, 2008, 10:12:39 am
The last time I checked, nanotech (assuming it even deals with objects as small as viruses) was in its infancy, and had no applications. What RTyp06 said. :P But even if we had good nanotech, what happens in that film makes no sense at all (http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/worst_case_scenarios/4236920.html?page=4). Especially the changes made to the Infected.

Yeah, a random mutation in a cancer-curing virus gives people an unrealistic combination of strength, durability and agility. ::) And they have this new instinct to kill everything alive except for the Infected. ::) And light makes their skin go up in flames and kills them instantly. ::)::)  And their appearance and vocal cords change drastically in a way that looks and sounds scary. ::)::)::)


Title: Re: The clones are coming
Post by: RTyp06 on January 19, 2008, 02:47:47 pm
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Wait, what? We engineer viruses and bacteria every day, nothing odd with that. Larger animals and bigger changes are beyond our reach, but creating a super-virus isn't.

Uhh.. Except that a super virus or bacteria is just a one or two point mutaion to the existing virus' genome and only represents a micro or slight change to what already exists. So we are only artificially engineering what they already do naturally.




Title: Re: The clones are coming
Post by: countchocula86 on January 19, 2008, 09:54:13 pm
Viruses and Bacteria are fairly well documented.

Manipulating bacteria can be straightforward simply because their are numerous ways in which bacteria will take up foreign DNA and incorporate it in their genomes (to produce proteins) such as bacteriophages, plasmids, etc. As well, bacteria dont really post-translationally modify proteins, so they can produce things fully functionally.


Title: Re: The clones are coming
Post by: Toka on January 19, 2008, 10:44:24 pm
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reject?    is it as simple as that?

yes. that is what i meant.

i invite you to our german studivz.net star control group :)
with you.. we whould be four people :P

That's pretty ridiculous. Genes work in such crazy seemingly-random ways, that you are almost certain to kill anything you try to engineer

yeah.. most things will die soon or wont even beginn to split cells, but if you try the same thing a thousend times, maybe
one will be alive.. at least for a while. for example, they needed more than twohundred trys to get a cloned sheep that stayed alive.
(the one called "dolly")


Title: Re: The clones are coming
Post by: Lukipela on January 20, 2008, 01:26:01 pm
Loads of stuff about the movie

That's not what I was replying to though. You said

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That's pretty ridiculous. Genes work in such crazy seemingly-random ways, that you are almost certain to kill anything you try to engineer

And that isn't true. As Rtyp06 said, we've plenty of modified bacteria and viruses, mostly modified to produce stuff they haven't done before. We can cut and paste in the DNA of E.Coli to give them different characteristics. Sure, often we'll take the easy way and just add plasmids, and we're not taking one bacteria and changing it another, but it is still genetic engineering. We can even do this with plants, which is where GM crops come in. We can paste genes to make glowy stuff into pigs and make glowing pigs. Genetic engineering does not mean "Create human size creatures from scratch".

I'm not saying that we can make super viruses that make people into psychopathic albinos or create completely new animals (as you seem to have inferred), just saying that your claim any tampering with genes is "almost certain to kill" is incorrect.

EDIT:

Regarding the movie (since that seems to be what you really want to tak to) I agree that the random mutation seems very impossible. A set of mutations could have caused some of the symptoms there, but not the rest is just fluff for the movie. But then again, how exciting would the movie be if the only thing Smith happens upon in the city was corpses and some shambling dregs? Sci-fi sometimes (well often) calls for suspension of disbelief.  Magical viruses, phase shields, robots from the future. and so forth is what makes sci-fi sci-fi.


Title: Re: The clones are coming
Post by: Resh Aleph on January 20, 2008, 07:34:58 pm
That quote is a bit out of context... Here's a better one:

Did anyone hear about how scientists have announced that it is possible [even with very basic equipment] to create ANY kind of organism that uses ANY characteristic of anything found on Earth.

That's pretty ridiculous. Genes work in such crazy seemingly-random ways, that you are almost certain to kill anything you try to engineer

So yeah, they have been messing with bacteria for decades... but he wasn't talking about such simple organisms, or about simple changes.

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A set of mutations could have caused some of the symptoms there

Like what, hair falling off after a few minutes of infection? Come on... nothing in that virus is even remotely reasonable. :P

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Magical viruses, phase shields, robots from the future. and so forth is what makes sci-fi sci-fi.

I don't think sci-fi should be "magical". That's fantasy's job. Battlestar Galactica, for instance, does not deserve being called sci-fi, if you're asking me. Star Trek is sci-fi, because it at least tries to maintain some internal logic.

I don't have a problem with hypothetical futuristic technologies in sci-fi. That's fun. But I don't like it when they take stuff we know a lot about, and make it work in ridiculous ways. It's un-educating. :(


Title: Re: The clones are coming
Post by: Lukipela on January 20, 2008, 07:51:33 pm
So yeah, they have been messing with bacteria for decades... but he wasn't talking about such simple organisms, or about simple changes.

Oops, you're right. My mistake, I missed what you were replying to.


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Like what, hair falling off after a few minutes of infection? Come on... nothing in that virus is even remotely reasonable. :P

Intellectual and physical regression could certainly be possible, although they'd probably not look like portrayed. Increased strength and aggression would be quite possible, but not for extended periods of time like in the movie.Not to the degree portrayed in the movie of course but still. The light thing was really absurd though. I mean, there are people out there that don't ctually have any pigment, and they don't start smoking in sunshine.

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I don't think sci-fi should be "magical". That's fantasy's job. Battlestar Galactica, for instance, does not deserve being called sci-fi, if you're asking me. Star Trek is sci-fi, because it at least tries to maintain some internal logic.

This is off topic and completely besides the point, but could you point me to a site with the inconsistencies in BG listed? I freely admit that I haven't watched it a lot, but it did seem much more realistic tech wise than Trek to me.

I don't have a problem with hypothetical futuristic technologies in sci-fi. That's fun. But I don't like it when they take stuff we know a lot about, and make it work in ridiculous ways. It's un-educating. :(
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Title: Re: The clones are coming
Post by: Resh Aleph on January 21, 2008, 08:09:46 am
Intellectual and physical regression could certainly be possible, although they'd probably not look like portrayed. Increased strength and aggression would be quite possible, but not for extended periods of time like in the movie.

For such strength they'd need huge muscles. They'd all pretty much have to look like gorillas, and thus couldn't possibly be as fast and agile as they are. Constantly hitting a bulletproof glass wall, without taking a scratch, is absurd (even if they had super-bones, which would make them even more clumsy). The point is, if such superhuman abilities were really possible/worth it, evolution would've come up with them. The human body is an outstanding machine already.

Another huge problem is how fast it all happens after they get infected, as I mentioned with the hair. But the main problem is how unlikely it is for a virus to mutate into something that does such an outstanding job. Hell, it's even less likely than losing your dog-friend, being found by other immune humans and finding the cure for the virus, all in the same two days (after 1,000 days of nothing). Oh, sorry, that's God. I guess God made the virus mutate that way too, then... ::)

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This is off topic and completely besides the point, but could you point me to a site with the inconsistencies in BG listed? I freely admit that I haven't watched it a lot, but it did seem much more realistic tech wise than Trek to me.

Oh, the tech is fine. I actually like that aspect of the series. It's all this mystical religious future-telling crap that drives me crazy. :P


Title: Re: The clones are coming
Post by: Novus on January 21, 2008, 09:33:22 am
Oh, the tech is fine. I actually like that aspect of the series. It's all this mystical religious future-telling crap that drives me crazy. :P
Never underestimate the power of a interstellar conspiracy to make prophecy appear to come true if it serves their needs to have people believe in it.


Title: Re: The clones are coming
Post by: Toka on January 21, 2008, 01:43:02 pm
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For such strength they'd need huge muscles. They'd all pretty much have to look like gorillas, and thus couldn't possibly be as fast and agile as they are.

if they whould feel no pain, they whould be able to move very fast und have much strenght.
we all have much more strenght than we can aktually use but the pain stops us to do so,
because the muscles whould suffer damage.

but yes.. when jumping againist that glass for several times, they whould get hurt realy bad.


Title: Re: The clones are coming
Post by: Lukipela on January 21, 2008, 09:13:43 pm
You know, it feels like you're not reading the same conversation as I am. Now I might be wrong, but when I read you replies, it seems that you are arguing with someone who claims that the movie could be true and actually is realistic. And I haver't seen anyone like that in the thread so far. Are you just venting your frustations, or what?

For such strength they'd need huge muscles. They'd all pretty much have to look like gorillas, and thus couldn't possibly be as fast and agile as they are. Constantly hitting a bulletproof glass wall, without taking a scratch, is absurd (even if they had super-bones, which would make them even more clumsy). The point is, if such superhuman abilities were really possible/worth it, evolution would've come up with them. The human body is an outstanding machine already.
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Which is probably why i said something along the lines of "Increased strength and aggression would be quite possible, but not for extended periods of time like in the movie.Not to the degree portrayed in the movie of course but still." rather than "Oh yeah they'd totally be able to rip concrete to shreds and headbutt glass"

You don't need gigantic pecs to become far more powerful and agressive than a normal human is. Flush the system with enough testosterone, adrenaline and other such things, and you will be very strong, and extremely agressive. Of course, you won't survive for years on end in that state, or tear holes in walls.

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Another huge problem is how fast it all happens after they get infected, as I mentioned with the hair. But the main problem is how unlikely it is for a virus to mutate into something that does such an outstanding job.
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Ebola is one of the faster viruses we know of, with a kill time of three or so days in extreme cases (the mean is somewhere aroudn ten thhough). I suppose the writers just figured their new virus would be much faster without taking into consideration the troubles you run into when producing large amounts of any microscopic creature quickly.

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Hell, it's even less likely than losing your dog-friend, being found by other immune humans and finding the cure for the virus, all in the same two days (after 1,000 days of nothing). Oh, sorry, that's God. I guess God made the virus mutate that way too, then... ::)

The God references did seem quite tacked on for the sake of just being there. But i enjoyed the whole "something didn't tell you to come here, I did on the radio!" exchange.

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Oh, the tech is fine. I actually like that aspect of the series. It's all this mystical religious future-telling crap that drives me crazy. :P

So did you dislike Star Wars for it's mystical force right up to the introduction of midichlorians? If so, you and Will Smith are both very alone in different ways.


Title: Re: The clones are coming
Post by: Resh Aleph on January 22, 2008, 07:54:56 am
Sorry, I just like discussing realism. :( I'm trying to argue that the movie is more than just somewhat senseless.

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You don't need gigantic pecs to become far more powerful and agressive than a normal human is.

That I'll disagree with (the powerful bit)... Without weapons, a gorilla will finish off even the most drugged psychotic body-builder. They seemed to possess such strength in the film (and they're not even body-builders).

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But i enjoyed the whole "something didn't tell you to come here, I did on the radio!" exchange.

Yeah! Go Will. :)

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So did you dislike Star Wars for it's mystical force right up to the introduction of midichlorians? If so, you and Will Smith are both very alone in different ways.

Star Wars is a hybrid. The Force is not sci-fi, it's fantasy. "Midichlorians" aren't supposed to be a scientific thing.

Moreover, the Force isn't entirely "religious": even if all you do is be aggressive, the mere fact you were born with many midichlorians will sometimes allow you to kick a behaving Jedi's ass.

So Star Wars is just kinda cool as sci-fantasy. But that doesn't mean there aren't any annoying inconsistencies (especially in the lame prequels).

We're way off-topic. :P


Title: Re: The clones are coming
Post by: Lukipela on January 22, 2008, 08:09:41 pm
Sorry, I just like discussing realism. :( I'm trying to argue that the movie is more than just somewhat senseless.

No worries. I've never reflected on it before, but I suppose the ability to suspend disbelief isn't something everyone has. Sure, I'll notice when a movie does something illogical, but it doesn't stop my enjoyment.

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That I'll disagree with (the powerful bit)... Without weapons, a gorilla will finish off even the most drugged psychotic body-builder. They seemed to possess such strength in the film (and they're not even body-builders).

Lucky for my statement a normal human isn't a gorilla then, isn't it? :) To clarify, a virus that somehow caused your system to be flushed with adrenaline, testosterone (and since we're moving in the sphere of extremely unlikely events, why not crystal meth) would make you very very strong and aggressive. During my time as a bartender, I've seen methheads and steroid junkies do some pretty incredible thing. You'd beat pretty much any human hands down. But as i said, that still doesn't mean you can head-butt bulletproof glass (or fight a gorilla). Also, you'd not stay alive for very long. A lot of that strength comes from not feeling any pain. It doesn't make your muscles invincible though. Someone with a disease like that would bust up a few people, push a few cars over (but not lift them, like a gorilla could) and break down a few doors. At that stage, not only would he have ripped a lot of muscles and broken a few bones, but his heart would be ready to give out and his liver and kidneys wouldn't bee too hot.

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Yeah! Go Will. :)

Too bad he is supposedly a Scientologist, eh?

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Star Wars is a hybrid. The Force is not sci-fi, it's fantasy. "Midichlorians" aren't supposed to be a scientific thing.

maybe you should imagine BG to be a hybrid too then? After all, they have strange dieties, weird powers and all the things that go with fantasy. Sure, the orks are prettier than usual, but you'll just have to live with that.

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Moreover, the Force isn't entirely "religious": even if all you do is be aggressive, the mere fact you were born with many midichlorians will sometimes allow you to kick a behaving Jedi's ass.

Sorry, you thought you just didn't lie supernatural things. So magic is alright, al long as gods aren't involved? Fair enugh i suppose.

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We're way off-topic. :P

Ther's not really much to discuss on-topic, but here goes.

If we manage to create clones (like the androsynth), i wonder if we'll actually leave them looking human. I think that'd be a uncomfortable reminder of their innate humanity. I'd think it was more likely that after the first successful clones were made and our control over DNA is good enough to give them desirable characteristics, we'd make them ugly. No ones going to feel sorry for a hideous pitiful monster that keeps slobbering and farting. oh, and make them much like stereotypical denizens of the internet. Really good at a few things, but horribly inept socially and with bad body odour. that ought to top them from ever banding together. they'll more likely be fighting over whether some movie was good or not.


Title: Re: The clones are coming
Post by: Resh Aleph on January 23, 2008, 09:22:00 am
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Sorry, you thought you just didn't lie supernatural things. So magic is alright, al long as gods aren't involved? Fair enugh i suppose.

I don't mind gods. If I actually saw Zeus & co. doing stuff in the series, then it would indeed be sci-fantasy. But there's no concrete "magic" going on. The show tries to appear realistic. Some people actually believe that similar things exist. It  perpetuates superstition. :(

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If we manage to create clones (like the androsynth), i wonder if we'll actually leave them looking human. I think that'd be a uncomfortable reminder of their innate humanity. I'd think it was more likely that after the first successful clones were made and our control over DNA is good enough to give them desirable characteristics, we'd make them ugly. No ones going to feel sorry for a hideous pitiful monster that keeps slobbering and farting. oh, and make them much like stereotypical denizens of the internet. Really good at a few things, but horribly inept socially and with bad body odour. that ought to top them from ever banding together. they'll more likely be fighting over whether some movie was good or not.

That sounds rather hellish! What's wrong with keeping their human characteristics intact, and treating them like normal children? They could become the new humans.


Title: Re: The clones are coming
Post by: Elvish Pillager on January 23, 2008, 12:00:41 pm
Humans 2.0!


Title: Re: The clones are coming
Post by: Draxas on January 23, 2008, 05:01:05 pm
Discussions of human cloning always make me laugh, because nobody seems to realize that we've had human clones running around for decades. What's that? I'm a wacko conspiracy theorist? No, not quite.

I'm assuming everyone's familiar with in-vitro fertilization (IVF), the technology used to make so-called test-tube babies for folks who can't get pregnant on their own. IVF has been used to make human clones since its inception. Once the egg is fertilized in the lab, in order to increase the odds of a succesful pregnancy, doctors will split off multiple cells from the newly dividing progenitor. When this is done very early in the process (even before the blastocyst phase), the divided cells aren't differentiated enough to have specialized yet, and will develop into another embryo. This is typically done one or two dozen times, and several of these are returned to the mother's (or surrogate's) uterus for implantation, with the others typically frozen incase the couple wants to have another child in the future. The end result is that any children created using this method will be genetically identical, thus fulfilling the definition of clones.

I think that's where everyone is getting tripped up. The ONLY thing implied by calling an organism a clone, is that it is genetically identical to the organism it is being compared to. I'm guessing all of the weird implications of genetic engineering and other strangeness when speaking of clones, is a combination of people's ignorance of the scientific definition of the term, and the protrayal of clones in sci-fi and other popular media.


Title: Re: The clones are coming
Post by: Lukipela on January 23, 2008, 05:43:43 pm
I don't mind gods. If I actually saw Zeus & co. doing stuff in the series, then it would indeed be sci-fantasy. But there's no concrete "magic" going on. The show tries to appear realistic. Some people actually believe that similar things exist. It  perpetuates superstition. :(

Isn't it fairly realistic that gods don't do anything though?

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That sounds rather hellish! What's wrong with keeping their human characteristics intact, and treating them like normal children? They could become the new humans.

Because they are supposed to be workers and slaves. If they look cute, people will feel sorry for them. If they are smart, they will plot against their slave masters. If they are too perfect, they'll eventually take over and relegate the former masters to slave rank.. Which, in case you missed it, is us. Sure we can do it your way and have them take off with our orbital platform after they throw off the shackles of oppression. Or we can do it my way and be able to crew our own Guardians with expendable cannon fodder rather than risk our precious lives in battle.

I mean, if you're not willing to put some effort into holding slaves, you might as well not have any.


Title: Re: The clones are coming
Post by: Resh Aleph on January 23, 2008, 07:54:50 pm
Isn't it fairly realistic that gods don't do anything though?

It's the religion-style prophecies/miracles that bug me. Some people might actually find them un-far-fetched. :-\

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Because they are supposed to be workers and slaves.

Oh. Well, I don't see that happening in the real world. :P But we might one day create AI robots which lack human urges/emotions like curiosity, fulfillment, enjoyment, suffering, etc., and somehow give them the will to do what we ask, and general morals. That sounds more reasonable for slaves.


Title: Re: The clones are coming
Post by: Lukipela on January 24, 2008, 10:43:58 am
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Discussions of human cloning always make me laugh, because nobody seems to realize that we've had human clones running around for decades. What's that? I'm a wacko conspiracy theorist? No, not quite.

I'm assuming everyone's familiar with in-vitro fertilization (IVF), the technology used to make so-called test-tube babies for folks who can't get pregnant on their own. IVF has been used to make human clones since its inception. Once the egg is fertilized in the lab, in order to increase the odds of a succesful pregnancy, doctors will split off multiple cells from the newly dividing progenitor. When this is done very early in the process (even before the blastocyst phase), the divided cells aren't differentiated enough to have specialized yet, and will develop into another embryo. This is typically done one or two dozen times, and several of these are returned to the mother's (or surrogate's) uterus for implantation, with the others typically frozen incase the couple wants to have another child in the future. The end result is that any children created using this method will be genetically identical, thus fulfilling the definition of clones.

I think that's where everyone is getting tripped up. The ONLY thing implied by calling an organism a clone, is that it is genetically identical to the organism it is being compared to. I'm guessing all of the weird implications of genetic engineering and other strangeness when speaking of clones, is a combination of people's ignorance of the scientific definition of the term, and the protrayal of clones in sci-fi and other popular media.

Discussions of human cloning always make me laugh, because nobody seems to realize that we've had human clones running around for millennia. What's that? I'm a wacko conspiracy theorist? No, not quite. I'm doing a literal interpretation? Oh yes.

I’m assuming everyone is familiar with sexual intercourse (SEX), the process used for production of so called babies by folks who can get pregnant on their own. Once the egg is fertilized inside the woman, it generally matures happily. However, sometimes during a successful pregnancy, the cells will split at a very early stage. When this happens early in the process (even before the blastocyst phase), the divided cells aren’t differentiated enough to have specialized yet, and will develop into another embryo. This typically happens only once, but can happen several times. The result of such an event is called a monozygote, but they are commonly known as “twins”, “triplets” and so forth. The end result is that any children created using this method will be genetically identical, thus fulfilling the definition of clones.

I think that's where everyone except me is getting tripped up. The ONLY thing implied by calling an organism a clone, is that it is genetically identical to the organism it is being compared to. It is in no way dependent on what process is used to achieve this clone, be it a naturally occuring or man-made process. I'm guessing all of the weird implications of  genetic engineering or any other human interference and other strangeness when speaking of clones, is a combination of people's ignorance of the scientific definition of the term, and the portrayal of clones in sci-fi and other popular media such as this forum.

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It's the religion-style prophecies/miracles that bug me. Some people might actually find them un-far-fetched. Undecided

So you don't have a problem with the show, but with what other people think. Seems unfair to rag on a tv-show just because you disagree with people on something that is portrayed in the show. Also, I know you're really gung-ho in your opposition to religion and it's brainwashing influences, but I very much doubt that anyone in BG's target audience is going to become religious from watching a show fileld with sexy killer robots.

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Oh. Well, I don't see that happening in the real world. Tongue But we might one day create AI robots which lack human urges/emotions like curiosity, fulfillment, enjoyment, suffering, etc., and somehow give them the will to do what we ask, and general morals. That sounds more reasonable for slaves.

Nor do I. But we were supposed to discuss cloning and the future remember? Besides, with machines there's always the risk that they "connect to the mainframe" and "disappear into the cybernet" to plot our demise. Biologicals are stuck in their fleshy prisons. Also, if we engineer them without hand and feet (but with nerves for them) and only allow them to wear prostetics whilst working), they can't even hit us during their spare time.


Title: Re: The clones are coming
Post by: Draxas on January 24, 2008, 06:06:02 pm
I suppose I should have expected the scathing Luki reply? ;)

Obviously identical twins (or more) are clones of each other, but that's a natural process. I mentioned IVF specifically because it's an artificial process, has been around for a relatively long while, and has been generating clones since well before people started to get scared and/or outraged about the prospect of "human clones" walking among us. It's something (at least as far as I'm concerned) that really sheds light on how silly the whole discussion on the ethics of "human cloning" actually is.

The point is that most people seem to think that "clone = superman" for some reason. If you wanted to debate the ethics of genetically engineering those clones, however, that's a topic worth some serious discussion.


Title: Re: The clones are coming
Post by: Lukipela on January 24, 2008, 07:18:16 pm
I suppose I should have expected the scathing Luki reply? ;)

Sorry, I just couldn't resist. It wasn't meant to be scathing as much as funny though. No hard feelings I hope?

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Obviously identical twins (or more) are clones of each other, but that's a natural process. I mentioned IVF specifically because it's an artificial process, has been around for a relatively long while, and has been generating clones since well before people started to get scared and/or outraged about the prospect of "human clones" walking among us. It's something (at least as far as I'm concerned) that really sheds light on how silly the whole discussion on the ethics of "human cloning" actually is.

Twins are human clones as well, at least technically. But I understand what you mean. Both twins and IVF clones are very interesting in another way though. They demonstrate that even if your genes are identical, you become different.

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The point is that most people seem to think that "clone = superman" for some reason. If you wanted to debate the ethics of genetically engineering those clones, however, that's a topic worth some serious discussion.

I think that's mostly because when people think of clones, they imagine production facilities, rather than just cloning a regular egg and implanting it in a regular person. And if you have huge place where people roll out on a conveyor belt, surely you must have the ability to improve their genetics as well! Or so people think.


Title: Re: The clones are coming
Post by: Resh Aleph on January 24, 2008, 09:04:59 pm
Isn't cloning someone after the embryonic stage the whole idea?

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So you don't have a problem with the show, but with what other people think.

I have a problem with the show riding on the popularity of superstition, and increasing it.


Title: Re: The clones are coming
Post by: Draxas on January 25, 2008, 04:55:41 pm
I suppose I should have expected the scathing Luki reply? ;)

Sorry, I just couldn't resist. It wasn't meant to be scathing as much as funny though. No hard feelings I hope?

Of course not. What's the point of getting your knickers in a twist over an internet debate?

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Obviously identical twins (or more) are clones of each other, but that's a natural process. I mentioned IVF specifically because it's an artificial process, has been around for a relatively long while, and has been generating clones since well before people started to get scared and/or outraged about the prospect of "human clones" walking among us. It's something (at least as far as I'm concerned) that really sheds light on how silly the whole discussion on the ethics of "human cloning" actually is.

Twins are human clones as well, at least technically. But I understand what you mean. Both twins and IVF clones are very interesting in another way though. They demonstrate that even if your genes are identical, you become different.

Well, somewhat anyway. Some of the studies that have been done over the past few decades on identical twins show some very bizarre similarities among twins that grew up in completely different environments. But that's another topic for another day.

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The point is that most people seem to think that "clone = superman" for some reason. If you wanted to debate the ethics of genetically engineering those clones, however, that's a topic worth some serious discussion.

I think that's mostly because when people think of clones, they imagine production facilities, rather than just cloning a regular egg and implanting it in a regular person. And if you have huge place where people roll out on a conveyor belt, surely you must have the ability to improve their genetics as well! Or so people think.

Another trapping of sci-fi. Don't people realize that the technology and knowledge of how to do this is well beyond our grasp? I'm fairly certain we still can't gestate a baby of any mammalian species without an actual surrogate mother to carry it. So, barring a species-wide mentality shift towards Tleilaxu (if you don't get the reference, please do yourself a favor and pick up the Dune series by Frank Herbert... or at least the first few, anyway), this idea of a massive clone factory is pretty farfetched.

Hence my point. I think 99% of peoples' aversion to the idea of cloning is bred from a lack of real understainding, and being indoctrinated with all kinds of sci-fi nonsense over the years... But then, I suppose the fear of things we don't understand is a historically very human trait.


Title: Re: The clones are coming
Post by: Lukipela on February 03, 2008, 06:31:14 pm
Isn't cloning someone after the embryonic stage the whole idea?

Er, in what context? The definition of cloning that we were discussing with Draxas (if so, no), or just general sci-fi type cloning?

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I have a problem with the show riding on the popularity of superstition, and increasing it.

You'd be more honest if you just said "I vehemently dislike religion, so anything that contains it really ticks me off to the extent that I redefine genres in my head". Or do you want to explain exactly how a show about sexy psycho killer robots, nuclear holocausts, space battles and so forth is "riding on the popularity of superstition"? And a study in the number of people who have converted to "Lords of Kobolism" would go along way to showing me how it "increases superstition".

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Of course not. What's the point of getting your knickers in a twist over an internet debate?

A lot of people do though.

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Well, somewhat anyway. Some of the studies that have been done over the past few decades on identical twins show some very bizarre similarities among twins that grew up in completely different environments. But that's another topic for another day.

Sorry, sloppy phrasing on my part. Of courses the exact same genes make them similar. Even separated, they'll often be very alike. But it rarely (if ever), makes them completely identical, which is how we think of clones.

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Another trapping of sci-fi. Don't people realize that the technology and knowledge of how to do this is well beyond our grasp?

Now I'm curious. Do you often get into debates with people who think that we have such technology, or would you just like everyone to start cloning debates with the preface "I know we don't have this technology yet, but when we do"

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I'm fairly certain we still can't gestate a baby of any mammalian species without an actual surrogate mother to carry it. So, barring a species-wide mentality shift towards Tleilaxu (if you don't get the reference, please do yourself a favor and pick up the Dune series by Frank Herbert... or at least the first few, anyway), this idea of a massive clone factory is pretty farfetched.

Biotech moves forward with freaky speed. It's hard to say where we will be in 50 - 100 years.

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Hence my point. I think 99% of peoples' aversion to the idea of cloning is bred from a lack of real understainding, and being indoctrinated with all kinds of sci-fi nonsense over the years... But then, I suppose the fear of things we don't understand is a historically very human trait.

I thought your point was simply that people aren't using the strictly correct definition of clone (which you didn't either). Discussions on cloning must involve assumptions of technological leaps, otherwise there would be no discussion and we'd all just sit around reading Nature or something. It is usually better to discuss something before it happens rather than after. It makes you prepared.



Title: Re: The clones are coming
Post by: UAF on February 03, 2008, 08:15:57 pm
Hmm hmm... not much to add.

I suspect that you can use one mammalian species (if close enough) as surrogate mother for another species. So "my mommy the monkey" is possible (inaccurate though, not monkey, of course, but primate. But it doesn't rhyme as well). I might add that "Your mom is a pig" might happen too. I'm not familiar with the pig's reproductive system enough, all I know is that their hearts work.


Also, something that NO ONE here discussed since the second post, and you might be interested to know if you didn't (yey, I'm original) is this:
This "mixing" of human and pig DNA is not the mixing one thinks about. It's not half Human chromosomes and half pigs (Done with mice and humans BTW in the past for other purpose, ask me about it if you want).
What is happening is that a complete human nucleus is inserted into a pig's egg cell which have "pig's" DNA in its mitochondria!!!!
This is important, because in many ways it's just the mitochondria - those little ex-germs that we use as power stations. The fully grown creature therefore, to the best of my knowledge, will look and in fact BE exactly like a normal human.
The only possible differences will be related to power. If pig's mitochondria are less good then human's it'll be weaker, if they're better it'll be stronger. Stamina BTW, much less effect on raw lift-a-car-over-the-head strength.

BTW, I'm pretty sure that birds DO have superior mitochondria to human's. I say we move to them!


Title: Re: The clones are coming
Post by: Resh Aleph on February 03, 2008, 09:24:57 pm
Isn't cloning someone after the embryonic stage the whole idea?

Er, in what context? The definition of cloning that we were discussing with Draxas (if so, no), or just general sci-fi type cloning?

Neither, I meant creating an embryo with an adult cell's DNA (a la Dolly). Isn't that what the original post was about?

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Or do you want to explain exactly how a show about sexy psycho killer robots, nuclear holocausts, space battles and so forth is "riding on the popularity of superstition"?

I am referring to the show's vehement obsession with God, oracles, temples, prophecies, etc.

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And a study in the number of people who have converted to "Lords of Kobolism" would go along way to showing me how it "increases superstition".

All I'm arguing is that it makes the above things more popular, even if subtly and subconsciously. It can make people find them cooler. I don't want that in sci-fi, science is opposite.


Title: Re: The clones are coming
Post by: Draxas on February 04, 2008, 05:35:13 pm
Now I'm curious. Do you often get into debates with people who think that we have such technology, or would you just like everyone to start cloning debates with the preface "I know we don't have this technology yet, but when we do"

Some days, I'm amazed how pervasive ignorance is. Hell, half the basis for any political debate on this subject (or anything even remotely related; see stem cells) seems to be based in just this sort of flavor of ignorance. I don't know if things are different outside of the US in that regard, but around here it seems like conviction counts for at least as much as understanding, if not more.

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Biotech moves forward with freaky speed. It's hard to say where we will be in 50 - 100 years.

Of course. However, the announcement of something to the effect of an artificial womb would be much more alarming to me than anything that's happened regarding cloning. Combined with IVF, that would almost completely remove the "human" from "human reproduction," and I could see how that could head in ethically and morally questionable directions very quickly.

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I thought your point was simply that people aren't using the strictly correct definition of clone (which you didn't either). Discussions on cloning must involve assumptions of technological leaps, otherwise there would be no discussion and we'd all just sit around reading Nature or something. It is usually better to discuss something before it happens rather than after. It makes you prepared.

The "strict" definition thing was more or less a nitpicky, semi-humorous stab at an attempt to freak out people who are afraid of the idea of clones (or at least get people to think about the concept a little harder, anyway). THEY WALK AMONG US EVEN NOW! Or something... I've been known to have a weird sense of humor at times. Regardless, it was just an attempt to make people think about the idea of clones a little harder, because enough people are scared of the word because they associate it with sci-fi zaniness instead of the reality of what we are and are not capable of.

There will, of course, be advances in the future, but the direction of those advances is a matter of (mostly wild) speculation. Most debates on this subject seem to have a sort of "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" vibe to them: People just sort of assume that we're going to have clones growing in vats of nutrient fluid, springing forth as fully formed adults, and replacing the "real thing" without anyone noticing. Of course, these would be genetically modified supermen, who would then revolt against humankind... You can see how ludicrous this idea is just from my short description. And yet, this topic took that tack right from the first post.


Title: Re: The clones are coming
Post by: Lukipela on February 04, 2008, 08:13:46 pm
Neither, I meant creating an embryo with an adult cell's DNA (a la Dolly). Isn't that what the original post was about?

Ah right. That's certainly what the thread was about before we veered off course.

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I am referring to the show's vehement obsession with God, oracles, temples, prophecies, etc.

Sure you're not confusing it with your own? ;) To be fair though, I've msotly seen parts of season 1 and 2, maybe the third season becomes more mystical. I thought it was a fresh take on an old genre to include not only politics, but spirituality as well.

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All I'm arguing is that it makes the above things more popular, even if subtly and subconsciously. It can make people find them cooler. I don't want that in sci-fi, science is opposite.

Ah, so you're in the same camp as people who don't want alcohol, swearing or violence portrayed in movies because it makes it seem "cool".


Title: Re: The clones are coming
Post by: Resh Aleph on February 04, 2008, 09:21:01 pm
Ah, so you're in the same camp as people who don't want alcohol, swearing or violence portrayed in movies because it makes it seem "cool".

I certainly don't like it when movies portray those things as cool. But this stuff is generally frowned upon in real life anyway.


Title: Re: The clones are coming
Post by: NECRO-99 on March 04, 2008, 08:18:48 am
The clones are coming?

The clones are here! (Or back, or somesuch...) :)


Title: Re: The clones are coming
Post by: Lukipela on March 06, 2008, 04:27:05 pm
The clones are coming?

The clones are here! (Or back, or somesuch...) :)

Hey Dthunk. Long time no see.