The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

I mean, really. The Greenies could use some help. I know the battle thralls are not very powerful compared to the likes of the Ur-Quan, but some of the tougher thralls (Like the Yehat, for instance) could mean victory to the Kzer-Za. And that means everyone gets to be safe instead of dead.

Part of the "rules of engagement" state that no side can have any help...The Melnorme will tell you this, as well as the Ur-Quan.

Well then it should be obvious to the Ur-Quan that they're going to lose badly before the battle even begins. The Kohr-Ah have roughly the same fleet size, but they're genetically engineered to be the better fighters. Ur-Quan could only defeat Kohr-Ah with a superior strategy (LIKE HAVING THEIR THRALLS HELP THEM) or superior technology (The Sa-Matra, and that's been done before).

Being the part of the Ur-Quan that was engineered to be scientists, they probably figured they'd have built a better ship than the Kohr-Ah.

It's also obvious that it takes much more resources to setup a system for subjugating every race in the galaxy, and its associated bureaucracy, than showing up, killing everything in sight, and moving on.

The missing part of the backstory that I've always wondered about was "where did their notion of conscripting slave races to do their fighting for them come from?"  Considering that their ideology is so xenophobic, it always struck me as a policy at odds with their nature.  And the fact that their bureaucracy regarding battle thralls was so corrupt and inefficient (which for the purposes of the game is good, if they had their act together the rebellion on the Earth starbase would not have gotten very far), it always made me think that they decided on the policy out of desperation.  Could they have known that they were going to lose the second conflict centuries before, and what made them realize it?

Oh, I forgot to take into consideration the whole Shofixti incident. 30% of the Ur-Quan Hierarchy was wiped out because they had amassed a fleet around Delta Gorno to kick the Shofixti into submission when the sun was blown up. The Kzer-Za might very well have defeated the Kohr-Ah if that hadn't happened. Then again, those loses were for the Hierarchy in general, and I imagine the Vux and Mycon were doing most of the dirty work in that area.

I don't think their system of controlling the Thralls was that inefficient, I mean, the Hierarchy managed to kick the crap out of the Alliance of Free Stars pretty well. I think it's just that in SC2, the Kzer-Za stopped caring about their Thralls because they were focusing entirely on fighting the Kohr-Ah. I mean really, they'd either Thralled or slave-shielded the entire Alliance except for the Arilou (who disappeared anyway) and the Shofixti (who were all a bunch of little crispy bits floating around Delta Gorno), and the other races in the Quadrant, the ZFP, the Utwig, the Supox, and the Druuge were leaving them alone. They didn't really NEED to command the Thralls. They were just focusing on fighting the Kohr-Ah.

Yes, most likely the Kzer-za were NOT 100% done with enslaving the quadrant. That's why there still are free races, and during doctrinal war some battlethralls have taken some liberties due lack of control.

And why greenies don't use sa-matra or slave races?

The whole doctrinal conflict was set up, because Kzer-za thought it's possible that Eternal doctrine might be the right way, instead of the Path of now and forever.

Once again, the Shofixti almost destroyed the Universe....those fuzzy little guys !

The battle thralls /were/ fighting for the Ur-Quan. They were on the Dreadnoughts as disposacrew.

And who would need paltry inferior alien craft, anyway! It might have been one of the 'rules of engagement'. However, they could have made the slaves crank out more Dreadnaughts, though... but if the Ur-Quan were sensible, they'd be less fun.

They were? Sounds iffy. Would anyone like to confirm or deny this? I know the Ur-Quans only had one of their species on each ship, but the rest of the crew could just be robotic or something ("autonomous fighters").

Oh yeah, and if the Kzer-za only put one of their guys on a dreadnought, you can pretty much guarantee the Kohr-Ah were doing the same thing. And there's no way the Kohr-Ah would ever let any lesser species on, so I assume that all Ur-Quan manage their ships with one living crew member.

I made a few typos, okay?

Well, IIRC, the rulebook for SC1 showed an Ur-Quan trying to shovel a spathi into an autonomous fighter. So...

>>They were? Sounds iffy. Would anyone like to confirm or deny this? I know the Ur-Quans only had one of their species on each ship, but the rest of the crew could just be robotic or something ("autonomous fighters").<<

The Ur-quan use thralls as crew members, and only the captain was an Ur-Quan.  Go here: http://www.classicgaming.com/starcontrol/sc1/urqtech.shtml
And look about halfway down the page.
That's ripped from the original SC1 manual, and that's were the info comes from, so it's true, and the Ur-Quan don't use robots as crew.

>>Oh yeah, and if the Kzer-za only put one of their guys on a dreadnought, you can pretty much guarantee the Kohr-Ah were doing the same thing. And there's no way the Kohr-Ah would ever let any lesser species on, so I assume that all Ur-Quan manage their ships with one living crew member.<<

How can you guaruntee that?  The Kohr-ah are quite different from thier green brethren, there is no need to assume they must operate the same way.  There is plenty of room on those huge ships for 42 Kohr-ah. One of explanations I have seen was that the Ur-Quan still were quite territoral even with each other, so they avoided each other's close company, but the Kohr-Ah were engineered to be soldiers, so they work together better, and can stand being close by one another.

-Will

Though this is totally breaking what most people around here regard as canon, in SC3 you could only put Ur-Quan on board Dreadnoughts. SO, it looks like they are capable of coexisting - though the rulebook suggests that they would really prefer to be solitary. Going from having 41 people who will die before you do -> being send on an autonomous fighter... it's really a very different way of looking at the fighting process.

I've always thought the best explanation was that each one of those 42 crew members actually WAS an Ur-Quan--and that the idea that there was only one in every Dreadnought was just a rumor, spread among suspicious Alliance soldiers.

>>Though this is totally breaking what most people around here regard as canon, in SC3 you could only put Ur-Quan on board Dreadnoughts. SO, it looks like they are capable of coexisting - though the rulebook suggests that they would really prefer to be solitary. Going from having 41 people who will die before you do -> being send on an autonomous fighter... it's really a very different way of looking at the fighting process. <<

Yea, but in SC3 the Ur-Quan no longer had battle thralls, did they?  ;) .  I'm not saying they CAN'T tolerate each other, just that they keep thier distance where possiable.  

>>Posted by: Cyamarin Posted on: Jan 22nd, 2003, 10:54pm
I've always thought the best explanation was that each one of those 42 crew members actually WAS an Ur-Quan--and that the idea that there was only one in every Dreadnought was just a rumor, spread among suspicious Alliance soldiers.  <<

Well, the "real report"data comes from a document published by Star Control Intelligence, so I think it holds more weight than a rumor.  

-Will  

Could be.  But it's not a piece of Intelligence data that ever really would come in handy during the war, and there were lots of things Star Control Intelligence didn't know about the Hierarchy, or even about the Alliance.  For example--the Spathi ship labelled "Discriminator" instead of "Eluder".

About Ur-quan being solitary hunters.. that was about brown Ur-quan. Dnyarri changed them. I think too, that at least Kohr-ah can work together (they couldn't have any other species around). Maybe Kzer-za don't breed as fast as Kohr-ah, or something, so they need to use slaves to mobilize enough ships.

About SC3.. there is no such thing.

Quick note about something I saw earlier in the thread : The Khor-Ah aren't soldiers so much as menial laborers. the physical side of the sciencifically minded Kzer-Za.

Am I wrong on that ?

>>Could be.  But it's not a piece of Intelligence data that ever really would come in handy during the war, and there were lots of things Star Control Intelligence didn't know about the Hierarchy, or even about the Alliance.  For example--the Spathi ship labelled "Discriminator" instead of "Eluder".<<

But it was considered a well known fact when it was presented, not a guess or a rumor.  And I would disagree about it never being handy.  I suspect the Alliance felt they might be able to incite some dreadnuaght crews to revolt, though they never pulled it off.  Basically, I see no reason to NOT believe it, as it seems perfectly reasonable and realistic to me.  

>>Quick note about something I saw earlier in the thread : The Khor-Ah aren't soldiers so much as menial laborers. the physical side of the sciencifically minded Kzer-Za.

Am I wrong on that ?<<

I believe the quote was "soldiers and menial laborors", so they did both.   Basically, both jobs require group work, which why I bet they Kohr-Ah get along with each other better then the Ur-Quan.

-Will  

Hmm... what if you put multiple Ur-Quan colonies in the same system? Could it occur that one would be Kzer-Za and the other Kohr-Ah? Maybe the conversion occurs by system. BTW, I am curious if anyone can explain to me what was really up with that. Those really WERE green Ur-Quan with little bits of black stuff draped over them. They don't at all resemble the Kohr-Ah. Was there some psychic influence confusing them or what? I really don't care about spoiling since this is SC3.

You ever try pointing that out to him?

He says something to the effect of "I am Kohr-ah because I follow the Eternal Doctrine!"  which means that now that the races aren't isolated, the confilct is about ideology and not just sub-race anymore.  And maybe he was a cross-breed.  Who knows?  SC3 never says.

This thread gives me a nifty idea:
It would be cool to eventaully add a "renegade dreadnaught" subplot to the single player.  The slaves mutinied, managed to space the captain, and then head out to an isolated corner of the galaxy to hide from the Ur-Quaan wrath.  If you tell em the right things, maybe bring them some mail from their homeworlds, they'll join you.

Lessee... which race would be captain of this renegade dreadnaught? Mycon can't even go onto other ships because they can only survive in overwhelmingly high temperatures, so they're out of the picture. Spathi are used as crew for dreadnaughts, but it's likely that they're subordinate to the other thralls, so cross them off. Lastly, the Thraddash weren't used against the alliance because the Ur-Quan thought they were little turds. That leaves the following species to take command: Ilwrath, Vux, Yehat, and Umgah. I think the captain would be best as a Yehat because all the other thralls must have a healthy respect for the Yehat and they're the most likely to lead a succesful mutiny.

You're all missing the point. The story was the Kzer-Za won over the Kohr-Ah, and they decided to go 180 on each other and cross the galaxy until they meet again. The Kzer-Za would enslave races to "protect them", and the Kohr-Ah would just annih.. anhigii.. ehh, you get it ;)

Then they arrived to the game's quardant. Some of the races have been enslaved and some decided to help the Kzer-Za and become battle thralls. Now, the Kzer-Za meet the Kohr-Ah and the final battle between them, as the doctrine states, begins. So they (the Kzer-Za) leave everything else behind - that's why the battle thralls are all loose and that's why when you arrive back to Sol there hadn't been a supply ship for 8 years..

The reason the Ur-Quan are more effective in SC3 is that there are more firing angles.  Plus there's an artifact upgrad for their ROF.

I have to disagree with you about the Avatar.  While it IS less powerful, that's becuase it was a bit too powerful in the first place.  In sc3, it's just like fighting with all the big ships:  whoever gets the better firing angle wins, the other is hurt, perhaps badly.

It would have to be led by the Yehat.  Perhaps the DN came across a stray Shofixti, which promptly gloried, and this inspired the Yehat.

Other 'flawed' ships include...
by your definition, apparently Pkunk, Slylandro, Druuge, Umgah  (battery related issues)
Thraddash (special power only used to make up for original design flaws... at least according to their story)
Harika/Yorn (Special only overcomes the low acceleration)
VUX (limpets trying to overcome low maneuverability)

Anything else I'm missing?

Wouldn't we know about all those races in SC3, then? Or even as early as SC1, since the Syreen steal away crew...

As far as I can tell here, the definition of "flawed" is "any ship that has some sort of weakness".  By that definition, I challenge you to find a ship that ISN'T flawed.  Sure, the Ur-Quan Dreadnought is a massively powerful battle platform, but within SC2 and Arilou can dispatch it easily.  The Chmmr is very strong as well, but a Druuge or an Utwig--both listed as "flawed" above--will pound one into space dust.  Even the Orz ship, which is famous for being at least a fair combatant against any other ship in space, will get nailed by an Androsynth Guardian every time.

They all have weaknesses.  Some of them are clearly weaker than other ships.  They make up for this by lowering the RU cost to build them.  It's SUPPOSED to work that way.

That's not entirely correct; if you remember you can (** spoiler **) convince the Thraddash to attack the Ur-Quan after you become their master and teacher.. hahah making them talk in pig-latin was cool  ;D

Hmm, so Maybe Prof. Zorg was a Dreadnaught crewmember liberated by the syreen? ;)

Indeed, they were happy to fight for the Ur-Quan but the Thraddash DID try to overthrow the Ur-Quan after you directed them to!

I've played the original PC game, so don't fret! I played it so much, I didn't need the star map, I just remembered where was each star.. oh, those were the days :P

Of course they tried to overthrow the Ur-Quan after you directed them to.  The Thraddash were so violent that they overthrew themSELVES every few hundred years--so it's not hard to imagine they'd do it to the Ur-Quan, even if they loved being battle thralls.

"roses are red, violets are blue.  When strangers come through here, we run tehm through!"

gotta love Culture 20...

even though you can deal with the Thraddash without talking to them at all, it's more then worth it to become the Great Teacher!

And for the record, yes they attack the Ur-Quan, but they get their butts kicked in rapid order.  Besides, they attack teh Kzer-Za, and its the Kohr-Ah that you need to attack!

As you all know you could get the Utwig and Supox to attack the Kohr-Ah as well.. That is weird though, you could get the Ur-Quan race closer to extinction with just one Jugger (or one Torch even)  ;)   Do alien pilots suck so much or are we Earthlings just that good?  ::)

Thank you.  Oh wait, you mean Thraddash Culture  20.  My Mistake.   ;D

LOL!  Well, that would depend, Culture20... I don't know if you're my type or not!

I think you can convince the Traddash to go attack the Korh-Ah.  At one point I suggested they do this to impress their Kzer-za bosses.  They trucked over and did it, but later expressed frustration that both sides fired on them on sight.

Which I found odd, since they ARE Kzer-Za battle thralls. You'd expect the Kzer-Za to just order them to go back. Maybe the Thraddash are leaving that part out...

What? no.. they are "your" thralls now, as you're their new teacher ;)

Well, there's no need to tell the Kzer-Za that...

Anyway, I just thought of something - The Kzer-Za ability to gather battle thralls is a strength that they should bring to the battlefield of the doctrinal war. If their ideology gives them the power to use other species' ships, then that aspect of the ideology should be weighed into account (to the extent that the question should be settled by hurling fiery plasma death at each other, which IMO is not really a very great extent).

Yes, the Kzer-Za formed the Hierarchy to fight the Alliance, not the Kohr-Ah. And as soon as they met with their Kohr-Ah brothers, they neglected the thralls (and the slave-shielded races).

I know that was their INTENT... but if their doctrine grants them this power, is it not proper in the contest of arms that this strength be applied?

What I don't understand is if they (Kzer-Za) had the Sa-Matra in their possession, why didn't they use it to defeat the other races? why raise a whole heirarchy and fight and blah and blah? aside from the fact it'd alter the whole plot ;)

The Kzer-Za take possession of it until they meet again; throught out this time (20K years?) the Kzer-Za could've used it to defeat other races, but not to annihilate them completely of course (that's the Kohr-Ah's ideology)..

Perhaps the Sa-Matra isn't good for anything except blowing huge amounts of sh*t up.

Maybe the work the Ur-Quan were doing required something as subtle(ha!) as a Dreadnought.

you're looking at this the wrong way.

yes, from a purely military standpoint it makes no sense to not use the Sa-Matra.

But, think about it culturally.

Sa-Matra literally means "Great Trophy".  Think of the Doctrinal wars as the Hockey playoffs and the Sa-Matra is the Stanley cup.

The whole point of the wars was to see which doctrine, in and of itself, was superior.  Obviously using the Sa-Matra would tip the balance and make the side using it win.  Thus, if they had used it the contest wouldn't be valid.

In the end of the war Kzer-za DID USE sa-matra against the alliance.

Essentially, the Kzer-Za didn't need to gather battle thralls but rather just use the Sa-Matra if they wanted any race defeated. Or is that true? perhaps the Sa-Matra really is only good for mass-destruction, since in the end you can beat it with one Fury.. hmm!
You're saying the Kzer-Za used the Sa-Matra to defeat the Alliance in the end? I don't recall that.. does Commander Hayes tell you about it?

I don't remember exactly who says it, but the Ur-Quan pulled out the Sa-Matra about when the alliance was down to the Chenjesu and MM (can't spell their name) because the Hierarchy was taking a lot of casualties against them.

On an unrelated note, the Kohr-Ah probably would've done the same thing against the Utwig and Supox if they had ever tried attacking them before the Doctrinal War because the Utwig/Supox are (I imagine) roughly as powerful as the Chenjesu/MM.

No one cares, so stfu.

IIRC, it was used against the chenjesu fleet and this is told to you by the chmmr.

I'd have to agree with NEMT. "stfu" is something little kids say to each other on games like Counterstrike or Starcraft. If you want to act like that, don't come here at all.

I just don't understand.  Where did that come from?

IIRC, the Chenjesu tell you about the Sa-matra, saying "It destroyed our ten finest broodhome warships from OUTSIDE OF THEIR WEAPONS RANGE" (emphasis added)

I don't think I need to remind everyone that the broodhome has unlimited weapons range in melee - so this must be a bombardment attack on scale long enough that it doesn't count as melee. Which would explain the asteroid shield - its short range defenses are weaker than those they installed.
(I know, some of you have said things like this - I'm just reiterating)

I never understood something about the Sa-Matra... I mean, what is it's real power?  If it can blow away ships from whatever distance it is (obviously farther than the endless range of the Chenjesu's shots), then why doesn't it just blow away your ships when you approach the deivce to attack it?  To me, I never truly gripped the importance of the Sa-Matra, and while I think it has its Death Star-esque appeal as a symbollic destruction of the Hierarchy, it seemed to me that the Dreadnoughts and Marauders were perfectally capable of wiping out fleets on their own without the device's help.  To me, the Sa-Matra never made much sense...

Who knows how powerful the Sa-Matra is at melee range? When you fight it, it's offline. The fireballs, green bouncers, and the rock barrier were built by the Ur-Quan to prevent it from being sabotaged. There is no way you'd be able to defeat the Sa-Matra if it were being actively used against you. There's no actual proof of this in the game, but I always assumed it to be true.

The Sa-Matra was guarded by many ships during the resolution of the Kzer-Za Kohr-Ah war. The Sa-Matra's location is "hidden" and guarded by supposedly infinite number of Ur-Quan ships, but the Talking Pet helps you to distract those ships. In other words, the Sa-Matra is actually not active while the Kohr-Ah and Kzer-Za are fighting, and the only reason you weren't incinerated by its awesome power is because you (supposedly) approached it without the Ur-Quan's knowledge plus the Talking Pet helped.

You, NEMT are obviously incapable of any form of thinking, but I'll explain:

Censored: What I don't understand is if they (Kzer-Za) had the Sa-Matra in their possession, why didn't they use it to defeat the other races?

mstr: In the end of the war Kzer-za DID USE sa-matra against the alliance.

NEMT: No one cares if they used it against the Alliance, we're talking about the Kohr-Ah.

Just quit this kind of bitching to avoid getting it back. Thank you.

Siding with NEMT on this was clearly a mistake. You're both trolls. Cut it out. Stop talking to each other or something.

A thought...

While it's interesting to read these conversations like this, I have to be wondering if Paul and Fred are sitting back laughing their balls off reading some of this.  I know they're probably not those kind of people, but I'm thinking it must be funny to someone who knows the intention of their storyline to have people debating back and forth like this...

;D

Sandal wearers?

My two cents (Euro cents that is!) on the Sa-Matra question: I do believe the green thingies and the yellow fireballs are made by the Sa-Matra as self-defensive weapons to prevent the Sa-Matra being destroyed or sabotaged by anyone who doesn`t have the rigth access-code.
The most likely reason, why the Ur-Quan took so long to bring the Great-Trophy into the war against the alliance is probably it`s slow travelling speed. Such a great ship must need a long time and an immense amount of energy to travel between stars. And since the Chenjesu were apparently the hardest opponent inside the Alliance, the Ur-Quan brought the Sa-Matra directly against the Chenjesu when they arrived.
Sadly, the Sa-Matra was not fast enough in following the Ur-Quan fleet into the last fight of the Shofixti.

CYa,
Martin

But the asteroid field is exogenous to the Sa-Matra, and those fireballs stop coming when you disable the asteroid field's shield generators. So it seems unlikely that they're really from the Sa-Matra.

Actually, I've been killed by the fireballs and the green things after destroying the shield generators. Several times. In fact, that was the most frustrating part about beating the game: you could have an awesome fleet that tears through the Ur-Quan ships, a grandiose display of Pkunk/Yehat prowess in getting those generators down, and after that your ship could still be knocked off course by those little green things and destroyed by the fireballs.

Which isn't to say I don't like it that way. It's more of a challenge. =)

That's an interesting challenge, though easily beaten considering you can destroy the green and fire balls after you destroy the generators - where then they don't re-generate  :D

That's what I meant.

How do you kill the fireballs? I know the green things can be killed with a single hellbore cannon shot, but I think the point defense just disables them for a second or two unless you hit them a few times. As for the fireballs... I'm too busy trying to fly into the Sa-Matra to bother with trying to destroy them. With as many crew pods as I bring along, they wouldn't be a problem except that the green things knock me right into them.

My only other option was to rely a bit on luck, which has served me relatively well so far. =)

Zapsats cancel with fireballs - you can also turn them to overblown solar wind with the chmmr laser.

Just keep hitting the fireballs with lots of little shots and they die that way too.

Another thing about the Sa-Matra. It seems that everyone is in agreement that when you attack it, it's either only in defensive mode, or the Quans inside are knocked out by the Talking Pet, whichever.

Seeing as the active Sa-Matra can apparently wipe Broodhomes off the map before they get into range, I'm inclined to agree.

But in that case, what's the deal with the Chmmr? I mean, their ships aren't even close to the Chenjesu range-wise, and they aren't as fast as the Mrnhrm ships. True, they have ZapSats protecting them, but even regualr ships can wipe those out. Well, some of them anyway. So waht good would they be against the Sa-Matra? I mean, that's the reason the C&M got their butts kicked, no? they were doing alright against the regular Quan forces, and then they got blasted into bits. the Chmmr, while undoubtedly great ships against the rest of the Hierarchy couldn't really defeat the Sa-Matra anyway, so what's the point of merging at all?

WHY HAVE YOU INTERUPTED THE PROCESS?
The process of merging was not finished when you came. Who knows what kind of ship the Chmmr would have designed when the process would have completed as planned.

They designed the process to emerge so strong, that they can defeat the Sa-Matra alone, since they did not believe that the rest of the Alliance could help them then.

BTW: Did they plan to hunt the Kzer-Za until they could destroy the Kzer-Za fleet and the Big Trophy?
Even in SC1 it must have been known, that the Ur-Quan would leave this sector for new races to subjugate in nearby quadrants.

Maybe the current Avatar isn't what the Chenjesu and the Mmrnmhrm originally planned, but what they ended up with, when the process was accelerated with the sun device.

Also, with you blazing around the galaxy with a Dnyarri and a really big bomb, there actually isn't any need for the Chmmr to do anything about Sa-Matra. Thus, it is hardly strange that the Chmmr change their plans somewhat when you show up. Admittedly, this reasoning fails in the case where you finish the process before getting hold of the Dnyarri and/or Utwig Bomb?

Err.. good point,. I never really thought about it that way while playing, I always assumed you just accelerated the process, not changed it. But according to the logs on PONAF that's exactly what I did. Darn, never meant to screw the Chmmr up...

Also Krulle, I do think they meant to hunt the Kzer-Za down, they srike me as very moral creatures, and as long as the Kzer-Za were only pushed away from this part of space one could never be sure they wouldn't return in even greater numbers, and with even more powerful weapons...

WE ARE FREE!
YOU HAVE FLOODED OUR SYNTHESIS MECHANISMS WITH A WEALTH OF RADIANT ENERGY.
WHAT WAS SUPPOSED TO TAKE DECADES HAS BEEN ACCOMPLISHED IN SECONDS.
THE PROCESS IS INCOMPLETE, YET WE HAVE EMERGED.
WE ARE THE CHMMR.

This could either mean the process was incomplete yet they emerged as if it was, or it was incomplete and they emereged, but not as they wanted..
(then again - "was was supposed... accomplished in seconds" .. hmm)
Any English majors here? :P

The problem is not knowing exactly what the "WHAT" is referring to. Do they mean the entire process was accomplished in seconds or that their emerging from the process (complete or not) was accomplished in seconds?

I think we can only speculate as far as that goes.

You're probably right about that... Wer may never know.

Here's a crazy speculation : What if the ultimate goal of the Chmmr was actually to become a Sa-Matra? We've all assumed that their idea was to evlove into a new race like the Chmmr, whose SHIPS were capable of taking on the enemy. But what if they were simply going to bypass that by morphing into a battle station ready for action? I mean, with their Chenjesu components capable of hearing hyperwawe transmissions, absorbing energy from the sun and whatnot, and the mechanical abilities of the Mrnhrm, maybe their ultimate goal was to merge into one large sentient being? One living battle station capable of wiping out the Sa-Matra with a single shot? Do you thin kthey'd have been willing to give up both races futures just to protect their allies and their way of life?

Lukipela: I like that idea. But they must have planned to be stronger than the Sa-Matra, because the Ur-Quan would have supported the Sa-Matra with their fleet.

BTW: They planned to overthrow the Ur-Quan slave empire (as far as i remember). Therefor, they must have planned to confront the Ur-Quan, even if they are not in this region of space anymore.

Yeah, I only used to term Sa-Matra to make their battlesataion comparable. It would have to be a LOT stronger, but I think it's still doable. Seeing as they are blanet bound ,they might even have considered transforming along with the entire planet, or drawing more resources from there to build it even bigger than if it was just the two species combined...

Something like that. I just wanted too make it clear. But in the end we'll probalbly never know, since we _have_ interrupted the process, and not just speeded it up.

Likely it's as said before: they needed time (for starship research, weapon-research and so on) and energy for the synthesis/ emerging from the cocoon/planetary shield.
Since you gave them energy in plenty, they missed some time for their complete schedule.

Unless the Chmmr will tell us in SC3v2, we'll never know. And it's not something i need answered. What's more pressing to me, is: how many races can i free from being slaveshielded in SC3v2, who created the Mycon (if the Umgah were right about them being artificial), what becomes of the Druuge, why we never find any remnants of colonies founded by other species (they all have just one homeworld, even in Zoq-Fot-Piq space, who tell you about their destructed colonies, i have never found any bombarded planet),...

As for colonies left behind by other races, I don't think there is any great mystery.  I bet they simply didn't have time to write in any colonies/mines/etc, so they just went with a homeworld and a region of space where you can find the ships.  I think that is a pity, but not a huge deal.  I am interested in see how they fortified a system, though....

As for the Chmmr becoming/building a huge ship to fight the Sa-Matra, that's a cool idea.  It would take a long time, I imagine to build something close to the power of Sa-Matra, as it was a precusor warship.  

-Will    

I doubt the Chmmr would want to "convert" the whole planet to a battle platform, since when you speak to them they say their plan was to complete the process, then break down the shield and emerge. It seems a bit odd to think of the whole planet as huge platform.. but it's a cool idea indeed :P

I think the race-as-a-battle-platform idea may be clever, but I don't like it.

What I think morelikely is that the chmmr avatar was supposed to be much like it is, except that instead of 3 zapsats, it has like 80, and together their lasers are powerful enough to neutralize the sa-matra weapon. At that point, it wouldn't need a main weapon - just more tractor power... MUHAHAHA

Either that or they wanted to make the main laser have a range as long as that of the sa-matra. Or they'd cross the beams and do a death star like converging gun thing... only lots of them and firing continuously, with five second breaks every ten seconds. Not something that can be done in melee, but in cut-scenes it would make sense.

I doubt they'd have bothered to have the plans for Avatars whipped up already when you first bring down the shield if they weren't planning to need them.

I have never seen any Avatars, except in my fleet. Apparently (to me) they have never built any Avatars. They just gave you some resources, and your starbase built the Avatars. Even when i revisited Procyon, i never saw any Avatars.

From the storyline i know what Talana tells me, that the Chmmrs cut through both Ur-Quan forces with their Avatars.
I supposed they started building them when i started for the destruction of the Big Trophy.

Yes, when I think of it - the Chmmr isn't the ship itself, so following the same concept the Chmmr won't become a battle platform..

Possibly the Avats were meant as support troops? Not all chenjesu/Mrnhrm were needed to create  the platform perhaps...  or the Avatars were meant to be remote cotrolled, like the drones io a beeswarm. The Ur-Quan still have a fleet of  Dreadnoughts, they don't rely entirely on the Sa-Matra either.

As for emerging from the planet. No matetr if they just converted the race, or the entire planet, they'd still be inside the slaveshield wouldn't they. so they'd definetly have to emerge.

And likewise, if all they wanted was a new ship, creatinga completley new race is a bit over the edge isn't it? they could just have used their time to research a ship piloted by either of the races, or a team, that was strong enough to defeat the enemy. Of course, every race in Starcon has a ship, and none has two, so it is weirdly logical that for a new ship you'd need a new race, but still...

And the Chmmr isn't in the ship itself no, but the process was interrupted... Maybe they hadn't gotten as far as merging with eachother.

A superpowered Chmmr ship just seems... Well, weird to me. In that case, the cost of even one of these ships would be astronomical, and a fleet of two ships isn't much good is it?

All that said, any theory about what the Chmmr could have been is still just a theory... But it sure is fun speculating : )

The Precursors had two ships.  ^_^

In any case, I think the Chmmr DID need to form a new race.  I don't think that the problem is that the Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm needed to combine their talents and create a new ship, I think they knew they wouldn't be able to design a new ship unless they had a whole new way of THINKING about the ship design.  The Chenjesu were worried because their culture had stagnated, and they needed some "new blood" to stir things up, and the Mmrnmhrm had no form of reproduction--the forming of a new race had to happen.

That is a good point, to gain a new perspective, become someone else! But was the Chenjesu culture really stagnant?

But think what a perspective they would have gained ass "The biggest station in the world!" ;)

The Chmmr you talk to SAYS they had grown stagnant.. so.. yes.

Umm, i looked through the quotes on PONAF and couldn't find what your refferring to, but their quote page for the chmmr seems to stop in mid sentence

http://www.classicgaming.com/starcontrol/sc2/quotes/chmmr.txt

but ill take your word for it anyway : ) I wonder how such an ancient culture could stagnate so easily...

Every conversation is available in UQM/content/comm/<race>/<race>.txt

Avatars as Dreadnought killers (as opposed to Sa-Matra killers) makes sense if you remember that they planned the merging process to take thousands of years. Um, it took thousands of years for Round One of the Doctrinal War to play out, maybe they were banking on the KZ's winning and there being a Round Two.

Otherwise, it makes no sense for you to start a pan-millenial project when you've got just a few decades till anihilation.

I mean, it's not much of a Now and Forever, Eternal thing if you're only going to do it once-and-out, now is it?

This has never made sense. If you and I agree to walk around the galaxy (or planet or merrygoround or imaginary circle) and kill each other next time we meet, we're NOT going to meet where we started, we're going to meet halfway around, on the far side. But KZs and KAs started AND ended at the Sa-Matra. Huh? Did they pass each other peacefully 10,000 years ago on the other side of the galaxy? And if so, who did the KZ's slave-shield on the home stretch? All the races would be wiped out by the KAs on their initial pass. Unless you think a species can evolve from nonsentient critters into a starfaring military power in less than 10,000 years. ( I allow for critters because the KAs must eat something, I don't imagine them being photosynthetic like the Chenjesu. Yep, vicious, sadistic, insane vegan killing machines.)

And if the KAs are wandering around a quadrant that has nothing but impeneterable slave shielded races, I'd think they'd go batshit because they wouldn't be the only living thing left. THEY AUTOMATICALLY LOSE THE WAR. And if they CAN penetrate the slave shield, why aren't you trying to rip off the technology so you can rebuild the Alliance? Isn't that your goal for the first 3/4 of the game?

Deathy:

They DID meet halfway around.

The Sa-Matra CAN move.

The Kzer-Za currently have the Sa-Matra turned off in order to fight the Doctrinal War.

They took the SM from the Sentient Mileu's place on the other side of the galaxy, and after the first Doctrinal War they went their separate ways.  Luckily for us, the metting point was very near Earth.

As far as the slave shields:

You KNOW that they can penatrate the shields, b/c the Kzer-Za chagne out who's on the starbases every 5 years.  (At least they're supposed to.)  So the Kohr-Ah would jsut bring down the shield and kill everything.

And just how to you propose to discover the secret of the sheild?  I guarantee you that there are armies of scientists on Earth who have been studying it for the last 18 years!  If they haven't been able to break it how do you propose to?

There is a bit of a strange problem hiding in there. I mean, it takes the Spathi only a couple of months to duplicate the Slaveshield around Earth so perfectly that they can duplicate it on Spathiwa. From simply watching a Slave Shield in operation, they are able to reverse engineer it and make their own. We however, have had people on both sides on the shield for a much longer time observing and studying, and we still know squat about it. We need the Chmmr to bring it down. Now Chwenjesu and later on Chmmr are real brainy guys, unofficial leaders of the Alliance and whatnot, so I can take them being smarter than us. But are the Spathi really that bright? Well, they must be I suppose, after they did evolve rather quickly as well....

You're all wrong ;)

The people on Earth aren't even trying to take down the shield because they know they'll be all anni.. agning.. err, annihilated :P if they do. They also don't have any contact with the outside so they have no idea of the New Alliance of Free Stars (or, I should correct myself - The Empire of CENSORED! MAUHAHAHHA... ahem.)
Anyways - you wouldn't take down the shield because you'd be risking your whole race, and besides - what can Cruisers possibly do? scratch the Ur-Quan's butt?  ;D
Don't forget the first time you meet an Ur-Quan Kzer-Za, he (she? hmm, how DO Ur-Quan females look like? in bikini? hehehe) says something like, "how did you escape the slave shield, human? or are you a rogue?"

They don't think that Earth has been liberated, and don't forget they don't have time to mess with this - they're in the middle of the Doctrinal War. About the Kohr-Ah - they don't really care about slave shields. They'd just bombard the planet until everyone dies - they don't support the fallow slave races idea. Or any "races" idea.

Last, the Spathi had over 20 years to figure out how the slave shield works, considering their story (they wished they were encased in a protective shield but the Umgah tricked them with the stick ceremony and all.. you know the story). And besides, I'm sure being combat thralls gave them a bit of advantage regarding the shield's construction and so.

The Chenjesu/Mmrnmhrm already knew how to penetrate a slave shield -- they did so when they moved everyone from the starbase down to the Chenjesu homeworld. The Chmmr take down the slave shield to Earth (and I'm assuming to Gaia as well) eventually so they know how to get rid of them.

But destroying a slave shield is quite different from generating one.

Also bear in mind that the worlds that have been slave-shielded supposedly have their technology taken away. As the Spathi put it:

...or become a 'fallow' species and return to pre-atomic savagery on the surface of their homeworld encased for all time beneath an impenetrable force shield.
Speaking of the Spathi, they tried to create a shield rather than bring one down. Theirs is a unique motivation, as I'm sure they're the only race in the galaxy who are trying to be slave shielded. Such a thing would be paradise to them! And as Censored pointed out, they had around 20 years to theorize on different ways to do this. Observing and studying an actual slave shield just gave them that last bit of information they needed to make their own.

How should the Chenjesu or the Mmrhmhrm know about the Kohr-Ah? The Kzer-Za arrived at this region of space, and that's all they know! The Kzer-Za are trying to submit every race to their domination. The Kohr-Ah have not yet arrived when the Chenjesu where slave-shielded. Therefor the doctrinal war has not begun when the Chenjesu where enslaved. And that would explain the flaw they have when fighting the Kohr-Ah, because the Zap-Sats are easy prey to the Fiery Ring of Inevitable and Eternal Destruction, leaving the Avatar a sitting duck.

It would also explain why the Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm elect to take part in a process with the projected end date of a couple of decades. If they knew of the Kohr-Ah and their intentions, they may have decided to go with another plan. That would be interesting... what sort of plan do you suppose they'd come up with if they did know the Kohr-Ah were soon going to nuke everyone?

Probably, they"d have tried too flee (like the Mael-Num/Melnorme). And hoped that they eliminate each other far enough, so that the combined strength of those willing to help could defeat both fleets before they have decided who wins the doctrinal war and is allowed to use the Sa-Matra.

i agree. The Chenjesu/Mrnhrm weren't the ppl to do a last stand Shofixti style, nor would they have begun the process if they had even an inkling about the Kohr-Ah. They would have hidden themselves somewhere, or made for a new sector...

Maybe they would have tried to convince the Kzer-Za that it was fair and proper that their battle thralls should fight on their side. Goodness knows that with the Spathi on their side the Kzer-Za could have done a hell of a lot better.

Failing that, they would have developed a ship that would evade detection from the Kzer-Za and secretly aid them in wiping out the Kohr-Ah.

Maybe fire resistant impact resistant micro-crystalline shards in a magnetic bottle - it would look like a natural effect, but it would 'naturally' go after the heavy-metal wielding Kohr-Ah and not the Kzer-Za.
It wouldn't kill any crew, say, but it would weaken their engines, batteries, and so forth. Like being limpeted and having a DOGI stuck in your hull. MUHAHA

The Doctrinal War was not about which of the Ur-Quan races is extinct first. Even as the game ends with the unfortunate triumph of the Kohr-Ah, the Kzer-Za aren't even near annihilation..

When I said wiping out I didn't mean literally genociding - I meant militarily dominating.

Ok :P

hmpf! when do I get a "Too Much Spare Time" ?
hehe

even though that's not true, if I had too much spare time I'd learn to program games, buy MicrosFot and rule the world!
MUAHAHHAHAHAH!

;D

Unless I'm completely wrong, you get Too Much spare time at a 100 posts. easy to test since this is my 100th! So I wait hope and pray.

Oh, and to add to the disuccion, that always struck me as weird:The Kzer-Za fight the Kohr-Ah to decide whose doctrine is the best. so the Kohr-Ah get to bring all the ships they've built from materials plundered from extinct races. That's their philosophy, only Ur-quan. Whereas the Kzer-Za propagate FOR battle thralls and slave shields. why shouldn't they use them? The Thralls are the direct result of their philosophy, the strenght of it. They should be used in the battle.

Reading this post I see it looks a bit like the starting post of the topic :) Duh! But the point remains, why did they agree to fight mano e mano?

----------------------

EDIT: It was 101 posts :)

Actually the Kzer-Za say their intention are to save other races from self-extinction or over-powering the Kzer-Za. By becoming battle-thralls and thus helping the Kzer-Za subjugate other races they actually gain protection for themselves, plus the Kzer-Za's rule should prevent the thralls from "self-extinction", so to speak.


"In our twenty thousand years along the Path of Now and Forever
we have dominated thousands of species, yes
but we have saved hundreds from extinction.
You imagine the threat of unknown invaders, or alien pestilence borne on the solar wind.
We have seen these. But you do not acknowledge your own worst enemy, yourselves.
We have found dead worlds without number, planets ravaged by atomic fire or gaian collapse.
These planets were not rendered sterile by outside forces.
They bear sad testament to the effects of unrestrained instinct and emotion
or simple ignorance.
We will prevent such mistakes. "


I also found this bit which I thought would be a cool thing to add ;) by a Kzer-Za captain:
"You boldly enter our space! Approach this Dreadnought as though it were a recreation base
and then play the dumb hominid?
Who do you take us for, Captain... Spathi!?"

Yes, but whatever reason for their philosophy, selfprotection, protecting others, anything, it still stands that they are FOR thralls. The Thralls are actually an importnat part of theirphilosophy, in that they swell their ranks and allow them conquer more quickly. So still, I think it'd be logical to have them with you in the conflict. After all, they are what you are fighting for.

LOL. Never so that quote before.

The answer is very simple: the Ur-Quan consider all other life forms to be so grossly inferior to themselves that they do not have the honor to participate in the Doctrinal War, which (by tradition) should only take place between Ur-Quan anyway.

The Doctrinal War isn't about doing everything you can to win. I think the game makes it obvious that it's really a war of opposing philosophies and, for all of their belligerence, the Ur-Quan are ultimately idealistic beings. What I mean is that their ideals are more important to them than anything else, even more than winning. If these ideals would prevent the Kzer-Za from using their battle thralls than so be it. The fact that they do things the right way is a lot more important to them than just winning. If either subspecies "cheats" then it isn't a true victory because they didn't prove their doctrine to be superior.

This is further shown if the Kohr-Ah win. The Kzer-Za are vehemently opposed to the Kohr-Ah's doctrine but they immediately stop fighting once the war is over. Why? Because they lost, fair and square, and the Kohr-Ah have proven their doctrine. Since they lost they have to follow the rules and let the Kohr-Ah do as they will, and damn the consequences, because it's what they believe in. See my point?

I do see your point, but I still don't see the philosophic idea behind it. I mean, The Path of Now and Forever still weighs heavily on the "let the aliens live" policy, and it's the strength of it! It's the reason they differ from the Kohr-Ah. Shouldn't this be reflected in their way of fighting? The Kohr-Ah are fighting alone, because they are always alone, but the Kzer-Za should have their servants fight, because that's what THEY do.

But that's not what they did in the first doctrinal war (no heirarchy of slaves).  Ur-Quan believe in tradition so much that they will not use their slaves in the battle.

I think the point here is simple:

NO!  The Kzer-Za strategy in the doctrinal war doesn't make any sense from a tactical standpoint.

So what?

That isn't the point!

Talk about post-traumatic stress. Two subspecies who literally control-freak on the whole galaxy so that they'll never have to be afraid again. Of course, they'd turn on each other once they were the only two left. Why? Because fear is not rational. There's no "Ah, all better," ever. Once there's no alien stand-in for the "other", they'll find it in each other. Not even slave shielded races will be safe, because after all non-shielded races are gone, the answerless fear will still remain. And once there's no "other" kind of Ur-Quan, they'll find it within their brothers, until there's only one Ur-Quan left, who will die without offspring, probably of simple starvation. Either Ur-Quan path, unless stopped, will end with the destruction of all life in the galaxy.

The Kzer-Za are willing to let their conscience get the better of them and let some species live, in a contained way, but only because they have a proactive (if neurotic) way of dealing with their fear. They can never ever truly address and resolve their fear, because it's not about the rest of the galaxy, it's about something that doesn't exist: the event that caused them suffering, removed from the here and now by millenia. Nothing will "make it go away", because it's already gone.

Of course, maybe they'll get lucky and be stuck on chasing those rascally IDF critters. So long as there's a barbarian at the gates, something more "other" than their brothers, they won't turn.

Or maybe they'll set their sights on other galaxies, leaving this dead galaxy behind, only to get their butts kicked by the Sentient Milleu II and their fleet of Super Sa-Matras.

So while you may not be the universe's only hope, you most likely are this galaxy's last chance.

Well here's an interesting question: do the Ur-Quan even know about IDF beings? I assume they would have to know at least something about them, either through intelligence and study regarding the Arilou or simply through their own independent studies. Of course, fighting a never ending war might gobble up all the resources it would take to do such experimenting.

But assuming they did know about IDF beings, how do you think they'd handle them? The Orz, for example... where is their homeworld? What happened to the Androsynth, who are supposed to be Ur-Quan battle thralls? If one of their thralls is attacked, would it be considered an attack against the entire hierarchy? If so they'd likely declare war against the Orz. It wouldn't do too much good, I think, because they'd be destroying the Orz *fingers* but not the Orz entity. I wonder if they'd ever figure the Orz out.

Too many questions, too few answers. =)

An answer which is probably related to the Sa-Matra and the Precursors' disappearance.. About the Orz-Andosynth event, I think I've said that before here - as soon as the Kzer-Za met with their Kohr-Ah cousins they forgot all about thralls and slave-races and focused entirely on the Doctrinal War. That's why the Hierarchy is in choas, in terms of control.

Actually I meant for those questions to reflect what the Kzer-Za would be asking if they were to win their war and get back to business.

Which still leaves the question of how they would handle the Orz situation unanswered. =)

Tradition? This is the second doctrinal war. In the first there was no hierarchy, and now it's only the second (20,000 years after the first one).
I wouldn't call that a tradition. IF they were to let all the Thralls help, then they must win, due to the fact, that nearly half the galaxy is under their control, and the other half is dead. Approximately half of their half Galaxy are battle-thralls, that must be thousands of races, regarding  the density of intelligent life in this region of space. Unluckiely, most of them are to far away to help the Kzer-Za (some even 20,000 years far away).

But I think, that due to the doctrin they must allow the Thralls to help. But i think the reason why this is not allowed is: NOBODY is allowed to kill ANY Ur-Quan, except the Ur-Quan themselves in their doctrinal war.

CU,
Martin

That is the best explanation I've heard so far.

I agree, it makes much more sense than anything else.

Just to add to the list, I agree too.  :)

The Kzer-Za are disgusted with the idea of inferior species killing their brothers? Makes sense. I think my topic has been answered.

Thank You all.
Too bad that this thread is answered and (probably) will die soon. (After all the "That must be the answer").

But it took quite a time to discover the answer.

BTW: The goal of both doctrines is to eliminate any danger for any Ur-Quan.  The doctrines to talk about Kohr-Ah or Kzer-Za protection, only about Ur-Quan protection.
Just to fundate my hypothesis.

Well, the question did come up about how the Quan would react to the Orz and other IDF beings if they had a chance... Well, the Kzer-za, we know how the Kohr-Ah react to the Orz... Maybe we could keep the thread going on that : )

I think it's time for this thread to cease ;) every time I want to reply I have to load 200K of the previous messages below the edit box!!

So, to conclude, the Ur-Quan have a great 'weakness', so to speak, for honor. They are actually creatures of virtue.. They would never "cheat" in the Doctrinal War, and surely not kill their brethren using the help of other species. Don't forget they don't hate the Kohr-Ah, they're just have different opinions.
The Melnorme explain this:


Following the successful Ur-Quan slave revolt the Ur-Quan met to decide how to ensure their freedom. The Green Ur-Quan, who called themselves the Kzer-Za in honor of the Ur-Quan who triggered the revolt wished to establish the `Path of Now and Forever' which required that all other sentient species must become slaves of the Ur-Quan or be forever imprisoned beneath an impenetrable force shield.
Leading the opposition to this plan was Kohr-Ah, a charismatic fleet officer.
Kohr-Ah proposed a simpler alternative, the `Eternal Doctrine.'
Simply put, this scheme called for the systematic eradication
of all sentient life in the universe aside from the Ur-Quan.
Captain, if these positions seem to you extreme or unwarranted you must remember that the Ur-Quan had been unwilling slaves for millenia and that each of them had to remain in agony for years in order to defeat the Dnyarri.
The followers of Kzer-Za and Kohr-Ah were all on the brink of madness but neither side would submit, and so they fought a bloody civil war.

The civil war between the Green Ur-Quan, the followers of Kzer-Za and their opponents, the death-dealing Kohr-Ah, lasted for decades. It is likely that they would have annihilated each other were it not for a chance discovery by a Kzer-Za -- a Precursor Battleship!
The vessel was huge, many times the size of the Ur-Quan's vessels. The Precursor ship sliced through the Kohr-Ah forces in days -- the Kohr-Ah were defeated. However in their victory, the Kzer-Za were humble they realized that there was a chance that they were wrong, and the Kohr-Ah were right.
Instead of destroying the Kohr-Ah, the Kzer-Za let them go
directing them to make their way through the stars, travelling against the spin of the galaxy.
The Kzer-Za would travel in the opposite direction
and when the two Ur-Quan forces met, they would fight again in a ritual combat with the Precursor Battleship given to the winner.


And to strengthen my point, if the Kohr-Ah win, you can chat with the Kzer-Za peacefully:


So... it is the human slave.
How strange. I would have thought your species was extinct by now. We have a suggestion for you.
FLEE! Run as fast and as far as your ship will take you.
..Flee!... before the Kohr-Ah find you!

"Why should we run away?"
Because you are doomed if you remain here! Our Doctrinal War is over. We, the Kzer-Za, have lost. RUN HUMAN!
..Because if you do not run -- do not find somewhere to hide and nurture your species you are extinct, and we, who have tried to protect you are now powerless to stop the killing frenzy of the Kohr-Ah.
Now the Kohr-Ah and their Eternal Doctrine have free reign in these stars.
The Kohr-Ah will visit each of our slave races, staying only long enough to ensure than not one of the species remains alive.

"So what happens to you?"
Human, days ago, I would have killed you for your insolence but now... what is the use? You and your kind will receive the ultimate punishment soon enough. I will tell you what you wish to know.
While the Kohr-Ah move through space, killing your neighboring species we shall remain here, guarding the trophy... the Sa-Matra.
When the Kohr-Ah are done with their dark business they will take possession of the Sa-Matra, and then we will part ways traversing the galaxy in opposite directions, fulfilling our doctrines and preparing for our next Doctrinal War.
Farewell human. I hope your species survives.


Also, while being sent to Ur-Quan space by the Dynarri, the Kzer-Za respond to you:
"Human. We Ur-Quan never lie. NEVER!
It is a weakness to lie, and as you haven't noticed, the Ur-Quan are not weak!"

We had a good discussion. Thanks everyone  :D

Gee, since i never let it come so far (not even in my first game), i never had such a nice talk to the Master???.

Interesting enough, they will move on and prepare for another war. Bad luck for the part of the galaxy where the Kzer-Za went through, cause they will have to fight the Sa-Matra to survive. And the Kzer-Za will possibly travel through meeting no-one. And then what?

The galaxy is a bit bigger than the sphere of influence of either Ur-Quans. I'm sure they couldn't cover the entire "width" of a spiral galaxy.

Indeed - the kohr-ah swath of destruction fit in between utwig and druuge space. Lots of people left to slaughter (not sure whether that's a good thing or a bad thing... then realizes that the 'canonical' game ending probably does NOT involve the Kohr-Ah wiping out even the Utwig (the first ones they go after), let alone all the sentient life in the sector).