The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum

The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release => General UQM Discussion => Topic started by: jaychant on September 15, 2008, 03:16:13 am



Title: Idea for UQM
Post by: jaychant on September 15, 2008, 03:16:13 am
I'm back! I'm sure Shiver won't be too happy about that, but he will be happy to know that in addition to my being banned from the SCDB, I have no interest in netplay. But I have come back to the UQM forum because I love this place and I really want to squeeze back in because I miss it so much! This is going to be so much fun! I look forward to having very intillectual conversations with you all!!!

Ok, now for the REAL reason why I'm here. You should know that that stuff I typed above is a bunch of bullshit. The real reason is because I have an idea for UQM.

What if there was a ship editor for UQM? It could work like this:

-First, the player chooses a ship to work from or chooses to start from scratch.
-Next, the player adjusts the mass (size) of the ship as well as the length and width (allowing for longer, skinnier ships).
-After the size has been determined, the player is allowed to change the look of the ship.
-The player then decides how powerful the engine should be.
-Then the weapons are chosen (max 2; player chooses which is primary and which is secondary).
-Finally, special components are selected for the ship

Special notes:
-A ship cannot be massive and small, i.e. it has to cover a certain amount of space total depending on the mass.
-More massive ships have more space.
-More powerful engines require more space
-Different weapons require different amounts of space
-Speed of ships is decided based on both the mass of the ship and the power of the engine
-Ships are not required to have weapons
-Special components take up space and also have certain requirements (i.e. the inertia less drive can only go on small ships).


So tell me what you all think!


Title: Re: Idea for UQM
Post by: thiosk on September 15, 2008, 04:31:35 am
I'm telling you,

star control based on the SPORE engine is the way to go


Title: Re: Idea for UQM
Post by: jaychant on September 15, 2008, 11:48:56 am
All I know about this game your talking about is you make characters, so... atleast someone understands!


Title: Re: Idea for UQM
Post by: Glory_device on September 15, 2008, 04:53:52 pm
For all I know about this community (because I am new here), what will happen with your idea split into 2 different pathway: A) ''you got a good idea, if you have spare time go ahead and do it but do not count on us to do it for you. We can give you clue tho.'' B) get spore and do it (like previously said). In either case a ship editor will not be part of UQM since they stated it many time that the goal if it is to recreate to almost original state the game. After, they will made it mod friendly but all mod will not be part of the UQM label.

From my previous gaming experience, tempering with new creation tend to make the game unfair. The very first idea that come to my mind is that you will basically create ship that will be specific to destroy a particular ship with very ease...In a nutshell, before even begin to program.. You should really look at every aspect of the ship designing process and make it very precise. Excel could help you a lot with this one: you could make some equation that give the max weight based upon a ship size and shape. Based on this you can make another set of equation that give you Thrust turning speed and speed itself based upon shape, weight, engine...etc...etc...

If you need help for that part or if you want feedback about what you did, feel free to ask I will gladly help.


Title: Re: Idea for UQM
Post by: meep-eep on September 15, 2008, 05:33:50 pm
So tell me what you all think!
You should try Master of Orion.


Title: Re: Idea for UQM
Post by: Shiver on September 15, 2008, 05:37:46 pm
Quote from: jaychant
I'm back! I'm sure Shiver won't be too happy about that, but he will be happy to know that in addition to my being banned from the SCDB, I have no interest in netplay.

If your posts per day stay low enough, I might not even mind you. The other thing worth pointing out is that we will take pretty much anyone for net melee.


Quote from: thiosk
I'm telling you,

star control based on the SPORE engine is the way to go

As for you... you remind a little of a guy who visited this place insisting that the next Star Control game should be an MMORPG in every post he made. He was ridiculed a little bit for this and eventually left. Please don't be a one-trick pony like him.


I really don't see why another Star Control game should rip off Spore. At all. The selling point of Spore is its deep level of customization. Editors of that nature take up obscene amounts of time and effort to design, time and effort that would be better spent on the core gameplay. If Activision gives TFB the green light, they are not going to let them work with a virtually infinite budget and time frame like Spore (or Starcraft II...) was given.


Title: Re: Idea for UQM
Post by: jaychant on September 15, 2008, 09:10:55 pm
Quote
You should try Master of Orion.

Sounds a little familiar. I'll check it out.

Quote
For all I know about this community (because I am new here), what will happen with your idea split into 2 different pathway: A) ''you got a good idea, if you have spare time go ahead and do it but do not count on us to do it for you. We can give you clue tho.'' B) get spore and do it (like previously said). In either case a ship editor will not be part of UQM since they stated it many time that the goal if it is to recreate to almost original state the game. After, they will made it mod friendly but all mod will not be part of the UQM label.

From my previous gaming experience, tempering with new creation tend to make the game unfair. The very first idea that come to my mind is that you will basically create ship that will be specific to destroy a particular ship with very ease...In a nutshell, before even begin to program.. You should really look at every aspect of the ship designing process and make it very precise. Excel could help you a lot with this one: you could make some equation that give the max weight based upon a ship size and shape. Based on this you can make another set of equation that give you Thrust turning speed and speed itself based upon shape, weight, engine...etc...etc...

If you need help for that part or if you want feedback about what you did, feel free to ask I will gladly help.

Ok, I had just a little trouble reading that.

Just so you all know, I am only just starting to use Visual Basic, so I won't be able to make this a reality for a while. I'm just asking what you think so I can perfect the idea and see what I was missing.

Quote
I'm telling you,

star control based on the SPORE engine is the way to go

I actually agree with shiver, there's no reason to copy another game and give it a "star control" theme. Besides, from what I know about "spore", it's an mmorpg, and star control wouldn't make a good mmorpg. Besides, it would be empty.


On a side note, the "insert quote" button isn't working. I get this error message:
Quote
An Error Has Occurred!
Unable to load the 'quotefast' template.

I'm on the default theme, and I'm running Firefox.


Title: Re: Idea for UQM
Post by: Glory_device on September 16, 2008, 04:34:18 am
What part can I clarify for you? Is it the part where I talk about the ship physical properties?


Title: Re: Idea for UQM
Post by: jaychant on September 16, 2008, 11:56:28 am
No, I understand it, I just needed to read it a second time before I understood it.


Title: Re: Idea for UQM
Post by: Valaggar Redux on September 16, 2008, 03:25:51 pm
Quote
On a side note, the "insert quote" button isn't working. I get this error message:

Use the Babylon theme, or just go to the post editing page by clicking "quote" instead of "reply" (open in new tab and paste from there if you want multiple quotes in a single post).


Title: Re: Idea for UQM
Post by: TBeholder on September 18, 2008, 10:27:25 pm
What if there was a ship editor for UQM? It could work like this:

-First, the player chooses a ship to work from or chooses to start from scratch.
-Next, the player adjusts the mass (size) of the ship as well as the length and width (allowing for longer, skinnier ships).
-After the size has been determined, the player is allowed to change the look of the ship.
-The player then decides how powerful the engine should be.
-Then the weapons are chosen (max 2; player chooses which is primary and which is secondary).
-Finally, special components are selected for the ship

As meep-eep already wrote — Master of Orion (http://www.spheriumnorth.com/orion-forum/nfphpbb/). Perhaps some mod, say «Ur-Quan Masters of Orion 2» ?..   ;D

IMHO, differences between variants already implemented in SC2 are so great that it would be impossible to set up any "universal game balance" via editor validator alone. And UQM in either Adventurre or Melee mode is not anywhere near some strategy with rapid R&D and visible ship design dynamics (like Ascendancy or MoO2) anyway. Therefore, such editor should be mod tool only, not in-game thing (then "balance" validators go into Mauler's furnace, balance is up to specific mod maker).
In either case a ship editor will not be part of UQM since they stated it many time that the goal if it is to recreate to almost original state the game. After, they will made it mod friendly but all mod will not be part of the UQM label.
Right, but there's still something wrong with “make content first, create instruments for making content later” idea.
From my previous gaming experience, tempering with new creation tend to make the game unfair.
Irrelevant. Perhaps most texts ever written are silly or nonsensical, but to draw a conclusion "thou shall not write text editors ever" would be a bit too much, right ?  ;)
The very first idea that come to my mind is that you will basically create ship that will be specific to destroy a particular ship with very ease...
I don't see anything "unfair" here. Only that it has nothing to do with SC2/UQM or anywhere in 100 ly radius around it. Mix of UQM / SC2 style scenario with Master of Orion (PC is Supreme Commander on flagship, and so on) is feasible, but strategy engine as advanced as MoO2 (with AI) in addition to Adventure and Melee engines of UQM obviously is too stretched idea.
Very basic resource management and building ships on Starbase (to make new SC1) and turning 1:1 Melee into full-blown fleet vs. fleet combat would be more realistic aim, though this does not waits for us just round the corner.


Title: Re: Idea for UQM
Post by: jaychant on September 19, 2008, 12:46:17 pm
I looked at Master of Orion, and it said it's a TBS. I also tried FreeOrion, but it was VERY confusing and boring. I think I'd rather stick to Warzone 2100.


Title: Re: Idea for UQM
Post by: Glory_device on September 19, 2008, 04:09:39 pm
try to find master of orion 2 it is t he best of the series...


Title: Re: Idea for UQM
Post by: AngusThermopyle on September 19, 2008, 05:42:39 pm
try to find master of orion 2 it is t he best of the series...

That is debatable. Sure, MoO2 has prettier graphics, but MoO1 has a few gameplay advantages over its successor. (Spying, larger battles, random tech tree every game, simpler production/colony management, etc...)



Title: Re: Idea for UQM
Post by: jaychant on September 22, 2008, 01:57:44 am
I repeat: I am NOT interested in Master of Orion. You can stop derailing the thread now.


Title: Re: Idea for UQM
Post by: Arne on September 22, 2008, 07:33:31 am
I've had a similar idea for a long time, but I suppose it's more viable now when you don't have to explain it to people, you can just say "you make stuff, like in Spore, except different!" and people will be much more receptive. That's how game pitches works. If something seems a bit alien and you need to explain it, it's an instant no-go.

For a game like SC, I'd use the Elite Frontier ship hull approach. You buy a hull and stuff it with stuff. This wouldn't work with the Arcade style gameplay in SC though, because you must be able to instantly see what you're up against so you can make a tactical response. But, SC was not about the melee for me, it was about the universe, so I wouldn't mind having customizable ships.

It's still a good idea being able to read a ship's capabilities from the exterior though. You could in Elite, the little antennas, fuel scopes, missiles etc. could be seen, and you'd know from the mass of a ship that it probably had a big laser and plenty of shields. I'd like to see battleships lined with turrets. Then the present SC ships would be something along the size of torpedo boats or destroyers. I guess I have a bit of a problem with the abstract nature of SC battles, because the universe is so... alive.

Seeing how almost all games today are geared towards accessibility over depth (a false dichotomy, imo ), I don't think TfB would depart much from the current Melee system. Departing might be quite risky and I'm sure the Melee system is an integral part of SC to many.

A less intrusive idea could be to add a flagship for each race. These are rare, and can be outfitted with various goodies pertaining to each species (which you can then loot form the derelicts), then the regular SC ships are identical 'grunts'.

Edit: Drew some haphazard ship designs on that note.
Edit: I guess this idea is for my own never ending project. I just like to rant.
(http://androidarts.com/starcontrol/sc_fleet.jpg)


Title: Re: Idea for UQM
Post by: Glory_device on September 22, 2008, 03:51:20 pm
Nice drawing!

But, before venturing in the let's add new things part...we should begin to make the first step... I think even before telling exactly what new feature we could add....We need to form a team to do it... I am not a real great programmer but I am learning...also I can draw a tad bit and do music...after that, we need to know what we want to add and the order. All option that we will add must be disabled quite easily

In my opinion:
-make multi star ship combat available with current sc2 star ship
-increase the discrete degree amount

Let's begin by doing those two thing ... and THEN we will talk about bigger things.

But, I am in!


Title: Re: Idea for UQM
Post by: Elvish Pillager on September 22, 2008, 11:28:34 pm
It would be possible to dissect the existing sprites and systematically put them together to represent the outfits of the ships.


Title: Re: Idea for UQM
Post by: Glory_device on September 22, 2008, 11:53:23 pm
some sort of comparative algorithm? Or more like pixel based drawing?


Title: Re: Idea for UQM
Post by: Arne on September 23, 2008, 04:45:03 am
I think he means to erase everything but the nacelles on the Cruiser for example, then you draw a couple of different versions of them, maybe using the ones in SC1 and SC2 (they're different). Then you do the same with the 'head' and 'body', etc. Now you can just draw several layers of stuff to complete the ship. Still a lot of work though with all the angles and mipmapping. Add programming and game balance, and the task seems... daunting.


Something which could be interesting is support for drawing (and colliding) 3D models. I'm not sure how separated the graphics drawing is from the game mechanics in UQM. It would be neat having a graphics engine as a module or something (taking arguments from the game mechanics engine). Might be a tricky task with the ship bitmap collisions and other stuff. I'm not much of a coder so I'm just ranting here.


Title: Re: Idea for UQM
Post by: Glory_device on September 24, 2008, 03:57:08 am
Okay, I think it is now time to check something up: who is up to make this project real, to make a STABLE and user friendly melee that could be used to play with multiple ship and introducing the less discrete turn system? Who would be ready to commit time to this project?

I am willing to...for the programming part I am not quite ready to venture in this world (still learning)

Tho I can work a lot with sound, and graphics (for drawing 2d sprite etc...) I will also help for discussion about the gaming principles!

So who is in?


Title: Re: Idea for UQM
Post by: Alvarin on September 24, 2008, 10:08:51 am
I would like to help .
My contribution can be pixel-drawing and, mainly, as a "flaw-finder" for various aspects (other than actual code).


Title: Re: Idea for UQM
Post by: Glory_device on September 24, 2008, 03:29:13 pm
Oh, by the way I forgot to mention: what mean of communication...sure there is the uqm forum but we don't want to load it up all the time...so the best thing would be either a mailing list or IRC just tell me your input about it!


Title: Re: Idea for UQM
Post by: Alvarin on September 24, 2008, 10:34:11 pm
I'd say both - for development - mailing list , for brainnstorming - IRC .


Title: Re: Idea for UQM
Post by: jaychant on September 25, 2008, 02:54:43 am
So who is in?

Me, but since I'm still in Visual Basic (learning Visual C++ next year, hopefully), there's not much coding I can do. But I'd bet if I knew my task, I could manage to write some code if I looked at something like a C tutorial, since I do know a little about how C works from my experience in Game Maker. Still, I would mostly only be able to write comments.


Title: Re: Idea for UQM
Post by: Glory_device on September 25, 2008, 06:26:58 am
So for now we would be three....still need a solid code monkey to help us ...But, at least we can begin brainstorming and setting up the basic (objective...what we want to do etc..)

so hum here is my e-mail

simon.marcoux@usherbrooke.ca

so hum that's it for the mailing list...

and for IRC channel witch one?


Title: Re: Idea for UQM
Post by: jaychant on September 25, 2008, 12:19:07 pm
We need a name for the project. I suggest calling the project Star Control Advance, for now, and we can come up with a real name later.


Title: Re: Idea for UQM
Post by: Alvarin on September 25, 2008, 08:56:10 pm
I'm "dwarfinblues(at)gmail(dot)com" .
I don't know about the name - calling it "advance" would be jinxing it from the get go . Let's first actually get somewhere and then we'll see how "advanced" it will get .


Title: Re: Idea for UQM
Post by: jaychant on September 25, 2008, 09:30:39 pm
Star Control Advance would just be a codename for the project, not the actual name of the game. And actually, more than 16 ship directions IS advanced for SC2.

How about this: I'll start a poll so we can vote on what the name should be. But it'll be a quick poll, because we don't want the name to be a big issue. Besides, we should all agree on the name.


Title: Re: Idea for UQM
Post by: Glory_device on September 26, 2008, 01:05:26 am
name isn't an issue here .... you could name it project X for all I care...having a name do not make a project ...working on it does...I think we should focus more on what is in rather than what is the name of the whole thing...

But this is just my opinon...But, from what I know... name in VG are not decided until a middle point. Because a name bear signification about the content of the game or at least part of it...so I say we wait

thank you Alvarin I will send you a E-mail to confirm that you are on the list... when more peole will join I will keep adding more to the pool!

That is all for the moment...gotta go back to my program documentation.. arf :(


Title: Re: Idea for UQM
Post by: jaychant on September 26, 2008, 03:01:49 am
We need some real support if we want this project to become a reality. Otherwise we will have a mountain of ideas and nothing actually getting done.

BTW you can add me to the mailing list.
jaychant@gmail.com

Perhaps we should move all this content to a new thread. It has little to do with the original topic, anyways.


Title: Re: Idea for UQM
Post by: Zeracles on September 26, 2008, 08:51:43 am
you could name it project X for all I care
Sorry, project X is already taken (http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~asmith/X/) ;)


Title: Re: Idea for UQM
Post by: Glory_device on September 26, 2008, 04:49:17 pm
X as a variable not as a name...I was more refering to the fact that name doesn't matter for the moment...but for protection ...we will change to project Y!


Title: Re: Idea for UQM
Post by: Alvarin on September 26, 2008, 08:25:26 pm
Quote
we will change to project Y!
Heh , I think that ought to be untaken . Thumbs up from me on that one :)


Title: Re: Idea for UQM
Post by: meep-eep on September 26, 2008, 08:54:53 pm
Now try saying it out loud. :)


Title: Re: Idea for UQM
Post by: jaychant on September 27, 2008, 04:57:16 am
Honestly, this content needs to be moved to a new thread. The original topic was my idea to make a ship editor, not this.

Also, is there anyone who would be willing to help?

I'll wait for a couple more days, but after that, I don't see the point in waiting anymore.

EDIT: I am officially abandoning the project. Besides, I am much more interested in my active project, Project Bowser.


Title: Re: Idea for UQM
Post by: Alvarin on October 15, 2008, 06:28:32 pm
Little update - we are now looking into ways of going forward - I have opted to make ship models of Fimo , having photographic rig with constant lighting and camera position , then rotate the model to needed angle relative to camera centerline .

Here is first shot at it . The model WILL be redone .
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v472/Alvarin/UQM/xform.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v472/Alvarin/UQM/consept.jpg)


If I'll be sometime bored , might go for making SC2 Melee ships in 3D , like in SC3 .
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v472/Alvarin/UQM/xform3d.jpg)

Anyways , so far my limited skills produced SC3 puppets equivalent of the ship .


Title: Re: Idea for UQM
Post by: Glory_device on October 15, 2008, 09:23:20 pm
For my part, as I said to Alvarin, I was quite busy with exam and didn't produce a whole ship. Only spent some time wroking on the technique to rotate and come up with something. Next week I am on a break so I will have time to at least produce one ship.

We will use both method so people will be able to choose in beetween the two model style. I personally like the option that clay can give us


Title: Re: Idea for UQM
Post by: Alvarin on October 23, 2008, 11:41:03 am
Seing the model making works , this is the first ship I will start making many angles from .

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v472/Alvarin/UQM/comparison.jpg)
Original scaled up , model scaled down .

I will have to somehow balance the colours , my model looks blue , even though it is painted black .

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v472/Alvarin/UQM/kohr-ah-1.png)


While looking for more pictures of the Kohr-Ah , I've stumbled onto SC3 variant and was
not really surprized , when figured that they are using it in reverse .
One more thing SC3 has done  backwards ...